So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?

[Unoriginal]

This latest strip confirmed that no, Calder was not supposed to be conscious while in stasis. The Scribblers intended to show him mercy and instead trapped him in an endless waking nightmare. But it's no less wrong for being from neglect than malice. I think Calder's going to reinforce the ideas that came up with the gods, the goblinoids, and intention vs. impact.

It's important to note that Serini blames Calder's Spell Resistance for the unconsciousness-inducer part of the spell circles not working, and Calder doesn't object to her point.

The thing is, a being with Spell Resistance can lower it at will.

Furthermore, it is shown Calder could telepathically communicate with quite a bit of range, or at least mentally attack them.

So the only way for Calder to end up in this situation is if he a) intentionally resisted the magic and b) chose to *not* communicate with any of the adventurers once they finished setting up the magic (or at least attack them telepathically to show something was wrong, if he could't use words).

Calder had surrendered to the Order of the Scribble, and they had decided on a non-abusive imprisonment method for him. Resisting the spell network supposed to imprison him and then not informing the Order of the Scribble indicates, to me, that the Red Dragon was trying to fool them into leaving him unattended, then escape as soon as possible.

And then he discovered he couldn't escape, and that his surrender-then-betray gambit had backfired.


It's possible the Order of the Scribble was negligent and didn't check, but Calder had to actively bamboozle them into believing everything was working at 100% for his I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream fate to happen.

[Peelee]

So the only way for Calder to end up in this situation is if he a) intentionally resisted the magic and b) chose to *not* communicate with any of the adventurers once they finished setting up the magic (or at least attack them telepathically to show something was wrong, if he could't use words).

Or if the magic on Calder's contianment failed partially.

"the only way" isn't the only way, is the point here.

[danielxcutter]

I think it’s still fair to say that what happened to him was nasty even considering what kind of a being he was and why he was imprisoned like that, tbh.

[Unoriginal]

Or if the magic on Calder's contianment failed partially.

"the only way" isn't the only way, is the point here.

It did fail partially, because Calder resisted the effect and then didn't inform the persons who could have fixed it one way or the other.

Unless you meant "failed X ammount of time after the initial set up", which is possible but doesn't fit what Calder or Serini are saying. Of course Serini isn't an archmage, Calder is very angry and probably confused due to how long he was stuck in body but not in mind, and neither have any reason to be objective about the situation.

And yeah, Calder's circumatances were indeed horrible, I'm just saying it's not fair to blame the Order of the Scribble for neglect if they took the necessary precautions and Calder disabled them in an escape attempt.

[KorvinStarmast]

Calder had surrendered to the Order of the Scribble, and they had decided on a non-abusive imprisonment method for him. Resisting the spell network supposed to imprison him and then not informing the Order of the Scribble indicates, to me, that the Red Dragon was trying to fool them into leaving him unattended, then escape as soon as possible.

That conforms to how AD&D 1e dragon subdual works, roughly.

And then he discovered he couldn't escape, and that his surrender-then-betray gambit had backfired.

Many a story is told about a villain or a hero who outsmarts themselves. Standard fare in fantasy/SF/S&S works (example, The Dark Eidolon; see also Gandalf's "wise fool" remark as regards Sauron).

It's possible the Order of the Scribble was negligent and didn't check, but Calder had to actively bamboozle them into believing everything was working at 100% for his I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream fate to happen.

Yeah, and I love the reference to Ellison's story. +1.

[gbaji]

This latest strip confirmed that no, Calder was not supposed to be conscious while in stasis. The Scribblers intended to show him mercy and instead trapped him in an endless waking nightmare. But it's no less wrong for being from neglect than malice. I think Calder's going to reinforce the ideas that came up with the gods, the goblinoids, and intention vs. impact.

Except he's specifically referring to the condition being "wrong", and not the actions which caused the condition. it's quite possible for someone to have suffered, and have legitimate reason to be upset about it, even if no one specifically took any action with the intent to cause that suffering. In the case of Calder, we can absolutely say that the Scribbler's are at fault for what happened to Calder, but that doesn't mean we should condemn them for their actions, or say it was evil to do what they did. Intent does not always matter for determination of fault and responsibility, but it does matter (a lot!) when assessing the morality of the action itself.

[Riarra]

The thing is, a being with Spell Resistance can lower it at will.

I thought maybe the Scribblers didn't fully consider the implications of putting a creature with Spell Resistance in stasis, but I didn't realize it could be voluntarily suppressed.

I'm just saying it's not fair to blame the Order of the Scribble for neglect if they took the necessary precautions and Calder disabled them in an escape attempt.

Except he's specifically referring to the condition being "wrong", and not the actions which caused the condition. it's quite possible for someone to have suffered, and have legitimate reason to be upset about it, even if no one specifically took any action with the intent to cause that suffering. In the case of Calder, we can absolutely say that the Scribbler's are at fault for what happened to Calder, but that doesn't mean we should condemn them for their actions, or say it was evil to do what they did. Intent does not always matter for determination of fault and responsibility, but it does matter (a lot!) when assessing the morality of the action itself.

Quoting Durkon like I did may have come off as harsher towards the Scribblers than I (heh) intended. gbaji said what I was trying to get at better than I did.

[Ionathus]

I actually really like this specific possibility, in addition to what everyone's saying. Though I'm guessing by the Snarl you meant the "Threads of Creation" we saw earlier? No one's going to go touching them willingly, but this fight makes the perfect opportunity for someone on either side to end up accidentally grazing one and show us how dangerous they really are.

That would be really interesting! I can't recall and don't have the time to check the archives: are the Threads of Creation in Calder's path right now? If he took off flying across the bridge, would he hit them?

I agree that Calder might be the best candidate for the Worf Effect on showing what the Threads can do: he's extremely powerful and intelligent, but also very unapologetically evil and dangerous, so my sympathy for his death is less likely.

I think it’s still fair to say that what happened to him was nasty even considering what kind of a being he was and why he was imprisoned like that, tbh.

Yeah. I think it'd be interesting to unpack the Spell Resistance mechanics and "did he play along with intention to betray, only to realize he couldn't?" hypotheticals, but at the end of the day it definitely sucks. No living mind should be tortured like that, intentionally or accidentally, and I guess I'm a little surprised that Epic-level adventurers didn't realize resistance could interfere with stasis like that.

Still, he definitely seems like a real turd and I'll admit that's limiting my sympathy.

[DaOldeWolf]

Though I'm guessing by the Snarl you meant the "Threads of Creation" we saw earlier? No one's going to go touching them willingly, but this fight makes the perfect opportunity for someone on either side to end up accidentally grazing one and show us how dangerous they really are.

Yep, especially with them being introduced not that long ago. It makes sense, at least in my head.

[Unoriginal]

I agree that Calder might be the best candidate for the Worf Effect on showing what the Threads can do: he's extremely powerful and intelligent, but also very unapologetically evil and dangerous, so my sympathy for his death is less likely.

Mmmh, it's true that Calder could be a great candidate for that role.

The other option that comes to mind would be the Quinton summoned by Redcloak. To show that even an extremely intelligent, logical who's powerful and efficient enough to let Team Evil breeze through the decoy dungeons is utterly out of their depth concerning the nearly-freed Snarl.

[Psyren]

Has there been a story beat in this comic that didn't go anywhere? I certainly can't think of one.

And in this instance, +1 to its draining their resources, will change Serini's outlook/relationship to the Order in some way, will likely power up the weaker characters like Minrah etc.

[gbaji]

Has there been a story beat in this comic that didn't go anywhere? I certainly can't think of one.

And in this instance, +1 to its draining their resources, will change Serini's outlook/relationship to the Order in some way, will likely power up the weaker characters like Minrah etc.

Except that unless something seriously changes with the timing of TE finishing exploring all of the dungeons in the Hollow, the Order and Friends should have plenty of time to rest and recover after this fight. The only likely effect from a resource perspective is that some of our heroes may actually go up a level as a result, which would make them a bit tougher going into the final fight.

I'm still leaning towards a more storytelling/pacing purpose here. I do think that the pacing requires that "something happen" to the Order while traveling through the Final Dungeon, so this is it. And if, over the course of this fight, there are some story/character reveals, and info drops, then that's good too. Could be stuff about Serini and the Scribblers. Could be learning something about the Threads. Could be both.

I do think, however, that the Threads (at least the ones we saw previously) are not on some kind of direct path out of the dungeon. It's hard to tell from the panels, but it looked to me like they had to double back from where they encountered them and got here via following another path through the dungeon. Which would suggest that if Calder were making a beeline "out", that he would not run into them.

But that also raises the question: Which direction/path is "out"? The only entrance to the Final Dungeon is via a portal that opens when you trigger a trap inside one of the standard dungeons and have the marks from all of the other dungeons as well. It's unclear how long that portal stays open once activated, much less whether it's two way. There must be an exit out of the Final Dungeon, but so far we haven't been shown what/where that actually is. If I were Serini I would not have not wanted folks to be able to take out this dungeon in bite sized pieces, so putting the exit in the same room with the entrance would be kinda dumb (once someone has the marks, they can just pop in, clear a room, pop out, rinse and repeat). In fact, I'd have the exit well concealed, and waaaay on the other side of the dungeon requiring someone to survive all the traps and stasis held monsters to get there.

But regardless, it's a very good bet that Calder does not know where the exit is. So it's completely up in the air where he might go if he chooses to leave the room. I would kinda assume he isn't going to actually try to kill everyone, but to put them under his control somehow and use them to escape the dungeon. Which, ironically, would mean that killing Serini is the last thing he actually should be doing.

[Gift Jeraff]

I do think, however, that the Threads (at least the ones we saw previously) are not on some kind of direct path out of the dungeon. It's hard to tell from the panels, but it looked to me like they had to double back from where they encountered them and got here via following another path through the dungeon. Which would suggest that if Calder were making a beeline "out", that he would not run into them.

They can be seen clipping through the above floor by the intersection leading to Calder's walkway.

[Kamunami]

I agree that Calder might be the best candidate for the Worf Effect on showing what the Threads can do: he's extremely powerful and intelligent, but also very unapologetically evil and dangerous, so my sympathy for his death is less likely.

Not to mention, he almost certainly wouldn't have the slightest clue what they are.

[Gift Jeraff]

Not to mention, he almost certainly wouldn't have the slightest clue what they are.

Not necessarily. We know "they went to each rift and defeated those that would use them for their own purposes." Calder could be one of those villains.

I have a wild theory that he might have played some sort of role in helping Lirian and Dorukan develop the rift-sealing and Gate-creating spells since they (as well as the Crimson Mantle's Gate-manipulating ritual) all involve the conjunction of divine + arcane magic, and as a red dragon he could have unique insight into combining the two because he can naturally cast cleric spells as arcane magic. Perhaps he was hoping to enthrall a divine caster for some scheme involving one of the rifts. Or he just had some obscure knowledge and they tracked him down to obtain it.

The only problem with this theory is then Serini would be very dumb to leave him in a dungeon with a Gate if he has shown ill intent with a rift in the past...unless he was actually trying to seal the rift to protect the world, so Serini knows that for all his faults he can be trusted not to put the world at risk.

[Kamunami]

The only problem with this theory is then Serini would be very dumb to leave him in a dungeon with a Gate if he has shown ill intent with a rift in the past...unless he was actually trying to seal the rift to protect the world, so Serini knows that for all his faults he can be trusted not to put the world at risk.

You know, this does actually raise a question I haven't seen asked yet. This whole place is supposed to be a challenge for anyone looking to access the Gate, and the enemies are ones she's picked to stand in the way. Does it really make sense that rather than having Calder sealed away semi-permanently, she had such an evil and dangerous creature set up to be deliberately released as a mere encounter? I know someone getting this far is super unlikely, but that doesn't change that the trap is set up to release Calder on some unsuspecting schmuck. She'd have to have seen him getting free as an eventuality.

[Unoriginal]

You know, this does actually raise a question I haven't seen asked yet. This whole place is supposed to be a challenge for anyone looking to access the Gate, and the enemies are ones she's picked to stand in the way. Does it really make sense that rather than having Calder sealed away semi-permanently, she had such an evil and dangerous creature set up to be deliberately released as a mere encounter? I know someone getting this far is super unlikely, but that doesn't change that the trap is set up to release Calder on some unsuspecting schmuck. She'd have to have seen him getting free as an eventuality.

Given that Serini's plan in the worst-case-scenario was entirely relying on her being able to seek her old adventuring partners and to Get The Band Back Together, I still think that "oh, and Calder has been freed/risks to be freed" would have been one of the arguments she'd put forth.

It's also worth noting that Calder being so dangerous and evil is one of the reason why having him as an obstacle works in the first place.

Also, I think that if Soon objected to killing the dragon after his surrender, it's unlikely he would have approved of permanent stasis with no way to ever be released. So Calder eventually being allowed out was almost certainly always part of the plan.

[KorvinStarmast]

...unless he was actually trying to seal the rift to protect the world, so Serini knows that for all his faults he can be trusted not to put the world at risk.

It's where his food is. The world.

[Psyren]

Except that unless something seriously changes with the timing of TE finishing exploring all of the dungeons in the Hollow, the Order and Friends should have plenty of time to rest and recover after this fight. The only likely effect from a resource perspective is that some of our heroes may actually go up a level as a result, which would make them a bit tougher going into the final fight.

Time to do it and space to do it safely are two different things. Though I'm inclined to agree with you, the estimate probably wouldn't have been 2 days if there weren't going to be time for a long rest in between.

[brian 333]

I am wondering where, in the examination of Calder's cruel fate, is the argument for poetic justice?

We are discussing a being who treats other living beings as tools. He is currently trapping Sunny inside her own mind while forcing her body to obey his will. His former minions were trapped inside their own heads unable to even complain as Calder hurled them onto the blades of the Scribblers to save his own scales!

Calder is clearly too dangerous to set free. He is equally too dangerous to imprison with others. That leaves three choices:
Execute a prisoner who surrendered,
Solitary confinement for life,
Or stasis until a greater threat to the world comes along and releases him.

The Scribblers appear to have chosen #3 which for some reason converted to #2.

But is solitary confinement nearly as bad as the fate he inflicted on his victims? At least he got to remain himself rather than be a mind trapped in a sock puppet controlled by someone who holds you in contempt..

[Precure]

As far as we know Scribblers didn't choose anything, because this dungeon is built after they dissolve themselves.

[Chronos]

Any or all of the previous explanations could be it, but I prefer to keep it simple: They're in a dungeon that's explicitly full of the most dangerous monsters around. Of course they're going to have to have a fight with one of those monsters. And a big nasty red dragon, being so iconic, is an excellent choice for that fight.

[Liquor Box]

Given that Serini's plan in the worst-case-scenario was entirely relying on her being able to seek her old adventuring partners and to Get The Band Back Together, I still think that "oh, and Calder has been freed/risks to be freed" would have been one of the arguments she'd put forth.

It's also worth noting that Calder being so dangerous and evil is one of the reason why having him as an obstacle works in the first place.

Also, I think that if Soon objected to killing the dragon after his surrender, it's unlikely he would have approved of permanent stasis with no way to ever be released. So Calder eventually being allowed out was almost certainly always part of the plan.

That doesn't follow for me. The plan was he would be held in stasis, to be released if a invader fails to avoid the stasis trigger, hopefully to fight the invaders.

If that happened he'd most likely either fail (and be of little value), or defeat the invaders. If he loses, that doesn't help. But if he wins, does that help. Calder is then in a position to damage the rest of the defences, or at worst take the gate himself (he is smart enough to seek to control it). In all the most likely scenarios, he does no good for the defence, and perhaps does harm.

Your answer to this has been that Serini's plan, if Calder got free (after beating the invaders) is to round up her old team to recapture him.

But, would there be time for that? Unless I'm misunderstanding the comic, they are currently pretty close to the gate. The Scribblers might have a very small amount of time to respond (like an hour?, less?) from around the world at any time of day or night. We know from the previous comic that last time it took all six of them to take him down.

Putting aside the morality of keeping him in that state to use for Serini's own purposes, it seems to me to be likely to cause more harm to the defence than good.

[Unoriginal]

That doesn't follow for me. The plan was he would be held in stasis, to be released if a invader fails to avoid the stasis trigger, hopefully to fight the invaders.

If that happened he'd most likely either fail (and be of little value), or defeat the invaders. If he loses, that doesn't help. But if he wins, does that help. Calder is then in a position to damage the rest of the defences, or at worst take the gate himself (he is smart enough to seek to control it). In all the most likely scenarios, he does no good for the defence, and perhaps does harm.

Your answer to this has been that Serini's plan, if Calder got free (after beating the invaders) is to round up her old team to recapture him.

But, would there be time for that? Unless I'm misunderstanding the comic, they are currently pretty close to the gate. The Scribblers might have a very small amount of time to respond (like an hour?, less?) from around the world at any time of day or night. We know from the previous comic that last time it took all six of them to take him down.

Putting aside the morality of keeping him in that state to use for Serini's own purposes, it seems to me to be likely to cause more harm to the defence than good.

Calder fights the intruders and loses: one powerful evil entity who knows about the Gates ceases to be a problem, and the intruders have lost HPs, spells, and other ressources, meaning their dungeon exploration will be made harder or slowed down.

Calder fights the intruders and wins: a group of powerful evil (or at least potentially world-destroying) entities ceases to be a problem, and Calder is stuck in a dungeon he doesn't know with less HPs, spells and other ressources that he'd otherwise have, meaning he'd likely have to take time to recover or face whichever parts of the Final Dungeon the intruders hadn't cleared while weakened.

In either case, it gives Serini more time to gather the Order of the Scribble and sell them how dangerous the threat is.

Keep in mind that Serini would have called on her friends as soon as intruders made a serious go at the mini-dungeons, and even an outsiders whose powerset let them breeze through said mini-dungeons estimated the task would take two days.

Now of course, the worst case scenario would that either Calder or the intruders could trivialize the other and enslave them without éosing anything in the process... but that is less than likely when you take into account the rest of the dungeon. Anyone able to reach Calder would be a significant adversary to the dragon, and there is likely no non-divine being in the OotS world who can trivialize Calder.

[KorvinStarmast]

Calder is then in a position to damage the rest of the defences, or at worst take the gate himself (he is smart enough to seek to control it).

But he doesn't have the ritual - that needs a divine and arcane caster of very high levels - so controlling the gate isn't something he can do. He can choose to destroy it, or not destroy it. Is that what you mean by "control" the gate, or, are you referring to controlling access to the gate? (Heh, recruit bugbears into his new cult: fun!)

[Kamunami]

but that is less than likely when you take into account the rest of the dungeon

Like for instance, a room not long prior where they're intended to have all magic items and metal equipment turned to scraps?

[Unoriginal]

But he doesn't have the ritual - that needs a divine and arcane caster of very high levels - so controlling the gate isn't something he can do. He can choose to destroy it, or not destroy it. Is that what you mean by "control" the gate, or, are you referring to controlling access to the gate? (Heh, recruit bugbears into his new cult: fun!)

I mean, Redcloak's ritual doesn't control the Gate either, it just transport it to a different Plane.

Also, it is probably not the only thing one could do with the Gates. Since they kind of hold creation together, it's not outlandish to think a different ritual could allow the performer to produce different effects.

If Calder is presently capable of something like that is a different question, but I'm sure someome with enough time, power and ressources would come up with *something* nasty sooner or later, if it was their goal.

EDIT:

In fact, part of the reason Redcloak is operating under the sunk cost fallacy is that he seems to think the ritual requiring both a powerful divine caster, a powerful arcane caster and a functioning Gate as built by Lirian and Dorukan is the *only* way to get something out of the Snarl business. It doesn't seem he ever attempted to do anything with the Gobbotopia rift, not even study it, aside from threatening to throw people in one time.

[Precure]

Calder can't escape, the path is too narrow for him.

[brian 333]

Calder can't escape, the path is too narrow for him.

And we know he cannot polymorph into another form, say, a behold eye-tyr crazy eye monster, and float out.

[Precure]

And we know he cannot polymorph into another form, say, a behold eye-tyr crazy eye monster, and float out.

OK, you got me there.