Silly Thought Experiment: True Polymorph and Truesight

[Potato_Priest]

Larry is a level 20 wizard. He casts true polymorph to turn himself into an Ancient Brass dragon, then uses the Ancient Brass dragon's Change Shape ability to temporarily change back into himself (albeit with 297 hit points, the mental ability scores of an ancient brass dragon, and no class features).

A couatl looks at Larry in this double-shapeshifted form with its truesight (which allows it to see the "original" form of any shapeshifted creature). What does it see?

[JNAProductions]

This presumes that you're allowed to Change Shape into specific individuals, not just generic people of a given form.

I'd say anyone with Truesight sees your current and true form very clearly, with a faint superimposition of the dragon form.

[Potato_Priest]

This presumes that you're allowed to Change Shape into specific individuals, not just generic people of a given form.

I'd say anyone with Truesight sees your current and true form very clearly, with a faint superimposition of the dragon form.

True. I suppose if you don't presume that dragons can do it, you need Larry to turn into something else that can explicitly turn into specific individuals, like a doppelganger.

Would you require a perception check for a creature with truesight to notice the dragon form?

[Unoriginal]

Larry is a level 20 wizard. He casts true polymorph to turn himself into an Ancient Brass dragon, then uses the Ancient Brass dragon's Change Shape ability to temporarily change back into himself (albeit with 297 hit points, the mental ability scores of an ancient brass dragon, and no class features).

A couatl looks at Larry in this double-shapeshifted form with its truesight (which allows it to see the "original" form of any shapeshifted creature). What does it see?

Superimposed layers with the starting form as the core.

Would you require a perception check for a creature with truesight to notice the dragon form?

I wouldn't, personally.

[JNAProductions]

True. I suppose if you don't presume that dragons can do it, you need Larry to turn into something else that can explicitly turn into specific individuals, like a doppelganger.

Would you require a perception check for a creature with truesight to notice the dragon form?

Doppelgängers can imitate the form of a specific creature, but not the abilities.

And I would not call for a perception check, no.

[Chronos]

We don't need mimicry of abilities, just the form, for this thought experiment (well, we need the True Polymorph to mimic abilities, but it does that).

And if a dragon can't choose specifics for its Change Shape, beyond general race and such, then what would Larry's Change Shape form look like? I'd think that if he can't choose specific details, then the details would be those to which he had the greatest inherent affinity, or something of that sort, which probably would still put him in his own true form anyway.

[Unoriginal]

And if a dragon can't choose specifics for its Change Shape, beyond general race and such, then what would Larry's Change Shape form look like?

Dragons' Change Shape forms are usually portrayed as "take the dragon's traits and translate them into the assumed species' equivalent.

Considering the Ancient Brass Dragon's appearance, I would say that it probably translates into an humanoid with a short, pronged beard on his chin, an haircut resembling the dragon's head frills, orange eyes, a long robe with pauldrons that evokes the dragon's wings and tail, and a brass-related color scheme.

[JonBeowulf]

Larry is a dragonborn instead of human. Larry now does the TP into Bronze Dragon thing and then SCs back into a dragonborn that is quite Larry-ish.

As a DM what does TS see? It sees me kick you from my table for hurting my brain!

[RSP]

To me, Truesight allows for seeing and knowing the other forms: it’s not meant to be confusing. Someone using it to view any shape changed creature would be aware of the forms.

I don’t know that a form in between the “true form” and a current form counts though.

So in the OP example, the Couatl would see the Wizard and the current form of a humanoid. But they wouldn’t know there’s a dragon form in there somewhere.

[JLandan]

Basic Rules
Truesight
A monster with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. Furthermore, the monster can see into the Ethereal Plane within the same range.

There's no mention of superimposed images of forms RAW. So that's house rule.
I would say the shapechanger would look like his original form regardless of anything else.

[lall]

It sees Larry and life now has meaning.

[Unoriginal]

Basic Rules
Truesight
A monster with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. Furthermore, the monster can see into the Ethereal Plane within the same range.

There's no mention of superimposed images of forms RAW. So that's house rule.
I would say the shapechanger would look like his original form regardless of anything else.

You are correct, it seems I misremembered the spell.

Does that mean the True Sightseer is unable to see the *current,* form of a shapeshifter, though?

As in, if an ancient dragon shapeshifts to go through a narrow passage, do they just see the dragon in their regular size slide in said passage?

If yes, that reminds me of one of the best scenes in the first Bartimeus books, where the BBEG summons an entity so enormously powerful that they could immediately see through the protagonist's best shapeshifting without even noticing the attempt... something the BBEG was not capable of doing.

Needless to say, ordering your summoned entity to "kill this woman first" when they see the true appearance of everything leads to quite a bit of easily exploitable confusion.

[No brains]

I like to imagine truesight as something of a heads-up display that not only reveals magical deceptions, but also tells spells it out for the user what the deceptions are. Almost like the creature has turned on developer mode and can see the tags on all the objects it can currently see.

I don't think a creature with truesight should be penalized for this ability by losing information, such as a written message on an illusion over a passage.

[JLandan]

You are correct, it seems I misremembered the spell.

Does that mean the True Sightseer is unable to see the *current,* form of a shapeshifter, though?

As in, if an ancient dragon shapeshifts to go through a narrow passage, do they just see the dragon in their regular size slide in said passage?

If yes, that reminds me of one of the best scenes in the first Bartimeus books, where the BBEG summons an entity so enormously powerful that they could immediately see through the protagonist's best shapeshifting without even noticing the attempt... something the BBEG was not capable of doing.

Needless to say, ordering your summoned entity to "kill this woman first" when they see the true appearance of everything leads to quite a bit of easily exploitable confusion.

I would say yes, the trueseer would see the original form squeezing through the narrow space. Interpretation of this vision is up to the trueseer. It would be a great headjob on the PC.

[Mastikator]

I mean if a gargantuan shapeshifter shapeshifts into a medium creature, then stands inside a small room that can not possibly accommodate the original form. It's weird to see them as squeezing, they're not squeezing, they would either be crushed or burst through the room if they changed back. I'd rather say that you see the original form superimposed over the current form, they see them in whatever pose they are. If they are bigger than the room could accommodate then you see them through the walls and ceilings. As in you see them go through the walls and ceiling, you see them through the walls and ceiling.

With multiple layers of shapeshifting you see all the forms and know the order of the layers. You see a wizard transformed into a dragon that would cut through the roof, transformed into a man that is the same shape as the original wizard.

You just see the truth, it's not confusing or misleading the character with truesight (though it may be confusing or misleading for the player, but that's another story).

[Potato_Priest]

With multiple layers of shapeshifting you see all the forms and know the order of the layers. You see a wizard transformed into a dragon that would cut through the roof, transformed into a man that is the same shape as the original wizard.

How would you imagine a creature with truesight distinguishes between the visually (albeit not mechanically) identical original and final forms, if they are the same image and superimposed on each other?

[kazaryu]

If yes, that reminds me of one of the best scenes in the first Bartimeus books, where the BBEG summons an entity so enormously powerful that they could immediately see through the protagonist's best shapeshifting without even noticing the attempt... something the BBEG was not capable of doing.

Needless to say, ordering your summoned entity to "kill this woman first" when they see the true appearance of everything leads to quite a bit of easily exploitable confusion.

complete tangeant, but to be fair, in that instance bartimeus also describes that type of stuff as being like...layered. so you don't see the forms superimposed over each other you have to deliberately view the next layer. and with the spirits not being "meant" to exist on the mortal plane there's a good chance the massively powerful entity had never really been summoned before, so it makes sense that they'd not think to look at the "lower" layers of reality. not that they were incapable of it neccesarily.

but also OMFG I'VE BEEN HOPING TO FIND SOMEONE ELSE THAT READ THAT SERIES. I absolutely loved the bartimeus trilogy back in high school but i've not met anyone else that read them and I think its a shame how (seemingly) little attention those books got.

[Mastikator]

How would you imagine a creature with truesight distinguishes between the visually (albeit not mechanically) identical original and final forms, if they are the same image and superimposed on each other?

I'm not sure it needs to be visual, it can be just a feeling, or you just know. You see the truth.

[Potato_Priest]

I'm not sure it needs to be visual, it can be just a feeling, or you just know. You see the truth.

I respect this ruling, but I feel like at my table I'd want true sight to be visual. As you said, you see the truth. Not sixth-sense it.

[JLandan]

Perhaps the true form would be seen, but with the current size. Like a gargantuan creature but only six feet tall. That could be a hoot. Or a kobold that appears huge.

[Mastikator]

I respect this ruling, but I feel like at my table I'd want true sight to be visual. As you said, you see the truth. Not sixth-sense it.

Maybe it's the like seeing new colors, the dragon form has a shade of ocatrine, and the shapeshanged wizard too. Can't be explained to someone who doesn't have truesight.

[Chronos]

I think that this is a case where D&D being an oral game works to its benefit. You see a 30-foot tall dragon in the 10-foot room. That's what you see, because that's what I, the DM, just told you you see. How? Magic.

A cinematographer would have a very difficult time portraying that on screen, but that doesn't matter, because I'm not a cinematographer.