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2024-02-11, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
Consider
Spoiler: Druid
- Aberration Blood
- Aberration Wildshape
- Natural Spell
- Extend Spell
- Persistent Spell
- DMM Persistent Spell
- Assume Supernatural Ability(Rebuke Undead)
Spoiler: Archivist
- Extend Spell
- Persistent Spell
- DMM Persistent Spell
- Assume Supernatural Ability(Rebuke Undead)
Learn Polymorph from someone with the Transformation domain
At 10 or more HD, Wildshape/Polymorph into Rot Reaver (MM3 p. 142) and use your newfound rebuke undead uses to Persist a spell or two.
Notably this is probably repeatable, allowing you to burn Wildshape/Polymorph uses for more persisted spells.
Some DMs might have an issue with a character taking DMM while only having Rebuke Undead part of the time, but the rules specifically cover what happens if you lose the prerequisites for a feat.
Specifically for a druid between Wildshape's long duration and possibly some help from the Bone Talisman spell, you may be able to Turn Undead continuously for a level or two if necessary.
Drawbacks:
That's a LOT of feats. The druid version takes 7(!) and as per Eggynack, the definitive expert on Druids, DMM is less important to Druids anyway. Therefore, this approach may be more appropriate if your game features ways of getting extra feats. Whether it's something like Flaws, Pathfinder's Feat progression, or something a little more OP like the Dark Chaos feat shuffle.
Aside: Rot Reaver + Assume Supernatural Ability could also give free Animate Dead, but there are easier ways of doing that.Last edited by Rebel7284; 2024-02-11 at 01:35 PM.
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2024-02-11, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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- Tula, Russia
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Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
Alternatively, you can use form of Kuo-Toa Exalted Whip (Monster Manual V):
Divine Talent (Ex) Kuo-toa exalted whips cast spells, gain granted powers from domains, and rebuke undead as 8th-level evil clerics.
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2024-02-11, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
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- Nottingham, England
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Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
It is rather dubious; the PHB says you level up "at the end of each adventure" (p.58) and don't specify how long it takes to level up, so it's very much a DM call whether temporary abilities count or not. Of course, if you can make an ability continuous that isn't an issue.
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2024-02-11, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
Thanks for adding that option! I see some issues with this one.
- Ex ability and explicitly listed under under special qualities means that Assume supernatural ability doesn't work on it and polymorph says:
Originally Posted by srd
However, outside of Master of Many forms 3, I don't recall any way to easily wildshape into monstrous humanoids.
- 10 HD doesn't make it any faster than Rot Reaver, however if the issues above could be resolved without using too many resources, it could be an interesting alternative!
2 feats + 3 for DMM = 5, so easier for a Druid, but more expensive for an archivist. However, as it only gives you one Turn Attempt, you then need extra resources to get you more. It's okay if nightsticks stack, but otherwise Extra Turning is a feat!
In addition, while the Druid method takes 7 feats, one of those is Natural Spell, which you were going to take anyway, and it's not like Aberration Wildshape isn't one of the most broken Druid feats already, so really, it's 4 extra feats for a druid too.
The main advantage of the god touched method is that you don't spend half your career not qualifying for DMM, but you do pay for that elegance with an extra feat + other resources.
Sadly many DMs and most of the forum competitions ban Dragon Magazine, which is a pity, plenty of interesting content there and it's still less broken than core.
Edit:
Also, I am fully aware that Shapechange would save you from taking Assume Supernatural Ability/Enhance Wildshape uses and give you all the Rebuke Undead uses you need. However, Shapechange is SUCH a broken beast that it barely matters at that point.Last edited by Rebel7284; 2024-02-11 at 06:10 PM.
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2024-02-11, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
One more variant - Xag-Ya/Xeg-Yi (Manual of the Planes) They're both just 5 HD
But - being Outsiders - the only (IIRR) ways to Wild Shape into them are Planar Shepherd and 3.0 Shifter; Polymorph and PAO are don't allow Incorporeal forms...
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2024-02-11, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
I'm not understanding how this is working without levels.
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2024-02-11, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
Taking any divine metamagic feat requires that you already have the ability to turn or rebuke undead as a prerequisite, unfortunately (unless you already accounted for that - the time the feats are taken relative to the wildshape/polymorph is unclear).
Last edited by Tohron; 2024-02-11 at 08:10 PM.
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2024-02-11, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
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2024-02-11, 09:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
There are no levels that grant turn or rebuke undead. This only uses feats/spells. So if you don't have class levels available (say you really want a capstone or something), you have that option.
I note this in the OP that you may need to have a conversation with your DM about this. In general, it's not unheard of to take feats that affect abilities that you only have part of the time. For example, the flavor text of Steel Dragons talks about them preferring to be in alternate form most of the time, but I am pretty sure they can still take weapon focus[claw].
Certain builds can also stay in Wildshape long enough to have Rebuke Undead 24/7 if they want for a fairly extended period of time.
Bone Talisman definitely gives you the ability to turn undead for 10 minutes/level, and you have extend spell, so filling your second and some third level slots with this spell might be enough.
In addition, in certain campaigns you can even diplomance a Heirophant to just give you turn/rebuke undead for a week and do an adventure in that time span and level up. (Yes, if you can do it reliably every week, just do that and don't spend a feat on Assume Supernatural Ability, but that might be hard if it's not a cohort.)
So there are multiple approaches to resolving that prerequisite and they vary depending on specific build and campaign.
Edit:
It is true that depending on the build (short duration form changing effects) and DM ruling (must qualify 24/7 for several days/weeks and no Heirophants), this may not work in your campaign.
Edit:
Ah yes, another one of many reasons why Planar Shepherd is silly. 😂
Admittedly, it can be fairly difficult to determine what plane a particular outsider should be on, not to mention how strange it gets when switching from Eberon to other cosmologies.
Edit:
Ultimately the combo boils down to hey, here is ONE feat that gives you rebuking. Assume Supernatural Ability(Rebuke Undead). I simply added some context about interesting ways to use that. I can definitely see builds who already have turning via sacred exorcist or something just taking ASA rather than Extra Turning since it adds way more turn attempts per day.
I hope my addendum, listed as "edit" are less annoying than posting 4-5 times in a row. 🤣😂Last edited by Rebel7284; 2024-02-11 at 11:05 PM.
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2024-02-12, 12:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
If Alter Self works with Assume Supernatural Ability, then this could be a MUCH earlier way of accessing Turn/Rebuke undead. This either limits your type to outsider or you have to be able to gain the outsider type (which multiple cleric spells and Polymorph allow.)
Unclear if this form can do verbal components though. Hmm.Last edited by Rebel7284; 2024-02-12 at 01:27 AM.
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2024-02-12, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- Ireland
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Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
If you ever want DMM on a sorcerer...
Play a wyrmling Steel DragonDoF (4d12 HD, LA +2) with the Lightbringer sovereign archetypeDoE. You can take Extra Turning without meeting the prerequisites, gaining turn undead 4/day as a cleric of your sorcerer caster level (normally 1st). You also add cleric, Glory, Law, Sun and War spells to your sorcerer spell list.
Note that besides Practiced Spellcaster, you can cancel out the LA by taking one as a cohort with the Dragon Leadership feat. And that the Abjurant Champion capstone (use your BAB as your caster level) also works well for dragons.Last edited by Prime32; 2024-02-12 at 09:01 AM.
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2024-02-12, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-12, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2021
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- France
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Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
Just for the "probably repeatable" part, it most certainly isn't. The way X/day abilities are handled is "I want to use my ability A, that I've used N times today and can use X times per day. If N<X, I can use it, otherwise I cannot". If you lose then regain the ability to turn undead, it does not change the fact that you already used 7 of them today, and thus cannot use another Persistent Spell.
This ruling comes originally from FAQ (quoted in "https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/9ghpyr/35_turn_undead/") and applies initially to temporary Cha bonuses, but the wording should apply to any gain of temporary uses of a specific ability, and since we don't have any actual rules on how to handle gaining temporary limited-use abilities, this is our most trustworthy source on how things "should" work.Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
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2024-02-12, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
Well the issue is that it was never made clear if you gain an ability with a limit on uses. Use it, and then gain that ability again later, if you are gaining the SAME ability or a new instance of the ability.
Simple example: You turn into a creature with an ability of Fireball 3/day. You use the fireball twice. Later in the day, you turn into the same creature. Do you have 3 or 1 fireballs remaining?
A more impactful example: Shapechanging into a Zodar and using their SU: Wish 1/year. What happens if you Shapechange into a Zodar again the next day? Is it the same ability? Does it know that you already used it?
The Zodar example makes it tempting to make all abilities have a perfect memory even when gained temporarily. However, that is a balance ruling and most people don't care as much when it's fireball.
Also, assuming your DM does indeed decide to track ability uses, what counts as a unique ability? Could you get 2-3 instances of Rebuke Undead by switching to completely different creatures that happen to grant it? What about back to the fireball case, what happens if you take a form of a creature that has fireball 3/day but then take a form of a completely different creature with fireball 1/day?
I will grant that saying probably repeatable may have been a mistake. It's probably a huge rules ambiguity though.
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2024-02-12, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
An obvious implication: A Destroy Undead Cleric[animal domain] 7/Sacred Exorcist 1/Cleric <n> can actually use 3 pools for persistomancy at high level (Destroy Undead, Turn Undead, and Rebuke Undead).
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2024-02-12, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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2024-02-12, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
A few months back, I suggested an interpretation that abilities that work X times per day, or the like, start off on cooldown, not active, so if you changed into a form with Turn Undead 3 times per day, or whatever, you'd need to stay in that form for a full day before you could use it at all (this would also affect abilities with a shorter cooldown, but once per 1d4 rounds or whatever would be much easier to manage). It's a fairly small change, but it does a lot to rein in the power of most of the form-changing spells and effects.
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2024-02-13, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2024-02-13, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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2024-02-13, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Found a way to get DMM with 0 class levels
Cheese Geomancer/Alternate Source Spell/Mulan Human. :)
Or, Dragonblood Spellpact which allows you to just freely swap spells known between yours and a friend's lists, and IIRC doesn't even specify whether those spells remain divine or arcane. It's even written for Sorcerers specifically.