So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?

[brian 333]

My apologies, I was not trying to 'get you.' I was trying for a chuckle. Let me fix that.

[Precure]

It's too late now...

[brian 333]

It's too late now...

I'm famous for cramming genies back into bottles. I'll show you; here, hold my beer...

[Peelee]

I'm famous for cramming genies back into bottles. I'll show you; here, hold my beer...

I'm fairly certain Christina Aguilera has a restraining order against you.

[ti'esar]

Any or all of the previous explanations could be it, but I prefer to keep it simple: They're in a dungeon that's explicitly full of the most dangerous monsters around. Of course they're going to have to have a fight with one of those monsters. And a big nasty red dragon, being so iconic, is an excellent choice for that fight.

As somebody who explicitly commented on 1295 how appropriate it was that the Final Dungeon would have a fight with the first really badass dragon to appear in a couple of books, I still very much doubt that's all of it, just because it's rarely the Giant's style to do just one thing at once. I fully expect the commentary for this scene to have a "besides, dragons are just cool" bit in it, but I do think there'll be a 'besides'.

[Liquor Box]

Calder fights the intruders and loses: one powerful evil entity who knows about the Gates ceases to be a problem, and the intruders have lost HPs, spells, and other ressources, meaning their dungeon exploration will be made harder or slowed down.

Calder fights the intruders and wins: a group of powerful evil (or at least potentially world-destroying) entities ceases to be a problem, and Calder is stuck in a dungeon he doesn't know with less HPs, spells and other ressources that he'd otherwise have, meaning he'd likely have to take time to recover or face whichever parts of the Final Dungeon the intruders hadn't cleared while weakened.

In either case, it gives Serini more time to gather the Order of the Scribble and sell them how dangerous the threat is.

Keep in mind that Serini would have called on her friends as soon as intruders made a serious go at the mini-dungeons, and even an outsiders whose powerset let them breeze through said mini-dungeons estimated the task would take two days.

Now of course, the worst case scenario would that either Calder or the intruders could trivialize the other and enslave them without éosing anything in the process... but that is less than likely when you take into account the rest of the dungeon. Anyone able to reach Calder would be a significant adversary to the dragon, and there is likely no non-divine being in the OotS world who can trivialize Calder.

Your premise is that Calder and the invaders are both threats to the dungeon now, so whichever wins, the other is eliminated. But Calder is only a threat because Serini placed him there - if she hadn't he most likely wouldn't be a threat to the gates at all. Now he is a potential threat if his stasis gets taken away.

You mention that that the winning party might lose resources in the fight - which is possible. But more likely they would gain resources. It's been suggested in this very thread that the Order might be fighting Calder to gain a level or two, and the victor (out of Calder and the invader) may gain magic items. Or indeed, as you say, the worst case scenario could happen with one of the two groups enslaving the other (either through Calder's mindbending, or Xykon's zombiefication).

Indeed, in one of the other threads someone (I can't remember if it were you or not) suggested Calder might be able to avoid a fight - he might ally with the invaders, or simply avoid them - so now there are two threats, or the two threats have combined.

If Calder wasn't in the dungeon, the worst case scenario would be that there is one threat there. With Calder in the dungeon that is the best case scenario.

But he doesn't have the ritual - that needs a divine and arcane caster of very high levels - so controlling the gate isn't something he can do. He can choose to destroy it, or not destroy it. Is that what you mean by "control" the gate, or, are you referring to controlling access to the gate? (Heh, recruit bugbears into his new cult: fun!)

Does Serini even know about the ritual? I don;t think she is trying to defend the gate from that specifically, but rather anyone at all who might be a threat to it.

[Tzardok]

The best case scenario is a mutual kill.

[Liquor Box]

The best case scenario is a mutual kill.

True, that is a possible, but unlikely outcome.

[Unoriginal]

Your premise is that Calder and the invaders are both threats to the dungeon now, so whichever wins, the other is eliminated. But Calder is only a threat because Serini placed him there - if she hadn't he most likely wouldn't be a threat to the gates at all. Now he is a potential threat if his stasis gets taken away.

Indeed, and that is a good Get The Band Back Together argument.

You mention that that the winning party might lose resources in the fight - which is possible. But more likely they would gain resources.

Simply put, not, it is not likely at all. The nature of D&D combat is that you're going to lose ressources unless you can trivialize the encounter with your at-will capacities only without taking any damage.

It's been suggested in this very thread that the Order might be fighting Calder to gain a level or two, and the victor (out of Calder and the invader) may gain magic items.

Calder doesn't seem to have any magic items, so at worst he could gain the items of the intruders. In any case, removing the intruders who wield them is still a net benefit.

As for gaining levels, from what we saw in the rest ogéf the comic, gaining levels in the OotS-verse doesn't heal you or give you back spent powers immediately. Maybe the survivors of the clash would be a level higher, but they'd still be hurt and out of juice.

Or indeed, as you say, the worst case scenario could happen with one of the two groups enslaving the other (either through Calder's mindbending, or Xykon's zombiefication).

Note that the worst case scenario is "one side enslaves the other after trivializing the encounter".

If potential intruders enslave Calder but have burned through all their 9th level spells and lost 1/4th of their total HPs, that's still a net benefit.

Indeed, in one of the other threads someone (I can't remember if it were you or not) suggested Calder might be able to avoid a fight - he might ally with the invaders, or simply avoid them - so now there are two threats, or the two threats have combined.

Calder escaping without slowing down tge intruders is a "problem for later". Serini probably thought he could be tracked down and killed this time if he was up to his old tricks, and it'd be a greap trip down nostalgia lane for her team. Maybe she even thought that if they had to work together long enough, they'll remember they were friends once.

Calder joining forces with the intruders without a fight has no chance to happen, based on what we know of his personality.

If Calder wasn't in the dungeon, the worst case scenario would be that there is one threat there. With Calder in the dungeon that is the best case scenario.

As said above, best case scenario is they take each other out.

[Liquor Box]

Indeed, and that is a good Get The Band Back Together argument.

I think Serini's plan was to watch any invaders, and judge whether they were a 'serious threat' while they attacked the first 100 dungeons. If they were she would call in her friends (if still alive). But she would do that long before the final dungeon. Who knows how fast or slow an invader might do the final dungeon - letting them begin that dungeon before summoning her reinforcments would be a huge risk. She kind of says that as well, but saying the gauntlet gives her time to summon her companions, which suggests she would summon them while still in the gauntlet.

So I think by the time the invaders reached Calder they will have already got past Serini's companions, one way or another.

Simply put, not, it is not likely at all. The nature of D&D combat is that you're going to lose ressources unless you can trivialize the encounter with your at-will capacities only without taking any damage.

That's not right, it is the opposite. On average you gain resources from encounters, otherwise adventurers get poorer and poorer, instead they get richer and richer. You use resources like spells in encounters, but they could rest afterward if you are too depleted.

Calder doesn't seem to have any magic items, so at worst he could gain the items of the intruders. In any case, removing the intruders who wield them is still a net benefit.

As for gaining levels, from what we saw in the rest ogéf the comic, gaining levels in the OotS-verse doesn't heal you or give you back spent powers immediately. Maybe the survivors of the clash would be a level higher, but they'd still be hurt and out of juice.

You are probably right about Calder not having any items (Serini probably took them), but someone in the thread did suggest the purpose of the fight was to get someone in the party magic items. As for a level, they might possibly rest.

Note that the worst case scenario is "one side enslaves the other after trivializing the encounter".

If potential intruders enslave Calder but have burned through all their 9th level spells and lost 1/4th of their total HPs, that's still a net benefit.

Unless they rest afterward, or as you say, unless one side easily beats the other.

Personally, I suspect that Xykon and party could beat Calder pretty easily.

Calder escaping without slowing down tge intruders is a "problem for later". Serini probably thought he could be tracked down and killed this time if he was up to his old tricks, and it'd be a greap trip down nostalgia lane for her team. Maybe she even thought that if they had to work together long enough, they'll remember they were friends once.

If she thinks it's a problem for later, it's really silly of her. By having him there, she has created that problem for later, possibly in addition to whatever problem already existed.

You suggest she's counting on her friends, but by the time Calder escapes she would have already called them and they either wouldn't have come, or would have come and been defeated, or been bypassed in some way. If they hadn't, she would be cutting it fine to deal with either the invaders or Calder. Calling her firends was a decent enough plan (had they still been alive) while invaders were attacking the gauntlet, but not when they are on the cusp of the gate.

Calder joining forces with the intruders without a fight has no chance to happen, based on what we know of his personality.

I thin it's unlikely as well, I think that the circumstances of their confrontation mean a fight is very liekly (whether Calder wants one or not). But in the 1295 thread some people were theorising that it would happen. We can't know if it would happen, and I agree it is unlikely - but still more likely than a mutual kill.

As said above, best case scenario is they take each other out.

Fair enough, I will revise my comment. If the worst case If Calder wasn't in the dungeon, the worst case scenario would be that there is one threat there. With Calder in the dungeon that is the best case scenario, outside edge scenarios like mutual kills.

[danielxcutter]

For what it’s worth, “did not think this through” is basically Serini’s character theme in a nutshell, especially back when she was making the dungeon.

[Grendelkin]

The point of the Calder fight, from my perspective, appears to be offering Bloodfeast the opportunity to show he's the Order's heaviest hitter once again. :D

[SlashDash]

Or just escape, run into Redcloak, and tell him he's falling for a shell game, and tell him how to bypass it.

Not going to work.

First, the "shell game" is meaningless. Serini said that Redcloak's speedrun is going to bypass things and the Quint essentially makes her defenses a non issue.

Second, the issue is the actual Final Dungeon. The defenses there are much harder - for start the first encounter destroys all your magic items.

Calder has no idea how to bypass these issues and I don't see the Quint managing to restrain all the monsters here with such ease either.

[KorvinStarmast]

The point of the Calder fight, from my perspective, appears to be offering Bloodfeast the opportunity to show he's the Order's heaviest hitter once again. :D

Not gonna disagree with that.

Second, the issue is the actual Final Dungeon. The defenses there are much harder - for start the first encounter destroys all your magic items.

I am pretty sure that the Red Cloak won't be de magicked, since IIRC it is an Artifact.

...and I don't see the Quint managing to restrain all the monsters here with such ease either.

Quint also will have a resource drain should Quint enter the Final Dungeon ... but I get the feeling that Quint will get them to the Final Dungeon and then, having completed his end of the deal, return to his native plane.

[Grendelkin]

I wonder, though: how will the Quinton react when confronted with the fact that it's been contracted to do enable the release of a force of ultimate chaos and destruction onto the Outer Planes? It 'lives' there itself, and it is all about restraining and binding chaos.

[Peelee]

I wonder, though: how will the Quinton react when confronted with the fact that it's been contracted to do enable the release of a force of ultimate chaos and destruction onto the Outer Planes? It 'lives' there itself, and it is all about restraining and binding chaos.

Who, exactly, would inform the Quinton? Only Redcloak and Durkon know, and Durkon doesn't know why the Quinton is helping Redcloak.

[Jurai]

It's because the comic is about Dungeons & DRAGONS, and so we finally have a Dragon IN a DUNGEON.

[Peelee]

It's because the comic is about Dungeons & DRAGONS, and so we finally have a Dragon IN a DUNGEON.

Only clever, intelligent, beautiful people think of stuff like that.

I'm still not sold on this whole idea of having both dungeons and dragons.

[SlashDash]

I am pretty sure that the Red Cloak won't be de magicked, since IIRC it is an Artifact. Quint also will have a resource drain should Quint enter the Final Dungeon ... but I get the feeling that Quint will get them to the Final Dungeon and then, having completed his end of the deal, return to his native plane.

The Crimson Mantle is likely to survive sure, otherwise that would have been the solution to the story in the first place.

But evil party still requires the rest of their magic items.
That alone is already too much of a threat that it's impossible for team evil to just randomly face.

Heck, their magic items are destroyed - that includes the magical darkness umbrella the Monster in the Dark is carrying. There's no way this is how the author will expose what it is.


As for the Quint, Redcloak's request was that they'll search all the doors until they find what they are looking for or search through all of them. Since the portal would open on the last room in the last door, then technically the Quint hasn't finished his task cause searching through the portal that is behind the door is part of the request.

On the other hand, if Redcloak sees Serini's floating head message and say something like "this is it" then the Quint might consider it under the clause of "find what you are looking for" since Redcloak never actually said it's the gate specifically and then leave.

I could rule lawyer it either way.

[KorvinStarmast]

As for the Quint, Redcloak's request was that they'll search all the doors until they find what they are looking for or search through all of them. Since the portal would open on the last room in the last door, then technically the Quint hasn't finished his task cause searching through the portal that is behind the door is part of the request.

On the other hand, if Redcloak sees Serini's floating head message and say something like "this is it" then the Quint might consider it under the clause of "find what you are looking for" since Redcloak never actually said it's the gate specifically and then leave.

I could rule lawyer it either way.

Yep, I was looking at it the second way, but I see your point.

[Liquor Box]

For what it’s worth, “did not think this through” is basically Serini’s character theme in a nutshell, especially back when she was making the dungeon.

Yeah, that is probably the best explanation.

[KorvinStarmast]

For what it’s worth, “did not think this through” is basically Serini’s character theme in a nutshell, especially back when she was making the dungeon.

True for all of the gates other than (perhaps) Soon's.

[Liquor Box]

True for all of the gates other than (perhaps) Soon's.

Dorukan's gate was pretty wel thought through. Even after its primary defence (Dorukan himself) went down, the secondary defences held Xykon off for months. He even thought to put a self destruct button in it.

Also, for Girard, I don't think what occurred was that foreseeable.

[Grendelkin]

Considering what Girard convinced his family to do to keep up its numbers, I think there was a race on between him dying of old age ... or discovering that the world's mechanics had designated him the end boss / cult leader of a pyramid-shaped dungeon.

[Sermil]

Maybe, in small part, to hammer home how much more effective the Order is when they work together.

V, by themself, got curb-stomped by a dragon, because once the anti-magic comes out "you cease to be a mighty wizard ... while I am still a dragon".
But put the Order together, pull out the anti-magic, and that becomes "you cease to be a mighty wizard while I am GLRKT!"

[SlashDash]

True for all of the gates other than (perhaps) Soon's.

I'll give you Girard and Lirian defenses since they seem a bit off considering both of them were based on stuff that undead are immune - disease and illusions. It does seem a bit weird since you'd expect undead big bads as one of the most common evil tropes.


Howver -

Soon was about to do the one thing nobody has managed - killing Xykon and Redcloak for good (pun intended). Remember that this is the only time in the strip that we've seen Xykon actually scared from an opponent and wanting to run away.
So yeah, that was a pretty good defense until Myko messed things up. That was not a reasonably expected issue.


Dorkun's defense stomped Xykon entirely. Preventing anyone evil from reaching the gate was spot on.
The only reason it went down was because Elan was too stupid to think it would be cool to press the self destruct button. And before anyone asks - the trial had V exactly asking what the point of a self destruction button was in the first place and they got a decent explanation.

[Tzardok]

*sigh* Undead are not immune to illusions. Undead are immune to Mind-affecting abilities, which includes some illusions, but they don't have a categorical immunity to illusion.

[KorvinStarmast]

Dorkun's defense stomped Xykon entirely. Preventing anyone evil from reaching the gate was spot on.
The only reason it went down was because Elan was too stupid to think it would be cool to press the self destruct button.

Fair point.

*sigh* Undead are not immune to illusions. Undead are immune to Mind-affecting abilities, which includes some illusions, but they don't have a categorical immunity to illusion.

Thanks for the 3.5x update, I am still shaking my head at undead being unaffected by sneak attack.

[The MunchKING]

Thanks for the 3.5x update, I am still shaking my head at undead being unaffected by sneak attack.

I'm still surprised they AREN'T in other editions.

[Peelee]

I'm still surprised they AREN'T in other editions.

Seconded. 3.5 explained the fluff on why sneak attack works, and thus why it would not work on undead, constructs, and others.