getting into 3.5e

[TheHalfAasimar]

(I think that's the right prefix?)

Hey, and thanks for helping me with the You gained a level in real life: 2024 edition thread, I enjoyed doing that! But I'd like to get into 3.5e, because 5e is kind of basic for me, as I go on. So, are there any of the books I need, because I own none of the books. I mostly just use srd.dndtools.org for finding cool classes and prestige classes and stuff like that. So would I need any of the books, or what?

As well as, if I do need the books (I'm just gonna stick to the PHB for now), would an Elf Wizard/Fighter/Eldritch Knight/ Arcane Archer work? Because it sounds pretty cool to me, I'd be able to attack from here, there, now, then, yesterday, another reality, what with how broken wizards are, and I think sacrificing a couple of spellcasting levels (from the Wizard and Eldritch Knight levels) for the magic arrows would be a fair trade-off. Would that be a fine build? So far, I'm thinking 5 levels of Wizard for the spells and the spellcasting requirement for the Eldritch Knight, 6 levels of Fighter for the BAB requirements, 2 levels of Arcane Archer for the Imbue Arrow ability, and all the rest of the levels as Eldritch Knight, or would splitting them equally between Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight be better? But if I can use something else, I would probably switch out Eldritch Knight for Bladesinger, but that isn't an option if I'm sticking to the core books.

[Ozreth]

Just dropping in to say that all of the players handbook, monster manual and dungeon masters guide are available here: www.d20srd.org.

3rd edition started the open gaming license and the above SRD was the first of its kind, making the rules open source and free. It’s how we ended up with Pathfinder.

[Biggus]

You'll need the three core books (Monster Manual, Dungeon Master's Guide and Player's Handbook) if you're going to be the DM, if you're going to be a player you just need the Player's Handbook. Anything else is optional.

That basic build idea could be fun, but it would work much better if you only take 1 or 2 levels of Fighter, because spells are a lot more versatile than martial classes in 3.5. I'd suggest Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/ Arcane Archer 2/Eldritch Knight +7/Wizard+2.

If you do decide to use material outside the core books, have a look at the Abjurant Champion class from Complete Mage, it's way better than the Eldritch Knight.

Just dropping in to say that all of the players handbook, monster manual and dungeon masters guide are available here: www.d20srd.org.

That's not true, there's LOADS of important material that's not included in the SRD, like how to level up your character for example.

[Ozreth]

That's not true, there's LOADS of important material that's not included in the SRD, like how to level up your character for example.

You’re right. I’m so used to just flipping to the SRD for quick rulings that I forgot what it doesn’t contain.

[TheHalfAasimar]

You'll need the three core books (Monster Manual, Dungeon Master's Guide and Player's Handbook) if you're going to be the DM, if you're going to be a player you just need the Player's Handbook. Anything else is optional.

That basic build idea could be fun, but it would work much better if you only take 1 or 2 levels of Fighter, because spells are a lot more versatile than martial classes in 3.5. I'd suggest Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/ Arcane Archer 2/Eldritch Knight +7/Wizard+2.

If you do decide to use material outside the core books, have a look at the Abjurant Champion class from Complete Mage, it's way better than the Eldritch Knight.



That's not true, there's LOADS of important material that's not included in the SRD, like how to level up your character for example.

Wow, thanks! That was a lot. So basically, fighter to start, wizard for spells, and I forgot about how EK doesn't require a BAB requirement, but AA does. Anyways, thanks for the help! Will consider this. And I'll shoot a look at the Abjurant Champion. Any suggestions on feats? Like, should I take metamagic and stuff?

EDIT: Shot a look. Looks like there's a BAB requirement (+5) and a feat requirement (Combat Casting) , and some other stuff that doesn't really matter (because wiz and fighter levels will make sure of it) which is a thing. I'll see how to make this work.

[Troacctid]

The website you mentioned in OP is not ethically sourced and contains pirated content, so you may want to redact it. In general, the best practice is to refer to the actual books, because fan sites, including the top Google results for the content you might be looking up, are often incomplete, inaccurate, or mixed with unlabeled homebrew content. Your better bet is to refer to an index that gives an incomplete overview of what you're looking for, but includes a book and page reference so that you can refer back to the primary source. The official Consolidated Lists are very helpful in this regard.

My advice is to build a character for the campaign you're playing. Much more so than in the, in 3.5e, you'll find that every campaign has its own character generation parameters, so if you try to build a character in advance before you know what campaign you're playing in, you might find that the character you planned is unsuitable and need to basically start over. Your plans might be completely illegal—for example, maybe you built around a prestige class that isn't allowed in this world. Or, the context of the campaign might make some of your choices make no sense—for example, if the game runs from level 6 to level 10, but you planned your whole build around a prestige class that you can't enter until level 11.

Not that theorycrafting isn't also good fun! You just have to be aware that in actual play, you'll need to be flexible and make adaptations as necessary.

[TheHalfAasimar]

The website you mentioned in OP is not ethically sourced and contains pirated content, so you may want to redact it. In general, the best practice is to refer to the actual books, because fan sites, including the top Google results for the content you might be looking up, are often incomplete, inaccurate, or mixed with unlabeled homebrew content. Your better bet is to refer to an index that gives an incomplete overview of what you're looking for, but includes a book and page reference so that you can refer back to the primary source. The official [had to take out link because I don't have enough posts] are very helpful in this regard.

My advice is to build a character for the campaign you're playing. Much more so than in the, in 3.5e, you'll find that every campaign has its own character generation parameters, so if you try to build a character in advance before you know what campaign you're playing in, you might find that the character you planned is unsuitable and need to basically start over. Your plans might be completely illegal—for example, maybe you built around a prestige class that isn't allowed in this world. Or, the context of the campaign might make some of your choices make no sense—for example, if the game runs from level 6 to level 10, but you planned your whole build around a prestige class that you can't enter until level 11.

Not that theorycrafting isn't also good fun! You just have to be aware that in actual play, you'll need to be flexible and make adaptations as necessary.

Thanks dude! Will take that into consideration. You know, I think theorycrafting would be good fun. Anyways, I'll try to work my way into that build so that I can attack. And, best of all, it only needs the PHB and the DMG! So yeah, I'll take that into consideration.

[Yora]

I would recommend just getting the Player's Handbook first. It's easy and cheap to find used, and the pdf should be high quality too (I only got the Monster Manual pdf and that one's excelent).
You can read through that and then you can see how you want to go from there.

One of the things I learned from over 20 years with the game is that you're going to have a much more enjoyable time with it when you remind yourself that the vast majority of playing it will be at the lower levels (up to 8th or 12th level). And it has become nearly universally accepted that the game just doesn't work well above roughly 14th level, and a lot of groups that even get that high decide to start a new campaign at 1st level than continue playing at high levels. We all got excited by the idea of 20 level campaigns when the game came out, but I think that expectation really caused us much more frustration than enjoying the game at the things it is actually good at.
When making fun characters, try thinking of ones that will be cool and exciting at 6th or 10th level. That's the level range where you're much more likely to actually see them doing their cool things in action.

[Kurald Galain]

So, are there any of the books I need, because I own none of the books. I mostly just use srd.dndtools.org for finding cool classes and prestige classes and stuff like that. So would I need any of the books, or what?

While only a few 3E books are freely available online, all Pathfinder material is freely available at AonPrd.
And as an alternative to your Arcane Archer, I'd like to suggest the Eldritch Archer Magus (downside: lower level spells; upside: works out of the box from level one, and can cast in addition to full attacking each turn, in addition to making his bow flaming/freezing as a swift action). HTH!

[TheHalfAasimar]

While only a few 3E books are freely available online, all Pathfinder material is freely available at [a website]
And as an alternative to your Arcane Archer, I'd like to suggest the [link 'cause i don't have enough posts yet] (downside: lower level spells; upside: works out of the box from level one, and can cast in addition to full attacking each turn, in addition to making his bow flaming/freezing as a swift action). HTH!

WOW that's cool. I've actually never played Pathfinder 1e or 2e, but I would really like to. Thanks!

I would recommend just getting the Player's Handbook first. It's easy and cheap to find used, and the pdf should be high quality too (I only got the Monster Manual pdf and that one's excelent).
You can read through that and then you can see how you want to go from there.

One of the things I learned from over 20 years with the game is that you're going to have a much more enjoyable time with it when you remind yourself that the vast majority of playing it will be at the lower levels (up to 8th or 12th level). And it has become nearly universally accepted that the game just doesn't work well above roughly 14th level, and a lot of groups that even get that high decide to start a new campaign at 1st level than continue playing at high levels. We all got excited by the idea of 20 level campaigns when the game came out, but I think that expectation really caused us much more frustration than enjoying the game at the things it is actually good at.
When making fun characters, try thinking of ones that will be cool and exciting at 6th or 10th level. That's the level range where you're much more likely to actually see them doing their cool things in action.

Ah, I see. Thanks! I will take that into consideration. Thanks!

[Biggus]

One of the things I learned from over 20 years with the game is that you're going to have a much more enjoyable time with it when you remind yourself that the vast majority of playing it will be at the lower levels (up to 8th or 12th level). And it has become nearly universally accepted that the game just doesn't work well above roughly 14th level, and a lot of groups that even get that high decide to start a new campaign at 1st level than continue playing at high levels. We all got excited by the idea of 20 level campaigns when the game came out, but I think that expectation really caused us much more frustration than enjoying the game at the things it is actually good at.
When making fun characters, try thinking of ones that will be cool and exciting at 6th or 10th level. That's the level range where you're much more likely to actually see them doing their cool things in action.

While the majority of people on here don't like playing past approximately 14th level, I'm currently DMing for a campaign which has gone all the way from levels 1 to 23 and is still going strong. Having said that a) we use quite a few houserules to keep some of the more gamebreaking stuff in check (there's some gamebreaking stuff in 3.5 all the way from level 1 if you look for it, but more at high levels) b) this is the first time I've ever managed to get that far, although in my case that's because gaming groups always break up before we get to high levels, not because we don't want to play at them.

There's a list here which includes most of the really broken stuff in 3.5 (under spoiler in second post), obviously it's not perfect but it's the best one I've seen.

And I'll shoot a look at the Abjurant Champion. Any suggestions on feats? Like, should I take metamagic and stuff?

EDIT: Shot a look. Looks like there's a BAB requirement (+5) and a feat requirement (Combat Casting) , and some other stuff that doesn't really matter (because wiz and fighter levels will make sure of it) which is a thing. I'll see how to make this work.

Combat Casting isn't a very good feat, but it's worth losing one feat for all the good things you get from Abjurant Champion.

As for what feats to take, from the Player's Handbook Improved Initiative is always a good one to start with. You'll need Point Blank Shot as it's a prerequisite for all the other archery feats; Rapid Shot and Precise Shot are both very useful.

For metamagic, Extend Spell is very handy and at higher levels, Quicken Spell as it allows you to cast two spells per round. If you have a particular type of spell you'll be using a lot consider Spell Focus (note that not all spells allow a saving throw though, so check whether it applies to the ones you want to use).

Outside the core books, Practised Spellcaster (Complete Arcane/Complete Mage) and Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) are both excellent.

[TheHalfAasimar]

While the majority of people on here don't like playing past approximately 14th level, I'm currently DMing for a campaign which has gone all the way from levels 1 to 23 and is still going strong. Having said that a) we use quite a few houserules to keep some of the more gamebreaking stuff in check (there's some gamebreaking stuff in 3.5 all the way from level 1 if you look for it, but more at high levels) b) this is the first time I've ever managed to get that far, although in my case that's because gaming groups always break up before we get to high levels, not because we don't want to play at them.

There's a list [not enough posts for a url] which includes most of the really broken stuff in 3.5 (under spoiler in second post), obviously it's not perfect but it's the best one I've seen.

Ok, thanks! I find the Epic level rules interesting to read about, and would like to implement them into a 5e campaign, but thanks for the advice! I was also looking around the forums at older posts and stuff like that, and from what I got, a lot of the super broken stuff was the PHB, right? Anyways, thanks for the advice. I mean, I'll still use the PHB, but not for classes (as much)


EDIT: Ok then. So what exactly does Combat Casting do? I'm curious. But for a first time, I'd probably pick stuff like Fireball (it's a classic), Magic Missile (just good damage), because there isn't really a limit to spells I can know, just spells I can prepare. Yeah, I'd probably (as a wizard) specialize in Evocation, and my forbidden schools would be Divination and Transmutation. It's good to have a necromancy spell or two on hand. I think. Or maybe should a first build for Abjurant Champion be Abjuration as preferred and Divination and Transmutation be forbidden? So far, I've got the following:
Race: Elf
Stats (Most to least important): Int(for spellcasting), Con(so I have a bit of not tissue paper), Dex (for archery and AC), Str (for melee), Wis (for perception), Cha (I'm a wizard, not a face.)
2 level in Fighter (so BAB is +2)
6 levels of Wizard (for BAB requirements (minimum of +5 for Abjurant Champion, and spellcasting)
5 levels Abjurant Champion (for more spellcasting + it's good)
(If I ever get to this point)
All the rest in Arcane Archer.

However, if the DM says that Abjurant Champion is banned, then I'll take Eldritch Knight instead, but only have one level of fighter and five levels of wizard, so more levels of EK, how about 8 levels, and then all the rest of Arcane Archer.

Feats chosen:
Combat Casting (for Abjurant Champion)
Quicken Spell (metamagic)
Empower Spell (metamagic)
Point Blank Shot (for Arcane Archer)
Precise Shot (for Arcane Archer)
Weapon Focus (for Arcane Archer)

So when do you get feats? I think I'd have enough in total to get what I wanted. Basically I wanted to build something that could cast spells and attack from here, there, and everywhere. If I have any more feats, I'll have them go to Metamagic and the Dodge feat.

I shot a quick look at the SRD on the Fighter page, and two levels is enough for Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as bonus feats, and since I have 8 levels total of the fighter/wizard combo, that's enough for two feats from levelling up, and then one bonus feat for Wizard. So as for feats, here's what I've got so far:
lvl1: Fighter bonus feat for Point Blank Shot
lvl2: Fighter bonus feat for Precise Shot
lvl3: Wizard 1, fighter 2: Feat from existing, so Combat Casting it is.
Lvl4: Wizard 2: No feats.
Lvl5: Wizard 3: second level spells
Lvl6: Wizard 4: Feat from existing, Weapon Focus
Lvl7: Wizard 5: Bonus feat because wizard shenanigans: Quicken spell. Two fireballs in one turn because of 3rd level spells! yay!
Lvl8: AbjChmp1, Fighter 2, Wizard 5: No bonus feats yet.
Lvl9: AbjChmp2: Feat from existence: I choose Empower Spell because it multiplies all numerical stuff by 1.5
Lvl10: AbjChmp3: Nothing
Lvl11: AbjChmp4: Nothing
Lvl12: AbjChmp5: Feat from existing, Extend Spell
Lvl13: ArcArc1, AbjChmp5, Fighter 2, Wizard 5: Nothing
since I don't get more feats 'til later, I'll skip ahead:
Lvl 15: ArcArc3, feat from existence: Rapid Shot so I can fire even MORE arrows! Probably have a bad BAB though... Or at least decent.
Lvl 18: ArcAtc6, feat from existence: Manyshot. I am becoming a ranger but better.
Lvl 20: ArcArc8, so that I can have Hail of Arrows. I really will only probably get to 1 level of Arcane Archer, though, if we stop at just at the post-ten levels.

[Biggus]

Ok, thanks! I find the Epic level rules interesting to read about, and would like to implement them into a 5e campaign, but thanks for the advice! I was also looking around the forums at older posts and stuff like that, and from what I got, a lot of the super broken stuff was the PHB, right? Anyways, thanks for the advice. I mean, I'll still use the PHB, but not for classes (as much)

Yes, the PHB contains a lot of the most broken material, but it's more the spells than the classes per se. The only core class which is broken in itself IMO is the Monk, and that's because it's almost unplayably bad using only core material (outside of core there's enough stuff to make it half-decent if you shop around enough).

I edited my above post to include some feat suggestions but you were replying to it while I was editing it, you might want to have another look at it.

[TheHalfAasimar]

While the majority of people on here don't like playing past approximately 14th level, I'm currently DMing for a campaign which has gone all the way from levels 1 to 23 and is still going strong. Having said that a) we use quite a few houserules to keep some of the more gamebreaking stuff in check (there's some gamebreaking stuff in 3.5 all the way from level 1 if you look for it, but more at high levels) b) this is the first time I've ever managed to get that far, although in my case that's because gaming groups always break up before we get to high levels, not because we don't want to play at them.

There's a list [too young for urls] which includes most of the really broken stuff in 3.5 (under spoiler in second post), obviously it's not perfect but it's the best one I've seen.



Combat Casting isn't a very good feat, but it's worth losing one feat for all the good things you get from Abjurant Champion.

As for what feats to take, from the Player's Handbook Improved Initiative is always a good one to start with. You'll need Point Blank Shot as it's a prerequisite for all the other archery feats; Rapid Shot and Precise Shot are both very useful.

For metamagic, Extend Spell is very handy and at higher levels, Quicken Spell as it allows you to cast two spells per round. If you have a particular type of spell you'll be using a lot consider Spell Focus (note that not all spells allow a saving throw though, so check whether it applies to the ones you want to use).

Outside the core books, Practised Spellcaster (Complete Arcane/Complete Mage) and Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) are both excellent.

Yes, the PHB contains a lot of the most broken material, but it's more the spells than the classes per se. The only core class which is broken in itself IMO is the Monk, and that's because it's almost unplayably bad using only core material (outside of core there's enough stuff to make it half-decent if you shop around enough).

I edited my above post to include some feat suggestions but you were replying to it while I was editing it, you might want to have another look at it.

Oh, ok, I see. I will take that into consideration. I'd probably fix monk by playing a barbarian with an unarmed strike feat. And yeah, I looked at it and tried to make a half-competent build... although I'm really bordering on the edge of 'I should just play a ranger' and 'I should just play a Duskblade,' and 'I should just play a Paladin' or something like that... Is it any good? My first time building a full character. But thanks!

[Biggus]

EDIT: Ok then. So what exactly does Combat Casting do? I'm curious. But for a first time, I'd probably pick stuff like Fireball (it's a classic), Magic Missile (just good damage), because there isn't really a limit to spells I can know, just spells I can prepare. Yeah, I'd probably (as a wizard) specialize in Evocation, and my forbidden schools would be Divination and Transmutation. It's good to have a necromancy spell or two on hand. I think. Or maybe should a first build for Abjurant Champion be Abjuration as preferred and Divination and Transmutation be forbidden? So far, I've got the following:
Race: Elf
Stats (Most to least important): Int(for spellcasting), Con(so I have a bit of not tissue paper), Dex (for archery and AC), Str (for melee), Wis (for perception), Cha (I'm a wizard, not a face.)
2 level in Fighter (so BAB is +2)
6 levels of Wizard (for BAB requirements (minimum of +5 for Abjurant Champion, and spellcasting)
5 levels Abjurant Champion (for more spellcasting + it's good)
(If I ever get to this point)
All the rest in Arcane Archer.

However, if the DM says that Abjurant Champion is banned, then I'll take Eldritch Knight instead, but only have one level of fighter and five levels of wizard, so more levels of EK, how about 8 levels, and then all the rest of Arcane Archer.

Feats chosen:
Combat Casting (for Abjurant Champion)
Quicken Spell (metamagic)
Empower Spell (metamagic)
Point Blank Shot (for Arcane Archer)
Precise Shot (for Arcane Archer)
Weapon Focus (for Arcane Archer)

So when do you get feats? I think I'd have enough in total to get what I wanted. Basically I wanted to build something that could cast spells and attack from here, there, and everywhere. If I have any more feats, I'll have them go to Metamagic and the Dodge feat.

I shot a quick look at the SRD on the Fighter page, and two levels is enough for Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as bonus feats, and since I have 8 levels total of the fighter/wizard combo, that's enough for two feats from levelling up, and then one bonus feat for Wizard. So as for feats, here's what I've got so far:
lvl1: Fighter bonus feat for Point Blank Shot
lvl2: Fighter bonus feat for Precise Shot
lvl3: Wizard 1, fighter 2: Feat from existing, so Combat Casting it is.
Lvl4: Wizard 2: No feats.
Lvl5: Wizard 3: second level spells
Lvl6: Wizard 4: Feat from existing, Weapon Focus
Lvl7: Wizard 5: Bonus feat because wizard shenanigans: Quicken spell. Two fireballs in one turn because of 3rd level spells! yay!
Lvl8: AbjChmp1, Fighter 2, Wizard 5: No bonus feats yet.
Lvl9: AbjChmp2: Feat from existence: I choose Empower Spell because it multiplies all numerical stuff by 1.5
Lvl10: AbjChmp3: Nothing
Lvl11: AbjChmp4: Nothing
Lvl12: AbjChmp5: Feat from existing, Extend Spell
Lvl13: ArcArc1, AbjChmp5, Fighter 2, Wizard 5: Nothing
since I don't get more feats 'til later, I'll skip ahead:
Lvl 15: ArcArc3, feat from existence: Rapid Shot so I can fire even MORE arrows! Probably have a bad BAB though... Or at least decent.
Lvl 18: ArcAtc6, feat from existence: Manyshot. I am becoming a ranger but better.
Lvl 20: ArcArc8, so that I can have Hail of Arrows. I really will only probably get to 1 level of Arcane Archer, though, if we stop at just at the post-ten levels.

I'd advise only taking two levels of Arcane Archer as per your original build, because it doesn't progress spellcasting. Imbue Arrow at level 2 is its best ability. I'd probably go to Eldritch Knight for your remaining levels once you've got Abjurant Champion 5 and Arcane Archer 2. You might also want to take one level of the Spellsword class from Complete Warrior (but not more as you'll lose a lot of spellcasting). As you say, this may be irrelevant anyway if the DM isn't planning to go past middle levels.

Quicken Spell increases the effective spell level of the spell you're casting by four, so it's not worth taking until you've got at least 5th-level spells. Tbh it's probably worth leaving it until you get 6th or 7th level spells because you won't get much use out of it until then. There are feats which can reduce the spell slot increase (which are generally known as metamagic reducers) but I didn't mention them as I was trying not to bombard you with information, as this is your first 3.5 game. If you get to middle levels in the game it's worth having a look at them though.

What Combat Casting does: when you cast a spell while in melee combat, you have to make a Concentration skill check to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, as it's hard to concentrate on avoiding blows and casting a spell at the same time. CC gives a +4 bonus to that Concentration check. As an archer you're probably going to be avoiding getting into melee range where possible, but inevitably it'll happen sometimes.

[Darg]

Yes, the PHB contains a lot of the most broken material, but it's more the spells than the classes per se. The only core class which is broken in itself IMO is the Monk, and that's because it's almost unplayably bad using only core material (outside of core there's enough stuff to make it half-decent if you shop around enough).

I edited my above post to include some feat suggestions but you were replying to it while I was editing it, you might want to have another look at it.

Monk is as perfectly playable in core as any other mundane class is. Core just doesn't expect players would min/max using a point buy system as it expects an average of 12 or 13 per ability score. It also expects the group's spellcasters provide some party buffs. For example, monk is the best class to receive a polymorph. A monk poly'ed into an elephant or dire lion is going to literally tear everything apart while keeping all of the class benefits.

[TheHalfAasimar]

I'd advise only taking two levels of Arcane Archer as per your original build, because it doesn't progress spellcasting. Imbue Arrow at level 2 is its best ability. I'd probably go to Eldritch Knight for your remaining levels once you've got Abjurant Champion 5 and Arcane Archer 2. You might also want to take one level of the Spellsword class from Complete Warrior (but not more as you'll lose a lot of spellcasting). As you say, this may be irrelevant anyway if the DM isn't planning to go past middle levels.

Quicken Spell increases the effective spell level of the spell you're casting by four, so it's not worth taking until you've got at least 5th-level spells. Tbh it's probably worth leaving it until you get 6th or 7th level spells because you won't get much use out of it until then. There are feats which can reduce the spell slot increase (which are generally known as metamagic reducers) but I didn't mention them as I was trying not to bombard you with information, as this is your first 3.5 game. If you get to middle levels in the game it's worth having a look at them though.

What Combat Casting does: when you cast a spell while in melee combat, you have to make a Concentration skill check to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, as it's hard to concentrate on avoiding blows and casting a spell at the same time. CC gives a +4 bonus to that Concentration check. As an archer you're probably going to be avoiding getting into melee range where possible, but inevitably it'll happen sometimes.

Ah, I see. Thanks! I'll ditch the other 6 levels of Arcane Archer so I have the first 2 instead, and go Eldritch Knight or progress as Wizard. Bladesinger would probably not mesh well, and Spellsword only gets +spellcasting every other level. Eldritch Knight it is! Thanks!

EDIT: So all in all, with the 5 levels of Wizard, 5 levels of Abjurant Champion, and 6 levels of Eldritch Knight, I have the spells-per-day of a 15th level wizard all in all, but nothing else. I just cast spells as a 15th level wizard. So that gives me 8th level spells, if I did the math right, so quickening a Fireball is semi-reasonable, it just burns through a 7th level slot.

[Troacctid]

I would recommend duskblade over eldritch knight, as it is a lot easier to play and to build.

The trouble with eldritch knight is it doesn't do a good job of mixing spells and swords. It makes you worse at spells because you diluted your wizard levels with fighter levels, but it comes online late in the game where swordplay is falling off as a strategy, at which point it fails to give you a reason for why you would bother to pick up a sword instead of pointing at your target and making their head explode with magic.

Duskblade is much better at integrating the two strategies together in a smooth and cohesive way that plays to the strengths of both.

[TheHalfAasimar]

I would recommend duskblade over eldritch knight, as it is a lot easier to play and to build.

The trouble with eldritch knight is it doesn't do a good job of mixing spells and swords. It makes you worse at spells because you diluted your wizard levels with fighter levels, but it comes online late in the game where swordplay is falling off as a strategy, at which point it fails to give you a reason for why you would bother to pick up a sword instead of pointing at your target and making their head explode with magic.

Duskblade is much better at integrating the two strategies together in a smooth and cohesive way that plays to the strengths of both.

Okay, I see what you're getting at, but I don't want to have XP penalties, hence why I have two classes, and I didn't want to use too many books. But I would like to play a Duskblade. But really, doesn't the eldritch knight give you spellcasting after a bonus feat? And I'm taking 6 levels? I mean, odds are it's not going to actually happen because high level play is rare, so I'm mostly just a wizard/fighter/AbjChmp/2 levels of arcane archer

[Troacctid]

Okay, I see what you're getting at, but I don't want to have XP penalties, hence why I have two classes, and I didn't want to use too many books. But I would like to play a Duskblade. But really, doesn't the eldritch knight give you spellcasting after a bonus feat? And I'm taking 6 levels? I mean, odds are it's not going to actually happen because high level play is rare, so I'm mostly just a wizard/fighter/AbjChmp/2 levels of arcane archer

Spellcasting scales with more spellcasting, so taking a couple of levels off makes your spellcasting fall behind, and the multiclass build pays you off for it in a very stilted and uneven way that doesn't always line up smoothly with your level progression, so it has a tendency to feel like you're trying to do two things and not doing either of them well because the one is just dead weight for the other.

Duskblade, on the other hand, has a really smooth progression that balances its two aspects nicely and synthesizes them together so that, unlike eldritch knight, it's actually greater than the sum of its parts.

If you do want to run a multiclass build, I think you should try and be a fighter first and a wizard second. Why? Because having just a little bit of wizardry on a fighter makes the character more interesting and versatile without taking too much away from your main strategy. On the other hand, having just a little bit of fighter on a wizard is pointless, because when you're mostly a wizard, there isn't actually any advantage to wielding a weapon—you'll do more damage by polymorphing yourself into a hydra, or by casting a direct damage spell. So it makes more sense to be mostly a fighter, dip one level of wizard (or Suel arcanamach if you're feeling spicy) for abjurant champion, and then use the abjurant champion casting to qualify for eldritch knight, or knight phantom, or spellsword, havoc mage, swiftblade, etc.

[TheHalfAasimar]

Spellcasting scales with more spellcasting, so taking a couple of levels off makes your spellcasting fall behind, and the multiclass build pays you off for it in a very stilted and uneven way that doesn't always line up smoothly with your level progression, so it has a tendency to feel like you're trying to do two things and not doing either of them well because the one is just dead weight for the other.

Duskblade, on the other hand, has a really smooth progression that balances its two aspects nicely and synthesizes them together so that, unlike eldritch knight, it's actually greater than the sum of its parts.

If you do want to run a multiclass build, I think you should try and be a fighter first and a wizard second. Why? Because having just a little bit of wizardry on a fighter makes the character more interesting and versatile without taking too much away from your main strategy. On the other hand, having just a little bit of fighter on a wizard is pointless, because when you're mostly a wizard, there isn't actually any advantage to wielding a weapon—you'll do more damage by polymorphing yourself into a hydra, or by casting a direct damage spell. So it makes more sense to be mostly a fighter, dip one level of wizard (or Suel arcanamach if you're feeling spicy) for abjurant champion, and then use the abjurant champion casting to qualify for eldritch knight, or knight phantom, or spellsword, havoc mage, swiftblade, etc.

So what I'm getting at is... switch the wizard and fighter levels? I mean, wizards are made of tissue paper, and having good spellcasting at the cost of a little less health is probably fine, especially, as you mentioned, Abjurant Champion does up spellcasting, and so does Eldritch Knight. And then Arcane Archer is mostly just there to support the 'here there and everywhere NOW YOU'RE DEAD' approach. So yeah, thanks for the advice!

[Biggus]

I would recommend duskblade over eldritch knight, as it is a lot easier to play and to build.

Depends how bothered you are about being an archer; I didn't suggest Duskblade because its key special ability (Arcane Channelling) only works in melee. Also, its spell list is pretty lousy. It's certainlky much simpler for a beginner though.

[TheHalfAasimar]

Depends how bothered you are about being an archer; I didn't suggest Duskblade because its key special ability (Arcane Channelling) only works in melee. Also, its spell list is pretty lousy. It's certainlky much simpler for a beginner though.

Yeah, I wanted to focus on both melee and ranged attacking, hence the Abjurant Champion and Arcane Archer. But thanks for mentioning that!

[Darg]

Yeah, I wanted to focus on both melee and ranged attacking, hence the Abjurant Champion and Arcane Archer. But thanks for mentioning that!

If you want, you could use the Paizo redesign of the Arcane Archer class. It would allow you to do exactly what you are wanting out of your build with the downside that you need +6 BAB to qualify. Which means it's a minimum level 8 entry unless you enter using 6 levels of duskblade.

[TheHalfAasimar]

If you want, you could use the Paizo redesign of the Arcane Archer class. It would allow you to do exactly what you are wanting out of your build with the downside that you need +6 BAB to qualify. Which means it's a minimum level 8 entry unless you enter using 6 levels of duskblade.

WOW THAT REDESIGN IS MORE AWESOME THAN THE ORIGINAL

But for real though, it's much cooler. Like, who doesn't want an arrow that explodes in lightning/ice/fire? Or an arrow that can snipe with Fireball (or I guess a touch-range spell) but yeah, the Paizo redesign is so cool! Now all I'd need is a nice DM so I could use it in a 3.5 campaign...

But yeah, thanks! I really like the redesign. Thanks for the advice!

[Darg]

WOW THAT REDESIGN IS MORE AWESOME THAN THE ORIGINAL

But for real though, it's much cooler. Like, who doesn't want an arrow that explodes in lightning/ice/fire? Or an arrow that can snipe with Fireball (or I guess a touch-range spell) but yeah, the Paizo redesign is so cool! Now all I'd need is a nice DM so I could use it in a 3.5 campaign...

But yeah, thanks! I really like the redesign. Thanks for the advice!

The enhance arrow feature does nothing more than what you could already purchase/find/make. So really it's just a money saver. Pathfinder is mostly backwards compatible and the AA PrC isn't out of line with the 3.5 chassis so it should be alright for a direct port with an adjustment to the available class skills.

[TheHalfAasimar]

The enhance arrow feature does nothing more than what you could already purchase/find/make. So really it's just a money saver. Pathfinder is mostly backwards compatible and the AA PrC isn't out of line with the 3.5 chassis so it should be alright for a direct port with an adjustment to the available class skills.

Great! Now the only limit is the DM, because he controls all. And it's great that I get more spells from the Arcane Archer levels, but how many should I take? Because the 7th level ability is pretty cool.

[Biggus]

Great! Now the only limit is the DM, because he controls all. And it's great that I get more spells from the Arcane Archer levels, but how many should I take? Because the 7th level ability is pretty cool.

If your DM is ok with you mixing Pathfinder and 3.5, you could go Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Arcane Archer 8/Abjurant Champion +4 or Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Arcane Archer 8/Abjurant Champion +3.

It'd probably be a good idea to ask the DM if he knows roughly what level the campaign is expected to go to, as that might affect your build choices.

[Kurald Galain]

If your DM is ok with you mixing Pathfinder and 3.5, you could go

Or you could go with Magus (Eldritch Archer) 8 / Arcane Archer 8 / Magus +2, which has good synergy and action economy.

Lots of options there Monk (zen archer) is also a good one to consider instead of fighter; or possibly Paladin (divine hunter).

[TheHalfAasimar]

If your DM is ok with you mixing Pathfinder and 3.5, you could go Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Arcane Archer 8/Abjurant Champion +4 or Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Arcane Archer 8/Abjurant Champion +3.

It'd probably be a good idea to ask the DM if he knows roughly what level the campaign is expected to go to, as that might affect your build choices.

Or you could go with Magus (Eldritch Archer) 8 / Arcane Archer 8 / Magus +2, which has good synergy and action economy.

Lots of options there Monk (zen archer) is also a good one to consider instead of fighter; or possibly Paladin (divine hunter).

Whoa, thanks! I will keep all that in mind! Thanks!