The Drow War (Epic 3.5)

[thethird]

How do you feel about using high CL mostly for buffing blasting (not going to be dropping holy words on people).

Was thinking building a knight of the weave / ultimate magus.

[Aegis013]

Player	Character	Race	Classes	Complete
DrK	Kurnos	Wood Elf	(wild reaper) Druid 21	~ 80% complete
Samduke	Ivory	Silverbrow Human	Cleric of Waukeen 21	WIP
Feathersnow	Elsien Peasebloosom	Gray Elf	Spellthief7/SC3->Noctumancer 11	Complete
Aegis013	Jorrik Worldshield	Dream Dwarf	Crusader 5/Hellreaver 5/Deepwarden 2/Crusader +9	Complete
-	-	-	-	-

[Darius Vibrtrar]

Player	Character	Race	Classes	Complete
DrK	Kurnos	Wood Elf	(wild reaper) Druid 21	~ 80% complete
Samduke	Ivory	Silverbrow Human	Cleric of Waukeen 21	WIP
Feathersnow	Elsien Peasebloosom	Gray Elf	Spellthief7/SC3->Noctumancer 11	Complete
Aegis013	Jorrik Worldshield	Dream Dwarf	Crusader 5/Hellreaver 5/Deepwarden 2/Crusader +9	Complete
Darius	Daruis	Star Elf	Bard 5 / Stormsinger 5/ Marshall 1/ Sublime Chord 10	WIP
-	-	-	-	-

[samduke]

How do you feel about using high CL mostly for buffing blasting (not going to be dropping holy words on people).

Was thinking building a knight of the weave / ultimate magus.

just note the gm has said LOW OP game so take that for what it is worth

[Talivan]

Player	Character	Race	Classes	Complete
DrK	Kurnos	Wood Elf	(wild reaper) Druid 21	~ 80% complete
Samduke	Ivory	Silverbrow Human	Cleric of Waukeen 21	WIP
Feathersnow	Elsien Peasebloosom	Gray Elf	Spellthief7/SC3->Noctumancer 11	Complete
Aegis013	Jorrik Worldshield	Dream Dwarf	Crusader 5/Hellreaver 5/Deepwarden 2/Crusader +9	Complete
Darius	Daruis	Star Elf	Bard 5 / Stormsinger 5/ Marshall 1/ Sublime Chord 10	WIP
Talivan	Enzio	Human	Rogue 13 / Warblade 3 / Invisible Blade 5	WIP
-	-	-	-	-

[watupwithdat]

DrK had the same Wild Reaper idea as me, so I'll take the opportunity to force myself to not build a spellcaster, for once.

I've always thought about playing an Eternal Blade, and this low op high level game seems to be the only time that seems like a good idea.

Player	Character	Race	Classes	Complete
DrK	Kurnos	Wood Elf	(wild reaper) Druid 21	~ 80% complete
Samduke	Ivory	Silverbrow Human	Cleric of Waukeen 21	WIP
Feathersnow	Elsien Peasebloosom	Gray Elf	Spellthief7/SC3->Noctumancer 11	Complete
Aegis013	Jorrik Worldshield	Dream Dwarf	Crusader 5/Hellreaver 5/Deepwarden 2/Crusader +9	Complete
Darius	Daruis	Star Elf	Bard 5 / Stormsinger 5/ Marshall 1/ Sublime Chord 10	WIP
Talivan	Enzio	Human	Rogue 13 / Warblade 3 / Invisible Blade 5	WIP
watupwithdat	Cardan Tirdis	Snow Elf	Fighter 1/Warblade 7/Champion of Corellon Larethian 2/Eternal Blade 10/? 1	WIP
-	-	-	-	-

[Dusk Raven]

Adding myself.

Player	Character	Race	Classes	Complete
DrK	Kurnos	Wood Elf	(wild reaper) Druid 21	~ 80% complete
Samduke	Ivory	Silverbrow Human	Cleric of Waukeen 21	WIP
Feathersnow	Elsien Peasebloosom	Gray Elf	Spellthief7/SC3->Noctumancer 11	Complete
Aegis013	Jorrik Worldshield	Dream Dwarf	Crusader 5/Hellreaver 5/Deepwarden 2/Crusader +9	Complete
Darius	Daruis	Star Elf	Bard 5 / Stormsinger 5/ Marshall 1/ Sublime Chord 10	WIP
Talivan	Enzio	Human	Rogue 13 / Warblade 3 / Invisible Blade 5	WIP
watupwithdat	Cardan Tirdis	Snow Elf	Warblade X/Champion of Corellon Larethian 2?/Eternal Blade 10	WIP
Dusk Raven	Calliopi Rayza	Human	Human Paragon 3/Psychic Warrior 8/Psychic Weapon Master 10	Needs Equipment, More Detailed Backstory
-	-	-	-	-

[watupwithdat]

Are we doing fractional saves/bab?

Does Improved Weapon Familiarity work in place of Exotic Weapon Proficiency for prerequisites? It has the same effect for elven weapons, but Champion of Corellon Larethian specifies Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

[paradox26]

@paradox26 Putting up a list of concerns because I am not sure whether they fall under your definition of cheese.

Serrenwood
Psychic Meditation & Greater version
Hustle Psionic Power

Serrenwood is okay.
I will need a working link to psychic meditation, but the articles about its use suggest it is overpowered, so be prepared for a no on those.
Hustle is okay as long as it isn't abused with shenanigans.

@paradox26
RE: Epic Weapons:

I am wanting your definition of what is an epic weapon is
is it
A: any weapon with an enhancement bonus of 6+ *going from +5 to +6 is ouch
+5 +50,000 gp , +6 +720,000 gp

B: any weapon with a total bonus of 6+ * IE +5 enh +50,000 gp & upto +5 named enhancement ?
making a possible +10 weapon at 200,000 gp

An epic weapon has either a special ability or enhancement bonus of +6 or greater. But what I will do is remove the x10 multiplier and reduce it to x2, so epic weapons are actually affordable. I always thought the x10 multiplier was ridiculous.

@Paradox26-

I'm good with keeping what I got, but I did have a question for you. If an Ur-Priest takes levels in Contemplative, can they then trade one of the domains for the Divine Magician ACF?

As the contemplative's whole idea is being closer to their god, I would say an ur-priest can't become one, unfortunately, as they reject the gods.

How do you feel about using high CL mostly for buffing blasting (not going to be dropping holy words on people).

Was thinking building a knight of the weave / ultimate magus.

That is okay, but as Samduke said, remember that it is a low OP game, so don't go overboard with it.

Are we doing fractional saves/bab?

Does Improved Weapon Familiarity work in place of Exotic Weapon Proficiency for prerequisites? It has the same effect for elven weapons, but Champion of Corellon Larethian specifies Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Yes, you can use fractional saves.
I will allow one feat to replace the other, since it is still a feat tax, in this case.

[samduke]

An epic weapon has either a special ability or enhancement bonus of +6 or greater. But what I will do is remove the x10 multiplier and reduce it to x2, so epic weapons are actually affordable. I always thought the x10 multiplier was ridiculous

so a +10 at 200k, +11 would be 2x that for 400k?

[paradox26]

Not quite. It would cost 2.42 million normally for a +11 weapon. Instead of the x10 value, you would pay x2, so it would be 484,000gp.

[samduke]

okay let me get it straight, you said 2x the cost, so I am strictly dealing with Enhancement for this not specials like shock

+5 50,000 gp * normally this is where ENH ends and +6 normally is epic silliness x10 normally

+6 72,000 gp * x2 144,000
+7 98,000 gp *x2 196,000
+8 128,000 gp *x2 256,000
+9 162,000 gp *x2 324,000
+10 200,000 gp *x2 400,000
+11 242,000 gp *x2 484,000

and for anything further the dmg has Weapon bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp

Now let us deal with the Specials like Shock, are the specials figured just as normal meaning if I want that +10 ENH and Shock a bonus +1 I need to pay the +11 price

OR am I paying the +10 price and then only 2,000 for the +1 bonus special ?

[Zarthrax]

As the contemplative's whole idea is being closer to their god, I would say an ur-priest can't become one, unfortunately, as they reject the gods.

That's fine. Second question, then. There are numerous ways to have spells count as the opposite source (arcane as divine, divine as arcane), especially from Dragon Magazine. Are those ways allowed for counting as casting the opposite source for PrC requirements?

[DrK]

okay let me get it straight, you said 2x the cost, so I am strictly dealing with Enhancement for this not specials like shock

+5 50,000 gp * normally this is where ENH ends and +6 normally is epic silliness x10 normally

+6 72,000 gp * x2 144,000
+7 98,000 gp *x2 196,000
+8 128,000 gp *x2 256,000
+9 162,000 gp *x2 324,000
+10 200,000 gp *x2 400,000
+11 242,000 gp *x2 484,000

and for anything further the dmg has Weapon bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp

Now let us deal with the Specials like Shock, are the specials figured just as normal meaning if I want that +10 ENH and Shock a bonus +1 I need to pay the +11 price

OR am I paying the +10 price and then only 2,000 for the +1 bonus special ?

Its the total of ENH and specials

e.g. a +3 sword is 18K, a +1 flaming (+1 effect) keen (+1 effect) sword is also 18K

[thethird]

just note the gm has said LOW OP game so take that for what it is worth

Thanks. That's 2 cents worth. (this is a good natured joke implying that you gave our opinion, colloquially known as 2 cents and then talked about worth). The whole reason I am asking is because GM said that. To make sure things are alright.

That said this game is for you, so, what do you feel is an adequate OP level? Personally I believe that what is theoretical OP is clear (pun pun), what is high OP can be... relatively easy to define (night infinite actions loop, gating a lot of solars), but anything below that is open to table interpretation.

That is okay, but as Samduke said, remember that it is a low OP game, so don't go overboard with it.

Ideas on spoiler. I rather align this before going forward and building an epic character. What do people (you) consider low OP? A classic out of the book single classed character? Someone who isn't capable of casting 9th level spells?

Spoiler

Show

Honest idea is to have a high CL to have buffs more resistant to dispelling and be able to enable the party.

Build stubb:

Wizard 5 (with abyssal specialist, aligned spellcaster (chaos), and spontaneous divination) / knight of the weave 1 / ultimate magus 10 / escalation mage 5

Using theurgic specialist feat to stack CL on specialist spells (i.e. chaos spells). The chaos spells CL would be 20 (wizard) + 28 (knight of the weave) + 3 (ultimate magus) -> 51

Not using the abyssal specialist + aligned spellcaster would mean that that high CL is only for one school of magic (a more specialized thing)

Scrapping the theurgic specialist entirely would also reduce the high CL to 23 which would be almost french vanilla.

What the build has over an out of the box wizard is a high CL and metamagic cost mitigation as the knight of the weave slots can be used to pay for metamagic and the escalation mage abilities imitate metamagic effects with a CL check (which the high CL makes easier to succeed at).

[Archmage1]

So... I'm kind of tempted to see about reviving an old character of mine. Conman. An ancient barbarian. But first, let's see what the stat gods say.

(1d8+10)[14]
(1d8+10)[12]
(1d8+10)[11]
(1d8+10)[17]
(1d8+10)[14]
(1d8+10)[11]
(1d8+10)[11]
17, 14, 14, 12, 12, 12

(1d8+10)[16]
(1d8+10)[18]
(1d8+10)[16]
(1d8+10)[13]
(1d8+10)[17]
(1d8+10)[12]
(1d8+10)[13]
18, 17, 16, 16, 13, 13

I have a strange feeling that one of these stat blocks is a little bit better than the other.

[DrK]

Ideas on spoiler. I rather align this before going forward and building an epic character. What do people (you) consider low OP? A classic out of the book single classed character? Someone who isn't capable of casting 9th level spells?

My take on low OP is a straight druid with no metamagic, no divine metamagic (he's a wild reaper variant) and most of his feats spent on combat maneuvres. No stats have even reached 30. Also a pet bear rather than a venomfire boosted Fleskraker

[Archmage1]

It is possible that I might be pushing the OP scale a bit too far: I'm planning on combing the good ole lion totem barbarian(Pounce), shock trooper, and various fear producing things to act as "defense".

All of which is probably going to lead to a single enemy going splat, and others having performance issues. Hopefully.

Signs that you might be making a barbarian...
Gold spent on not dying? ~150k for +11 Con. 25k for +5 to saves.
Gold spent on killing things? ~475k for a sword. ~150k for more strength. 12k for darkvision
Signs that something that went horribly wrong? ~100k for +4 charisma.

Also, his total lack of survivability is going to be a major problem, since he is likely to take a lot of damage. And has no useful healing. Hm.

[Feathersnow]

For what little it's worth, me having rarely played at this level:.
My take was a theurgic combination of two traditionally weak classes, so I have lots of spells, better than decent defense, and nothing above spell level 7 at start and CL equal to my HD by default, that can only be boosted by fighting other mages. Also, I'm a counter-magic specialist, which is kind of niche, and my weapon is a gauntlet, even though I had free Proficiencies as an Elf.

[Dusk Raven]

As I stated before, I'm bad at optimizing on my own, and have little ability to predict how OP something will be. As it is, going into Psychic Weapon Master is far from the most optimized thing a PsyWar can do, but at the same time I do have high crit damage, and get equally high temp HP every time I do so, and I will likely be getting crits on a consistent basis.

But I think high crit damage is preferable to the many, many ways a fully optimized Wizard has of simply ending a fight. I still have to, you know, engage with the mechanics of combat.

I will need a working link to psychic meditation, but the articles about its use suggest it is overpowered, so be prepared for a no on those.

...Good thing I didn't take it, though it is on my list of wanted feats.

I'm not sure I'm actually allowed to post a link, but it's easy to find with a Google search. As I recall, it makes regaining psionic focus a move action instead of a full-round action, so it's very valuable to those who expend them. I myself technically have two foci to spend, so it's less urgent for me, but it'd still be pretty good.

I suspect it'd mostly be bonkers for those who want to move action: regain focus, standard action: cast power, and swift action: cast quickened power. Which I could technically do, but my powers are pretty much all buffs, and I only took Quickened Power so I'd be able to get more buffs up when I don't have prep time. None of my powers are capable of ending a fight, and they only quicken it by making me better at what I was already doing.

[Archmage1]

Ok, Coman(A Cohen the Barbarian ripoff), is sort of done, barring fluff. Well, and spells.

Are Epic Destinies on the table(http://web.archive.org/web/201009160.../drfe/20080428) specifically looking at Blade of Ragnarock)

Potential areas of concern:
With an AC of 10, he's going to get hit. A lot. He also has a lot of hit points.
And no healing. This could be problematical.

Damage: Might be a bit overtuned. Assuming he can stack all the things, he can do...
1d10+23(Base)+80(Power attack) damage on a charge with one attack, and with pounce, he gets 4 of them.(+38/33/23/23)

Crowd control:
I might have overdone it a bit on the fear side of things?
When he charges or full attacks: Enemies within 20 feet need a will save DC 25 or be shaken for 1 minute.(Save makes immune for a day)
When he rages, one enemy within 30 feet(And his buddies within 10 feet) gets to roll a check(1d20+hit dice+wis+bonuses vs fear) against 1d20+31(Or 38, if you let intimidate be strength based) or be shaken.
On his first hit against an evil enemy, they get to do a will save DC 25 or be shaken.
When he rages, all enemies with in feet need to make a will save(DC my intimidate check) or be shaken. And all their buddies within 10 feet of them too.)
Also, if he demoralizes anyone, they are cowering for 1 turn instead, then shaken instead.


If he makes afraid, they get to cover in fear instead, and are shaken in the following round. Which does cut down on the duration, but...)

Player	Character	Race	Classes	Complete
DrK	Kurnos	Wood Elf	(wild reaper) Druid 21	~ 80% complete
Samduke	Ivory	Silverbrow Human	Cleric of Waukeen 21	WIP
Feathersnow	Elsien Peasebloosom	Gray Elf	Spellthief7/SC3->Noctumancer 11	Complete
Aegis013	Jorrik Worldshield	Dream Dwarf	Crusader 5/Hellreaver 5/Deepwarden 2/Crusader +9	Complete
Darius	Daruis	Star Elf	Bard 5 / Stormsinger 5/ Marshall 1/ Sublime Chord 10	WIP
Talivan	Enzio	Human	Rogue 13 / Warblade 3 / Invisible Blade 5	WIP
watupwithdat	Cardan Tirdis	Snow Elf	Warblade X/Champion of Corellon Larethian 2?/Eternal Blade 10	WIP
Dusk Raven	Calliopi Rayza	Human	Human Paragon 3/Psychic Warrior 8/Psychic Weapon Master 10	Needs Equipment, More Detailed Backstory
Archmage1	Coman	Human	Barbarian 11/Champion of Gwynharwyf 10	Missing Backstory
-	-	-	-	-

[Dusk Raven]

Working on buying equipment. Fortunately, this time it's easy - I ported over almost all my equipment from the last time I used this build (well, something similar) and... I still have 348,032 gold left. I hate buying items at high levels.

What else do I even spend it on? Do I just shell out the money for Tomes/Manuals so I don't have to worry about spending the gold anymore? Maybe I just do more research and find more things to buy...

Couple questions: One, I'd really like some Celestial Armor, but it's normally just a +3, I think. Can I spend additional gold to "upgrade" it to a +5 or higher? A +5 is, I believe, 38,400 gold, but I could probably add some special abilities to it, didn't think of that last time.

Second, you said that stacking magical effects is +50% of the lesser cost. Is that for all effects, or does that not apply to simple number increases like the MIC seems to recommend?

[Archmage1]

I figured tomes were a good choice. Possibly to a too great of one, for me. (I got 3).

Also, some source of darkvision is probably an idea.

Is it sad that my plan for armor is to get it from the enemy?

[CozJa]

So, I'm thinking about combining Focused Specialist ACF and the Changeling Wizard racial levels to make a character heavily specialized in Transmutation and Illusion spells. Would it be ok? Tentative build would be Changeling Wizard 5/Master Specialist 10/Recaster5/Archmage1

Obvioulsy powerful, since it's a wizard, but none of the usual cheesy things in my mind

[Da'Shain]

Player	Character	Race	Classes	Complete
DrK	Kurnos	Wood Elf	(wild reaper) Druid 21	~ 80% complete
Samduke	Ivory	Silverbrow Human	Cleric of Waukeen 21	WIP
Feathersnow	Elsien Peasebloosom	Gray Elf	Spellthief7/SC3->Noctumancer 11	Complete
Aegis013	Jorrik Worldshield	Dream Dwarf	Crusader 5/Hellreaver 5/Deepwarden 2/Crusader +9	Complete
Darius	Daruis	Star Elf	Bard 5 / Stormsinger 5/ Marshall 1/ Sublime Chord 10	WIP
Talivan	Enzio	Human	Rogue 13 / Warblade 3 / Invisible Blade 5	WIP
watupwithdat	Cardan Tirdis	Snow Elf	Warblade X/Champion of Corellon Larethian 2?/Eternal Blade 10	WIP
Dusk Raven	Calliopi Rayza	Human	Human Paragon 3/Psychic Warrior 8/Psychic Weapon Master 10	Needs Equipment, More Detailed Backstory
Archmage1	Coman	Human	Barbarian 11/Champion of Gwynharwyf 10	Missing Backstory
Da'Shain	Greath Shamea	Whisper Gnome	Factotum 19/Swordsage 2	95% (finish equipment/some description)
-	-	-	-	-

Adding a Factotum to the mix, a former Drow slave who escaped in a mess of blood years ago and has returned to try and finish off that sadistic society if he can. In terms of character optimization, I would call him low to mid-OP for an epic character myself, as he doesn't make use of most of the more ridiculous combos and has some glaring holes in his defenses, but he certainly hits hard and has all the skills and utility for days.

[niw18]

intresting umm

Would you allow a Tibbit

Fabulous Cats

thinking of a Psion 11 / thrallherd 10 as my build

[samduke]

Player	Character	Race	Classes	Complete
Samduke	Ivory	Silverbrow Human	Cleric 6/ Dracolyte 5/ Contemplative 6/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 4	Complete
DrK	Kurnos	Wood Elf	(wild reaper) Druid 21	~ 80% complete
Feathersnow	Elsien Peasebloosom	Gray Elf	Spellthief7/SC3->Noctumancer 11	Complete
Aegis013	Jorrik Worldshield	Dream Dwarf	Crusader 5/Hellreaver 5/Deepwarden 2/Crusader +9	Complete
Darius	Daruis	Star Elf	Bard 5 / Stormsinger 5/ Marshall 1/ Sublime Chord 10	WIP
Talivan	Enzio	Human	Rogue 13 / Warblade 3 / Invisible Blade 5	WIP
watupwithdat	Cardan Tirdis	Snow Elf	Warblade X/Champion of Corellon Larethian 2?/Eternal Blade 10	WIP
Dusk Raven	Calliopi Rayza	Human	Human Paragon 3/Psychic Warrior 8/Psychic Weapon Master 10	Needs Equipment, More Detailed Backstory
Archmage1	Coman	Human	Barbarian 11/Champion of Gwynharwyf 10	Missing Backstory
Da'Shain	Greath Shamea	Whisper Gnome	Factotum 19/Swordsage 2	95% (finish equipment/some description)
-	-	-	-	-

because the forums are really unstable these days
*Asked via discord to P26: Can I ignore the racial requirement of Seeker of the Misty Isle
*Answered: yes

[Darius Vibrtrar]

Player	Character	Race	Classes	Complete
Samduke	Ivory	Silverbrow Human	Cleric 6/ Dracolyte 5/ Contemplative 6/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 4	Complete
DrK	Kurnos	Wood Elf	(wild reaper) Druid 21	~ 80% complete
Feathersnow	Elsien Peasebloosom	Gray Elf	Spellthief7/SC3->Noctumancer 11	Complete
Aegis013	Jorrik Worldshield	Dream Dwarf	Crusader 5/Hellreaver 5/Deepwarden 2/Crusader +9	Complete
Darius	Daruis	Star Elf	Bard 5 / Stormsinger 5/ Marshall 1/ Sublime Chord 10	Finishing Touches
Talivan	Enzio	Human	Rogue 13 / Warblade 3 / Invisible Blade 5	WIP
watupwithdat	Cardan Tirdis	Snow Elf	Warblade X/Champion of Corellon Larethian 2?/Eternal Blade 10	WIP
Dusk Raven	Calliopi Rayza	Human	Human Paragon 3/Psychic Warrior 8/Psychic Weapon Master 10	Needs Equipment, More Detailed Backstory
Archmage1	Coman	Human	Barbarian 11/Champion of Gwynharwyf 10	Missing Backstory
Da'Shain	Greath Shamea	Whisper Gnome	Factotum 19/Swordsage 2	95% (finish equipment/some description)
-	-	-	-	-

Updated CS status

[Aegis013]

Briefly glancing at other submissions to see if Jorrik is around the same ability level and I happened to notice Darius is using a Cloak of Charisma and an Ioun Stone of Charisma. Normally Cloak of Charisma and Ioun Stone of Charisma (Pink and Green Sphere) both provide Enhancement Bonus and thus don't stack. Am I missing something?

Also, I think Enzio's character sheet link is broken and is routing to Darius instead of Enzio.

[Darius Vibrtrar]

Briefly glancing at other submissions to see if Jorrik is around the same ability level and I happened to notice Darius is using a Cloak of Charisma and an Ioun Stone of Charisma. Normally Cloak of Charisma and Ioun Stone of Charisma (Pink and Green Sphere) both provide Enhancement Bonus and thus don't stack. Am I missing something?

Ah, that must have come up in an errata, back when I was using the printed books, the Ioun Stones were not Enhancement bonuses. Ill drop that stone. They wont stack.