How to kill a dracolich ...

[KorvinStarmast]

A draco lich has the undead type. Radiant damage is probably as good of a way to get at a draco lich as one could get. Here is our plan. (Level 8)

1. Holy Water does 2d6 radiant damage. Costs 25 GP (or it takes "X time to craft and 25 Gp during down time).
2. A typical beer keg is 22.5 gallons. (Don't get ahead of me! )
3. 180 pints is 22.5 gallons. Costs 4500 gold.
4. Fill the keg with holy water. (Added cost to clean out/cleanse keg so that it's a good container.) Affix with 'flip top lid" (Pay artificer 10-30 gold, or another craftsman, and practice a bit).
5. Keg (about 8.34 pounds per gallon) weight 187 pounds (water) and 10-20 pounds (material)
6. Barbarian has STR of 18. No problem carrying the keg.
7. Sorcerer or Warlock has Dimension Door Spell.
8. Find Draco lich (be very sneaky, druid casts pass without trace, etc). and arrive well outside of draco lich breath range, and for sure beyond the 60 spell range of counter spell in case dracolich has counter spell and is a spell caster. Either stay outside the 120 fear range, or have cleric cast the fear prevention spell. (Protection from evil and good prevents undead from frightening our barbarian).
9. Barbarian readies an action to pour holy water onto dragon. Trigger is "when I arrive on top of dragon after Warlock casts dimension door"
10. Warlock casts dimension door. (He can bring one willing creature with him. )
11. Barbarian pour the holy water onto the draco lich.

2d6 x 180 radiant damage done to draco lich. average of 1260. (and if you roll all of the dice, average will be close to the damage done)

12. Estimate that a draco lich has more than 4500 GP in it's lair, so there should be a profit in this operation.

13. Where are the holes in the plan? (And there is some detail on 'interact with object' as regards the flip top lid...)

We can probably get away with a smaller keg, 13-15 gallons, but if the rolls are really low ... 360 is the minimum if all dice come up as a 1 for the 22.5 gallon keg ...

[Amnestic]

13. Where are the holes in the plan? (And there is some detail on 'interact with object' as regards the flip top lid...)

The same as anything that relies on "stacking up a bunch of [consumable] to unleash all at once". That being that it relies entirely on DM buy-in to say "yes, it works like that". You're stepping outside of the rules, so you should be asking them.

There's nothing to say a keg of holy water does a multiplication of the amount of vials to make fill it. That's adding "maths" ("2d6 per lb") to the abstract. It's the same as saying "okay, if a greatsword weighs this much, and deals 2d6, then if I tie two greatswords together, can I deal 4d6? It's twice the weight!"

Maybe you pour your holy water (with an improvised ranged attack roll) and the majority of the holy water just sloughs off, because the dracolich only has so much surface area to cover and the force of the pour means most of it is wasted, so instead of doing 360d6, it does, I dunno, 8d6, equivalent to about four vials. There's only so much area you can cover with one keg's opening after all - it's not like it covers the entire creature, you're basically just soaking its toes.

Maybe the DM says yeah, okay, but you can only get so much water out per turn, so you deal 8d6, and the keg lasts 3 turns as you try to get all the water out, so 24d6 over 3 turns, if you hit all three times.

Maybe the DM says "holy water's damage doesn't come from its amount, but its inherent purity, thus no matter how much holy water you apply at once, it only deals 2d6 damage per application".

Maybe the DM says "there isn't that much holy water in town, you will need to invest weeks of preparation to do this, are you sure that's what you want to do".

Maybe the DM will say yeah sure, you can one-shot it, better hope you don't whiff the attack roll! He's got an AC of 19 and the barbarian's improvised roll is going to be...what, +2? +5 if they're a tavern brawler? Hope the dice are with you.

None of the above is wrong/right, but they are things that are holes in the plan, such as it is.

[RSP]

The same as anything that relies on "stacking up a bunch of [consumable] to unleash all at once". That being that it relies entirely on DM buy-in to say "yes, it works like that". You're stepping outside of the rules, so you should be asking them.

There's nothing to say a keg of holy water does a multiplication of the amount of vials to make fill it. That's adding "maths" ("2d6 per lb") to the abstract. It's the same as saying "okay, if a greatsword weighs this much, and deals 2d6, then if I tie two greatswords together, can I deal 4d6? It's twice the weight!"

Maybe you pour your holy water (with an improvised ranged attack roll) and the majority of the holy water just sloughs off, because the dracolich only has so much surface area to cover and the force of the pour means most of it is wasted, so instead of doing 360d6, it does, I dunno, 8d6, equivalent to about four vials. There's only so much area you can cover with one keg's opening after all - it's not like it covers the entire creature, you're basically just soaking its toes.

Maybe the DM says yeah, okay, but you can only get so much water out per turn, so you deal 8d6, and the keg lasts 3 turns as you try to get all the water out, so 24d6 over 3 turns, if you hit all three times.

Maybe the DM says "holy water's damage doesn't come from its amount, but its inherent purity, thus no matter how much holy water you apply at once, it only deals 2d6 damage per application".

Maybe the DM says "there isn't that much holy water in town, you will need to invest weeks of preparation to do this, are you sure that's what you want to do".

Maybe the DM will say yeah sure, you can one-shot it, better hope you don't whiff the attack roll! He's got an AC of 19 and the barbarian's improvised roll is going to be...what, +2? +5 if they're a tavern brawler? Hope the dice are with you.

None of the above is wrong/right, but they are things that are holes in the plan, such as it is.

Surface area should matter, but doesn’t in 5e (or at least doesn’t matter the way it should). A Huge creature walking through a Wall of Fire takes the same damage as a tiny creature, even though there’s so much more area exposed to fire.
By the way, this is agreeing with your post that there’s plenty of ways a DM can (legitimately) rule regarding this situation.

I second run it by them.

[KorvinStarmast]

The same as anything that relies on "stacking up a bunch of [consumable] to unleash all at once". That being that it relies entirely on DM buy-in to say "yes, it works like that". You're stepping outside of the rules, so you should be asking them.

No, we are not stepping outside the rules. 1. DM describes the environment. 2. Players describe actions. 3. DM narratesresult.

There's nothing to say a keg of holy water does a multiplication of the amount of vials to make fill it.

Nor does there need to be, but apparently you have problems with that amount of simple arithmetic.

Maybe you pour your holy water (with an improvised ranged attack roll)

No, it is interact with an object. And it is not a ranged attack.

As an action, you can splash the contents of this flask onto a creature within 5 feet of you

the warlock DD's the Barbarian adjacent to (or on top of) the draco lich. That's right from how holy water works.

But I agree with a part of your post. The mechanics of the game, if one is going RAW, have a potential gap in terms of scaling ...

and the majority of the holy water just sloughs off,

No. Look at how big a draco lich is.
But as I think through this, an ability check like sleight of hand might be needed to see how well the "pour" went. Something like that. Or roll a percentile die and see how effective the pour is.

All said and done, the DM needs to make a ruling. One thing that I think ought to have happen is the DM offers the draco lich a saving throw for half damage, to reflect an effective, or ineffective pour, which the draco lich probalby makes since it has 3 legendary saves per day, so damage most likely is halved in any case. That is less dice rolling, and more or less what a saving throw represents in the first place (if we read the rules on saving throws and on magic in the PHB).

your holes are "meta" so not that useful, but any DM will take a look at that prep and probably point out "not gonna work like that" if they don't care for it.

[Dr.Samurai]

13. Where are the holes in the plan?

The barrel.

It's called a bunghole.

[JackPhoenix]

No, we are not stepping outside the rules. 1. DM describes the environment. 2. Players describe actions. 3. DM narratesresult.

That's the point. The entire post is meaningless, it's all up to the DM, the math doesn't matter and has no basis in actual RAW.

[KorvinStarmast]

The barrel.

It's called a bunghole.

But we don't use that, hence the flip top lid.

That's the point. The entire post is meaningless, it's all up to the DM, the math doesn't matter and has no basis in actual RAW.

Self inflicted RAW paralysis isn't a good look.

[Amnestic]

No, we are not stepping outside the rules. 1. DM describes the environment. 2. Players describe actions. 3. DM narratesresult.

You're stepping outside of the prescribed rules ("Here is what a flask of holy water does") into things not directly covered ("Here is what a KEG of holy water does"). There is nothing for that.

Nor does there need to be, but apparently you have problems with that amount of simple arithmetic.

This is needlessly hostile. I would ask you tone your tone down.

No, it is interact with an object. And it is not a ranged attack.

Yes, it is. My emphasis:-

As an action, you can splash the contents of this flask onto a creature within 5 feet of you or throw it up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact. In either case, make a ranged attack against a target creature, treating the holy water as an improvised weapon. If the target is a fiend or undead, it takes 2d6 radiant damage. A cleric or paladin may create holy water by performing a special ritual. The ritual takes 1 hour to perform, uses 25 gp worth of powdered silver, and requires the caster to expend a 1st-level spell slot.

Why would your DM go "okay, splashing a flask of holy water is 2d6 on a successful improvised ranged attack roll" and then ignore the attack roll part but let you stack up the flask volume*2d6? Take the whole item or nothing at all.

Unless your DM decides otherwise.

They certainly DM could say "oh, actually, it's 10d6 or half on a dex save, DC based on proficiency with improvised weapons and your dex bonus". Maybe they would do that, but as written applying holy water is an improvised ranged weapon attack, and it's entirely reasonable for a DM to maintain that between flask and keg. Certainly there's nothing to indicate that it's an auto-hit or anything of the sort.

No. Look at how big a draco lich is.

And look at how small a keghole is in comparison. You're targeting a single square of a Huge creature.

your holes are "meta" so not that useful, but any DM will take a look at that prep and probably point out "not gonna work like that" if they don't care for it.

They're the exact same thoughts that I, as a DM, might have if my players come to me with this plan.

But if you want my actual ruling I'd tell my party "You don't actually want this to work, because if it does, you might see the enemy start lobbing barrels of 360d6 acid at you". I'm fine with making houserules for 'player creativity' but they should always be aware that the enemies can do the same thing because they share the same universe.

Chances are a sense of self preservation would have them go "yeah, 360d6 for one barrel is probably out of line - we don't really want to get oneshot". If they wanted to explore alternative uses for holy water (eg. imbued arrows that deal radiant damage, blessed oils that reduce undead AC+saves on melee hits, temporarily imbued spell focuses that give a bless/bane effect on spells cast with them) then that'd be something I can get behind, and isn't probably quite as ridiculous if the enemy does eventually get some of their own.

[JNAProductions]

But we don't use that, hence the flip top lid.

Self inflicted RAW paralysis isn't a good look.

Please quote the rules that state "If you use twice the amount of Holy Water, it does twice the amount of damage."
Because I don't see it anywhere in the PHB or DMG. Nor Xanathar's, nor any of the other books.

[Dr.Samurai]

I think saying it has no basis is a bit off.

Presumably, if you throw 100 flasks of holy water at a creature, it will deal equivalent to 100 times the normal damage of a single flask (assuming they all hit). In this case, you've taken all of the amount and it put into one dispensing device, to avoid numerous attack rolls.

Unless you assume that the flask is part of the radiant damage, then it isn't so out of bounds to assume that 1 pint of holy water does y damage, therefore x number of pints does xy damage.

I get that the rules don't say that explicitly, but let's not treat this like Korvin and his team pulled these numbers out of... their bunghole, so to speak .

EDIT:

@Korvin, are there measures a creature can take to prevent themselves from radiant damage? Or holy water? I'm thinking like spells or perhaps a magic item the dragon might have in its hoard that would make sense for it to use given that it is undead.

Also, I am not sure that Pass Without Trace will guarantee stealth. Not because your rolls won't be high enough, but don't dragons also have special senses like Blindsight that will sense the party approaching?

[Unoriginal]

I agree with what the others said, how well that plan would work is 100% DM dependent, and the ruling they make would be just as valid as any other ruling on the question done by any other DM.

And I speak as someone who actually *did* the "pour a ton of flasks of damaging substances into a bigger recipient and break it on the enemy" plan as a player at an actual table.

Self inflicted RAW paralysis isn't a good look.

I have no idea why you're being so hostile, KorvinStarmast.

[Amnestic]

I think saying it has no basis is a bit off.

Presumably, if you throw 100 flasks of holy water at a creature, it will deal equivalent to 100 times the normal damage of a single flask (assuming they all hit). In this case, you've taken all of the amount and it put into one dispensing device, to avoid numerous attack rolls.

It isn't without any basis, but it simply shouldn't be allowed in such a linear and overwhelming fashion.

If it works once, why not do it again? Is there any reason we shouldn't start hauling barrels of acid and dunking them on the enemies for instant kills? Their wealth-by-level for rewards will generally pay for itself, as noted, if you're only targeting bosses.
And, as noted, "if it works, why isn't the enemy using it?"

Even if you scrap the keg from the equation and go more..."reasonable", it starts getting weird. If I just tie a dozen acid vials together and toss them for 24d6 acid, for instance. Even this much, at 300gp a pop, will generally be worth it, since it does around the same damage as Disintegrate. Yeah, you won't use it on every enemy, but anything even remotely dangerous, hey, break out the Delete Enemy button.

To me it feels similar to the idea of "can I drop an elephant to do a bunch of extra fall damage when it falls from super high up on someone? Surely an elephant would do more fall damage than 1d6/10ft, and wouldn't be capped! The standard falling rules are just for PCs, not elephants!" And like, yeah, probably, but again, do you want to open that can of worms? Is that the game we want to be playing where we're chasing down the easiest way to multiply an arbitrary diceroll of damage? Let me track down some orbital tungsten rods, like the good ol' days...

There are "in universe" explanations for why it shouldn't work so directly if a hypothetical DM wanted to appeal to them - surface area being a key one. If I coat your arm in acid, is adding more acid to the same spot gonna do anything else? A little, maybe, but not really. It's gonna roll off because your arm's already covered in acid. So do you start scaling back damage the more you add? 2d6 for the first flask, 1d6 for the second, 1d4 for the one after? 1 for the one after that, and after 4 flasks at once there's no additional benefit? Could do.

Like I said: I think the DM encouraging alternate uses of holy water that synergise more with how characters generally play is healthier than chasing this idea.

[RSP]

I think a barrel of holy water on a huge creature is way less exposure to that creature than say having a medium creature exposed to fire or acid that covers their entire 5’ cube they’re standing in.

Also, a lot of the water, if not most, will run off without making contacting with the creature. Take a big barrel of water and dump it on someone. Most will end up on the ground. Some will get absorbed by clothes, but I doubt the dracolich is wearing clothes.

Now take that bucket and pour it on a large garage or small house. How much of that structure actually got wet?

If a medium creature getting fully exposed to acid does 12d8 damage (adult black dragon breath), what would a huge creature getting less exposed take? Less? Maybe.

Vitriolic Sphere might be closer to the level of exposure: 10d4 acid damage.

Either is save for half.

Those could be better ways to view the issue, or at least alternate ways.

But as pointed out: as a player, are you okay with “okay the trap goes off and a barrel of acid falls on you [rolls 300d6]. You take 1050 damage.”

Is that fair for the DM to do to the players?

Or rather, is that fair as a trap to be used against PCs entering someone else’s lair/castle/hideout/etc?

[KorvinStarmast]

This is needlessly hostile. I would ask you tone your tone down.

Your response wasn't as pointless as Jack's was, but it missed the point and the spirit of the question. So I'll ask you, in turn, not to answer the way you did since this is a game played for fun.

And look at how small a keghole is in comparison.

Go back to my OP, please, and completely read the bit about getting the flip top to the barrel made by an artificer.

That complaint registered, as I read through your initial answer what I arrived at was that this needs to be an ability check under the basis of basic rules 1, 2, and 3.

With that in mind, I also arrived at proposing to the DM that this be done as sleight of hand check, with DC's set to govern 'how well do you pull this off.' More or less a degrees of success thing.

DC 30: perfect, roll damage, dracolich rolls a save (or uses a legendary save) for half damage
DC 25: 3/4 rolled damage, and saves as above
DC 20: 1/2 rolled damage, and saves as above
DC 15: 1/4 rolled damage, and saves as above
DC 10: 1/8 rolled damage, and save as above.

With a bard, this could go well, but without one, degrees of "not quite what we had hoped for. Now what? We just made him mad" becomes a part of the possible outcomes. And that's part of the fun. "What could possibly go wrong?"

Those all reflect things like dragon twitches as the first wave of holy water hits him, barbarian's foot slips, and any of a hundred of 'fog of war' things that all die rolls all take into consideration.

I have no idea why you're being so hostile, KorvinStarmast.

Because the answers were by and large useless. (Dr Samurai's first one was funny).

As I was shopping with my wife, I came up with some actual "holes in the plan" which include:

Draco lich's lair may have no region with 120+ feet of unobstructed line of sight to him.
If in dim light or darkness, warlock or sorcerer has to have devil's sight, or equivalent, to even see where he is to get the DD bit to work. If darkness is cast ...
Depending on initiative, dragon may move or take a legendary action before the sorcerer, which fires off a dragon ability, or the 120' radius frighten ability triggers... the barbarian may be fine (due to the cleric casting prot from evil and good) but the Sorcerer likely is frightened, so he can't DD to the draco lich.

There's probably a great deal more in terms of "holes in the plan" to include minions and various lair actions, but those were the kinds of holes in the plan I was seeking.

Not the "that isn't RAW the way I read it" noise that I received.

[JNAProductions]

It isn’t RAW, though.
By RAW, Holy Water does 2d6 radiant damage to some creatures, at the cost of the water itself, an action, and a successful improvised attack roll.

You can extrapolate that it scales 1-to-1 with volume, but nothing in the rules say you have to scale that way.

Edit: I’ll also ask, how would you feel if this tactic was performed on your PC, with Acid instead of Holy Water?

[Dr.Samurai]

I think Korvin understands that the DM has to adjudicate how this will all resolve. I think he’s asking more about actual in game stuff that he hasn’t considered within the power of the party to deal with.

Korvin, as I edited in my last post and you just mentioned, you may not be able to stealth all the way. Do you and your party know the Draco’s abilities in game?

[KorvinStarmast]

I think Korvin understands that the DM has to adjudicate how this will all resolve. I think he’s asking more about actual in game stuff that he hasn’t considered within the power of the party to deal with.

Korvin, as I edited in my last post and you just mentioned, you may not be able to stealth all the way. Do you and your party know the Draco’s abilities in game?

Hmm, lore checks have not yet been accounted for, so that's an open question at this point.

Yes, the "PWT" may not cover the entire need to sneak up on a dracolich.

[JackPhoenix]

Self inflicted RAW paralysis isn't a good look.

The problem is you do not follow the procedure. What you're doing is 1) DM describes the enviroment, 2) Players describe actions, 3) The players also decide how much damage does the "exploit" inflicts, while selectively abusing or ignoring RAW however it is convenient for you without the DM's input and 4) The DM just accepts this crap and congratulate you how clever you are.
Pointing out that 3) is not how the game works is, in fact, a valid answer to the question of "where are the holes in the plan?" Unless you do get a statement from your GM saying that yes, the unnumbered step between 11. and 12. in the OP is how it's gonna work, everything else is utterly irrelevant.

But if you want actual holes, the dracolich has a pile of dragon corpses stowed next to its phylactery, making the whole thing a colossal waste of time. Or the "dracolich" is actually an illusion to get fools waste resources for nothing. Or sleeps under a giant umbrella with no space to teleport under it. Or there's not enough holy water (or silver) available. Or the gods decide to smite anyone who tries. Or the dracolichs sits in an area of Forbiddance/Hallow/arbitrary effect preventing teleportation.
As for your holes, DD has a range of 500' and no line of sight requirements. As long as you know where exactly it is, you can start from way beyond the DL's range, assuming there's bit of empty space anywhere in that distance.

[Amnestic]

Your response wasn't as pointless as Jack's was, but it missed the point and the spirit of the question.

Then I would ask you to be clearer on the 'spirit' next time, instead of being needlessly antagonistic. Nowhere in the initial post do you suggest the DM has okayed these numbers or this concept, and their approval - since you are deviating from the prescribed rules - is the absolute lynchpin. Of course it's the first hole I'm going to point out, especially when each step of the plan is gleefully going over the numbers instead of "What countermeasures might a dracolich have against being telefragged?"

On top of the above things mentioned by JackPhoenix, if the Dracolich has some sort of counter to Surprise (weapon of warning is Uncommon, extremely probable for a dracolich to have access to) then the stealth is negated and it's a contest of initiative.

If it has cast (Un)Hallow, one of the effects chosen could be to unholy any holy water brought into the area, making it deal necrotic instead.

So I'll ask you, in turn, not to answer the way you did since this is a game played for fun.

Yeah, it is, and maybe the DM wanted to have a cool dracolich encounter that they would have had fun playing, not play economics and scale simulator. It is a game played for fun, but that doesn't mean "oh, I can just get away with anything in the name of fun".

Would you say "Yes spellcaster, of course you can expend multiple slots on the same action in order to linearly increase the damage of your fireball" if a player proposed it to you under the pretense of 'it's fun'?

[Bobthewizard]

13. Where are the holes in the plan?

By RAW, a keg, or even an ocean, of holy water does no damage at all. Only a flask of holy water does damage, and only after a successful ranged attack.

I would let the keg of holy water do 2d6 radiant damage per ranged attack action, but would allow the barbarian to make that attack every round. Any excess water they try to use each round runs over the scales and splashes harmlessly on the ground.

[Vorpalchicken]

People have been trying the barrel of holy water trick since the 70s. That's why Gygax et al. ruled that once the holy water leaves the vial it is no longer potent enough to harm undead.
Another point to consider is total emersion in a lake of acid simply does 4d10 acid damage. Not 2d6 times the total volume of acid/the volume of an acid vial. 4d10 Radiant for your barrel (save for half) sounds about right.

[KorvinStarmast]

But if you want actual holes,
the dracolich has a pile of dragon corpses stowed next to its phylactery, making the whole thing a colossal waste of time.

And the PCs would not know that. +1

Or the "dracolich" is actually an illusion to get fools waste resources for nothing.

DM does not run ToH stuff.

Or sleeps under a giant umbrella with no space to teleport under it.

Lair has low ceiling is less silly, but that's an issue. (See below).

Or there's not enough holy water (or silver) available.

The actual decision by the DM has been that it will take too long (the one-shot has time pressure) to get more than 20 flasks on hand before we have to go and deal with the draco lich. You can't buy holy water (of the adventuring kind) like a twelve pack of beer. And, there isn't enough time to try and craft more. (There is apparently enough silver, though).

Or the gods decide to smite anyone who tries.

Our DM doesn't do Rocks fall and everyone dies stuff.

Or the dracolichs sits in an area of Forbiddance/Hallow/arbitrary effect preventing teleportation.

Hmm, Forbiddance blocks DD? Yeah, that's a substantial hole. Won't know if he has it or not.

As for your holes, DD has a range of 500' and no line of sight requirements. As long as you know where exactly it is, you can start from way beyond the DL's range, assuming there's bit of empty space anywhere in that distance.

That's the core problem in the first place. We have to find the dracolich (it's a sage/lore thing that has identified the villain), but where he is (in the tactical sense) is unclear. ("Somewhere up in the elder hills is a cavern..."). The idea was to be prepared...perhaps something along the way is supposed to be found that helps us deal with it ...

[Envyus]

If only it was a ghost dragon then you could just make a vial into a flail and hit it repeatedly.

[da newt]

A ranged attack from 5' away is rolled at DISADV. You are likely to miss.

"As an action, you can splash the contents of this flask onto a creature within 5 feet of you or throw it up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact. In either case, make a ranged attack against a target creature, treating the holy water as an improvised weapon. If the target is a fiend or undead, it takes 2d6 radiant damage."



As a DM I'd be very leery to rule that the damage of holy water (or any other substance) scales linearly with volume and ignores any action economy cost. I'd probably rule something like a gallon = 2 flasks of damage, 10 gallon = 4 flasks, etc ... or each 5' square area = 2d6 damage.



Besides everyone knows the RIGHT way to take out a dracolich is to build a simulacrum out of frozen holy water and have it DD into the BBEG's mouth and climb down it's throat ...

[KorvinStarmast]

Besides everyone knows the RIGHT way to take out a dracolich is to build a simulacrum out of frozen holy water and have it DD into the BBEG's mouth and climb down it's throat ...

I love that idea, however, with the party at level 8 this might be well beyond their reach. (And I am getting a frowny face, one of the players seems to be backing out... )