Best support classes?

[lall]

The issue is that Ranger just doesn't do anything particularly well that you can't get other places.

I think the Fey Wanderer’s Otherworldly Glamour is the only way to add WIS to CHA checks (though the Artificer’s Flash of Genius allows you to add INT). I wouldn’t take 3 levels of Ranger for it, but it is cool.

[RogueJK]

I think the Fey Wanderer’s Otherworldly Glamour is the only way to add WIS to CHA checks

Samurai Fighters can add WIS to Persuasion checks.

[JellyPooga]

The issue is that Ranger just doesn't do anything particularly well that you can't get other places.

I disagree, at least in terms of looking at Ranger for a dip (to which I mean, at most three levels).

Ranger offers an additional skill proficiency, additional weapon and armour proficiencies, an additional expertise (or the Natural Explorer benefits, if you prefer), spellcasting (albeit low level), Favoured Enemy (including its additional language) and a Fighting Style before even looking at subclass benefits. Yes, some of these are offered by other classes, but not all; Ranger adds solid diversity and general additional competence where other Classes might offer more specialised or limited (by use per rest or by other constraint) fare.

Could you also get similar diversity from multiple multiclassss (e.g. Bard 1/Druid 1/Fighter 1 instead of Ranger 3)? Yes, you could. Paticularly if you're looking at a Dex/Wis/Cha build anyway. It might even be better in some aspects. In the example case, you'd get Cantrips, Second Wind and Bardic Inspiration and you'd know Druidic at the expense of the Expertise, or Natural Explorer, plus Favoured Enemy and the subclass benefits that Ranger offers. And you'd have to deal with Druidic armour restrictions, not to mention any other roleplaying aspects to developing such a build. Personally, I'd just take Ranger if only because it's less hassel.

Ranger also offers the only additional attack that isn't gated by limited uses for a 3 level buy-in. I'd say that's worth a second mention.

In the context of adding facility to StRogue to add support options, Ranger offers more of what Rogue does already in terms of support rather than additional functions; kind of like if Rogues were magic swords, Ranger/Rogue is a +1 Rogue instead of a Flaming Rogue.

[LudicSavant]

Expanding on the comments about Grave vs Life Domain healing earlier:

Life Domain Clerics
Life domain is a game changer in terms of healing, granting hundreds of extra HP of healing over other clerics. Unlike typical clerics, you can genuinely out-heal damage in-combat, and out of combat you will be spending markedly fewer spell slots to get the party back to healthy condition.

For example, say you have a level 6 Paladin, and they got knocked down to zero. You can use a level 1 Healing Word and a Channel Divinity to generate 43.5 hit points (with 36 of that hp going to the Paladin, and the rest being spread around the party). For perspective, a level 6 character with a d10 HD and 14 Con has 52 hit points. And all you spent is one of your 6 Channel Divinities for the day (if that day has 2 short rests) and a level 1 spell slot.

Another note is that all this healing doesn't necessarily mean you're just going to be a healbot. On the contrary: Since you can get the party's healing done with fewer slots, you have more slots left over for other stuff, like Spirit Guardians and so forth.

Aura of Vitality in an L3 slot heals 125 hit points over its duration, compared to 70 from a normal Cleric. That's +55 hp, or 179% extra healing -- nearly double!

This is a positively gigantic heal and makes it very easy to keep your party topped off for every encounter. Remember what I said about how a level 6 character has like 50 hit points? Yeah, this is a full party heal.

Channel Divinity scales fairly aggressively (ending up with a pool of 900 hp / 2 short rest day at high levels). Additionally, since it's not a spell, you can cast a bonus action spell in the same turn (such as Spiritual Weapon, Sanctuary, Healing Word, Mass Healing Word, Shield of Faith, Divine Word, etc).

Healing Word with DoL+Blessed Healer and a level 1 slot heals for 13.5 hp -- about 180% of what a normal Cleric gets out of it. Or to look at it another way, an upcast level 2 Cure Wounds heals 14 hp. A Celestial Warlock using a 4d6 Healing Light bonus action heals 14 hp. A level 1 Absorb Elements against a failed Fireball save is 13.5 average hp. A level 3 Armor of Agathys gives 15 temp HP.

Mass Healing Word on a Life Cleric is enough to undo more than half of the effect of a Fireball hitting the whole party for a bonus action of the same spell level. Try comboing it with the Channel Divinity!

Mass Cure Wounds on a Life Cleric is healing 25.5 per target, and 32.5 to yourself (or a total of 109 hp to a party of 4). Or to put it another way, it's about 1.5x as much healing to 4 targets as a standard Cleric's version.

For perspective, if a party's failing 50% of saves for half, a Cone of Cold will do 27 average damage per target.

Regenerate On a regular Cleric, this is 1 healing per round for 600 rounds. On a Life Cleric, it's 10 healing per round for 600 rounds -- basically like someone's casting a buffed Healing Word on you at the start of each of your turns every round, action-economy free. So yes, this yo-yos, too.

So basically what you can do is cast this on someone out of combat to fully heal them, then have them just sort of not worry about healing for an hour's worth of encounters afterwards. Doesn't require Concentration!

Life Transference Normally this heals ~36 at the cost of 18 damage to yourself (net 18). On a Life Cleric it heals for 41 at the cost of 13 damage to yourself (net 28). And since you keep healing yourself whether you want to or not from Blessed Healer, that damage will likely go away in a while anyways. 41 hp is nearly a full life bar for an early tier 2 character.

___

Now the Grave Cleric's healing compares fairly poorly with all of this. "Maximize" might sound like a lot, but a level 1 Healing Word will only gain +1.5 damage from being maximized. Same for a Mass Healing Word. Cure Wounds will only get +3.5 from being maximized (compared to a +3 from DoL, and another +3 from Blessed Healer). Life Transference isn't boosted at all. Aura of Vitality will only be boosted on the turn that it yo-yos (and even then, it's just +5... the same amount that DoL alone gives on every turn). Regenerate won't be boosted. Heal won't be boosted.

Grave Cleric's feature perhaps combos best with one of the weakest healing spells in the game: Cure Wounds. But even then, it's only granting +3.5 healing per spell level, and upcasting Cure Wounds is uh... expensive.

Their level 6 feature is more valuable, but it's capped in uses per day, and (outside of a few rare exceptions) and crits only add so many dice of damage. Also, crits by their nature are unreliable -- some days you won't get 5 separate crits spread out across different turns.

Grave's Channel of Divinity is potentially nice, if you have an ally who hits meaningfully harder than you could with an Action + resource. Also you gotta make sure the initiative lines up, or use a Ready. Sharpshooter Fighter attacks alone aren't enough to make this pay off, you want like, a big juicy smite.

[lall]

Samurai Fighters can add WIS to Persuasion checks.

Ah yeah, that is true. Better bang for the buck though with the Fey Wanderer. For example, three levels of Ranger for Otherworldly Glamour and three levels of Fighter for the Battle Master’s Commanding Presence is preferable to seven levels spent getting Elegant Courtier (if you’re only focused on CHA checks).

[TheHalfAasimar]

Samurai Fighters can add WIS to Persuasion checks.

Now that you mention Samurai Fighters, I've been thinking up a Samurai/Swasbuckler build for advantage at will, and then Sneak Attacks whenever you're more than five feet away from stuff, so basically Sneak Attacks at will.

[LudicSavant]

Light Domain Cleric (PHB)
Life domain Cleric (PHB)
Forge domain Cleric (XgTE)

Grave Domain cleric

I've already mentioned my thoughts on Grave vs Life. So now for Forge and Light.

Light Domain Cleric is the more resource-efficient of the two blaster Clerics, and has considerably better area coverage.

Why is it more resource efficient than Tempest? Well, let me put it this way. A Fireball does 28 average damage with a 3rd level slot. A Maximized Upcast Shatter does a fairly similar 32, except it costs the slot and a Channel Divinity for a single output, and it has an itty bitty 10 foot radius compared to Fireball's juicy 20-foot (and remember, a doubled radius means four times the 2D area, and 8 times the 3D volume. So the difference is pretty big here).

Meanwhile, the Light Cleric's channel divinity is an entirely separate resource, that hits an enormous 65 foot diameter that ignores friendly fire, and does a respectable 2d10+level damage. At level 2 this already does more damage than a 2nd level Shatter, in about 10x the area (or 20x the volume). By level 20, it does 31 damage, so in a 2 short rest day you're basically getting 9 extra AoEs that do more damage than Fireball, in a far larger area of effect, that deals one of the best damage types in the game (Radiant), and gives enemies Disadvantage on the save. No extra spell slots required. You can just make that your basic attack at that point.

See what I mean about resource efficiency? Tempest is using their Channel Divinity to boost weak blasting spells into decent ones. Light Cleric just already has Fireball, and uses their Channel Divinity to cast more and separate blasts which are (usually) worth more than Harness Divine Power spell slots in their own right.

Their level 17 ability, Corona of Light, is also better than it might appear at first blush. It only lasts a minute, but it's like Shillelagh -- there's nothing whatsoever stopping you from just casting it infinitely, so you can potentially just have it on whenever, and it's giving Disadvantage on saves against not only your own blasts, but any from party members as well -- like, say, if your wizard buddy throws a Meteor Swarm.

Warding Flare is only okay. Disadvantage is nice and all, but it's held back by the fact that it's used before the roll rather than after, making it worse than something like, say, Runic Shield. You can think of Warding Flare as a relatively small handful of extra hit points per day.

The spell list is a treat. Fireball of course never stops being good, Wall of Fire is a fantastic combo spell (remember, it doesn't give saving throws if people are pushed through it! Use this to buzzsaw bosses to death), Burning Hands is the highest direct damage AoE in both a 1st and 2nd level slot (but generally not worth using much beyond low levels), Faerie Fire is better utility than it seems (let me put it this way: objects do not get a saving throw against the 'see invisibility' part. Probably unintended, but c'est la vie), Guardian of Faith is solid since it lasts a bloody long time without Concentration, and Scorching Ray is situational but can be solid on some builds (for example, an MPMM Bugbear Cleric).

Great, A tier subclass. If you want to mix in blasting with your support, go for it.

Forge Domain Cleric
So Forge has a couple of niggling issues:
1) Its Channel Divinity is very subpar. Not only is it a little underwhelming on a use-for-use basis, but it also takes an hour, so it's unlikely you're even going to get to use it the full number of times per day. Thankfully, you can use Harness Divine Power from Tasha's instead, but you can only use that so many times per day.
2) Its ability to create +1 items is very likely to have diminishing returns or go fully obsolete at some point in the campaign if the game isn't especially stingy with magic items.
3) Almost all of its domain spell list is Concentration, and Clerics already have stiff competition for their Concentration.

Despite these shortcomings, it's a decent subclass. The Tasha's variants help cover some of its weaknesses (replace the Divine Strike with Blessed Strikes, and use Harness Channel Divinity), it has some good spells (like Wall of Fire and Animate Objects), and getting +1-2 AC and Fire Resistance is a good thing, as is nonmagical weapon resistance and fire immunity at high levels.

This is a Cleric that loves to wade into battle on the front lines with Dodge+Spirit Guardians, letting enemies melt away as they try in vain to harm you.

[RogueJK]

Now that you mention Samurai Fighters, I've been thinking up a Samurai/Swasbuckler build for advantage at will, and then Sneak Attacks whenever you're more than five feet away from stuff, so basically Sneak Attacks at will.

There are much better options for a multiclass Rogue to get frequent Advantage than Samurai Fighters, which can only do it 2x rounds per day (until 10th level, and then it's still only 1x round per combat). Sure it's technically "at will", but with extremely limited daily uses.

Whereas a spellcasting class is a good alternative, since there are tons of spells that can help you generate Advantage, which you'll almost certainly be able to use more than 2x rounds per day or even 1x round per combat. Stuff like Darkness/Fog Cloud/Shadow of Moil/Blindness/Find Familiar (Help)/Entangle/Web/Grease/Hideous Laughter/Hold Person/Shadow Blade/Improved Invisibility/etc.

Or there are class abilities like the Barbarian's Reckless Attack that can be used to generate Advantage at will an unlimited number of times per day. (STR-based Barbarian/Rogues are awesome!)

Or there are other class/subclass abilities that are more situational or more limited, but still usable more than just 2x/day, like Wolf Totem Barbarian, Battlemaster Feint/Trip maneuvers, etc.

Or there's even just using Athletics to Shove Prone.

So the Samurai and their Fighting Spirit ability is pretty far down the list of the best "Advantage Generators".

[TheHalfAasimar]

I've already mentioned my thoughts on Grave vs Life. So now for Forge and Light.

Light Domain Cleric is the more resource-efficient of the two blaster Clerics, and has considerably better area coverage.

Why is it more resource efficient than Tempest? Well, let me put it this way. A Fireball does 28 average damage with a 3rd level slot. A Maximized Upcast Shatter does a fairly similar 32, except it costs the slot and a Channel Divinity for a single output, and it has an itty bitty 10 foot radius compared to Fireball's juicy 20-foot (and remember, a doubled radius means four times the 2D area, and 8 times the 3D volume. So the difference is pretty big here).

Meanwhile, the Light Cleric's channel divinity is an entirely separate resource, that hits an enormous 65 foot diameter that ignores friendly fire, and does a respectable 2d10+level damage. At level 2 this already does more damage than a 2nd level Shatter, in about 10x the area (or 20x the volume). By level 20, it does 31 damage, so in a 2 short rest day you're basically getting 9 extra AoEs that do more damage than Fireball, in a far larger area of effect, that deals one of the best damage types in the game (Radiant), and gives enemies Disadvantage on the save. No extra spell slots required. You can just make that your basic attack at that point.

See what I mean about resource efficiency? Tempest is using their Channel Divinity to boost weak blasting spells into decent ones. Light Cleric just already has Fireball, and uses their Channel Divinity to cast more and separate blasts which are (usually) worth more than Harness Divine Power spell slots in their own right.

Their level 17 ability, Corona of Light, is also better than it might appear at first blush. It only lasts a minute, but it's like Shillelagh -- there's nothing whatsoever stopping you from just casting it infinitely, so you can potentially just have it on whenever, and it's giving Disadvantage on saves against not only your own blasts, but any from party members as well -- like, say, if your wizard buddy throws a Meteor Swarm.

Warding Flare is only okay. Disadvantage is nice and all, but it's held back by the fact that it's used before the roll rather than after, making it worse than something like, say, Runic Shield. You can think of Warding Flare as a relatively small handful of extra hit points per day.

The spell list is a treat. Fireball of course never stops being good, Wall of Fire is a fantastic combo spell (remember, it doesn't give saving throws if people are pushed through it! Use this to buzzsaw bosses to death), Burning Hands is the highest direct damage AoE in both a 1st and 2nd level slot (but generally not worth using much beyond low levels), Faerie Fire is better utility than it seems (let me put it this way: objects do not get a saving throw against the 'see invisibility' part. Probably unintended, but c'est la vie), Guardian of Faith is solid since it lasts a bloody long time without Concentration, and Scorching Ray is situational but can be solid on some builds (for example, an MPMM Bugbear Cleric).

Great, A tier subclass. If you want to mix in blasting with your support, go for it.

Forge Domain Cleric
So Forge has a couple of niggling issues:
1) Its Channel Divinity is very subpar. Not only is it a little underwhelming on a use-for-use basis, but it also takes an hour, so it's unlikely you're even going to get to use it the full number of times per day. Thankfully, you can use Harness Divine Power from Tasha's instead, but you can only use that so many times per day.
2) Its ability to create +1 items is very likely to have diminishing returns or go fully obsolete at some point in the campaign if the game isn't especially stingy with magic items.
3) Almost all of its domain spell list is Concentration, and Clerics already have stiff competition for their Concentration.

Despite these shortcomings, it's a decent subclass. The Tasha's variants help cover some of its weaknesses (replace the Divine Strike with Blessed Strikes, and use Harness Channel Divinity), it has some good spells (like Wall of Fire and Animate Objects), and getting +1-2 AC and Fire Resistance is a good thing, as is nonmagical weapon resistance and fire immunity at high levels.

This is a Cleric that loves to wade into battle on the front lines with Dodge+Spirit Guardians, letting enemies melt away as they try in vain to harm you.

I see what you're saying! I think that a Light domain cleric would work as both a DPS and a healer role, but more focused on blasting. But thanks for that!

[stoutstien]

Forge cleric is middle of the road for a domain but making platinum scalemail over the course of an adventure by converting scraps is just fun.

[Unoriginal]

Now that you mention Samurai Fighters, I've been thinking up a Samurai/Swasbuckler build for advantage at will, and then Sneak Attacks whenever you're more than five feet away from stuff, so basically Sneak Attacks at will.

The thing with Swashbuckler is they already get "basically Sneak Attacks at will" when in melee.

Swashbuckler/Samurai would be far from bad, but you'd get more benefit from a different Rogue subclass if what you want this combo for the at-will-Sneak-Attack part (rather than the things Swashbuckler can do with CHA, for example).

[TheHalfAasimar]

The thing with Swashbuckler is they already get "basically Sneak Attacks at will" when in melee.

Swashbuckler/Samurai would be far from bad, but you'd get more benefit from a different Rogue subclass if what you want this combo for the at-will-Sneak-Attack part (rather than the things Swashbuckler can do with CHA, for example).

Okay, good point. I think maybe Thief or Mastermind would work better..?

[Arkhios]

Paladin with Charisma as their primary score is very much a support class. After 6th level, they can pretty much just stand there and dodge in the middle of a fight and they provide the best support the game has in terms of class abilities, always on and passive at that. Oath of the Ancients is even better, starting at 7th level.

[TheHalfAasimar]

Paladin with Charisma as their primary score is very much a support class. After 6th level, they can pretty much just stand there and dodge in the middle of a fight and they provide the best support the game has in terms of class abilities, always on and passive at that. Oath of the Ancients is even better, starting at 7th level.

Okay, I see where you're getting at. Thanks for the suggestion!

[LudicSavant]

I see what you're saying! I think that a Light domain cleric would work as both a DPS and a healer role, but more focused on blasting. But thanks for that!

For most clerics filling the healer role is not going to mean using direct in-combat heals, so much as it is using stuff like...

- Crucial status effect removal (like Lesser Restoration or Greater Restoration or Revivify).
- Buffs that make people harder to hurt (like Heroes Feast or Bless or Sanctuary).
- Non-combat healing (like Aura of Vitality healing 70 hp)
- Yo-yo healing (like Healing Word)

Though you can still burst heal with Life Transference or Heal or Mass Heal.

If you want to be healing people with direct, in-combat heals, Life is the way to go.

[TheHalfAasimar]

For most clerics filling the healer role is not going to mean using direct in-combat heals, so much as it is using stuff like...

- Crucial status effect removal (like Lesser Restoration or Greater Restoration or Revivify).
- Buffs that make people harder to hurt (like Heroes Feast or Bless or Sanctuary).
- Non-combat healing (like Aura of Vitality healing 70 hp)
- Yo-yo healing (like Healing Word)

Though you can still burst heal with Life Transference or Heal or Mass Heal.

If you want to be healing people with direct, in-combat heals, Life is the way to go.

I see what you're saying. Thanks!

[KorvinStarmast]

OH BOY THAT'S GREAT! I can now just imagine a bard just shoving people around and stuff! Then that becomes a very battlefield control, which is another thing I'd like to play.

My bard's background was sailor. Athletics. I gave her expertise. With a 12 Strength, her ability shove and grapple surprised a few opponents, to include a beholder / Death Tyrant during a tier 3 adventure: a successful grapple reduces speed to 0. (Yes, he chomped on her a bit). That allowed the other three party members to maneuver a bit and then finish him off. Luckily, bard made her saves versus the little eyeshots ... had she not, she might have been charmed or petrified into letting go of the grapple.

Paladin with Charisma as their primary score is very much a support class. After 6th level, they can pretty much just stand there and dodge in the middle of a fight and they provide the best support the game has in terms of class abilities, always on and passive at that. Oath of the Ancients is even better, starting at 7th level.

My Watchers paladin deliberately maxed Charisma at the expense of other choices for ASI. Two benefits: when I did cast a spell, Save DC as good. Aura gave very nice save bonuses. Had I taken the Inspiring Leader feat (I did not) I think my support role would have been even better.

[TheHalfAasimar]

My bard's background was sailor. Athletics. I gave her expertise. With a 12 Strength, her ability shove and grapple surprised a few opponents, to include a beholder during a tier 3 adventure: a successful grapple reduces speed to 0. (Yes, he chomped on her a bit). That allowed the other three party members to maneuver a bit and then finish him off. Luckily, bard made her saves versus the little eyeshots ... had she not, she might have been charmed or petrified into letting go of the grapple.
My Watchers paladin deliberately maxed Charisma at the expense of other choices for ASI. Two benefits: when I did cast a spell, Save DC as good. Aura gave very nice save bonuses. Had I taken the Inspiring Leader feat (I did not) I think my support role would have been even better.

That sounded fun!

[KorvinStarmast]

That sounded fun!

She was also good at getting out of grapples. Handy when we ran into stuff like Ropers (early game) or a Kraken (late game).

[TheHalfAasimar]

She was also good at getting out of grapples. Handy when we ran into stuff like Ropers (early game) or a Kraken (late game).

A kraken? Cool! That sounds fun!

[KorvinStarmast]

A kraken? Cool! That sounds fun!

It was fun.

It killed our hexblade. (I revived him with revivify).
It swallowed my bard. (I DD'd out).
It made our paladin(Glory) fight hard to win. (I had cast freedom of movement on him...)
It tried to poison all of us. (Heh, I had cast Heroes feast ahead of time, no poison! )
It drove our sorlock a bit nuts as he tried to hit it with stuff that bothered it.

Spoiler: Heroes' Feast

Show

A creature that partakes of the feast gains several benefits. The creature is cured of all diseases and poison, becomes immune to poison and being frightened, and makes all Wisdom saving throws with advantage. Its hit point maximum also increases by 2d10, and it gains the same number of hit points. These benefits last for 24 hours.

[TheHalfAasimar]

It was fun.

It killed our hexblade. (I revived him with revivify).
It swallowed my bard. (I DD'd out).
It made our paladin(Glory) fight hard to win. (I had cast freedom of movement on him...)
It tried to poison all of us. (Heh, I had cast Heroes feast ahead of time, no poison! )
It drove our sorlock a bit nuts as he tried to hit it with stuff that bothered it.

Spoiler: Heroes' Feast

Show

A creature that partakes of the feast gains several benefits. The creature is cured of all diseases and poison, becomes immune to poison and being frightened, and makes all Wisdom saving throws with advantage. Its hit point maximum also increases by 2d10, and it gains the same number of hit points. These benefits last for 24 hours.

Wow, sounds like a good time!