can shadow pounce be triggered with magic items that teleport?

[Elves]

shadow pounce only works with effects that have the teleportation descriptor (for example, shadow jump qualifies because it is based on dimension door, which has this descriptor).

a lot of people ignore this line but I wanted to look at it in more detail, because it forces us to ask whether magic items (that are not actual spell activation or spell trigger items) can trigger it. take some of the shadow pouncer's traditional favorite items, anklets of translocation and boots of swift passage from MIC. both of these items are created using the dimension door spell, but is that enough for us to say that they are "an effect with the teleportation descriptor"?

I'm inclined to say yes, and it's because magic items retain the spell school aura and caster level of the spells used to create them. that suggests to me that their effects are still "based on" the source spells in a way analogous to how the shadow jump ability is based on dimension door, even though it doesn't work exactly like the spell and is (su).

I think that makes sense, but I'm not 100% on it.

to be clear, under this reading, something that increased the damage of "spells with the fire descriptor" wouldn't increase the damage of a magic item created using fireball, because that item's effect is not a spell; shadow pounce's unusually broad wording includes spells but also all "effects". however, something that, like shadow pounce, increased the damage of all "effects" with the fire descriptor would work with a magic item created using fireball. part of my hesitation is that I don't know if that would create any untoward interactions — can you think of any?

[Paragon]

shadow pounce only works with effects that have the teleportation descriptor (for example, shadow jump qualifies because it is based on dimension door, which has this descriptor).

a lot of people ignore this line but I wanted to look at it in more detail, because it forces us to ask whether magic items (that are not actual spell activation or spell trigger items) can trigger it. take some of the shadow pouncer's traditional favorite items, anklets of translocation and boots of swift passage from MIC. both of these items are created using the dimension door spell, but is that enough for us to say that they are "an effect with the teleportation descriptor"?

I'm inclined to say yes, and it's because magic items have the spell school aura and caster level of the spells used to create them. that suggests to me that their effects are still "based on" the source spells in a way analogous to how the shadow jump ability is based on dimension door, and even though shadow jump is (su) and doesn't work exactly like the spell.

I think that makes sense, but I'm not 100% on it.

to be clear, under this reading, something that increased the damage of "spells with the fire descriptor" wouldn't increase the damage of a magic item created using fireball, because that item's effect is not a spell; shadow pounce's unusually broad wording includes spells but also all "effects". however, something that, like shadow pounce, increased the damage of all "effects" with the fire descriptor would work with a magic item created using fireball. part of my hesitation is that I don't know if that would create any untoward interactions — can you think of any?

The only part I can find some semblance of RAW for making this argument is "In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. " If they do cast or replicate then you can make the argument about the effect I think.

A great find for Shadow Pounce is the Leaping Flame maneuver, letting you full attack when it's not even your turn

[Elves]

If they do cast or replicate then you can make the argument about the effect I think.

The reading I suggested is that because an item's magical aura is the aura of the spell used to create it, including spell school and caster level, you're essentially detecting that spell, and that this shows us the magic item's effect is 'based on' that spell effect in a way similar to how shadow pounce apparently qualifies for being 'based on' dimension door. Which is supported by the fact that placing a spell into a wondrous item works the same as placing it into an actual spell trigger item.


This issue is a symptom of the fact that magic items inherit spell school from their source spells, but not explicitly subschool or descriptors; this interaction is an example of why they should probably also be considered to inherit subschool and descriptors and I'm not especially bothered by ruling that they do.

It's also an example of why teleportation should be a movement mode like in 4e rather than something governed by a descriptor — and colloquially I think we all pretty much treat it that way, with the word "teleport" indicating a [teleportation] effect. For example, if you had a su ability "teleport 10 feet" with no spell reference, should it work with shadow pounce? Clearly yes. In early 3e most su/sla abilities mimicked or referenced a spell, and the rules for descriptors (among other things) are written for that paradigm — as spell rules, rather than general rules, even though they should be general.

A great find for Shadow Pounce is the Leaping Flame maneuver, letting you full attack when it's not even your turn

And the move action teleport is at the same level (5th). There's some interesting synergy between swordsage and shadowlord because assassin's stance can also fulfill the shadowlord SA requirement.

What's interesting about maneuvers is they're examples of supernatural abilities that actually have descriptors, even though descriptors are supposed to be for spells. So it shows how the game generalized the keyword system over time, from initially being a spell-only thing.

[Paragon]

The reading I suggested is that because an item's magical aura is the aura of the spell used to create it, including spell school and caster level, you're essentially detecting that spell, and that this shows us the magic item's effect is 'based on' that spell effect in a way similar to how shadow pounce apparently qualifies for being 'based on' dimension door. Which is supported by the fact that placing a spell into a wondrous item works the same as placing it into an actual spell trigger item.

So the fact that a Spell craft check to see an ongoing effect of teleportation would tell you what spell it stems from should be enough to conclude it has the Teleportation decriptor ? I can see that argument yeah.

And the move action teleport is at the same level (5th). There's some interesting synergy between swordsage and shadowlord because assassin's stance can also fulfill the shadowlord SA requirement.

What's interesting about maneuvers is they're examples of supernatural abilities that actually have descriptors, even though descriptors are supposed to be for spells. So it shows how the game generalized the keyword system over time, from initially being a spell-only thing.

A maneuver usable by swordsages is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description so it's even nuttier than you thought it was haha the Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink are all missing the "this is Su" part so they default to Ex as [Teleportation] !

[Zarvistic]

Slightly different question but on this same topic: I wonder if the spell Stand from PH2 would work? Seemed interesting as a level 1 spell as you can drop prone for free and it's immediate action to cast.

[Rebel7284]

"Effect" is not strictly defined anywhere and it doesn't help that the spell teleport, the action to teleport and the teleportation descriptor all share essentially the same name.

I say if the item explicitly references a spell with a descriptor such as saying "as dimention door" or "as teleport" it definitely works. However, when it just says teleport, it's less clear. I have some concerns about using the descriptors of prerequisite spells since, while they are often thematically linked to the items, they can be somewhat arbitrary, especially for items that create unusual effects.

I do think that for Shadow Pounce specifically, it's often easier to assume that the effect and the descriptor go hand in hand, the alternative seems needlessly pedantic and doesn't necessarily help balance things. I am cautious of trying to generalize it, however.

Slightly different question but on this same topic: I wonder if the spell Stand from PH2 would work? Seemed interesting as a level 1 spell as you can drop prone for free and it's immediate action to cast.

Shadow Pounce says " he may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation."

So does Stand "do" a teleportation? Does it teleport the target from prone to upright? Or does that wording in shadow pounce mean the completing of the teleportation typed effect? There are some grey areas, but I think overall, it probably works, although it wouldn't be unreasonable to use the slight ambiguity + power level in this context to justify a ban from the DM perspective.

[Elves]

Slightly different question but on this same topic: I wonder if the spell Stand from PH2 would work? Seemed interesting as a level 1 spell as you can drop prone for free and it's immediate action to cast.

Unambiguously yes, all shadow pounce asks is to use an effect with the descriptor. The standpounce is really funny. Other immediate action ports I know of are the shadow blink shadowcaster mystery, leaping flame maneuver, and the shadow cloak from Drow of the Underdark, which is only 5k but can only be triggered when you get attacked. A wand of stand in a wand chamber is cheaper and more reliable. All you need are the UMD ranks to use it and the Concentration ranks to defensive cast. Defensive casting is such a bad rule lol, it trivializes one of the major disadvantages of spellcasting.

[Khatoblepas]

Stand surely does work, but if you only use it yourself, you're just using an immediate action to get a full attack and you only get one of those. If you give a wand of Stand to your familiar, your followers, your (awakened) donkey, your cohort, your other party members, that's when Stand becomes truly dangerous, because you're exchanging immediate actions that won't be used for more full attacks.

Though the imagery of the shadowpouncer deliberately falling down over and over again so they can teleport is very silly.

[Elves]

If you give a wand of Stand to your familiar, your followers, your (awakened) donkey, your cohort, your other party members, that's when Stand becomes truly dangerous, because you're exchanging immediate actions that won't be used for more full attacks.

You have to fall back down between uses though and you can only fall prone on your own turn (you can only take free actions on your turn unless specified otherwise). I suppose you could make this work with readied actions, at which point it becomes pretty ridiculous — however, since readying is always a standard action, regardless of what action you are readying, they are exchanging their standard for you to get a FRA, which is...still ridiculous but not quite as ridiculous as if it were an immediate for them.

The only legal hitch I know of here is that you can't technically ready immediate actions. But you can take immediate actions as a swift action on your turn, and you can ready swift actions, so it seems like it could work. On the other hand, an immediate is only a swift if you use it on your own turn, and if you ready it to use it when it is not your turn, it would no longer be a swift. So I could also see a ruling that readying immediate doesn't work on those grounds.
(stupid, never mind)

In terms of the ought, I think we all realize that shadow pounce should be based off "when you teleport" rather than when you use a [teleportation] descriptor effect. And let's be frank, it should probably only work when you teleport as a standard or FRA.

[Chronos]

You could still attack, then fall prone, then telestand, then attack again, then fall again on your turn, to be ready for when your familiar telestands you.

[Khatoblepas]

You have to fall back down between uses though and you can only fall prone on your own turn (you can only take free actions on your turn unless specified otherwise). I suppose you could make this work with readied actions, at which point it becomes pretty ridiculous — however, since readying is always a standard action, regardless of what action you are readying, they are exchanging their standard for you to get a FRA, which is...still ridiculous but not quite as ridiculous as if it were an immediate for them.

It'd still be your turn, though. It'd go:


Standard Action: activate Blink Shirt
> Full Attack
Free Action: Fall Prone
Swift Action: Stand
> Full Attack
Then repeat this for every companion with a wand:
Free Action: Fall Prone
Companion Immediate Action: Stand
> Full Attack
Then:
Move Action: activate Dimension Jumper
> Full Attack

You don't end your turn until you're finished doing actions, and immediate actions don't end your turn, they interrupt at any time. You don't need to ready them. You just keep falling over. So long as you delay your turn until after your companions and your companions haven't used a swift action, they will be able to perform an immediate action.

[Remuko]

(you can only take free actions on your turn unless specified otherwise)

where is that stated? i couldnt remember such a thing and tried looking it up and none of the info i saw about free actions mentioned such a thing.

[Elves]

You could still attack, then fall prone, then telestand, then attack again, then fall again on your turn, to be ready for when your familiar telestands you.

It'd still be your turn, though. It'd go:

Yeah, my bad. Pretty crazy stuff. Another reason to make shadow pounce key off teleportation itself rather than the descriptor. And like I said above, I think we all know it should be limited to when you teleport as a standard or FRA.

where is that stated? i couldnt remember such a thing and tried looking it up and none of the info i saw about free actions mentioned such a thing.

"You can perform one or more free actions on your turn" - RC. And talking is specifically called out as a free action you can do even when it isn't your turn, which tells us that exceptional wording like that is necessary for that to be the case.

[Remuko]

"You can perform one or more free actions on your turn" - RC. And talking is specifically called out as a free action you can do even when it isn't your turn, which tells us that exceptional wording like that is necessary for that to be the case.

Ah yes the RC. i should have thought to check there. thanks for the answer.

[Chronos]

For comparison, the Sun School feat (at least its third option) is similar to Shadow Pounce, but only allows a single attack. But it phrases its condition as "To use this maneuver, you must move adjacent to a foe instantaneously, as with a dimension door spell or the monk's abundant step class feature.". That seems pretty clear that it doesn't matter how the instantaneous movement works, or if it has the [teleportation] descriptor (but it probably wouldn't work with Stand).

[CactusAir]

For comparison, the Sun School feat (at least its third option) is similar to Shadow Pounce, but only allows a single attack. But it phrases its condition as "To use this maneuver, you must move adjacent to a foe instantaneously, as with a dimension door spell or the monk's abundant step class feature.". That seems pretty clear that it doesn't matter how the instantaneous movement works, or if it has the [teleportation] descriptor (but it probably wouldn't work with Stand).

So in a 3.5/PF game, combining Sun School with Path of War (PF ToB equivalent) content: Veiled Moon Style (Feat) and The Ladder (Fool's Errand Stance), you can telestrike [1/2 you ranks in climb] times per move action. at level 9 (the earliest you can have this combo), that's 4 attacks at full BAB as a move action.

[Elves]

So in a 3.5/PF game, combining Sun School with Path of War (PF ToB equivalent) content: Veiled Moon Style (Feat) and The Ladder (Fool's Errand Stance), you can telestrike [1/2 you ranks in climb] times per move action. at level 9 (the earliest you can have this combo), that's 4 attacks at full BAB as a move action.

That's pretty funny although note that Path of War is not official Paizo content, it is third party (AKA, homebrew with cover art).

[Khatoblepas]

Sun School might be an interesting feat to pair with a Shadowpouncer, since it gives you an extra attack at full BAB each time to move and teleport. The other application of the feat is promising too:

Inexorable Progress of Dawn: To use this maneuver, you must hit the same foe with the first two unarmed attacks from a flurry of blows. If you do, your foe must move back 5 feet, and you may move 5 feet forward if you wish.

If you get 4-8 full attacks per round, you could potentially push an enemy very very far. Because a flurry of blows is keyed to doing a full attack action:

A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

Which is kind of funny, I think.

[CactusAir]

That's pretty funny although note that Path of War is not official Paizo content, it is third party (AKA, homebrew with cover art).

In the year of our lord 2024, is is still necessary to disclaimer that?

[Chronos]

I'm still not sure what "third party" really means, in the context of Pathfinder, given some of the ridiculous homebrew that makes it into the Pathfinder SRD.