Release Dates for the 2024 Updated Core Rulebooks

[stoutstien]

The PHB coming first is normal, as it is the "one book you need to play".

The DMG coming before the MM has always been weird to me, though.

That's only true if it's true. Thus far they have squirrel quite a bit of very important info in the DMG that is needed unless you have lots of prior experience with the genre and can fill in the blanks.

You *can* play without the DMG but it's a lot of "why?! Why??! What?!.....oh that's why."

[Unoriginal]

That's only true if it's true. Thus far they have squirrel quite a bit of very important info in the DMG that is needed unless you have lots of prior experience with the genre and can fill in the blanks.

You *can* play without the DMG but it's a lot of "why?! Why??! What?!.....oh that's why."

You are correct. I failed to take into account the part of WotC being WotC.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

Having done this several times now, the staggered release was never ideal. From a publishing and profit point of view, I understand why its necessary, but every single time it creates confusion and growing pains.

For people buying the books. I highly recommend holding off for a year as that first printing invariably changes as errata and inconsistencies in the core books are ironed out.

2014 book fell apart on me within a couple weeks.

Wouldn't be surprised if there's bad batches this time around too.

[Psyren]

The MM being last in line makes perfect sense to me. We have a ton of modern monster design already, from MPMM to sourcebooks like Planescape/Bigby's/etc, to adventure paths and various free or low-cost online releases etc.

More importantly, Basic 2024 will absolutely release before the new MM, and I would wager there's a good chance it even releases before the new DMG or even the new PHB like it did 10 years ago. Basic doesn't need a pile of typeset art after all.

What I don't get is why they aren't releasing the DMG first. Sure it won't sell nearly as the same volume as the PHB but hopefully they learned *something* from 5e and aren't planning to ad hoc it after they have already started kicking out material.

Theoretically the DMG would showcase the actual system design changes that would be in the PHB/MM and proved (coherent) support for actually running the system.
That is needed *before* people picking apart the player facing content because once they are intrenched you are having to unteach before you do anything else.

You don't need the DMG to play 5e, it's simple as that. We proved that 10 years ago. A staggered release having been deemed necessary, this is exactly the right order to stagger them in now due to the above.

Errata for "oh we meant this" or "oh we should have meant this" is the only acceptable errata for a product w/ this much money backing it.

Errata for stuff a spell check or simple editing? No. That's 100% unacceptable for a product of this cost.

What cost is that?

[stoutstien]

You don't need the DMG to play 5e, it's simple as that. We proved that 10 years ago. A staggered release having been deemed necessary, this is exactly the right order to stagger them in now due to the above.

If you had experience sure but fresh face and only the PHB? Nah it was a mess. They banked on GM skills being transferred over rather than the system on its own merit. We are still dealing with the fallout of people porting over the *wrong* things because by the time they did get the DMG and other material out to the public the pattern was set. The could definitely fit in the required info without messing with page count but as of now they haven't shown the are willing and/or able. Heck it took them to VGtR to introduce a sane npc building guild and outright state that your antagonist doesn't need to br some CR/ level matched NPC to function.

Arguably we don't *need* anything new at all but if you did want to push for more tables to flip it's going to be players following GMs not the other way around.

[Psyren]

If you had experience sure but fresh face and only the PHB? Nah it was a mess. They banked on GM skills being transferred over rather than the system on its own merit. We are still dealing with the fallout of people porting over the *wrong* things because by the time they did get the DMG and other material out to the public the pattern was set. The could definitely fit in the required info without messing with page count but as of now they haven't shown the are willing and/or able. Heck it took them to VGtR to introduce a sane npc building guild and outright state that your antagonist doesn't need to br some CR/ level matched NPC to function.

Arguably we don't *need* anything new at all but if you did want to push for more tables to flip it's going to be players following GMs not the other way around.

I'm not saying it'll be perfect, but again, given that stagger is the route they've chosen to go in, the PHB is more important to get out first. That's a hill I'll gladly die on, if you still disagree that's fine but I don't see a point in budging on that.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

If you had experience sure but fresh face and only the PHB? Nah it was a mess. They banked on GM skills being transferred over rather than the system on its own merit. We are still dealing with the fallout of people porting over the *wrong* things because by the time they did get the DMG and other material out to the public the pattern was set. The could definitely fit in the required info without messing with page count but as of now they haven't shown the are willing and/or able. Heck it took them to VGtR to introduce a sane npc building guild and outright state that your antagonist doesn't need to br some CR/ level matched NPC to function.

Arguably we don't *need* anything new at all but if you did want to push for more tables to flip it's going to be players following GMs not the other way around.

5e's DMG is so bad, especially the CR system, that it kinda proves you don't need a DMG.

I know a lot of DMs that started with 5e that don't even have the DMG.

[Dork_Forge]

5e's DMG is so bad, especially the CR system, that it kinda proves you don't need a DMG.

I know a lot of DMs that started with 5e that don't even have the DMG.

I disagree that it isn't needed, simply because entire portions of the game are kept there. Magic items are iconic parts of the genre and expected to pop up at some point in some quantity, they're in the DMG. Poison is an interesting thing to use, not only an accessory to various tropes but an archetype unto itself. So where are the vast majority of poisons? The DMG. How much loot to give players? DMG. How to handle them wanting to run a business? DMG.

I personally find swathes of the DMG useless, but they do squirrel a good chunk of the game away in there, and just because I don't need a lot of the guidance in some chapters, doesn't mean others don't find it useful. Just because you can learn a lot from other players and YT etc. doesn't mean that the game itself should give up and expect you to use those avenues alone.

And on the topic of basic: It's literally just chunks of the books. It doesn't exist if the source books don't. And to be honest as someone that started playing in 5e, I would not have latched on like I did if I had to play with nothing but basic. The lack of art and fundamental options is just too much.

I'm glad that it exists, it certainly serves a purpose, but it's not realistically a substitute for owning/accessing the books one way or another.

[Ionathus]

I can understand a staggered release,

I can't. Can someone please fill me in on why they're releasing the books one at a time? They did this before, too, so it must be intentional.

Is it a dev time thing? A strategy to milk the sales cycle for all it's worth? A rules-based thing where they want people to get comfortable with the base rule changes first before adding extra stuff?

[Psyren]

I can't. Can someone please fill me in on why they're releasing the books one at a time? They did this before, too, so it must be intentional.

Is it a dev time thing? A strategy to milk the sales cycle for all it's worth? A rules-based thing where they want people to get comfortable with the base rule changes first before adding extra stuff?

I genuinely don't understand what's so difficult to grok about this. If they're releasing books X, Y, and Z, and Z won't be ready until 2025, then the only way to release them all simultaneously would be to delay them all until... 2025. It's bad enough that we have one book that won't be ready until then, why on Chauntea's green earth would three delays be better?

[Envyus]

You are correct. I failed to take into account the part of WotC being WotC.

You do know the books have always been staggered. With only one exception for 4e

[Envyus]

I can't. Can someone please fill me in on why they're releasing the books one at a time? They did this before, too, so it must be intentional.

Is it a dev time thing? A strategy to milk the sales cycle for all it's worth? A rules-based thing where they want people to get comfortable with the base rule changes first before adding extra stuff?

It’s that the Printers can’t handle doing all three at the same time while keeping up with the numbers they expect to be sold. And the DMG and MM still need more work.

[Crusher]

5e's DMG is so bad, especially the CR system, that it kinda proves you don't need a DMG.

I feel this point is worth re-emphasizing. The PHB had typos and my initial copy fell apart like everyone else's, but the content and organization were both solid. Its well laid out, it makes sense and the info is generally well presented. My personal issues with the magic system aside, its a good book.

The DMG, however, is not. Feel free to ignore my venting rant about the DMG below.

Its a badly organized, confusing piece of junk that I rarely use. Which is a shame, because it absolutely has a bunch of really handy guidelines and useful information on running campaigns. But those useful bits are scattered randomly amongst long digressions on stuff no one cares about and rules that are borderline-misleading (like the CR stuff, which is helpful organized right next to the Oathbreaker and Death Cleric rules for some reason?) and the organization is just horrendous.

Like, I'm currently running a campaign in which various forms of madness are a fairly frequent issue so I have to look them up semi-regularly, and it takes me a minute to find them every time because I can never remember which category those rules were sorted into and the index is oddly unhelpful. The big list of magic items is nice, but I have the same issues with magic items I have with spells (having everything be an idiosyncratic one-off made sense 50 years ago but its absurd 5e picked that system of spells and magic items) so it also annoys me.

[Darth Credence]

I'm going to jump in here as the defender of the DMG. I think the current one is just fine. To be fair, I did not get it until early 2020, and I have only used the dndbeyond version, not a physical copy (I have a physical copy given to me, but I've only opened it a couple of times). Maybe that current version is better than it originally was, I don't know.

I think that it has a lot of good information, and if you are doing an online version of it, enough links to easily get to the appropriate place. It is not perfect, clearly, and as a book to read through they could have at the very least ordered it better so it doesn't start at the deep end. But as an online reference, I can quickly find what I'm looking for and quickly get to anything those sections reference. dndbeyond's search function is absolute crap, so when I look for something I'm not just searching, I go to the DMG table of contents and go from there.

I truly believe that the DMG is a great resource that answers a lot of things that are commonly complained about not being defined anywhere. I recognize that some of that is because of the order, but I think part of it is that some never just sat down and read it. Grabbing little pieces when a rule comes up would be a nightmare, because I agree that things can be all over the place. But having read it all, I don't think it is a bad book.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

I disagree that it isn't needed, simply because entire portions of the game are kept there. Magic items are iconic parts of the genre and expected to pop up at some point in some quantity, they're in the DMG. Poison is an interesting thing to use, not only an accessory to various tropes but an archetype unto itself. So where are the vast majority of poisons? The DMG. How much loot to give players? DMG. How to handle them wanting to run a business? DMG.

I personally find swathes of the DMG useless, but they do squirrel a good chunk of the game away in there, and just because I don't need a lot of the guidance in some chapters, doesn't mean others don't find it useful. Just because you can learn a lot from other players and YT etc. doesn't mean that the game itself should give up and expect you to use those avenues alone.

And on the topic of basic: It's literally just chunks of the books. It doesn't exist if the source books don't. And to be honest as someone that started playing in 5e, I would not have latched on like I did if I had to play with nothing but basic. The lack of art and fundamental options is just too much.

I'm glad that it exists, it certainly serves a purpose, but it's not realistically a substitute for owning/accessing the books one way or another.

The one I bought didn't actually help with running D&D because those portions aren't good.

At least, not in any meaningful way that modifying a pre-made adventure or winging it didn't already do.

I don't see how anyone can say the DMG is even good when it fails at the one single thing it needs to do, the CR system. The DMG straight up lies to the reader.

A lot of the other information is not needed or was just thrown in randomly.

It's really telling when you need to go online to get break downs and fan-revisions of the information presented.

I feel this point is worth re-emphasizing. The PHB had typos and my initial copy fell apart like everyone else's, but the content and organization were both solid. Its well laid out, it makes sense and the info is generally well presented. My personal issues with the magic system aside, its a good book.

The DMG, however, is not. Feel free to ignore my venting rant about the DMG below.

Its a badly organized, confusing piece of junk that I rarely use. Which is a shame, because it absolutely has a bunch of really handy guidelines and useful information on running campaigns. But those useful bits are scattered randomly amongst long digressions on stuff no one cares about and rules that are borderline-misleading (like the CR stuff, which is helpful organized right next to the Oathbreaker and Death Cleric rules for some reason?) and the organization is just horrendous.

Like, I'm currently running a campaign in which various forms of madness are a fairly frequent issue so I have to look them up semi-regularly, and it takes me a minute to find them every time because I can never remember which category those rules were sorted into and the index is oddly unhelpful. The big list of magic items is nice, but I have the same issues with magic items I have with spells (having everything be an idiosyncratic one-off made sense 50 years ago but its absurd 5e picked that system of spells and magic items) so it also annoys me.

The 5e DMG has potential, just like, needs a lot or work to be made into a good book.

Also, I hate how the DMG (and MToF) are the only real place to get info for the planes. Like, if the DMG is meant to be a starting point for that... Oof. 1 chapter that isn't very long... Just doesn't really cut it.

[Unoriginal]

You do know the books have always been staggered. With only one exception for 4e

What I was talking about had nothing to do with the staggering.

[JadedDM]

It’s that the Printers can’t handle doing all three at the same time while keeping up with the numbers they expect to be sold. And the DMG and MM still need more work.

I imagine WotC firing their book staff just before the holidays and cutting ties with Penguin Publishing probably play a role, as well.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

I imagine WotC firing their book staff just before the holidays and cutting ties with Penguin Publishing probably play a role, as well.

More reasons to not buy the books.

[Blatant Beast]

I genuinely don't understand what's so difficult to grok about this. If they're releasing books X, Y, and Z, and Z won't be ready until 2025, then the only way to release them all simultaneously would be to delay them all until... 2025. It's bad enough that we have one book that won't be ready until then, why on Chauntea's green earth would three delays be better?

It would be better, as we are discussing the release of rules modules, and not Dune, Part II. Imagine a trial, in which the Judge had all the rules to conduct a trial, except for the part dealing with Sentencing….which will be released 6 months later.

The argument that one can ‘get by’ with 5e material or by ‘winging it’ until One D&D’s full release, is also an argument for dispensing with the purchase of said products, altogether, especially in the case of the One D&D Monster Manual.

This board had a recent 20+ page thread regarding the ‘hows and why’s’ of setting an Ability Check DC. This alone, might be indicative that if books were being released in order of need for clarification, then, perhaps, the revised Dungeon Master’s Guide should be released first.

The DMG is never the D&D book with the highest sales, so even if there was a demonstrated need for the revised DMG, right now, the WotC batting lineup is always going to start with the PHB as the first batter….which is irksome to some.

I am not sure, why that is so difficult to grok, from an idealistic standpoint? 😘

[Psyren]

It would be better, as we are discussing the release of rules modules, and not Dune, Part II. Imagine a trial, in which the Judge had all the rules to conduct a trial, except for the part dealing with Sentencing….which will be released 6 months later.

Exactly - sentencing does typically come months later, so sentencing guidelines don't need to be ready alongside the trial date either. See the SBF trial for example, trial began in October, sentencing won't be until March. Thanks for the analogy!

The argument that one can ‘get by’ with 5e material or by ‘winging it’ until One D&D’s full release, is also an argument for dispensing with the purchase of said products, altogether, especially in the case of the One D&D Monster Manual.

Then dispense with them. Nobody is stopping you. I'd rather have the PHB sooner.

This board had a recent 20+ page thread regarding the ‘hows and why’s’ of setting an Ability Check DC. This alone, might be indicative that if books were being released in order of need for clarification, then, perhaps, the revised Dungeon Master’s Guide should be released first.

Most beginner groups barely need detailed guidelines because they're running modules with set DCs anyway. And experienced groups can live with the existing guidance. In short, the PHB first is the right call.

The DMG is never the D&D book with the highest sales, so even if there was a demonstrated need for the revised DMG, right now, the WotC batting lineup is always going to start with the PHB as the first batter….which is irksome to some.

I am not sure, why that is so difficult to grok, from an idealistic standpoint? 😘

Then be irked. As you yourself just said, the PHB has the highest sales of the three. Like a good essay, you open with your strongest points. Like a prizefight, you open with your knockout punch. If the preorders sell out or otherwise hit big, boom, you have another free headline. It's not difficult to follow the logic.

[Ionathus]

It’s that the Printers can’t handle doing all three at the same time while keeping up with the numbers they expect to be sold. And the DMG and MM still need more work.

That makes sense, thank you. I hadn't considered printing bandwidth, but it's probably cheaper to go with lower bandwidth over a longer time period, than it would to pay a higher-bandwidth vendor(s) for a faster run.

The DMG and MM not being done yet is a little odd to me but understandable, I guess. More thoughts on that below.

I genuinely don't understand what's so difficult to grok about this. If they're releasing books X, Y, and Z, and Z won't be ready until 2025, then the only way to release them all simultaneously would be to delay them all until... 2025. It's bad enough that we have one book that won't be ready until then, why on Chauntea's green earth would three delays be better?

1. I don't know why you're bringing this hostility to a simple question. I apologize if my original post came off as mean-spirited or rude, but it was an earnest question and I'd appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions and bite my head off for asking it.

2. I had the impression that all three books would be done simultaneously and they were just waiting for the publishing cycle. I don't know that much about publishing a three-part core rules set, and my assumption was that you would do all three books at the same time so they can be as cohesive as possible -- since they're meant to be 3 pieces of a complete set.

If it's more like you're saying, that they start with the PHB and then the MM and DMG are more like "expansion packs", the publishing schedule makes more sense.

[KorvinStarmast]

The PHB coming first is normal, as it is the "one book you need to play".

Well, the first time they printed books in a staggered order it was : Monster Manual, Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide. (AD&D 1e). But, that was related to the "Holmes Basic" coming out and TSR trying to capture their existent experienced players who had three brown books, greyhawk, etc.

The DMG coming before the MM has always been weird to me, though.

5e didn't do that, though, IIRC. I suspect that backwards compatible makes the current MM good enough?

You do know the books have always been staggered. With only one exception for 4e

Beyond all three were released in the original game, but for WotC I think that's right. Also, Basic and BX had (in a much smaller package) all you needed to play in one box, but for higher lever stuff you went to expert, etc ...

Its well laid out, it makes sense and the info is generally well presented.
My personal issues with the magic system aside, its a good book.

While I mostly agree, having each class's spell lists in the class section, with the spells in the back (since there is so much overlap) would be a better approach.
DMG organization, and the lack of the up front "for a beginning DM, here is how to run a game" were significant shortcomings.

and the index is oddly unhelpful.

Don't get me started on indexes ....

As you yourself just said, the PHB has the highest sales of the three. Like a good essay, you open with your strongest points. Like a prizefight, you open with your knockout punch.

In a boxing match, you open with a jab. Might want to use a different example. (The essay one is a good one).

If the preorders sell out or otherwise hit big, boom, you have another free headline. It's not difficult to follow the logic.

PHB first does make sense if 'sales numbers for the quarter metrics" is the objective.

Given that a bunch of new and different player options are captured in the PHB, I tend to agree with PHB first being rational.

[Psyren]

1. I don't know why you're bringing this hostility to a simple question. I apologize if my original post came off as mean-spirited or rude, but it was an earnest question and I'd appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions and bite my head off for asking it.

I'm neither being hostile nor biting your head off. I'm expressing incredulity as to why a delay of all the books to 2025 is more desirable than getting most of them sooner than that - that's all.

2. I had the impression that all three books would be done simultaneously and they were just waiting for the publishing cycle. I don't know that much about publishing a three-part core rules set, and my assumption was that you would do all three books at the same time so they can be as cohesive as possible -- since they're meant to be 3 pieces of a complete set.

As laid out upthread, this has never been the case in D&D's history except for 4e, so I remain unsure why anyone would have that impression.

If it's more like you're saying, that they start with the PHB and then the MM and DMG are more like "expansion packs", the publishing schedule makes more sense.

Strictly speaking, the PHB is all you need to play the game, so you could think of it that way if you prefer.

[KorvinStarmast]

Strictly speaking, the PHB is all you need to play the game, so you could think of it that way if you prefer.

Actually, you need PHB and a source for monsters (like the Basic Rules, which are free) to do that.

[Psyren]

Actually, you need PHB and a source for monsters (like the Basic Rules, which are free) to do that.

Actually, the PHB contains monsters too. Go fight some wolves, skeletons or zombies

[JLandan]

Another reason for staggering publication is printing costs. A run of three volumes costs triple what a run of a single volume would be. Staggering release allows for the previous release to offset the expense of later volumes.

[Crusher]

PHB first does make sense if 'sales numbers for the quarter metrics" is the objective.

I mean... they're a publicly traded company, right? So, if the answer is *anything* other than "that's the only metric" it should be considered a win.

[Atranen]

. If it's more like you're saying, that they start with the PHB and then the MM and DMG are more like "expansion packs", the publishing schedule makes more sense.

At the end of the day, they say there are 3 core books, but that is just marketing. There is one core book--the players handbook--that one needs to play 5e. The others are optional.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

At the end of the day, they say there are 3 core books, but that is just marketing. There is one core book--the players handbook--that one needs to play 5e. The others are optional.

The PHB is also optional.

Especially with an SRD/OGL (which is why they keep wanting to not have an SRD/OGL).

Honestly, homebrew classes tend to be better so you could even play D&D without ever touching anything official.

[Psyren]

At the end of the day, they say there are 3 core books, but that is just marketing. There is one core book--the players handbook--that one needs to play 5e. The others are optional.

Exactly.

The PHB is also optional.

Especially with an SRD/OGL (which is why they keep wanting to not have an SRD/OGL).

The SRD is now in Creative Commons, so it is immortal and irrevocable in a way that not even the OGL could have guaranteed, and tested in court to boot.

Honestly, homebrew classes tend to be better so you could even play D&D without ever touching anything official.

You can, but I've found a way, way higher proportion of junk in homebrew. Sturgeon's Law is alive and well on DnDwiki and similar sites.