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Thread: Any way to level drain undead?
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2024-02-10, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Any way to level drain undead?
Besides Thought Bottle and Undead Batteries from Dragonlance, are there any way for an undead to lose HD? Trying to figure out some early entry shenanigans.
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2024-02-10, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Any way to level drain undead?
Spark of Life (Libris Mortis) can give undead a vunerability to energy drain:
For the duration of the spell, the undead creature is subject to extra damage from critical hits (and thus sneak attacks), nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion, and damage to its physical ability scores (though it still lacks a Constitution score and thus can't take Constitution damage) as if it were alive.Last edited by Khatoblepas; 2024-02-10 at 03:16 PM.
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2024-02-10, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Any way to level drain undead?
The index of Monster Manual 3 includes an ability called "Energy Charge", which is the opposite of Energy Drain and gives positive levels to living characters, but negative levels to undead ones. Sadly, there is no creature that actually has this ability.
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2024-02-10, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Any way to level drain undead?
Void Strike - 13th-level Void Disciple PrC CF - bestows 1d4 negative levels which are from void (not negative energy), thus - can affect Undead just fine
Another way: Revive Undead spell restores destroyed Undead without 1 level or HD...
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2024-02-10, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-10, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Any way to level drain undead?
Would regular negative levels that don't depend on level drain work? An Evil-aligned undead creature is still subject to negative levels granted by holding a holy weapon, for instance; if the undead is [psionic], the psibane weapon property would do the same. Also, if you could somehow make an undead creature no longer immune to your [mind-affecting] spells, the psionic power mindwipe should work just fine. Also, the Song of the Dead feat, if you can find other [mind-affecting] negative level spells that don't involve negative energy. There's also the Threnodic Spell feat, from PF.
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2024-02-10, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-10, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Any way to level drain undead?
That seems like a pretty dubious interpretation, it specifies that it doesn't help undead, not that it overcomes their immunity to negative levels.
Just had a look, it isn't. The consensus seems to be that it's probably an ability they gave to a monster which got cut out of MM3 before publication. I'd never heard of it before today either.
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2024-02-10, 08:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-10, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Any way to level drain undead?
Energy Drain =/= negative levels =/= permanent level loss. "Level drain" often gets used for all 3, but it's (frustratingly) not quite that simple. Undead have 3 separate layers of defences against losing a HD or level: immunity to Energy Drain specifically, a strongly implied immunity to negative levels, and immunity to anything that takes a Fort save. You have to get past all three - because only permanent level loss removes a hit dice.
Spark of Life removes immunity to Energy Drain, but it doesn't change the creature's type. And the Undead type has "Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). With some very rare exceptions, negative levels only rip an actual HD or level off when the creature fails a Fort save. Undead don't make Fort saves, Spark of Life does nothing about that.
As for how negative levels affect undead, that's an even stupider and less certain situation. Because, again, all the Undead type says is that "Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures." It doesn't specifically say as such that a negative level is a negative energy effect (though that's the most common and straightforward interpretation since something with no protection on the Negative Energy Plane takes negative levels once per round, and the overwhelming majority of spells imposing negative levels are of the Necromancy school). It also doesn't say that undead are always healed by negative levels - that sort of effect is usually specified in the spell or ability effect if you try and use an Energy Drain-ish, or negative level bestower, on an undead creature. You could argue (to I have no doubt an unreceptive audience) that negative levels can be bestowed on undead, it's more a question of what happens when you do.
Originally Posted by MaxiDuRarityLast edited by Saintheart; 2024-02-10 at 08:34 PM.
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2024-02-11, 02:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Any way to level drain undead?
I understand the uncertainty of negative levels and undead, in general, but spark of life explicitly says that energy drain works on the undead, so wouldn't it make sense that all parts of the ability in question work as per the specific trumps general? And most energy drain abilities of monsters mention level loss.
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2024-02-11, 07:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Any way to level drain undead?
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2024-02-11, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Any way to level drain undead?
Quoth Saintheart:
Another way Pathfinder indirectly makes this possible is because under its rules, their [fear] effects are [mind-affecting]. So you just shoehorn in the Dread Witch who can add the [fear] descriptor to a spell they cast that has a visual manifestation, Song of the Dead, done. Under 3.5 it's ... a bit more complicated.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2024-02-11, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Any way to level drain undead?
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2024-02-11, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Any way to level drain undead?
True - if Energy Drain were the same thing as getting negative levels. Which it isn't, because not all instances of negative levels have to come on via Energy Drain. Indeed the disjunction is specific enough that WOTC goes to the trouble of pointing out that while Energy Drain (Su) gives temporary hitpoints, a negative level imposed by a spell or other effect does not. (And then they further confuse it by adding in Life Drain as a feat, which does grant temporary hitpoints to - by RAW - all instances of negative level imposition.)
This is the problem with WOTC's fascination with overlapping effects to which different immunities apply. It makes for a satisfying system to explore, but it's hellish to keep consistent.
For example, Spark goes to all the trouble of specifying that undead under its effects do have to take Fort saves. If Energy Drain just worked on the undead as written, there'd be no need to go to that trouble. The problem is that there's Energy Drain immunity, and then there's negative energy immunity.
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2024-02-11, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Any way to level drain undead?
The point is that the negative levels could be used for whatever purpose the OP had in mind, depending on what that purpose is.
For instance, taking a bunch of high level undead, rebuking them all, forcing them to hold holy weapons, and using the negative levels to keep them at low (effective) level so you can rebuke even more of them to keep them under your control.
They don't need to be actually permanent to be effectively permanent.Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2024-02-11 at 09:36 AM.
⚣ Tanuki in the Playground. ⚣
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2024-02-12, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Any way to level drain undead?
Quoth Saintheart:
For example, Spark goes to all the trouble of specifying that undead under its effects do have to take Fort saves. If Energy Drain just worked on the undead as written, there'd be no need to go to that trouble.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics