Why are BG3 martials so good

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah I have no idea why people are saying jumping is limited to movement in-combat cuz it's pretty clearly not. You spend 3m worth of movement to jump, regardless of what your jump distance is, and at high Str values this can exceed your remaining movement, or even just flat-out exceed your movement entirely if you're particularly slow like a dwarf or gnome. This is to say nothing of class features and spells that increase jump distance but not movement - every person who's ever played a githyanki has at some point jumped further with a bonus action than they could've dashed, because high-Str jumps getting tripled is just a better way to get around in combat.

Jumping and Tavern Brawler are strength based though aren't they?
Strength would still be a 3rd stat for monk wouldn't it? So jumping not as far and Tavern Brawler not getting as much benefit.

Also the quick trip to the wiki got me the stillness of mind. Funnily enough they describe the change as a nerf, because any charm or frightened effect will cost an action even if it wasn't a concern for the situation.

The changes to jumping and especially Tavern Brawler (adding str to atk/dmg twice for unarmed) make Str a lot more important than it is in the base game. However, one doesn't have to make huge sacrifices in Dex/Wis to achieve this, as even in the early game potions of giant strength and their ingredients aren't exactly rare, will give you Str 21 regardless of your base Str, and will last all day. This can allow a monk with starting Dex 16/Wis 16 to have a monstrous attack/damage routine regularly without sacrificing AC, saves, perception, or initiative.

[Witty Username]

Given that, is there any point in actually investing in strength as the stat (before potions are applied)? It feels like anyone doing optimized play thoughs isn't using the characters strength stat at all.

[AvatarVecna]

Given that, is there any point in actually investing in strength as the stat (before potions are applied)? It feels like anyone doing optimized play thoughs isn't using the characters strength stat at all.

It's debatable. Like, you can have an elixir of giant strength and have your Str needs covered forever...but there's a lot of good elixirs. If you have good str already and your attacks/damage is covered, you could for example have an elixir of bloodlust, which gives you temp HP and an extra action up to 1/turn when you kill somebody. That lasts all day. Is it better for the aforementioned Dex 16/Wis 16 monk than the elixir of giant strength, which would give him +7 to attack/damage on top of what he already has? That depends on if you're already really good at killing stuff, really. Giant strength makes it more likely you'll finish off targets, but if you're already oneshotting most stuff, getting more actions is better. And there's other good elixirs as well.

[LudicSavant]

Jumping and Tavern Brawler are strength based though aren't they?

Strength Monks are a thing in BG3. You can get big strength boosts from items, or you could even go for a heavily armored, shield-wielding Monk setup if you want.

[Dr.Samurai]

The issue with "martials being good" is that so long as spells can approximate what martials can do plus do other stuff, martials will never be good enough for some people. You can always just play a spellcaster to do that and more.

Martials are already good in 5e. They're a blast to play. If some people need more than that, that's on them, and that's fine too.

[Thane of Fife]

Given that, is there any point in actually investing in strength as the stat (before potions are applied)? It feels like anyone doing optimized play thoughs isn't using the characters strength stat at all.

They just showcased a speed run of BG3 a few weeks ago at Awesome Games Done Quick, and I think Strength was the stat they set as their highest, despite, if I recall correctly, playing as a wizard.

[diplomancer]

They just showcased a speed run of BG3 a few weeks ago at Awesome Games Done Quick, and I think Strength was the stat they set as their highest, despite, if I recall correctly, playing as a wizard.

Speedruns, fun and impressive as they can be, are not a good parameter for evaluating the game. On a speedrun, you're not getting Str potions and items.

Moreover a dirty secret is that even when you do set off a trap in BG3, they're rarely that dangerous. I set off a few in Act 3 on the run where I had Gale doing my disarming that I mentioned, and it teneded to just result in a small burst of flame for 10-20 or so damage, which isn't a big deal at the levels you're at in Act 3. (This was on Tactician difficulty.)

Maybe setting some off in Act 1 when your health is so much lower would be much more hazardous, but that's when their DCs are mostly 10, so it doesn't take much to consistently to disarm them.

I got distracted and triggered a trap in Act 3 that wiped out almost all of my summons and got my party to below half health. In a Honour Run, no less. Had I not started the day off, as I usually do, with max level Aid and Heroes' Feast, it might even have killed the party. It's true that this just meant that I had to take a Long Rest right after, but it was the second scariest moment of my run so far.

Speaking generally, I feel my party is in more danger of traps than of most combats. Combats can be controlled better.

The points have all been made, but one I didn't see, or maybe just missed over.

Have we covered Haste working BETTER than it's supposed to? Not the Caster casts twice but the Martials literally get double their attacks instead of just one extra?

Let's be clear, the thing that made me decide "wow, martials are broken" Was a battle against a full sized Red Dragon with 400 HP.

A level 12 Eldritch Knight had haste cast on them by the bard. BA Misty Step to the Dragon across the entire battlefield. With Action Surge made 6 attacks with a 23 Strength, Great Weapon Master and a GreatSword +3 that doubled my strength damage. So each swing hit for 2d6+25. You drop the second strongest monster in the game in 2 rounds...

Unfortunately, this was nerfed for Honour Mode, now hasted attack only grants you one extra attack (but you can still cast 2 spells... to be fair, usually you're just burning resources faster, while the buffed up attacks of a Martial can be done all day)

[Zevox]

I got distracted and triggered a trap in Act 3 that wiped out almost all of my summons and got my party to below half health. In a Honour Run, no less. It's true that this just meant that I had to take a Long Rest right after, but it was the second scariest moment of my run so far.

Speaking generally, I feel my party is in more danger of traps than of most combats. Combats can be controlled better.

That hasn't been my experience at all. Maybe they vastly increased their deadliness in Honor Mode? I haven't played that (and likely won't, due to the "one auto-save and nothing else" part).

[DeTess]

That hasn't been my experience at all. Maybe they vastly increased their deadliness in Honor Mode? I haven't played that (and likely won't, due to the "one auto-save and nothing else" part).

There's a couple that area really deadly because they set off chain reactions. either hitting you with 3-5 traps worth of damage in succession as one traps sets off another or doing somethign silly like, say, blowing up half a dozen barrels of smokepowder.

[animewatcha]

Another thing is that there is no attunement in BG3.

[diplomancer]

There's a couple that area really deadly because they set off chain reactions. either hitting you with 3-5 traps worth of damage in succession as one traps sets off another or doing somethign silly like, say, blowing up half a dozen barrels of smokepowder.

This. Those chain reactions are scary.

Meanwhile, for most combats, even if things go south, you can usually run away.

[Crusher]

There's a couple that area really deadly because they set off chain reactions. either hitting you with 3-5 traps worth of damage in succession as one traps sets off another or doing somethign silly like, say, blowing up half a dozen barrels of smokepowder.

Yeah, seriously. By FAR the scariest thing in the game is a big bunch of explosive barrels, because there are a lot of ways to set things on fire and you are one "oops" away from annihilating your party.

I'm reasonably fond of the Zhentarim Hideout folks, but its just SO easy to shove the boss lady off the cliff and then chain-reaction detonate all the barrels of smokepower down there with a single Firebolt, killing half of more of the Zhents, that I basically never skip it. Those dead Zhents? They could be your party.

[Witty Username]

Yeah, seriously. By FAR the scariest thing in the game is a big bunch of explosive barrels, because there are a lot of ways to set things on fire and you are one "oops" away from annihilating your party.

Me: "you know maybe it was a bad idea to go for Wall of Fire in the Fireworks store"
My Gale headcannon: "In fairness, it was totally worth it though"

[Kane0]

Also those damn blights. Thought i was being clever chokepointing them on a narrow slope for convenient fireball formation, but the two tanks holding them there got demolished.

[elyktsorb]

Given that, is there any point in actually investing in strength as the stat (before potions are applied)? It feels like anyone doing optimized play thoughs isn't using the characters strength stat at all.

I honestly don't think so. There are plenty of str potions, as well as a few items that can set your strength score higher. In my 2 playthroughs, both of my Str monks had base strength of 8.

I mean optimally, I can also basically cheese most of the fights for the entirety of the first act by just stealth killing everything.

[diplomancer]

Me: "you know maybe it was a bad idea to go for Wall of Fire in the Fireworks store"
My Gale headcannon: "In fairness, it was totally worth it though"

Yeah, my distraction was on the basement of the Fireworks store. Not good.

Spoiler

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I don't know if anyone else has seen this or if it's an Honour Run special. When I was at the Fireworks store, I detonated the 3rd floor, as I usually do. Imagine my surprise when this drew the attention of about 20 (!) Flaming Fists, who came up and did not even try to arrest me, just straight to combat. I was in a good defensive position inside the store (and had a small army of undead and summons), or that might have been it for me... it was right after that veeeeeery long combat that I had my distraction moment.

[Mastikator]

Given that, is there any point in actually investing in strength as the stat (before potions are applied)? It feels like anyone doing optimized play thoughs isn't using the characters strength stat at all.

I'd say yes. There's a potion that permanently increases strength by 2 which can set your strength to 22. The potion of hill giant strength goes to 21, there is a club that raises your strength to 19. There is gauntlets of frost giant strength that goes to 23, but then you're missing out on helldusk gloves. Your best bet as a strength character is use the items and potions that don't increase strength but rather does something else, then put the strength items on weak characters specifically to improve jumping, throwing and carrying.
Having 19 strength on a wizard may seem wasteful until you realize that throwing smokepowder bombs is as good as fireball.

Strength is IMO approximately as good as dexterity in BG3. You don't really wanna dump either, but point buy and MAD classes will as usual force you to have weaknesses.

[Witty Username]

Strength is IMO approximately as good as dexterity in BG3. You don't really wanna dump either, but point buy and MAD classes will as usual force you to have weaknesses.

I do think, outside of my personal preferences, Intelligence and Charisma seem pretty reducable.

Charisma needs really only one character to bring it, so it is a safe hit for most others without much pain. And even with the expanded dialog, Intelligence seems kinda light still.

I say all of this with my primary playthrough being a barbarian that dumped both, and proceeded to be fine as the primary party conversationalist. I can't rule out that is due to Gith being busted or if the game is a bit forgiving in that direction.

[Keltest]

I do think, outside of my personal preferences, Intelligence and Charisma seem pretty reducable.

Charisma needs really only one character to bring it, so it is a safe hit for most others without much pain. And even with the expanded dialog, Intelligence seems kinda light still.

I say all of this with my primary playthrough being a barbarian that dumped both, and proceeded to be fine as the primary party conversationalist. I can't rule out that is due to Gith being busted or if the game is a bit forgiving in that direction.

Charisma is a handy stat to have on your main character because there are a lot of cool things locked behind dialogue checks that use charisma. Beyond that, its a casting stat for some classes, take it or leave it as necessary.

Int is very useful for a first/blind playthrough because a lot of lore and information is locked behind the int skills. But if you already know the things or don't care, it does very little.

[diplomancer]

Charisma is a handy stat to have on your main character because there are a lot of cool things locked behind dialogue checks that use charisma. Beyond that, its a casting stat for some classes, take it or leave it as necessary.

Int is very useful for a first/blind playthrough because a lot of lore and information is locked behind the int skills. But if you already know the things or don't care, it does very little.

I'd advise not to dump Cha, and to have proficiency in at least one of the Cha-skills, preferably persuasion. You can usually have a 12 in Cha without sacrificing anything. I'm using a Mod that has more spells, and Druidcraft gives you advantage on Intimidation, it was perfect for my very evil Spores Druid Durge.

Once you get to act 3, if you become a partial Illithid you can get Expertise in all 3 Cha-skills, making all Cha checks a lot easier

[Witty Username]

Int is very useful for a first/blind playthrough because a lot of lore and information is locked behind the int skills. But if you already know the things or don't care, it does very little.

I got a decent amount of this having fairly low investment though, the checks seem to be around 10 like most other things. I got both the Jergal and Myrkul references off my barbarian with a -1 for example, and the ones that every party member checks feel pretty likely for someone to succeed.

[Luccan]

I'm pretty sure the reason Jumping lets you go further in BG3 is because regular movement counts vertical distance but Jumping doesn't. It's why flying is usually worse than grounded movement, because flying also measures vertical distance in its total and you can't jump to just ignore it

Edit: I also think BG3 is doing a lot of work in the background that you would have to do yourself in 5e. Even if your DM let you carry dozens of explosive oil barrels as long as you had the carrying capacity, you'd still have to calculate that by hand at the table. BG3 does every calculation for you, so actions that would be a pain in the ass to adjudicate at the table (and therefore probably not worth everyone's time to do in most combats) take literally a couple of clicks in BG3.

[LudicSavant]

I'm pretty sure the reason Jumping lets you go further in BG3 is because regular movement counts vertical distance but Jumping doesn't. It's why flying is usually worse than grounded movement, because flying also measures vertical distance in its total and you can't jump to just ignore it

Edit: I also think BG3 is doing a lot of work in the background that you would have to do yourself in 5e. Even if your DM let you carry dozens of explosive oil barrels as long as you had the carrying capacity, you'd still have to calculate that by hand at the table. BG3 does every calculation for you, so actions that would be a pain in the ass to adjudicate at the table (and therefore probably not worth everyone's time to do in most combats) take literally a couple of clicks in BG3.

In D&D 5e (rather than BG3), a barrel of that physical size would be very heavy and just sort of get nudged around, slowly, by a 20 strength character (rather than majestically thrown across the map with a big ol' explosion).

Pretty much everything about the Strength stat is scaled up in BG3. Shoves are bonus actions and can launch you 20+ feet. Jumps are bonus actions that add extra mobility, and can scale beyond your normal movement speed (potentially far beyond). Objects like barrels are lightened to help you carry them around. Thrown weapons no longer require extra action economy to draw, and have considerably greater effective range (a handaxe in 5e would only be able to attack up to 20 feet without disadvantage, while in BG3 it's 60 feet).

[Dr.Samurai]

Yeah, the game is like "hey we have this cool vague option about improvising actions, you should use it" and it hardly ever seems worth doing. Not as accurate, crap damage, single attack vs multiple attacks, etc.

Would be great if the Strength score had a chart about how far you can throw objects of different weights and the types of damage they do, etc. and it was actually worth doing.

[Sorinth]

In D&D 5e (rather than BG3), a barrel of that physical size would be very heavy and just sort of get nudged around, slowly, by a 20 strength character (rather than majestically thrown across the map with a big ol' explosion).

Pretty much everything about the Strength stat is scaled up in BG3. Shoves are bonus actions and can launch you 20+ feet. Jumps are bonus actions that add extra mobility, and can scale beyond your normal movement speed (potentially far beyond). Objects like barrels are lightened to help you carry them around. Thrown weapons no longer require extra action economy to draw, and have considerably greater effective range (a handaxe in 5e would only be able to attack up to 20 feet without disadvantage, while in BG3 it's 60 feet).

But you don't have a grapple option in BG3 so you do lose out on some stuff relative to table top version. But yeah the BA movement and Shove are quite good, as is just picking up an enemy and throwing them.

One that I haven't seen mentioned is the stealth vision cones. They help the strength character way more than the stealth focused dex characters because you can more often then not get right up next to a creature without ever having to make a roll, especially since you can jump through the vision cones without breaking stealth so the extra movement from jump helps even more.

[Zevox]

I'm pretty sure the reason Jumping lets you go further in BG3 is because regular movement counts vertical distance but Jumping doesn't. It's why flying is usually worse than grounded movement, because flying also measures vertical distance in its total and you can't jump to just ignore it

That seems completely backwards. Flying is, as far as I've seen, always better than grounded movement - you straight-up move further with flying movement than grounded in every instance I've ever seen in the game, including

Spoiler: Act 3

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the flight you can gain on everyone from using the Astral Tadpole.

Also, jumping lets you move further because it's based on a formula based on your strength. You spend 10 ft of movement flat to use it, but can get more than 10 ft of movement from it as long as your strength is decent. Don't remember the exact formula or at what strength score you're getting more than you're spending, but it doesn't take much, so your high-strength characters will always gain a pretty substantial amount of movement when using jump as compared to not using it. Get your strength high enough or use the Jump spell and you'll get distances above your ordinary movement speed.