Comparing player level and monster level

[Alexander Atoz]

This is something that I've been contemplating a while, and I want to see what other people think.

I've been trying to work out the relationship between monster level and player level. My inclination is that a PC's level is equivalent to approx. half the current monster's level, in XP.
That wasn't clear at all, so let's give examples.
A CR 6 monster is worth 2,300 XP. Based on my theory, a level six PC should be worth half that, or 1,150 XP, and be approx. equal to a CR 4 monster. (CR 4 = 11,000 XP). Similarly, a level 9 monster is worth 5,000 XP, so if my rule holds true a level 9 PC is equal to (or a bit stronger than) a level 6 monster. (5,000/2 = 2,500. CR 6 = 2,300).
Obviously, I'm talking about an ordinary build. If someone used multiclassing to build something incredibly strong or weak, that will throw off this rating. Also, in a fight it is often the case that a specific monster happens too be optimized against any one specific PC, or vice versa. Terrain, surprise, and everything else can also throw stuff off.
I will also mention that my rule isn't meant to include CR's above 20, as the XP there gets kind of crazy. (According strictly to the XP, a tarrasque should be equal to six CR 20 monsters, or to four if he fights them at once and you add the multiplier for groups. I really don't think that is the case. My best guess for monsters above CR 20 is that you should halve all XP above 20, at which point the tarrasque would be worth 85,000 XP. That sounds about right, but all this is another story.)

[Unoriginal]

This is something that I've been contemplating a while, and I want to see what other people think.

I've been trying to work out the relationship between monster level and player level. My inclination is that a PC's level is equivalent to approx. half the current monster's level, in XP.
That wasn't clear at all, so let's give examples.
A CR 6 monster is worth 2,300 XP. Based on my theory, a level six PC should be worth half that, or 1,150 XP, and be approx. equal to a CR 4 monster. (CR 4 = 11,000 XP). Similarly, a level 9 monster is worth 5,000 XP, so if my rule holds true a level 9 PC is equal to (or a bit stronger than) a level 6 monster. (5,000/2 = 2,500. CR 6 = 2,300).
Obviously, I'm talking about an ordinary build. If someone used multiclassing to build something incredibly strong or weak, that will throw off this rating. Also, in a fight it is often the case that a specific monster happens too be optimized against any one specific PC, or vice versa. Terrain, surprise, and everything else can also throw stuff off.
I will also mention that my rule isn't meant to include CR's above 20, as the XP there gets kind of crazy. (According strictly to the XP, a tarrasque should be equal to six CR 20 monsters, or to four if he fights them at once and you add the multiplier for groups. I really don't think that is the case. My best guess for monsters above CR 20 is that you should halve all XP above 20, at which point the tarrasque would be worth 85,000 XP. That sounds about right, but all this is another story.)

Your title is confusing, because "monster level" and "monster CR" means different things.

Now, to answer your question, it's been long established (by comparing many examples) that a PC level is equivalent to between 1/5 and 1/2 of a CR (because there is a spectrum of power in each CR), with 1/4 being very common.

PCs generally have a larger toolbox and quite often a better stat array too, but most NPCs can endure better.

So a CR 1/4 NPC is about as tough as a lvl 1 PC.

XPs have no bearing in any of this.

[Alexander Atoz]

There is no way in the world that a CR 1 monster is a match for a level 4 PC. (Or any other division of 4.)
I'm not after the official equivalent (which I didn't know existed), I'm trying to define what is actually equilvalent.
(As an aside, what is monster level?)

[Unoriginal]

There is no way in the world that a CR 1 monster is a match for a level 4 PC.

Provide the stats for a lvl 4 PC, and we shall see.

(Or any other division of 4.)

Your hyperbole is noted.

I'm not after the official equivalent (which I didn't know existed), I'm trying to define what is actually equilvalent.

There is no "official equivalent". This is the actual equivalent, as calculated by the 5e community.

(As an aside, what is monster level?)

When you give class levels to a monster. Like the Gnoll Barbarian example in the DMG.

EDIT:

If anyone else wishes to propose a 4th lvl character for comparison, you're welcome to do so.

[Alexander Atoz]

CR 1 Bugbear (chosen for being a humanoid) + 4 to hit, 11 damage, 16 AC, 27 HP. (+ 7 damage on a suprise attack, but only once a battle.)
Fighter, level 4. (Chosen for simplicity.) + 6 to hit, 29 HP with + 1 CON (which is low.) With a shield, he has at least 17 AC, and does 9.5 damage. Without a shield, he has 15 AC, and does 11 damage. Note that I'm counting his DEX modifier as 0, which is unlikely.
He's already ahead of the bugbear in 2-3 areas, and behind in at most 1. I haven't even added in fighting style, second wind, action surge, and subclass abilities. All of them are very significant, except second wind. Why do you think the bugbear is equal to him?

The bugbear chieftain is CR 3, which meant that by your calculation he is equal to a level 12 fighter. (Or other PC). Calculation will show that it's even worse.
CR 3 Bugbear chieftain. +5 To hit, 12 damage, 2 attacks, 17 AC, 65 HP. (+ 7 damage on a surprise attack, but only once a battle.)
Fighter, level 12. + 9 to hit, 70 HP with no CON bonus. With shield, 20 AC, 9.5 damage, 3 attacks. Without shield, 18 AC, 11 damage, 3 Attacks. Leaving out the same things as last time, plus feats. Subclass abilities are even more relevant now. Again, Why do you think the bugbear (chieftain) is equal to him?

More basically, if a CR 3 is equal to a level 12 PC, than 4 CR 3 monsters should have an even chance of defeating a four player level 12 party. Do you really think so? I think the level 12 party will destroy them in 1-2 rounds, and won't consider them worth spending high level spell slots or other limited-use abilities on.

Edit: It just crossed my mind, your figure probably came because a CR of the party level is supposed to be a fight for the entire, 4-person, party. Therefore, it would make sense that each party member is worth a forth of the CR.
If this is the logic, it overlooks the fact that it's supposed to be an easy-medium fight. D&D expects the party to be capable of 8 such fights a day.

[JayDomK]

Edit: It just crossed my mind, your figure probably came because a CR of the party level is supposed to be a fight for the entire, 4-person, party. Therefore, it would make sense that each party member is worth a forth of the CR.
If this is the logic, it overlooks the fact that it's supposed to be an easy-medium fight. D&D expects the party to be capable of 8 such fights a day.

In that case, all groups would have to be 4 persons each, and that wouldn't be very convenient, would it?

[Derges]

a PC level is equivalent to between 1/5 and 1/2 of a CR (because there is a spectrum of power in each CR), with 1/4 being very common.

He quite clearly said between 1/2 and 1/5 with 1/4 being common.

I don't think those numbers are so far out to say the entire range is wrong, more that the bugbear isn't average.

The bugbear is an ambush monster by design. It's supposed to drop 18 damage on a target in the surprise round. That's more than half the fighters' HP and very close to dropping most other classes.

[Unoriginal]

CR 1 Bugbear (chosen for being a humanoid) + 4 to hit, 11 damage, 16 AC, 27 HP. (+ 7 damage on a suprise attack, but only once a battle.)
Fighter, level 4. (Chosen for simplicity.) + 6 to hit, 29 HP with + 1 CON (which is low.) With a shield, he has at least 17 AC, and does 9.5 damage. Without a shield, he has 15 AC, and does 11 damage. Note that I'm counting his DEX modifier as 0, which is unlikely.
He's already ahead of the bugbear in 2-3 areas, and behind in at most 1. I haven't even added in fighting style, second wind, action surge, and subclass abilities. All of them are very significant, except second wind. Why do you think the bugbear is equal to him?

1) As noted by Derges, the claim was never that all CR 1 monsters were equal in every way to all lvl 4 PCs.

The claim is that, and I quote, a PC level is "equivalent to between 1/5 and 1/2 of a CR (because there is a spectrum of power in each CR), with 1/4 being very common."

Meaning that the Bugbear as presented fits the claim.

2) Fighters are masters at straightforward fighting, while Bugbears, also as noted by Derges, prefer to attack from stealth and aren't as tough in an open brawl, even if they can still contribute.

Now compare the Bugbear to a lvl 4 Rogue, assuming they started at 16 DEX and used their ASI for DEX too:

To hit +6, 8.5 average damage without Sneak Attack and 14.5 with = 11.5 average damage, AC 16, HP 27 (if CON +1, like your Fighter).

Chances to hit aside, the two are fairly equivalent, before the Rogue's subclass gets factored in.

3) Now let's compare the Figher to a NPC who similarly shines best in a straightforward combat, limiting ourselves to humanoid only, even:

Lizardfolk Scaleshield:

To hit +4 with two attacks, 6 damage on the first and 5 damage on the second, AC 16 and HPs 32.

Which is pretty equivalent to the Fighter you presented, even if not equal in every way.

4) Having 18 in your main stat at lvl 4 is certainly possible, but it isn't an universal expectation either. Plenty of PCs prefer taking feats, for example, or boost another ability score.

5) Using the "average damage" in the monster statblock is meant to advantage the PCs fighting them, as the 2d8+2 of a Bugbear's Morningstar could easily put a lvl 1 PC from full health to death saves, with a bit of bad luck.



I was incorrect on one thing, though: monsters tend to have less health, compared to PCs whose levels are 4 times their CR.

The bugbear chieftain is CR 3, which meant that by your calculation he is equal to a level 12 fighter. (Or other PC). Calculation will show that it's even worse.
CR 3 Bugbear chieftain. +5 To hit, 12 damage, 2 attacks, 17 AC, 65 HP. (+ 7 damage on a surprise attack, but only once a battle.)
Fighter, level 12. + 9 to hit, 70 HP with no CON bonus. With shield, 20 AC, 9.5 damage, 3 attacks. Without shield, 18 AC, 11 damage, 3 Attacks. Leaving out the same things as last time, plus feats. Subclass abilities are even more relevant now.

Rogue, level 12. +9 to hit, 9.5 average damage without Sneak Attack and 30.5 with = 20 average damage, one attack. AC 17, 63 HP with no CON bonus.

More basically, if a CR 3 is equal to a level 12 PC, than 4 CR 3 monsters should have an even chance of defeating a four player level 12 party. Do you really think so?

No, but it's because because group vs group affects the conditions pretty significantly, and PCs have a bunch of advantages over NPCs usually (ex: death saves vs instant death)

Edit: It just crossed my mind, your figure probably came because a CR of the party level is supposed to be a fight for the entire, 4-person, party. Therefore, it would make sense that each party member is worth a forth of the CR.
If this is the logic, it overlooks the fact that it's supposed to be an easy-medium fight. D&D expects the party to be capable of 8 such fights a day.

That is not the logic, no.


Check the DMG, more precisely the "Creating a Monster" section of the Dungeon Master's Workshop chapter:

Offensive Challenge Rating. Read down the Damage/Round column of the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating table until you find your monster's damage output per round. Then look across and note the challenge rating suggested for a monster that deals that much damage.

Now look at the attack bonus suggested for a monster of that challenge rating. If your monster's attack bonus is at least two points higher or lower than that number, adjust the challenge rating suggested by its damage output up or down by 1 for every 2 points of difference.

The Fighter you proposed deals between 9.5 and 11 damage, aka damage fit for a CR 1 monster. Their to-hit is +6, or 3 points above the suggested to-hit, meaning they end up with Offensive CR 2.

Defensive Challenge Rating. Read down the Hit Points column of the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating table until you find your monster's hit points. Then look across and note the challenge rating suggested for a monster with those hit points.

Now look at the Armor Class suggested for a monster of that challenge rating. If your monster's AC is at least two points higher or lower than that number, adjust the challenge rating suggested by its hit points up or down by 1 for every 2 points of difference.

Your Fighter has 29 HP, placing them in CR 1/8. The suggested AC for that CR is 13, meaning that there is 4 points of difference between the Fighter and the suggestion, so they end up with Defensive CR 1/2.

Average Challenge Rating. The monster's final challenge rating is the average of its defensive and offensive challenge ratings. Round the average up or down to the nearest challenge rating to determine your monster's final challenge rating. For example, if the creature's defensive challenge rating is 2 and its offensive rating is 3, its final rating is 3.

(3+0.5)2= 1.75 = CR 2 for 4 lvl, which fits within the claim "between 1/5 and 1/2 of a CR".

[Amechra]

I mean, the problem with trying to draw a comparison this way is that monsters and PCs are designed in very different ways. Monsters are designed to have low effective damage (so either they're accurate but their attacks are a light tickle, or they hit hard but are pretty inaccurate) and AC, but make up for it with a ton of HP. On the flip side, PCs are designed to have high effective damage and great AC, but comparatively little HP.

Also... a 5th level S&B Fighter with Str 18 and Con 14 might math out to being a CR 3 creature by raw numbers, but if we add the healing from Second Wind on top of its HP it comes out as being CR 4, and that's ignoring any further bonuses from subclasses (for example, a 5th level Eldritch Knight is going to effectively be a CR 5 because they'll be able to spam Shield)

[Unoriginal]

In that case, all groups would have to be 4 persons each, and that wouldn't be very convenient, would it?

OP is correct that CR X = a Medium encounter for a group of 4 lvl X PC, and an Easy encounter for a group of 5. However, that's because the 5e mechanics gives a lot of perks to the side with the higher number of combatants.

Monsters are designed to have low effective damage (so either they're accurate but their attacks are a light tickle, or they hit hard but are pretty inaccurate) and AC, but make up for it with a ton of HP. On the flip side, PCs are designed to have high effective damage and great AC, but comparatively little HP.

True when one compare a PC of lvl X with a creature of CR X. Because as mentioned above CR X means being able to face a group of lvl X and still be able to show their stuff a bit.

Also... a 5th level S&B Fighter with Str 18 and Con 14 might math out to being a CR 3 creature by raw numbers, but if we add the healing from Second Wind on top of its HP it comes out as being CR 4, and that's ignoring any further bonuses from subclasses (for example, a 5th level Eldritch Knight is going to effectively be a CR 5 because they'll be able to spam Shield)

That is inaccurate.

A lvl 5 Fighter with 14 CON will have 44 HPs if they don't roll the die, with Second Wind adding 10.5 HP on average.

Even 44 HPs is low for the expected HPs of a CR 3 creature, to say nothing of a CR4 or CR 5 one. 54.5 HPs is about the kind of HPs you can see in the CR 3 range (ex: a Knight NPC has 52), but still far from the CR 5 range (ex: the Gladiator has 112 HPs).

Even the Eldritch Knight's impressive max AC wouldn't close that gap.

[GeneralVryth]

I think it goes without saying that any PC Level to CR conversion is going to be fuzzy at best because of the wide variation in optimization for both PCs and monsters for a given level/CR.

I think the real question in this thread is whether the relationship between PC Level and CR more is multiplicative (the 1/5 to 1/2 PC level conversion mentioned above) or more additive by CR steps (which I think is how the OP would work out if you removed exp from the equation). In the additive process it's best to think in CR steps at the low level. For example I would guess that a PC's CR may be closer to PC level = CR minus 3 to 5 steps. So for example a level 3 PC would probably have a CR between 1/2 and 1/8 (1/2 is 3 steps below CR 3, while 1/8 is 5 steps below CR 3).

The difference would be mostly visible at very high PC levels. Is a level 18 PC with all of their abilities (and gear) closer to CR 9 (or CR 4 if you use 1/5 instead of 1/2) or CR 13 to 15? I don't know, and I don't have time atm to do the math (I may check back later and do it then), but it is an interesting thought.

[Amechra]

That is inaccurate.

I mean, I was literally just reporting the CR numbers I got when I punched the 5th level Fighter's AC, HP (+ the ~10.5 healing the Second Wind), damage, and to-hit chance into this calculator...

(Here it is with the AC 24 that you'd get from a shield + scale + Shield.)

[Unoriginal]

I mean, I was literally just reporting the CR numbers I got when I punched the 5th level Fighter's AC, HP (+ the ~10.5 healing the Second Wind), damage, and to-hit chance into this calculator...

(Here it is with the AC 24 that you'd get from a shield + scale + Shield.)

How does a lvl 5 Eldritch Knight inflict 21 damage average with a one-handed weapon? Using a longsword with +4 from STR, you're looking at 8.5 per hit, so 17 damage with the two attacks.

Also worth noting CR calculations treat "has X HP but can heal Y amount" as different from "Has X+Y HPs". It's because healing requires the being to take time in their turn to activate it, and it's possible they don't get the chance (ex: if the PCs' damage would kill the creature before they can heal).

Also also worth noting that a lvl 5 Eldritch Knight can cast precisely 3 Shields before needing a rest, assuming they cast no other spell above cantrips, and having your Reaction/being able to use it isn't guaranteed either (which is why monsters with Parry abilities don't have it counted in their normal AC).

EDIT:

I admit that my "between 1/5 and 1/2" claim isn't perfect, given that CR 3 is 1/1.66 of lvl 5. So yes, a PC that is optimized in the domains CR calculation cares about can push because the 1/2 mark.


Having 3 rounds of requiring 17+ to hit assuming their foes is as good a weapon user as them, but with a poor DEX save, such an EK would make for an interesting puzzle boss, who may terrify some players.

Especially if the EK plays up the "you can't hurt me" angle to bluff they can only Shield three times.

[JayDomK]

OP is correct that CR X = a Medium encounter for a group of 4 lvl X PC, and an Easy encounter for a group of 5. However, that's because the 5e mechanics gives a lot of perks to the side with the higher number of combatants.

On the other hand that's not a bad thing. Five combatants is a company that can overcome more difficulties than four.

[JayDomK]

Especially if the EK plays up the "you can't hurt me" angle to bluff they can only Shield three times.

Is there any way to know if EK is bluffing or not? Maybe indirectly?

[GeneralVryth]

To continue on my point from earlier. Let's use an archery focused Battlemaster Fighter.

Level 18, 18 Dex, 14 Con, +1 weapon, and +1 armor (likely a vast underestimate for a PC but maybe reasonable for an NPC built using PC classes)

Assuming they took the Archery Fighting Style and Sharpshooter along the way we can game out:

Elven Blade
Medium humanoid (High Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 18 (+1 Half Plate)
Hit Points 135 (18d10 + 36)
Speed 30 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 18 (+4) CON 14 (+2)
INT 10 (+0) WIS 12 (+1) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Str +6, Con +8
Skills Perception +7
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 17
Languages Common, Elvish
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Action Surge (2/Short): Preform one extra action this turn.
Precision Attack (6/Short): Add 1d12 to an attack that misses.
ACTIONS
Multiattack. The Blade makes three attacks.
Rapier. Melee Weapon Attack: +10 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) piercing damage.
+1 Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +8*,**/+13* to hit, ranged 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 19**/9 (1d8 + 5) piercing damage. *Archery, **Sharpshooter
BONUS
Misty Step. (1/Short) The Blade teleports 30 feet to an unoccupied space they can see.
Second Wind. (1/Short) The Blade heals 1d10+ 18 HP.

Defensive CR: 6 Base (second wind should just add to HP like regeneration), +1.5 from AC: 7.5

Average Damage (using Sharpshooter for all offensive CR calculations): 57 per action, 95 per round assuming all Action Surges are used and the standard 3 round damage check.

Average Attack: 8 + ~1d12/2 gives +11

Offensive CR 15 Base + 1.5 from Attack: 16.5

Total CR: 12

It's further off from additive approach I mention earlier but not by that much, meanwhile that's a 2/3rd PC Level to CR conversion ratio without really being a full PC (though close) with all the fixings. It could easily get another +1 to CR from more appropriate gear. I think there is something to the idea that relationship between PC level and CR is more additive than multiplicative. But that would also require a lot more examples to really nail down.

[Unoriginal]

Defensive CR: 6 Base (second wind should just add to HP like regeneration), +1.5 from AC: 7.5

Regeneration isn't just adding to the HP, though.

It could easily get another +1 to CR from more appropriate gear.

I mean, adding magic items to a monster stat block is going to affect the CR too. The Warlord NPC would be higher CR with a +3 armor and a Flame Tongue sword.

Total CR: 12

It's further off from additive approach I mention earlier but not by that much, meanwhile that's a 2/3rd PC Level to CR conversion ratio without really being a full PC (though close) with all the fixings.

I admit I was wrong, I had forgotten that the ratio changed for characters changed at both ends of the level scale (ex: the aforementioned Warlord compared to a lvl 18 Fighter).

Allow me to amend the claim:

At low level, a PC level is generally equivalent to between 1/5 and 1/2 of a CR, with 1/4 to 1/2 being the common range. At high level, a PC level is generally equivalent to between 1/4 and 3/4 of a CR, with 1/2 to 2/3 being the common range.

I think there is something to the idea that relationship between PC level and CR is more additive than multiplicative. But that would also require a lot more examples to really nail down.

I'm confused, you just said that the numbers were off for the additive relationship you mentioned earlier.

Why would the additive relationship be more likely?

EDIT:

The truth is that the actual relationship between CR and lvl is neither additive nor multiplicative.

Level affects HP total, to-hit chances, damage output, saves, and to a certain extent AC, and a lot of other things. CR is calculated based on HP total, to-hit chances, damage output, saves, and AC, with other things having a much smaller impact.


In consequence of how CR is calculated, one character level can be estimated as not being equal to a full CR, but a certain fraction of it.

(Which is the main reason why spells and abilities that let one transform a PC into a creature whose CR is equal to their level are so notoriously powerful).

[GeneralVryth]

First off, I am not actually trying to prove anyone right or wrong. I just think the idea is interesting.

Regeneration isn't just adding to the HP, though.

True but it's the only healing example I noticed when looking at the DMG CR calculation rules. And really even if said that is only worth half the value it doesn't change the outcome, but in this case I think full value makes sense as there are no other uses for the bonus action for the statblock so it will get used as soon as damage is taken.

I mean, adding magic items to a monster stat block is going to affect the CR too. The Warlord NPC would be higher CR with a +3 armor and a Flame Tongue sword.

True which is why I only put what I would call an NPC level of stuff in the statblock. But if the question is about guesstimating PC CRs items are going to make a 1 to maybe 3 CR difference.

I admit I was wrong, I had forgotten that the ratio changed for characters changed at both ends of the level scale (ex: the aforementioned Warlord compared to a lvl 18 Fighter).

Allow me to amend the claim:

At low level, a PC level is generally equivalent to between 1/5 and 1/2 of a CR, with 1/4 to 1/2 being the common range. At high level, a PC level is generally equivalent to between 1/4 and 3/4 of a CR, with 1/2 to 2/3 being the common range.

I'm confused, you just said that the numbers were off for the additive relationship you mentioned earlier.

Why would the additive relationship be more likely?

EDIT:

The truth is that the actual relationship between CR and lvl is neither additive nor multiplicative.

Level affects HP total, to-hit chances, damage output, saves, and to a certain extent AC, and a lot of other things. CR is calculated based on HP total, to-hit chances, damage output, saves, and AC, with other things having a much smaller impact.


In consequence of how CR is calculated, one character level can be estimated as not being equal to a full CR, but a certain fraction of it.

(Which is the main reason why spells and abilities that let one transform a PC into a creature whose CR is equal to their level are so notoriously powerful).

An additive relationship is:
CR = PC Level - X

A multiplicative one is:
CR = PC Level * X

At least that is what I meant when I was trying to describe the relationship types above. The fact your fractions change with level range in the way they do actually points to a more additive relationship as well. When I was said I may be off that was because I predicted X in the additive relationship to be in the 3 to 5 range and my example turned out to be 6.

Just for the sake of some more data here is some statblocks I worked up awhile back to give me some more NPC options to fill out my game world and because I didn't like the MM way of doing NPCs. The important thing is they are all built more like PCs (though with NPC stat blocks) and just simplifying (and occasionally balancing) the abilities that end up in the stat blocks.

Spoiler: Spoiler to minimize large text blob

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Elven Blade
Medium humanoid (High Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 17 (Chain Shirt, shield)
Hit Points 19 (3d10 + 3)
Speed 30 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 14 (+2) CON 12 (+1)
INT 10 (+0) WIS 12 (+1) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Str +2, Con +3
Skills Perception +3
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 1/2 (100 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
ACTIONS
Elfsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4*) slashing damage. *Dueling
Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, ranged 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d8 + 2) piercing damage.
BONUS
Misty Step. (1/Short) The apprentice teleports 30 feet to an unoccupied space they can see.

Elven Scout
Medium humanoid (Wood Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 15 (Studded Leather)
Hit Points 26 (4d10 + 4)
Speed 35 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 16 (+3) CON 12 (+1)
INT 10 (+0) WIS 12 (+1) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Str +2, Dex +5
Skills Perception +3, Stealth +5
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 1 (200 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
ACTIONS
Shortsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d6 + 3) slashing damage.
Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, ranged 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d8 + 3) piercing damage.
BONUS
Shortsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d6 + 3) slashing damage.
Hunter's Mark. Designate a target you can see within 90 ft. You deal an additional 3 (1d6) damage with your weapon attacks against it this turn.


Elven Apprentice Warmage
Medium humanoid (High Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 17 (Mage Armor, Bladesong)
Hit Points 22 (4d6 + 8 Tough)
Speed 40 ft. (Bladesong)
STR 10 (+0) DEX 14 (+2) CON 10 (+0)
INT 14 (+2) WIS 10 (+0) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Int +4, Wis +2
Skills Arcana +4, Perception +2
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 12
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 1 (200 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Bladesong. The Warmage moves 10 ft. faster, has advantage on Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks, and adds his intelligence modifier to his AC and Constitution saving throws for concentration.
Spellcasting. The Apprentice is a 4th-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 12, +4 to hit with spell attacks). The Apprentice has following wizard spells prepared: Cantrips (at will): Booming Blade, Mending, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost
1st level (1 slot left): Ice Knife, Mage Armor*, Shield, Sleep
2nd level (1 slot left): Blur, Hold Person, Shatter
*Assumed to already be cast in most encounters.
ACTIONS
Elfsword (Booming Blade). Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d8 + 2) slashing damage and 4 (1d8) thunder damage if target moves before your next turn.
Ray of Frost. Ranged Spell Attack: +5 to hit, ranged 120 ft., one target. Hit: 4 (1d8) cold damage and speed reduced by -10 feet.
BONUS
Misty Step. (1/Short) The apprentice teleports 30 feet to an unoccupied space they can see.






















Elven Guardian
Medium humanoid (Wood Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 16 (Unarmored Defense)
Hit Points 33 (6d8 + 6)
Speed 50 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 18 (+4) CON 12 (+1)
INT 10 (+0) WIS 14 (+2) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Str +3, Dex +7
Skills Perception +5, Stealth +7
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 15
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 3 (700 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
ACTIONS
Multiattack. The Guardian makes two attacks.
Staff. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) bludgeoning damage.
Shortsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) piercing damage.
Unarmed. Melee Unarmed Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) bludgeoning damage.
Dart. Ranged Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, ranged 20/60 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) piercing damage.
BONUS
Flurry of Blows. The Guardian makes two unarmed attacks. When a creature is hit with one of these attacks choose from the following:
- It must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw (DC 13) or be knocked prone.
- It must make a Strength saving throw (DC 13). If it fails, you can push it up to 15 feet away from you.
- It can’t take reactions until the end of your next turn.
Patient Defense. The Guardian takes the Dodge action.
Step of the Wind. The Guardian takes the Disengage or Dash action. The Guardian’s jump distance is doubled for the turn.
REACTIONS
Deflect Missiles. The Guardian can deflect or catch a missile when hit by a ranged attack. Reduce the damage 15 (1d10 + 10).










Elven Watcher
Medium humanoid (Wood Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 16 (Studded Leather)
Hit Points 52 (8d10 + 8)
Speed 45 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 18 (+4) CON 12 (+1)
INT 10 (+0) WIS 14 (+2) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Str +3, Dex +7, Wis +5
Skills Perception +5, Stealth +17 (Pass Without Trace)
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 15
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 4 (1,100 XP)
Colossus Slayer. (1/Turn) When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, the creature takes an extra 4 (1d8) damage if it’s below its hit point maximum.
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
Mobile. When the Watcher makes a melee attack against a creature, it doesn't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether it hits or not.
ACTIONS
Multiattack. The Watcher makes two attacks with the Shortsword or Longbow.
Shortsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) slashing damage.
Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, ranged 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) piercing damage.
BONUS
Shortsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) slashing damage.
Hunter's Mark. Designate a target you can see within 90 ft. You deal an additional 3 (1d6) damage with your weapon attacks against it this turn.
Fleet of Foot. The Watcher takes the Dash action and difficult terrain doesn’t cost it extra movement.














Elven Eldritch Knight
Medium humanoid (High Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 19 (Half-Plate, Shield)
Hit Points 68 (8d10 + 8 + 16 Tough)
Speed 30 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 18 (+4) CON 12 (+1)
INT 14 (+2) WIS 10 (+0) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Con +4, Str +3
Skills Perception +3
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 4 (1,100 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Warcaster. The Eldritch Knight has advantage on Constitution saving throws for concentration, can perform the somatic actions of spells while wielding a weapon and shield, and can make opportunity attacks using Booming Blade.
Spellcasting. The Eldritch Knight is a 3rd-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 13, +5 to hit with spell attacks). The Eldritch Knight has following wizard spells prepared:
Cantrips (at will): Booming Blade, Mending
1st level (1 slot left): Absorb Elements, Burning Hands, Prot. from Evil/Good, Shield
2nd level (1 slot left): Mirror Image, Shatter
ACTIONS
Multiattack. The Eldritch Knight makes two attacks with the Elfsword or Longbow.
Elfsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 10 (1d8 + 6*) slashing damage. *Dueling
Booming Blade. The Warmage makes an attack with the Elfsword and adds 4 (1d8) thunder damage if he hits and 9 (2d8) thunder damage if target moves before your next turn.
Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, ranged 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) piercing damage.
BONUS
War Magic. If the Eldritch Knight uses Booming Blade he can make one attack with his Elfsword.
Misty Step. (1/Short) The apprentice teleports 30 feet to an unoccupied space they can see.















Elven Warmage
Medium humanoid (High Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 19 (Mage Armor, Bladesong)
Hit Points 52 (8d6 + 8 + 16 Tough)
Speed 40 ft. (Bladesong)
STR 10 (+0) DEX 16 (+3) CON 12 (+1)
INT 16 (+3) WIS 10 (+0) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Int +6, Wis +3
Skills Arcana +6, Perception +3
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 5 (1,800 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Bladesong. The Warmage moves 10 ft. faster, has advantage on Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks, and adds his intelligence modifier to his AC and Constitution saving throws for concentration.
Spellcasting. The Warmage is an 8th-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 14, +6 to hit with spell attacks). The Warmage has following wizard spells prepared:
Cantrips (at will): Booming Blade, Mending, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost
1st level (1 slot left): Absorb Elements, Mage Armor*, Shield, Sleep
2nd level (1 slot left): Hold Person, Shatter
3rd level (1 slot left): Counterspell, Fireball, Fly
4th level (1 slot left): Arcane Eye, Dimension Door
*Assumed to already be cast in most encounters.
ACTIONS
Multiattack. The Warmage makes two attacks with the Elfsword.
Elfsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d8 + 3) slashing damage.
Booming Blade. The Warmage makes an attack with the Elfsword and adds 4 (1d8) thunder damage if he hits and 9 (2d8) thunder damage if target moves before your next turn.
Ray of Frost. Ranged Spell Attack: +6 to hit, ranged 120 ft., one target. Hit: 9 (2d8) cold damage and speed reduced by -10 feet.
BONUS
Misty Step. (1/Short) The apprentice teleports 30 feet to an unoccupied space they can see.














Elven Envoy
Medium humanoid (Half Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 16 (Breastplate)
Hit Points 52 (8d8 + 16)
Speed 30 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 14 (+2) CON 14 (+2)
INT 10 (+0) WIS 10 (+0) CHA 16 (+3)
Saving Throws Dex +5, Cha +5
Skills Deception +6, Insight +6*, Intimidation +6, Perception +3, Performance +6, Persuasion +9*, Stealth +5 (* = Expertise)
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Common, Elvish
Challenge 4 (1,100 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Spellcasting. The Envoy is an 8th-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 14, +6 to hit with spell attacks). The Envoy has following bard spells prepared:
Cantrips (at will): Mending, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation
1st level (1 slot left): Detect Magic, Healing Word
2nd level (1 slot left): Shatter, Suggestion, Zone of Truth
3rd level (1 slot left): Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Pattern, Sending, Tongues
4th level (1 slot left): Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility
*Assumed to already be cast in most encounters.
ACTIONS
Multiattack. The Envoy makes two attacks with the Elfsword or Longbow.
Elfsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d8 + 2) slashing damage.
Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, ranged 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d8 + 2) piercing damage.
BONUS
Inspiration. (2/Short) The Envoy selects one ally within 60 feet that can hear him, that ally gets +4 (1d8) to the next ability check, attack roll, damage roll, or saving throw of his choice.
REACTIONS
Parry. The Envoy adds 3 to its AC against one melee attack that would hit it. To do so, the Envoy must see the attacker and be wielding a melee weapon.












Elven Panther
Medium humanoid (Wood Elf), any alignment
Armor Class 14 (Hide Armor)
Hit Points 52 (8d8 + 16)
Speed 30 ft.
STR 10 (+0) DEX 14 (+2) CON 14 (+2)
INT 10 (+0) WIS 16 (+3) CHA 8 (-1)
Saving Throws Int +3, Wis +6
Skills Nature +3, Perception +6, Survival +6
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Common, Elvish, Druidic
Challenge 4 (1,100 XP)
Fey Ancestry. You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can’t put you to sleep.
Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
Spellcasting. The Panther is a 8th-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 14, +6 to hit with spell attacks). The Warmage has following druid spells prepared: Cantrips (at will): Druidcraft, Shillelagh, Thunderclap
1st level (1 slot left): Entangle, Goodberry, Speak with Animals
2nd level (1 slot left): Animal Messenger, Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Pass Without Trace
3rd level (1 slot left): Call Lightning, Dispel Magic
4th level (1 slot left): Hallucinatory Terrain, Wall of Fire
*Assumed to already be cast in most encounters.
ACTIONS
Staff. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d8 + 3) bludgeoning damage.
BONUS
Wild Shape. (2/Short) The Panther can assume the form of a beast CR 2 or below (usually: Brown Bear, Dire Wolf, Giant Eagle, Giant Spider, Giant Constrictor Snake, Giant Elk, or Saber-Toothed Tiger). This ability functions with all of the rules of the Druid Wild Shape in the Player’s Handbook.

Relevant data:

Elven Blade	Level 3	CR 1/2	Ratio 1/6 	Step Diff 3
Elven Scout	Level 4	CR 1	Ratio 1/4 	Step Diff 3
App. Warmage	Level 4	CR 1	Ratio 1/4 	Step Diff 3
Guardian	Level 6	CR 3	Ratio 1/2 	Step Diff 3
Watcher		Level 8	CR 4	Ratio 1/2 	Step Diff 4
Eld. Knight	Level 8	CR 4	Ratio 1/2 	Step Diff 4
Warmage		Level 8	CR 5	Ratio 1/2+ 	Step Diff 3
Envoy		Level 8	CR 4	Ratio 1/2 	Step Diff 4
Panther		Level 8	CR 4	Ratio 1/2 	Step Diff 4

So using that sample set (which is far from all inclusive and biased by being built solely by me) it seems to suggest an additive approach for translating PC level to CR may be more accurate than multiplicative.

[Unoriginal]

First off, I am not actually trying to prove anyone right or wrong. I just think the idea is interesting.

Fair.

True which is why I only put what I would call an NPC level of stuff in the statblock. But if the question is about guesstimating PC CRs items are going to make a 1 to maybe 3 CR difference.

Agreed.

An additive relationship is:
CR = PC Level - X

A multiplicative one is:
CR = PC Level * X

At least that is what I meant when I was trying to describe the relationship types above. The fact your fractions change with level range in the way they do actually points to a more additive relationship as well. When I was said I may be off that was because I predicted X in the additive relationship to be in the 3 to 5 range and my example turned out to be 6.

Just for the sake of some more data here is some statblocks I worked up awhile back to give me some more NPC options to fill out my game world and because I didn't like the MM way of doing NPCs. The important thing is they are all built more like PCs (though with NPC stat blocks) and just simplifying (and occasionally balancing) the abilities that end up in the stat blocks.

[...]

Elven Blade	Level 3	CR 1/2	Ratio 1/6 	Step Diff 3
Elven Scout	Level 4	CR 1	Ratio 1/4 	Step Diff 3
App. Warmage	Level 4	CR 1	Ratio 1/4 	Step Diff 3
Guardian	Level 6	CR 3	Ratio 1/2 	Step Diff 3
Watcher		Level 8	CR 4	Ratio 1/2 	Step Diff 4
Eld. Knight	Level 8	CR 4	Ratio 1/2 	Step Diff 4
Warmage		Level 8	CR 5	Ratio 1/2+ 	Step Diff 3
Envoy		Level 8	CR 4	Ratio 1/2 	Step Diff 4
Panther		Level 8	CR 4	Ratio 1/2 	Step Diff 4

So using that sample set (which is far from all inclusive and biased by being built solely by me) it seems to suggest an additive approach for translating PC level to CR may be more accurate than multiplicative.

Thank you for providing this data.

By curiosity, have you tried doing the reverse? As in, taking a monster statblock, and see what ratio and step difference they'd be compared to a PC

[GeneralVryth]

Thank you for providing this data.

No problem. I actually have more. But it is all biased by 2 important things. First, they are all stat blocks I personally made. So they are likely to follow a much more consistent level of optimization than ones made by a bunch of different people. Second, they are all tier 1 or 2. They just work well as way to illustrate the difference and maybe provide a little evidence.

By curiosity, have you tried doing the reverse? As in, taking a monster statblock, and see what ratio and step difference they'd be compared to a PC

I may be misunderstanding what you mean, but how would that work? Ultimately CR is just an approximation of creature's ability to take and receive damage. Just about anything with combat stats can have a CR generated for it. A PC statblock on the other hand follows a lot more rules, which weren't followed when generating most/all monster statblocks. So what would a monster CR to PC level even mean? If the question is about what is the right monster to replace the combat capability of a PC of X level then it would just be a matter of reversing the equations once you figure out the PC Level to CR conversion (if there is a reliable one).

[Unoriginal]

I may be misunderstanding what you mean, but how would that work? Ultimately CR is just an approximation of creature's ability to take and receive damage. Just about anything with combat stats can have a CR generated for it. A PC statblock on the other hand follows a lot more rules, which weren't followed when generating most/all monster statblocks. So what would a monster CR to PC level even mean? If the question is about what is the right monster to replace the combat capability of a PC of X level then it would just be a matter of reversing the equations once you figure out the PC Level to CR conversion (if there is a reliable one).

I meant it as:

Character of lvl X can do Y (ex, damage output), what kind of PC and which level can do that?

Ex: to which level of Fighter can a Veteran NPC match the closest with?

[RSP]

Interesting stuff! What about Level to CR for different classes? Does CR equivalent provide a way to actually compare classes in an objective way? Like “Rogues tend to be 1/4 CR, while Fighters are 1/3 CR”.

Not sure there isn’t still a ton of variation in subclasses, but it would be interesting to see what the base classes equate to.

[JackPhoenix]

OP is correct that CR X = a Medium encounter for a group of 4 lvl X PC, and an Easy encounter for a group of 5.

Monsters are also designed for a single encounter, while PCs are supposed to face multiple encounters between rests. That's certainly relevant. The level 4 fighter isn't supposed to fight one bugbear and go to sleep. With 200 XP per bugbear, and daily XP budget of 1700 XP for a single level 4 character (and the x1.5 modifier for less than 3 PCs), the character is expected to face 5 (and 2/3) bugbears over the course of the adventuring day, assuming each shows on his own (if they come in pairs, the adjusted XP modifier is x2, so only 2 pairs of 2 bugbears (200*2*2=800) over the day) with 2 short rests at some point in between. A single bugbear is an easy encounter for level 4 fighter. 2 bugbears at once are a hard encounter, and have a good chance to kill the fighter outright if they manage to get the ambush off).

Due to the nature of the game, the PCs are favored, too: The monster is expected to lose its single encounter, while the PC is supposed to survive the entire adventuring day.

[GeneralVryth]

I meant it as:

Character of lvl X can do Y (ex, damage output), what kind of PC and which level can do that?

Ex: to which level of Fighter can a Veteran NPC match the closest with?

I can't think of a reason why that shouldn't work, assuming the formula is accurate enough and the PC is built right. Assuming my guesses earlier are correct then a CR 3 Veteran, can probably be replicated or replaced by a level 6 or 7 Fighter (maybe even level 5, since the Veteran is more like a CR 2.5).

6d10+12 HP is ~45 a little low but covered by Second Wind
Armor is easy with the same splint
The Fighter would clearly have Two Weapon Fighting Style
16 Str is reasonable enough from NPC stats with 1 feat, so the weapon mods and thus offensive output ends up the same.
Probably a Champion sub-class since it's so weak it wouldn't effect CR much.
Action Surge would help offset the lost attack for Second Wind, and put damage output enough to make it closer to a solid CR 3 instead of 2.5.

The above said, it's pretty clear a true level 6 PC Fighter would almost certainly come out stronger than the Veteran, assuming a solid build trying to replicate the same fighting style (or improve on it).

[Unoriginal]

A single bugbear is an easy encounter for level 4 fighter. 2 bugbears at once are a hard encounter, and have a good chance to kill the fighter outright if they manage to get the ambush off).

By the encounter calculation, a single Bugbear is a Medium encounter for the lvl 4 Fighter, and 2 Bugbear would make it Deadly.

Which is coherent with the likely and not-so-likely-but-still-possible results those fights could have.

Adventuring alone makes fighting an opponent who is weaker than the Fighter but not by *that* much a very dicey situation, if you'll forgive my pun.

Due to the nature of the game, the PCs are favored, too: The monster is expected to lose its single encounter, while the PC is supposed to survive the entire adventuring day.

This is true to an extent. I don't think the PC is supposed to survive, they're expected to be able to survive.

There is a big difference between "able to do X" and "supposed to do X".

I can't think of a reason why that shouldn't work, assuming the formula is accurate enough and the PC is built right. Assuming my guesses earlier are correct then a CR 3 Veteran, can probably be replicated or replaced by a level 6 or 7 Fighter (maybe even level 5, since the Veteran is more like a CR 2.5).

6d10+12 HP is ~45 a little low but covered by Second Wind
Armor is easy with the same splint
The Fighter would clearly have Two Weapon Fighting Style
16 Str is reasonable enough from NPC stats with 1 feat, so the weapon mods and thus offensive output ends up the same.
Probably a Champion sub-class since it's so weak it wouldn't effect CR much.
Action Surge would help offset the lost attack for Second Wind, and put damage output enough to make it closer to a solid CR 3 instead of 2.5.

The above said, it's pretty clear a true level 6 PC Fighter would almost certainly come out stronger than the Veteran, assuming a solid build trying to replicate the same fighting style (or improve on it).

I agree with everything said here.

My estimation a while ago was lvl 5 Fighter.

[JackPhoenix]

By the encounter calculation, a single Bugbear is a Medium encounter for the lvl 4 Fighter, and 2 Bugbear would make it Deadly.

You're right, I forgot to include the multiplier and only checked the base 200 XP value of a bugbear(s) against XP tresholds (which are 250 for medium and 500 for deadly), despite using it for the number of encounters per day.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

I mean, the problem with trying to draw a comparison this way is that monsters and PCs are designed in very different ways. Monsters are designed to have low effective damage (so either they're accurate but their attacks are a light tickle, or they hit hard but are pretty inaccurate) and AC, but make up for it with a ton of HP. On the flip side, PCs are designed to have high effective damage and great AC, but comparatively little HP.

Also... a 5th level S&B Fighter with Str 18 and Con 14 might math out to being a CR 3 creature by raw numbers, but if we add the healing from Second Wind on top of its HP it comes out as being CR 4, and that's ignoring any further bonuses from subclasses (for example, a 5th level Eldritch Knight is going to effectively be a CR 5 because they'll be able to spam Shield)

Yeah... I wish the WotC devs put in, or was allowed to put in, half the effort that the ppl on this thread is putting into the CR system.

'Cause then we would have gotten a decent CR/monster system and/or math.

[JLandan]

When comparing PC level and monster CR, it is impossible to make a measured comparison. There are too many variables; stats, equipment, special abilities, players' skill, etc. Few of these variables can be codified for a mathematical equation. Because a measured comparison cannot be made, the only way to make a useful comparison is a judged comparison.

A judgement is both more complex in some ways and less complex in others. The general comparison of 1 PC level to 1/4 CR is a judgement, not a calculation. It is also the best comparison, but it starts to fall apart at higher levels. Which is why judgement, not measurement, is the only way to make a useful comparison. Judgement can self-correct. But it must still be based in some measurement and not just pulled out of thin air. You can say a 4 PC party of 1st level is roughly equal to a CR 1 monster (based on measurable features and good judgement), but if you say a 4 PC party of 1st level is roughly equal to a CR 10 monster (no measurable features and poor judgement), you're going to get dead PCs.

It's a called shot, more like a gymnast's score than a runner's time. An experienced DM can look at a monster's stat block and judge whether it will be too weak, okay or too powerful without looking at its CR.

[JNAProductions]

I will say, since this is a CR thread, I vastly prefer 5E's implementation to 3.5's.

In 3.5, each HD was worth X CR, where X was almost always less than one.
A template added +Y CR.
Adding associated class levels (so a martial class for a Troll, a casting class for an Aboleth, etc.) adds 1 to the CR, but a non-associated class level added .5 to the CR. Once you have equal HD and non-associated class levels, future levels are considered associated.
This might sound good, in theory, but the issue is it didn't work very well.

A Stone Giant (CR 8, 14 HD, +2 Wis as the only mental modifier) could add fourteen levels of Wizard and be CR 15.
An Ogre (CR 3, 4 HD, -4 Int and Cha as mental modifiers) with fourteen levels of Wizard is ALSO CR 15, despite being worse in basically every way.

In 5E, it's a guideline-if you make a monster with stats of X, it should be CR Y.
It's not complete-too much is unaccounted for, and the numbers aren't perfect to begin with. But it's not gameable like the 3.5 system is.

[Unoriginal]

When comparing PC level and monster CR, it is impossible to make a measured comparison. There are too many variables; stats, equipment, special abilities, players' skill, etc. Few of these variables can be codified for a mathematical equation

This is not correct.

The CR calculation mainly cares about HP, AC, to-hit chance, save DCs and damage output, with anything else being a miscellaneous category that can up or down the CR by a bit.

We know the general lower and upper limits of a PC built with the standard rules. Therefore it is absolutely possible to calculate the CR of a creature with levels, or compare the CR to PC levels.

How useful that calculation/comparison is is a whole other debate. But it is possible.

As demonstrated by many in this very thread.

The general comparison of 1 PC level to 1/4 CR is a judgement, not a calculation.

It was calculated. Using the provided math.

Therefore, a calculation.

I will say, since this is a CR thread, I vastly prefer 5E's implementation to 3.5's.

Same.