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Thread: Why PDFs?!
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2024-02-03, 06:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Why PDFs?!
Been looking at getting another game system, I've been interested in trying out a new minimalist system.
They all come packaged as either a physical book (and I've lost too many of those over various moves and such already) or .PDF files.
PDF files are basically unreadable without an annoying amount of effort. I have to zoom them in and scroll them this way and that to read them. Whyyyy can we not get game systems in reflowable epub files? I can get my textbooks that way, I read all my books that way, augh..."We were once so close to heaven, Peter came out and gave us medals declaring us 'The nicest of the damned'.."
- They Might Be Giants, "Road Movie To Berlin"
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2024-02-03, 06:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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- Sweden
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Re: Why PDFs?!
It's just an industry standard. But I get your frustration, pdfs suck.
Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal
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2024-02-03, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Pittsburgh, PA
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Re: Why PDFs?!
Formatting, probably. You can print directly from a pdf because it's the exact page layout, but making an epub would mean an entirely separate round of layout and proofing.
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2024-02-03, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
Re: Why PDFs?!
Role-playing games tend to make more use of pictures and fancy formatting and I think pdfs are better at handling those.
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2024-02-03, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Grognardia
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Re: Why PDFs?!
As others have said, I would think the cost and time and effort of converting a rulebook to epub format would be very high. It would be a logistical nightmare trying to lay out the text and tables and charts in such a way that it would on all possible devices, with all possible settings. I read epubs on my phone, my Kobo, and my tablet. And that works because it's all just text.
Whereas PDF's all look roughly the same no matter the device or the application (both for weal and woe).
Although, that being said, I share your frustration with trying to read PDF's. I love using them as a supplement to the actual book, but on their own, they're a pain.(Avatar by Cuthalion, who is great.)
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2024-02-03, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- San Antonio, Texas
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Re: Why PDFs?!
The Cranky Gamer
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2024-02-03, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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Re: Why PDFs?!
i like pdf. never got into the various other formats, and don't understand what problems others have with it.
maybe i'm old generation and pdf is the one most behaving like a normal paper book?In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.
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2024-02-03, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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- Alaska
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Re: Why PDFs?!
I'm old generation. I need my text size a little bit larger these days. Epub is older than PDF, as I recall. It's closer to a readme file like I would read back when I was dealing with MS-DOS whatsits. My textbook has tables imbedded in it, they're saved as pictures.
I've been playing mostly things with an SRD I can access on the web for the past few years, but they sometimes overformat the base page."We were once so close to heaven, Peter came out and gave us medals declaring us 'The nicest of the damned'.."
- They Might Be Giants, "Road Movie To Berlin"
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2024-02-03, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
Re: Why PDFs?!
Tables saved as pictures? But then you can't find things in them with Ctrl+F!
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2024-02-03, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- San Antonio, Texas
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Re: Why PDFs?!
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2024-02-04, 12:13 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: Why PDFs?!
You and I have much, much different experiences with PDFs.
Every single one I have is highly readable and i have over 2 thousand. Maybe you just need a bigger screen? a screen that isn't borken?
Like i honestly have no idea what is going on that you find them un readable.. are you trying to open them not in a PDF reader like Adobe Acrobat, Sumatra, or Kofax?
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2024-02-04, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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- Alaska
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Re: Why PDFs?!
I have some luck at home... where I have a specifically portrait monitor. But I'm not gaming at home...
If I'm out and about, I have some sort of laptop. There's the title bar of the reader, then whatever toolbar is on the top, then the tools widget bar, and maybe another important bar or three... then the page... then whatever toolbars are on the bottom, and the bar on the bottom of Windows itself... half the screen is already gone because every imaginable specialty widget has to be put in horizontal bars on top or bottom of the reader. The text is organized in vertical bars, and I have to move my narrow window of viewable area around the page. If I zoom out enough to see a big block of text, the not monitor optimized font is pixelized and blurry.
It's exhausting."We were once so close to heaven, Peter came out and gave us medals declaring us 'The nicest of the damned'.."
- They Might Be Giants, "Road Movie To Berlin"
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2024-02-04, 01:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
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- Toledo, Ohio
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Re: Why PDFs?!
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2024-02-04, 06:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
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- In my library
Re: Why PDFs?!
Seconding this, and I even reverted to an older layout because an update changed the background colour to white. Still got at minimum two third of the screen, maybe three quarters, with most toolbars at the side.
Not that some games don't also have .epub or .mobi versions, IIRC Evil Hat does them for major releases. It's just less common, at least partially due to the loss of formatting.
But yes, PDFs are annoying when you have bad eyes. After glasses stopped working but before I moved to contacts I was almost entirely physical for that exact reason.Last edited by Anonymouswizard; 2024-02-04 at 06:08 AM.
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2024-02-04, 06:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-04, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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- Dallas, TX
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Re: Why PDFs?!
Take the pdf to a print shop, and come home with a booklet.
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2024-02-04, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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- In my library
Re: Why PDFs?!
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2024-02-04, 08:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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- United States
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2024-02-04, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Newcastle, Australia
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Re: Why PDFs?!
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2024-02-05, 02:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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- Alaska
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Re: Why PDFs?!
"We were once so close to heaven, Peter came out and gave us medals declaring us 'The nicest of the damned'.."
- They Might Be Giants, "Road Movie To Berlin"
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2024-02-05, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2012
- Location
- Vacation in Nyalotha
Re: Why PDFs?!
Most web browsers have built in functionality for viewing PDFs. At a glance even the accused Edge has minimal bloat by default and offers a full screen view bereft of toolbars.
If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?
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2024-02-05, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Location
- Wyoming
Re: Why PDFs?!
Because they are cheap and easy to produce, and ubiquitous enough where everyone has the software to read them.
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2024-02-05, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
Re: Why PDFs?!
Have you tried running Magnifier in lens view? I played around with it a bit after reading this, and it seems pretty workable. The other view modes just seem annoying though.
Edit: If you're not familiar, hold the Windows key and press the + key to turn Magnifier on. Hold both Ctrl and Alt and press the L key to change to lens mode. Hold the Windows key and press Esc to turn Magnifier off.Last edited by Maat Mons; 2024-02-05 at 04:15 PM.
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2024-02-05, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: Why PDFs?!
So, it sounds less of a "PDF" issue and more of user issue with the user having every conceivable window and toolbar open as possible.
Sounds like my friend, years, ago that was compkaong about a FPSish we played and how he couldn't see what was happening due to the UI, being in the way.. he had every ability bar open, every separate chat box open, both maps open, and a few other random screens that took up 3/4 of the screen. A simple un selecting those windows fixed his complaints.
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2024-02-09, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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- In my own little world...
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Re: Why PDFs?!
I read mine on a tablet or my phone through Acrobat. I can zoom in ridiculously close, up to one letter filling the screen, and easily navigate the entire pdf...
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2024-02-09, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why PDFs?!
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2024-02-12, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: Why PDFs?!
Play with the toolbar settings and you can remove most of them. And there are options for viewing the width of the page or the whole page that can make it easier.
I always buy hard copies of the main rulebooks of systems because I find the hardcopy books easier to deal with while running a game, but I find that running an adventure from a .pdf on a laptop isn't all that tough and is generally cheaper than buying hardcopies, though I still print off maps and the like for quick reference.
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2024-02-12, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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- Alaska
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Re: Why PDFs?!
I was reading a game on a PDF yesterday in fullscreen on a laptop. It still was miserable, I wanted to tweak the font.
"We were once so close to heaven, Peter came out and gave us medals declaring us 'The nicest of the damned'.."
- They Might Be Giants, "Road Movie To Berlin"
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2024-02-12, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
- Location
- Davis, California
- Gender
Re: Why PDFs?!
Its a different standard. Textbooks are used by public universities so they have to follow the ADA. They have to come up with versions that are more accessible to blind students. Additionally textbooks cost $300+. An epub is possible for RPGs, but it's not worth the expense since it's not legally required.
I agree that pdfs are a pain to read on my pocket Kindle. But it's got a tiny 3"x5" screen that's not as responsive as other modern tech. Every other device, even my smaller smartphone, is easy to read pdfs because I can zoom in and out as needed or change the viewing frame by turning my phone sideways.
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2024-02-13, 04:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
Re: Why PDFs?!
I believe, technically, you cannot use two copies at once.
So you can (and I have) photocopy an entire book to mark it with highlighter and rearrange the pages and put the original in storage. But if you sell your original you either give your copy to the buyer or destroy it.
Which works fine for me: I generally print the PDF once and use the printed copy, while the electronic copy is stored.
But in the "everything's legal if there's no cops around" vein passing a few pages around to folks at the same table probably isn't going to get the attention of the owners of the copyright you are infringing and probably won't offend them even if they find out. But know that defending their copyright might mean that they have to sue you even if they aren't mad about what you did.