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    Nov 2011

    Default Giving Every Rogue Subclass a 6th-Level Feature

    Hey, you! Yes, you! Send me rogue subclasses!
    This is a project where I write a 6th-level feature for every rogue subclass. No really, every subclass. If you can think of a rogue subclass in, in homebrew, a 3rd-party book or wherever else, let me know and I'll give it a 6th-level feature.

    Okay, on to the real post.

    The 6th-Level Rogue Subclass Project
    Subclasses are one of my favorite parts of D&D 5e, but some of the choices WotC make with subclasses bug me. The rogue in particular has a giant gap between levels 3 and 9, which encompasses some of the most commonly-played level space. I think rogues deserve a 5th subclass feature at level 6, so I'm writing one for every subclass I can find.

    I'm going to start with all the 1st-party subclasses, then popular 3rd-party homebrew. If you have rogue subclasses that you think deserve a 6th-level slot, send them my way and I'll put them here.

    Why Rogues?
    I know that my view on rogues is shared with some folks on the internet, but it's definitely not shared with everyone. I'm sure at least one person will come away from this thread thinking that I've made rogues overpowered, so I want to lay out 3 reasons why I think this is a useful project. If you agree with them, please read on and give me your feedback! if not, well, take this thread with a little salt.
    Spoiler: Rationale
    Show

    1. Early Gaps Aren't Fun
    The Rogue has a massive 6-level gap between its first two subclass features. The isn't the largest gap between subclass features overall (I believe that goes to the cleric, with a nine-level gap), but it's the largest gap between first and second subclass features. The cadence of these particular features matters a lot, because they help distinguish a player with subclass X from a player with subclass Y. Subclass features are also fun because they're unique even across classes. Think about the mage hand shenanigans of the arcane trickster, the phantom's ghost walking, or the "holy crap you can do that at will???!" taunt from the swashbuckler. Subclass features are just damn fun.

    Frustratingly, the rogue's feature gap also coincides with the levels of D&D 5e that tend to see the most play. Taking a look at some of the more popular adventures & anthologies in the last few years:
    • Light of Xaryxis is for levels 5-8
    • Journeys through the Radiant Citadel is for levels 1-14
    • The Wild Beyond the Witchlight is for levels 1-8
    • Candlekeep Mysteries is for levels 1-16
    • Call of the Netherdeep is for levels 3-12
    • Rime of the Frostmaiden is for levels 1-12
    • Dungeons of Drakkenheim is for levels 1-13

    A lot of these adventures end just a few levels after the rogue's second subclass feature with some ending before the rogue even reaches it. Obviously not every campaign is going to end like that, but I think a lot of them do. Other classes get their cool toys earlier and can really grow into them, while the rogue player sits around hoping that the campaign can last just a few more levels...

    2. The Rogue's Fantasy is Damage
    At levels 5, 11, and 17, most classes get a "tier-up" feature. For casters, this is usually a new spell level (for example, look at just how much stronger the 3rd-level fireball is compared to the 2nd-level agnazzar's scorcher). Most martials pick up Extra Attack at level 5 and a powerful, combat-oriented feature at level 11 (fighters get another Extra Attack, rangers get a subclass feature, barbarians get Relentless Rage). But Rogues are different. At level 5 they get Uncanny Dodge, a defensive feature reaction sink, and at level 11 they get Reliable Talent, a feature that occasionally applies to combat (hiding being the main example) but is primarily useful outside of it.

    These features aren't bad per se. Uncanny Dodge is a great defensive tool, and Reliable Talent cuts the RNG in half for you which is fantastic in a game with bounded accuracy. But I don't think these features deliver on the character fantasy that a lot of rogue players want. While the rogue has some skill-intensive elements, its primary focus is on making powerful, singular attacks for heavy damage. Using Hide or Steady Aim for advantage to set up a Sneak Attack is the backbone of the rogue's combat strategy from its early levels, but that early focus gets diluted as you go into Tiers 2 and 3. At my table, players think of the rogue as the BIG DAMAGE class, and they come away disappointed as it becomes clear that the classes with Extra Attack are simply better at dealing that damage.

    I don't want to homogenize rogues within the sea of other extra attacking martials, but I do believe that rogues in Tier 2 and 3 focus too much on defensive and/or utility effects, to the detriment of the general rogue fantasy. With this new subclass level, we can add add combat features, and specifically offensive combat features, to every rogue. Level 6 is a great spot for this, because it's close to the Tier 2 breakpoint and it comes at a level that offers little to no combat power otherwise.

    3. Rogues Are Weak
    I know this is a controversial take in some areas of the internet, but I view the rogue as one of the weakest classes in the game. It offers fairly mediocre damage, its unique contribution can be imitated and sometimes exceeded by spells, and it has no resources to speak of. There are definitely folks out there who think the rogue deals too much damage (as the legions of "My DM nerfed sneak attack!" threads show us), and I also know folks who think it's good to be resourceless.

    I don't want to go too deep on this because you likely either agree with me here or you don't, but by and large my opinion lines up with CMCC's thoughts on the rogue. I want to use the extra subclass feature to make every rogue stronger, especially underperforming subclasses like the Thief and Assassin. If you think the rogue is already an S-tier class, almost every feature here is going to look wayyyy over the mark.


    Guiding Philosophies
    Given my thoughts about the rogue, I want some guidelines that help define the goals for these new features. These shouldn't just be throwaway features designed to fill in a hole on a class table; I want them to be meaningful and feel fun. Here are the priorities I landed on:
    1. Give offensive options: The rogue already gets defense at level 5 and a utility ability at level 11. I want to give the rogue more offensive combat tools.
    2. Increase power for optimal play: All of these features will be buffs, because the rogue needs buffs (IMO, of course!). But some subclasses need those buffs a lot more than others. The biggest driver of my frustrations with the rogue comes from playing optimal, close-to-the-wire games in parties where most folks are trying to build and play optimally. That means a rogue's default playstyle will be ranged combat, their allies will be rune knights more often than champsions, and their encounters will frequently be deadly. These changes should bring all of the subclasses up so that they can hold their own in parties where everyone else is picking strong build options.
    3. Augment existing identities: It would be easy to buff rogue damage by saying "all rogues get +[some number] damage on sneak attacks" and call it a day, but subclasses are fun because they are distinct. I want to respect that, and where possible to augment it. Features should play into the subclass's original strategies and themes, and appeal to the same core audience. Simple subclasses should get straightforward features, while complex subclasses can get open-ended ones.
    4. Make it plug-and-play: While it would be nice to rearrange some class features (looking at you, Phantom), this project be easy to integrate into an existing game. Avoid re-arranging combat features, don't mess with existing resource pools or combat potions, and try to keep the features short. This is especially relevant to rogues with resource systems, because the progression of those resources tends to be defined in a different place. For example, I want to avoid giving arcane tricksters more spell slots, or giving Phantoms more uses of their Wails from the Grave feature.

    Without further ado, let's get started! I'll post each feature alongside a quick explanation why I chose it.
    Wizard of the Coast
    Thief - Advantageous Critical
    Core / Player's Handbook
    At 6th level, when you make an attack that would benefit from Sneak Attack, that attack scores a critical hit on a roll of 17-20.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    This subclass is meant to be a roguey rogue's rogue with archetypal rogue abilities, but the subclass is agonizingly weak until level 17. The chunky enhanced crit range gives the thief a solid damage boost (roughly a 26% damage increase if you have advantage every turn) across all levels of play without changing the core tactics of the class.

    Arcane Trickster - Scroll Pilferer
    Player's Handbook
    At 6th level, you can use scrolls even if they are not meant for you. You can understand any scroll that you read, even if that scroll’s spell is not on your spell list. You can attempt to use a scroll to cast a spell that isn’t on your spell list by making an ability check using your Intelligence modifier plus your proficiency bonus. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a failed check, the spell disappears from the scroll with no other effect.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    The arcane trickster is one of the better rogue subclasses thanks to a decent number of spell slots and flexible choices. It gives players a wide range of ways to approach challenges, and I want to augment that while also playing up the "spellthief" theme of the subclass which comes out of the blue at level 17. This gives arcane tricksters a huge amount of flexibility at a pretty high risk, while making them the best at using random scrolls (aside from the 13th-level thief).

    Assassin - Reaping Speed
    Player's Handbook
    At 6th level, whenever you roll initiative, you can treat a d20 roll of 17 or lower as an 18. Additionally, on the first round of combat, you can treat any creature with an initiative result of 10 or less as surprised.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Another simple class with a simple feature. Assassins suffer from the initiative structure of 5e. If a creature rolls better than the assassin on initiative, it takes a turn and becomes un-surprised if it was surprised before. This means that an assassin can get the jump on somebody with some great sneaking / disguising / etc, but roll low on initiative, and now their whole feature is useless. To remedy this, the assassin never rolls low on initiative.

    Even after this fix, the assassin can still kinda suck. Infiltration Expertise and Imposter are very much subject to the DM's whims, so I think it's important to give the assassin a way to guarantee their critical hits when the DM doesn't let them use their cheeky disguise strategy.

    Mastermind - Guided Strike
    Xanathar's Guide to Everything
    At 6th level, when you use the Help action to aid an ally in attacking a creature, you identify a vulnerability in that target. If an ally makes an attack with advantage against that target and hits, you can use your reaction to roll half the number of Sneak Attack dice for your level (round up), and add the result to the attack's damage roll.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    The mastermind has a great core idea. It offers a supportive subclass in a field of subclasses that are usually selfish, and it allows players to be a smart, non-spellcasting character, which is rare in 5e. But the subclass itself isn't that impressive. Granting an ally advantage makes it harder for you to set up sneak attack, which hurts you more than most classes because so much of your damage is delivered through a single attack, while the fighter, barbarian, or even the scorching ray-wielding wizard will be making multiple attacks. To enhance the class's identity, I've given it a damage boost inspired by laserllama's Savant which I think plays pretty well.

    Inquisitive - Hobbling Shot
    Xanathar's Guide to Everything
    At 6th level, you have advantage on attack rolls you make against creatures affected by your insightful fighting feature.

    Additionally, you may use a bonus action to make your next attack a hobbling shot. The next time you deal Sneak Attack damage to a creature this round, you may apply an additional effect to your target:
    • Your target falls prone.
    • Your target’s speed is halved until the start of your next turn.
    • The target loses 1 reaction or 1 legendary action (your choice) until the start of your next turn. If they have no actions of that kind left, they instead lose 1 at the start of their next turn.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Similar to the Mastermind, the Inquisitive subclass is a cool, orthogonal take on the traditional rogue. But Insightful Fighting is worse at giving you Sneak Attack hits compared to hiding or using Steady Aim, aside from freeing up your bonus actions... but then what would you spend those bonus actions on, aside from hide and Steady Aim? This feature gives your first turn similar utility to hiding, and gives you a bonus action sink for subsequent turns. It pushes the Inquisitive in more of a controlling role, which is pushing the goal of this project a little, but I think it fits the Inquisitive well.

    Scout - Guerilla Combat
    Xanathar's Guide to Everything
    At 6th level, when you make a weapon attack on your turn, if you are at least 20 feet away from where you started your turn, you have advantage on the attack roll and you add your rogue level to the damage. If you are making a melee weapon attack, you can also reroll one of the dice used in that attack roll once.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Scouts are initially underwhelming. The class already comes with 4 expertise proficiencies, and the additional movement doesn't serve any purpose the way it might for a Swashbuckler. At times, it can be better for a scout rogue to use Steady Aim every turn, which makes the 9th-level ability feel reaaaal bad. This pushes the rogue scout to spend their movement running around, with an extra reward for melee combat because diving in & out of threat ranges can get dangerous.

    Swashbuckler - Dazzling Feint
    Xanathar's Guide to Everything
    At 6th level, you can feint to throw your enemy off balance. At the start of your turn, you can choose a creature and make a Charisma (Deception) check contested by that creature’s Wisdom (Insight) check. The creature must be able to hear you, and the two of you must share a language. If you succeed on the check, you have advantage on attack rolls you make against that creature until the start of your next turn, and that creature can’t take reactions in response to your attacks.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    For example, a Noble (MM p.345) could not use its Parry reaction to increase its AC in response to your attack roll, and an Ambitious Assassin (BMT p.45) could not use its Uncanny Dodge reaction to halve the damage it takes from you.

    The Swashbuckler is the first subclass where you should expect to use TWF, so the advantage is additionally effective here.

    Phantom - Grasping Spirits
    Tasha's Cauldron of Everything
    At 6th level, after you deal damage to a creature with your Wails from the Grave feature, dark spirits swirl around them, revealing their weaknesses. The next time you deal Sneak Attack damage to that target within 1 minute, roll d10s instead of d6s to determine the damage.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    This doubles down on the concept of spreading damage by encouraging a player to split their attention between two targets.

    Soulknife - Sharp Mind, Sharp Blade
    Tasha's Cauldron of Everything
    At 6th level, whenever you make an opportunity attack, you can manifest a psychic blade in a free hand and make the attack with that blade.

    Additionally, your psychic blades gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls. At 13th level, the bonus to attack and damage rolls increases to +2.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    The soulknife has decent damage and skill options, but has a couple frustration points, namely opportunity attacks for melee builds and magic item scaling. This is a straightforward fix to both of them. A "normal" rogue will probably get a +3 weapon and come slightly ahead of a soulknife, but I think the soulknife is close enough to strong that it doesn't need quite as much help.





    Ghostfire Gaming
    Smuggler - Magical Miscellany
    Sebastian Crowe's Guide to Drakkenheim
    At 6th level, in addition to adventuring gear, you carry magical, consumable gear on your person. You may expend a use of your Pack Rat feature to retrieve a potion of healing or a 1st-level spell scroll from the wizard list. You may retrieve items of these kinds a total of two times per long rest. As with the nonmagical objects obtained through this feature, these are functional, but visibly worthless junk.

    As you gain levels, you may also fetch more potent magical items a more limited number of times per rest, as shown in the Magical Miscellany table.

    Rogue Level Uses per Long Rest Wizard spell scroll level Alternative Item
    6th 2 1st potion of climbing, healing, or poison
    9th 1 2nd dust of appearance, disappearance, or sneezing and choking
    13th 1 3rd potion of resistance (any kind)
    17th 1 4th quaal’s feather token (any kind)
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Dungeon Dudes, the folks who wrote Drakkenheim, consider the rogue A-tier (in a ranking from S to D) so it's no surprise that the one rogue subclass they wrote for Drakkenheim is weak. Now the Pack Rat is a great feature to give an experienced player: it rewards system mastery, and gets rid of annoying limitations (like object interactions & carrying capacity) that inhibit the pack rat adventuring style in 5e. But beyond that, the subclass just all over the place. Blend Into the Crowd gives advantage on your ranged attacks at lv3, but Slip Past gives advantage on melee attacks at lv6, and Never Tell Me The Odds is for when you don't have advantage, which is just...???? Smuggled Spells at 17th level is very fun, but even then depends on the goodwill of your fellow casters or requires shelling out hundreds of gold to the casters in town.

    I want to lean into the improvisational, reactive elements of the subclass, and dial up the system mastery element of it really hard, so I've given the smuggler an even more massive toolkit than before. This also gives the Smuggler a way to fuel their own Smuggled Spells.

    Highway Rider - Noon’s Harsh Light
    Grim Hollow: The Player’s Guide
    At 6th level, you can enter a state of preternatural awareness. If you do not move and take no actions for an entire round, you gain advantage on Wisdom and Investigation checks and can’t be surprised. This state ends when you move or take an action other than making an ability check, or after you roll initiative.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    This is probably the only subclass that I'm avoiding giving a combat boost, because this subclass is nuts. It grants a relevant combat feature at every level, and they're all range from decent to ludicrous. This feature isn't an amazing fit for the cowboy theme, but I think it'll help when sighting things from far away, or looking for secret doors.

    Misfortune Bringer - Shatter the Nazar
    Grim Hollow: The Player’s Guide
    At 6th level, your dark magic clings tightly to your targets. Effects such as the remove curse spell that would prevent or undo your evil eye, your misfortunes, or spells you cast, do not work. Resources used for these effects are still expended, such as the spell slot used to cast remove curse, but they have no effect.

    Additionally, when deal Sneak Attack damage to a creature affected by your Evil Eye, you gain 1 temporary jinx point. This jinx point can be spent as normal, but you lose it at the end of your next turn. You can have up to 2 temporary jinx points this way.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    The name here comes from nazar amulets, which supposedly break when they protect you from a powerful evil eye. A 6th-level misfortune bringer is so powerful that all when they curse you, all your nazars will break and you will still be cursed.

    The misfortune bringer is a fun concept, but it's harshly limited by its number of known misfortunes early, and its basically always low on jinx points. This creates a problem similar to the Inquisitive rogue, where it's sometimes wrong to use your cool Evil Eye feature even though it lets you sneak attack, because hiding or using steady aim is more likely to kill the person you'd be Evil Eye'ing, especially since you'll be paying with just 4 points per rest for most of your career. This feature encourages going all-in on your Evil Eye by giving you more uses of your cool toys. The duration lets you use every 1-point jinx for free, but you usually won't get any free 2- point jinxes because of the timing requirements.





    Mage Hand Press
    Arachnoid Stalker - Web Shot
    Valda's Spire of Secrets
    At 6th level, you can quickly use webbing to throw your foes around or lock them down. As a bonus action, you can throw a glob of webbing at up to two creatures within 30 feet of you. Make a ranged weapon attack against each. On a hit, the next attack made against that creature before the start of your next turn has advantage. Additionally, you may pull a target that you hit 10 feet towards you, or reduce its speed to 10 feet until the start of your next turn.
    Spoiler: Noes
    Show
    The subclasses in Valda's are very... hodgepodgey. They usually start with a pretty interesting core pitch (like webslinging in this case, or being a sneak-attacking fighter as an enforcer), but eventually they get some weird T2 or T3 class feature that feels at odds with the strategy they were designed for in T1. This subclass starts off as a sneaky spidery subclass with a little bonus damage, and at level 13 WHAM now it throws around web at will and becomes a crazy controller.

    I've tried to give the class some synergy with both its T1/T2 sneak attacking, and its eventual T3+ web-heavy playstyle. You can spread your web attacks across a couple creatures and opportunistically sneak attack whoever gets hit, or you can throw down a web in the middle of the fight and start yanking people into it.

    Enforcer - Bully
    Valda's Spire of Secrets
    At 6th level, you can make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, and you can make sneak attacks with your unarmed strike.

    Additionally, after you miss a melee weapon attack against a creature, you can immediately attempt to shove that creature (no action required).
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Yay, a subclass fort melee rogues! It's... not great. This starts off as a "make sneak attacks with a greatsword" class, and at level 9 turns into a weird hodgepodge-y, wish.com fighter with shoves and some extra attacks? I'm not sure what to make of it, or how to help it scale, because it's just all over the place.

    My goal here is to give you an extra opportunity to proc sneak attack if you're set up from an external source, and to offer more ways to push enemies, since that seems like the most unique aspect of the class. If you miss an attack on an enemy, you can try to shove them prone in order to get advantage for a bonus action sneak attack... it's still not setting you up great, though. I'm not confident in this.

    Grifter - Double Trouble
    Valda's Spire of Secrets
    At 6th level, as an action, you can make a melee weapon attack with advantage against 2 creatures within 5 feet of you. You can deal Sneak Attack damage to both of those creatures if you hit them, provided you have not dealt Sneak Attack previously this turn.

    At 13th level, you have advantage on these attack rolls.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Another melee subclass! This one is supposed to be about mobility and fighting enemies in pairs, which is a very dangerous strategy, and deserves a massive payoff that the subclass frankly doesn't provide. This feature hopefully cranks the damage way up to make the risk worth the reward. It gets an additional boost at 13th level, because the 13th-level feature is a sad ribbon.

    Shadow Master - The Clawing Dark
    Valda's Spire of Secrets
    At 6th level, you have advantage on attack rolls against creatures in the same space as your shadow. When a creature starts its turn in the same space as your shadow, its movement speed is halved and it has disadvantage on attack rolls against your shadow until the start of its next turn.

    Additionally, when a creature you can see destroys your shadow, you may use your reaction to roll half the number of Sneak Attack dice for your level (round up), and deal the creature that much necrotic damage.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Despite the mechanical differences, this is a very similar class to The Shadow from Steinhardt's. You look for dark spots, make sneak attacks at ranged, and at higher levels you can inflict control effects. With my change, they're unfortunately even more similar, both being capable of casting darkness at-will. But while Steinhardt's Shadow felt like a cohesive unit missing a single peace, the Valda's Shadow Master feels all over the place. They get magical darkness at level 9, but can only cast it once. They don't get to use their shadow offensively until level 13. And they get an ability designed for melee combat at level 17 after spending most of their career shooting a crossbow... any of these abilities could have been interesting if the designers zoomed in on them, but when they're all hodgepodged together, the class feels disappointing.

    This feature is meant to give your shadow some earlier offense, and hopefully synergize with both Gloaming Black and Shadow Puppet's defensive option.

    Temporal Trickster - Twist the Time Knife
    Valda's Spire of Secrets
    At 6th level, you can twist time to strike back against your foes. After a creature you can see attacks you but before damage is dealt, you can use your reaction to attack that creature. You can use your Sneak Attack on this attack even if you don't have advantage on the attack roll, but not if you have disadvantage on it. If the target falls to 0 HP, its own attack retroactively fails, as though it were never made. You can make this attack even if the creature's attack would miss.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Probably my favorite class of the bunch in this book, I think this is a great use of Valda's new time-themed spells, and a good example of how to use a few spells to make a really compelling character concept. The class is already meant to use Hide to pull off sneak attacks, and its spells are pretty strong so I don't want to add more resources. This feature is my attempt at pushing the class's playstyle even further, giving you some offense even when you're throwing around spells like action and haste, as long as you're willing to put yourself in danger. Incentivizing facetanking here should also give a smart player more opportunities to use instant replay to waste a creature's turn.

    Titan Slayer - Colossus Climber
    Valda's Spire of Secrets
    At 6th level, you can climb atop larger creatures with ease. As an action or bonus action, you can attempt to grapple a creature. You may use Dexterity (Acrobatics) for this grapple check, and you have advantage on your roll. If you succeed, you climb on top of the creature, riding it. While a creature is grappled this way:
    • Its speed is halved instead of set to 0.
    • It has disadvantage on attack rolls against you, and you have advantage on attack rolls against it.
    • You move with the creature, and cannot move on your own.
    • At the start of each of your turns, you can force the creature to move up to 10 feet in any direction allowed by its speed.

    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Easily my most despised of the Valda's subclasses, this is a class where all but one feature do not work against creatures of your size. It's possible to get into a fight where a Titan Slayer has z e r o subclass features to use, no matter what their level is. What happens if the DM wants to run a fey campaign where you fight sprites and pixies? Why did we write a subclass if the first piece of GM advice you offer involves banning all medium races from playing it? Why does a class that sells itself with a pic of a halfling fighting giant have immunity to fear, when the only giant that applied fear in 2022 was from Guilds of Goddamn Ravnica???? If it were up to me, this subclass would be deleted from the book.

    I've tried to give the class a strong feature that encourages melee combat and fits the theme of a small person fighting a big person, but isn't restrictive. Go ahead, grapple that 3-foot tall kobold if you want. At least you'll get to play with your cool toys.




    MonkeyDM
    Blade of Radiance - Steel Resolve
    Steinhardt's Guide to the Eldritch Hunt
    At 6th level, when the dark closes in tightly, you can draw upon your will and your faith in the Church to persevere. As a bonus action, you regain all of your expended Divine points.
    Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    This is a pretty crazy subclass already. Level 1 gives you a reactive sanctuary-style effect, level 9 lets you restrain creatures (!!), level 13 gives you multiple useful low-level spells that you can cast at will, and the class's Divine Points recharge when you kill a aberration, beast, fiend, or undead, which you might as well read as "every monster" if you're playing in Steinhardt's setting. To be fair, the subclass needs to be pretty strong, because it's both MAD and melee-only (a dangerous combination), but even then I think it's probably one of the strongest rogue subclasses.

    Instead of giving the subclass more strengths, this feature is meant to shore up its weaknesses. If you have a bad session where you're not getting any kills, you can get a few more Divine Points, which should let you push forward just a little more to get that kill and start snowballing the fight as the Church intended.

    Shadow - Light-Eater
    Steinhardt's Guide to the Eldritch Hunt
    At 6th level, you can call upon the shadows to spread darkness on your behalf, swallowing torches and deepening shadows. You can cast the darkness spell at will, requiring no components, as an action or bonus action.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    The Shadow has a great premise: you are a sniper with a gun made out of shadow magic, and you fight by quickly moving between areas of darkness where you can set up your sniper rifle. The pitch is great, and the damage seems great. However, the subclass is frequently at the whims of the battlemap. Take the Storm Sanctuary from Lairs of Etharis, where the ilharans are encountered in a mostly-open area near a fire while the ithjars in a cramped corridor. Neither offers a good opportunity to hide, let alone a dark place to sit still and fire your sniper round after round.

    This feature allows the Shadow to create their own lightless zones so they can improvise a hiding spot to use Shadow Movement. It's still worse than finding an existing dark place to hide in, but that's intentional. This is meant as insurance when a fight doesn't favor you, it's not free power.

    Unlike a lot of 5e products where tradition dictates that we gate magic behind rests, Steinhardt's looooves its at-will magic. I'm a huge fan of giving characters tools like these over giving players big spell lists & limited slots, because my player gets to use their power freely, while I (as a DM) can easily build challenges around that player's capabilities. I've tried to follow tradition and avoid giving at-will spells in other subclasses, but if you're playing with Steinhardt's content anyways, all bets are off.





    Kobold Press
    Cat Burglar - Dance in the Fray
    Tome of Heroes
    At 6th level, you move with an uncanny agility, avoiding attacks of every kind and finding vulnerabilities in your foes’ guards despite their best efforts. When you disengage, you can move through the space of hostile creatures for the rest of the turn.

    Additionally, when you enter a creature’s space, you have advantage on the first attack you make against that creature this turn, and that creature has disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes against you before the start of your next turn.

    This feature improves when you gain certain levels. At 9th level, that creature has disadvantage on all attack rolls against you. At 13th level, that creature can’t use reactions or legendary actions on a turn when you enter their space. At 17th level, you roll d10s instead of d6s to determine damage if you use Sneak Attack against that creature this turn.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Kobold Press has a pattern of writing subclasses composed almost entirely out of ribbon features. You start at level 3 by getting advantage on saves against traps and triggered spells, and you end at level 17 by ignoring traps and triggered spells... and that's about the coolest thing this class can do. No extra tools for dealing with run-of-the-mill guards at a door, no way into magical vaults, no plan to handle walls of force at high level... wizard is a better cat burglar!

    This subclass also offers stone nothing for combat. I'd love to augment this class's identity somehow, but there's nothing here to augment! I've picked an identity that feels appropriate (melee boss-killer) and written a feature with built-in scaling so this class is worth taking when the heist plan goes awry.

    Dawn Blade - Luminous Target
    Tome of Heroes
    At 6th level, when you hit a creature with your Radiant Beam, it is surrounded by a subtle luminescence. Until the end of your next turn, the creature radiates dim light out to 10 feet and can’t benefit from being invisible. If you attack a creature while radiating light, you can reroll one of the dice used in that attack roll once.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Quick note: the name (and art) are a trick, this is a ranged subclass.

    Dawn Blade has a pretty cool identity, and it's by far my favorite of Tome of Heroes. Much like the Phantom, it rewards you for spreading the love between enemies, but it also encourages focusing on low-HP targets over beefy ones, which is a rarity among rogue subclasses. This feature is meant to push the target-swapping identity more, so you tag your foe with a low-damage Beam on turn 1 and virtually guarantee a hit on turn 2.

    Sapper - Quick Tricks
    Tome of Heroes
    At 6th level, you’ve developed a system that allows you to quickly combine rope, spikes, and reagents on the fly in order to build faster, deadlier tools in combat. Your Combat Engineer features improve.
    • Alchemical Bomb. The bonus damage from your bombs is also dealt to creatures of any type, instead of just constructs.
    • Jury Rig Fortification. Any fortification that you could previously build with this feature in 1 minute, you can now build with 1 action. Fortifications that take longer to build have their time reduced to one-tenth.
    • Hastily Trap an Area. Any trap you could build in 1 minute, you can now build with 1 action or 1 bonus action. Traps that take longer to build have their time reduced to one-tenth.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    The Sapper starts off really cool, and then offers essentially a series of ribbon features from level 9 onwards. Unfortunately, the Sapper's level 3 identity is almost a full page of text and a bunch of lookups (the trap rules especially), so augmenting the identity in a clean way doesn't seem possible, and the complexity here is already massive so I don't want to write something even more complicated.

    I'm making Alchemical Bomb their backup feature by nixing the construct-only rule, so they get level-appropriate damage with a focus on AOE. As levels go up, fortifications and traps tend to fall off in usefulness, so I'm also making them more usable in combat & combat prep.

    Smuggler - Mystical Medley
    Tome of Heroes
    At 6th level, you carry magical, consumable gear on your person. As an object interaction, you may retrieve a potion of healing or a 1st-level spell scroll from the wizard list. You may retrieve items of these kinds a total of two times per long rest. Though functional, these items are visibly worthless junk. As you gain levels, you may also fetch more potent magical items a more limited number of times per rest, as shown in the Mystical Medley table.

    Rogue Level Uses per Long Rest Wizard spell scroll level Alternative Item
    6th 2 1st potion of climbing, healing, or poison
    9th 1 2nd dust of appearance, disappearance, or sneezing and choking
    13th 1 3rd potion of resistance (any kind)
    17th 1 4th quaal’s feather token (any kind)
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    What a coincidence. Sebastian Crowe's Guide to Drakkenheim has a rogue subclass called Smuggler with weak features after level 3, and Tome of Heroes also has a rogue subclass called the Smuggler with weak features after level 3! Same flavor, same problem, same solution!

    Soulspy - Flickering Light
    Tome of Heroes
    At 6th level, when the light of your Divine Symbol shifts, so too does your power.

    When you restore the light of your Divine Symbol, increase radiant damage dealt by attacks with your Divine Symbol by 1d8 this turn. When you deal radiant damage this turn, your target must make a Constitution saving throw or have disadvantage on attack rolls against you until the start of your next turn.

    When you extinguish the light of your Divine Symbol, increase necrotic damage dealt by attacks with your Divine Symbol by 1d8. If you deal necrotic damage this turn, your target must make a Wisdom saving throw or use its reaction to move 10 feet in a direction of your choice. This movement provokes opportunity attacks.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    The soulspy has a toooooooon of features, but many of those features are describing ribbons. The Divine Symbol feature in particular has lots of rules governing things that are mostly aesthetic. Since the class already has ways to integrate its magic with Sneak Attack, and the cleric casting gives it some scaling, I'm focusing on making the class more interesting. The light manipulation and existing radiant/necrotic dichotomy seem like a fun way to push the class's identity, and encourage using your Divine Symbol to attack instead of just firing with a crossbow.

    Underfoot - Tunneller
    Tome of Heroes
    At 6th level, your burrow speed increases to 40 feet, and you can now burrow through ice and mud. Additionally, you gain tremorsense out to 20 feet.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    I'm not sure what to make of this class. It's race-locked which is already crazy to me (why restrict a subclass to a burrowing race when you could just give burrowing as a class feature? If the power budget is small enough to put on a race, it's small enough to offer at level 3!). It gives 1/2 casting which should offer some scaling, but the spells known are restricted to divination and transmutation spells off the druid list, which severely limits the subclass's ability to use magic in combat (originally this was published in Deep Magic where you could pick up the spell anticipate weakness, a bA cantrip that gives advantage on attack rolls, but the later printing in Tome of Heroes doesn't offer that.) It's also meant to be a melee combatant with an empowered shillelagh, but doesn't offer a comparable reward for that until level 9. The Erina race only handles the burrow speed, but even that is restricted to burrowing through earth and sand, so if you play Rime of the Frostmaiden or you go somewhere muddy, uh... sorry, no high-level class features for you?

    This feature expands burrow so Underfoot Rogues can be useful in more places, and provides Tremorsense so they can take advantage of hit & run strategies underground. KP doesn't specify this as far as I can tell, but you should require that Erina leave a tunnel when they burrow, so that creatures can chase them or shoot at them.

    Duelist - Practiced Footwork
    Midgard Heroes Handbook
    At 6th level, while you are only wielding light weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to AC, and you can deal Sneak Attack if you hit a creature with a weapon attack from a light weapon, even if you don’t have advantage on the attack roll or it isn't within 5 feet of an allied creature, but not if you have disadvantage.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    The duelist is a battlemaster, except you must be:
    • A rogue (duh)
    • in melee
    • without a shield
    • with only light weapons (special allowance for the rapier)
    • and your maneuvers don't deal bonus damage,
    • but you get advantage on initiative checks
    There's more to it than that (the class gets more defensive reactions, and a crazy offensive attack that applies Save vs Incapacitated, which slants the class towards more of an offbrand monk playstyle). I don't want to add more resources given how powerful some of these maneuvers are, so instead I'm improving the baseline defenses of the class and giving it a way to reliably use Sneak Attack. No advantage on the roll, because I expect this class to TWF and stick around looking for opportunity attacks.

    Fixer - An Eye for Weakness
    Midgard Heroes Handbook
    At 6th level, you can identify characteristics in your foes that allow you to make devastating attacks. At the start of your turn, choose a creature that you can see within 60 feet of you, and roll an Intelligence check (adding your Proficiency Bonus from Street Smart) against a DC of 10 + the creature’s Challenge Rating. If you succeed, the next time you deal Sneak Attack damage to that creature before the start of your next turn, add twice your rogue level to the damage.

    At 17th level, add four times your rogue level to your Sneak Attack damage instead.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Another smuggling-themed class without much combat value, so we have to invent something. This subclass comes with a lot ribbon features related to identifying people that you can talk to in order to... buy stuff, I guess. This feature is meant to play with that, giving you an inconsistent source (since it scales with CR) of bonus damage.

    I know some DMs just make up monsters without considering their challenge rating, and don't want to reverse-engineer CR on the fly. If that's something you do, try eyeballing CR with these guidelines:
    • If it's a minion, or a monster that shows up in droves, pick a CR of the rogue's level - 5.
    • If it's a small fry, threatening but ultimately easy to beat down by just 1-2 party members, pick a CR of the rogue's level - 2.
    • If it seems scary for just 1-2 people, but the party could handle one capably, pick a CR equal to the rogue's level.
    • If it's dangerous, and can start wrecking havoc if left unchecked for just a turn or two, pick a CR of the rogue's level + 2.
    • If it's going to squish the party into a fine paste, pick a CR of the rogue's level + 5.

    Whisper - Shadow Well
    Midgard Heroes Handbook
    At 6th level, you can draw upon the powers of darkness to fuel yourself. When you deal Sneak Attack damage to a creature, or after sitting motionless in total darkness for 1 minute, you may regain an expended use of one of your Whisper features without needing to finish a rest.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    So many publishers write shadow-themed rogue subclasses, I'm surprise WotC hasn't taken a stab at it.

    The Whisper gets a smattering of cool toys, but none of them are impactful enough to warrant how infrequently the class gets them. For example, at level 13 you essentially get invisibility once per short rest, but at that point your Arcane Trickster buddy can cast it seven times per long rest, assuming they want to spend the slot on that instead of their other 8 known spells. This cranks up the Whisper's access to their tools, practically guaranteeing they'll get used in every combat, while also encouraging them to focus on low-AC targets. The 1-minute recharge gives you a free way to charge out of combat without resting, so you don't feel like you have to carry around a bag of rats.





    DM's Guild
    Dark Petitioner - The Dark Faith’s Strength
    Chronicles of Eberron
    At 6th level you gain proficiency in Constitution saving throws.

    Additionally, you may concentrate on two different spells at once if one of them is a cantrip.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Compared to the arcane trickster, this is such a weird trap of a subclass. Pragmatic Petitioner lets you cast any dark petitioner subclass as a bonus action when you hit a creature with an attack, but the only combat cantrip on the dark petitioner's list is true strike... what am I gonna do, cast dancing lights on the ogre I'm stabbing? Come on, Mr. Baker.

    Now to be fair, the cleric spell list has some great options, but a lot of them are concentration buffs, which means even true strike is bad here! As far as I can tell, the optimal playstyle here appears to involve casting exactly one buff spell on yourself and never using any of your other features until level 13, which is just so incredibly lame. This level 6 feature is meant to open up your true strike bonus action combo while also allowing you to concentrate on a usefl cleric spell. It's also phrased such that you can concentrate on any cantrips you pick up elsewhere. It's inconsistent wording with Pragmatic Petitioner, but it opens up the build space in a cool way, and this is 3rd-party splat material anyways so my threshold for complexity is higher.
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2024-03-18 at 03:24 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Rogue Sub 6 Project: A 6th-level feature for every rogue subclass

    KibblesTasty
    I'm not a member of KT's Patreon, so no exclusive subclasses. Still got quite a few on the Compiled Homebrew List.

    Assassin (Revised) - Honed Reflexes
    Compiled Homebrew List
    At 6th level, you add your Proficiency Bonus to your initiative rolls.

    Additionally, you roll d8s instead of d6s to determine the damage dealt by your Sneak Attack. If the Sneak Attack was made as a melee weapon attack, roll d10s instead.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    KT revises the assassin's hacky initiative mechanic so it doesn't depend on going first all the time (though going first is still valuable). Without needing to patch a massive rules gap, I've elected for a straightforward buff.

    KT's likes to bundle multiple features under single headings, so I'm trying to imitate that a bit with these additional features. Most of these features have at least 2 lines of text, whether it's a bonus effect or a note about scaling.

    Divine Hand - Burn in Divine Fire
    Compiled Homebrew List
    At 6th level, when you deal radiant damage with a spell or your Sneak Attack, roll 1d6 and add the value to the damage dealt.

    This additional damage increases to 2d6 at 13th level.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Another 1/2 caster with cleric spells (that's 3 so far, I believe). There's a decent bit of scaling already inherent in the class, and Hide/Steady Aim is already part of the usual combat pattern, so I'm just adding a little extra damage to the holy water sneak attack, since that's the most interesting.

    Enforcer - Close Quarters Combatant
    Compiled Homebrew List
    At 6th level, while you are grappling a creature, you have advantage on attack rolls against it, and it has disadvantage on attack rolls against you.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    This is a melee, grapple-focused Strength rogue that makes sneak attacks with one hand (very narrow!). Even the famous homebrewers don't seem to appreciate how dangerous it is to be in melee range, so I'm opting for a significant buff, outright guaranteeing Sneak Attack damage when in a grapple while protecting you from whoever you're wrestling.

    Gadgeteer - Wild Chain
    Compiled Homebrew List
    At 6th level, your grappling hook’s range increases to 30 feet, and you can use Dexterity instead of Strength on grappling checks you make with it.

    You also gain a new way to use your grappling hook. As a bonus action, you can make a contested Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Athletics) check against a Large or smaller creature within 30 feet of you. If you succeed, you move that creature up to 10 feet in any direction.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    The gadgeteer is fun, they throw bombs instead of making normal sneak attacks and they have a grappling hook for maneuvering around the map. Instead of messing with their raw damage, I want to give them a way to reliably hit multiple targets. The new grappling hook use gives them a way to drag people round so they can hopefully hit 2 targets at a time with their bombs.

    Surgeon - Quick Kit
    Compiled Homebrew List
    At 6th level, as part of a long rest, you can create a number of potions of healing equal to your Intelligence modifier. Only you can use these potions (though you can still administer them to other creatures), and they last until you begin another long rest.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    The simplest of the KT rogue features. The availability of potions of healing can vary a lot between campaigns: sometimes their plentiful, sometimes they're available but a big drain on your finances, sometimes they're totally missing so you're left with just a healing kit. This feature should give a baseline number of potion uses so you can patch allies up easily.

    If you're bothered by this not being surgically-related despite the name being "surgeon", you share my annoyance. Unfortunately most of the class is just vaguely doctor-themed (the big exception being the 17th-level feature). I'd prefer to have a feature that feels surgical, but if the subclass already doesn't care that much... meh.



    Griffon's Saddlebag
    Runetagger - Paint the Wind
    Griffon's Saddlebag, Book 1
    As a bonus action, you can quickly paint a mystical mark on your armor that allows you to move with greater freedom. This mark lasts for 1 minute, and you can only be affected by one at a time. While under the effects of this mark, you gain the following benefits:
    • Your speed increases by 10 feet.
    • You can use melee weapon attacks to make Sneak Attacks against any creature, even if you don’t have advantage on the attack, but not if you have disadvantage.
    • When you would spend a rune point, you may end this effect early instead of spending that point.
    At 13th level, the effects of this rune improve:
    • Once during each of your turns, when you make a melee weapon attack roll, you can reroll one of the dice once.
    • When a creature makes an opportunity attack against you, add your Wisdom modifier to your AC for that attack.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    This feature is very clunky. Mea culpa, please hear me out.

    First, this is a melee class, with a TWF leaning because runetagging requires hitting with an attack. The runes have limited uses (4/SR) and force our melee rogues to choose one between protecting themselves (Cryos rune), getting future sneak attacks (Locus), and helping the team (Hexxus). I see a good tension here, but with the melee rogue already in dire need of help, the massive resource squeeze forces a rogue to choose between a suicidal playstyle where you get to use your fun toys, or a boring and safe playstyle that spams Locus with the occasional Cryos. Later class features also depend on these rune points, or refund them under very narrow scenarios, squeezing the runetagger further.

    I don't want to use give the rogue more rune points, because I think the core problem here is that the rogue is choosing 1 out of 3 important things (defense, damage, control) when they should be choosing 2 out of 3. This feature is meant to open up those options:
    • Additional speed makes an in-and-out playstyle (using Cunning Action to disengage) more viable. On these turns, you can safely use Hexxus or Locus.
    • Automatic sneak attacks allow you to attack a target even if an ally isn't near (using TWF to increase the chance of a hit or try to tag a second creature). On these turns, you can safely use Cryos or Hexxus.
    • You can trade action economy (the bonus action) for rune point economy (free rune tag), but you lose your speed boost and your free sneak attack trigger. This is useful with any rune, but mostly can be used to encourage Cryos or Locus.
    The 13th-level feature of this class offers one rune point back once you're out, which is weak on its own but extra bad with the free point from this feature, so I also added an upgrade that focuses on accuracy.

    Grim Surgeon - Pay Blood, Sow Blood
    Griffon's Saddlebag, Book 2
    At 6th level, you can use your own life essence to fuel your attacks. The first time you make a weapon attack on your turn, you may choose to pay a blood tithe, dealing yourself 1d4 necrotic damage to gain advantage on that attack. This damage ignores resistance and immunity. If that attack hits, it deals an additional 3d4 damage.

    As you gain levels in rogue, you can choose to pay greater blood tithes for greater rewards. At 9th level, you can increase the die size for both instances of damage to a d6 (1d6, 3d6). At 13th level you can increase the size to a d8 (1d8, 3d8). At 17th level, you can increase the size to a d10 (1d10, 3d10).
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    This subclass starts good, but scales very poorly. Medic at level 3 gives essentially a free healing word on each party member which is great at low levels, and Toxic Shock at level 9 offers some reasonable control, albeit a little late, as monsters are making 3+ attack multiattacks regularly. Everything else is frankly disappointing: the temp HP from Transfusion quickly falls as you gain levels, changing from an occasionally-useful shield to basically a ribbon while never losing its frustrating type restrictions. Field Surgeon at level 9 offers a nice chunk of healing, but locks it behind a short rest when people are already using hit dice, and Bloodbound at level 17 is usable only 1/LR when any wizard can throw around dominate person a dozen times a day, requires Con instead of Wis, and is naturally only usable on humanoids and beasts. Bleh.

    Apparently there was a time when this class had a damage bonus at level 13. I'm kind of glad that was removed, because it leaves a big design hole that I can fill with this feature. The intention with the die scaling is that the grim surgeon can choose which die to pay with first (d4, d6, d8, d10) and take that much necrotic damage. This gives them advantage, and (if they hit) deals 3x that much as they took (3d4, 3d6, 3d8, 3d10) on a hit. This damage cost makes Transfusion much more useful, and binds the class to Wisdom more.


    Homebrew
    Chemister - Flaskmaster
    Homebrew from Just to Browse
    At 6th level, you become better at preparing and using your personal concoctions:
    • Alchemist's Fire. Creature's burning from your alchemist's fire have disadvantage on ability checks. Additionally, you may change the damage type of your Sneak Attack damage to fire damage when you make a Sneak Attack with alchemist's fire.
    • Acid Vial. Just before you throw a vial, you may make a small chemical alternation to change a vial's damage type to poison or necrotic damage. Additionally, you may change the damage type of your Sneak Attack damage to match the type of the vial when you make a Sneak Attack with it.
    • Basic Poison. A creature that fails its save against your basic poison is Poisoned for 1 minute. A creature can attempt another saving throw against the poison at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.
    • Oil Flask. The damage that oil deals when ignited increases to 2 plus half your rogue level (round down).

    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    The chemister is a combo of two concepts that are both pretty expensive (in terms of text space & mindshare). (1) a rogue-meets-alchemist hybrid class with bombs and weird chemistry, and (2) a way to play a "flask rogue" in 5e. I probably should have gone harder on (1), but them's the breaks.

    One of the problems with "flask rogue" style play is that flasks are terrible weapons. You can't use them to sneak attack, you can't be proficient in them, they're expensive, their damage types (fire & acid) are pretty commonly resisted in T2+, and you miss out on magic weapon bonuses that would otherwise be given to a rogue with a shortbow, crossbow, rapier, etc. The first three of those problems are handled by the class, but the latter two were left unaddressed in the class as I desperately attempted to bridge the class's alchemist-ness with its flask-ness. Now that I have room for a new feature, I'm giving it to the flask rogue.


    The Drowned - Quiet Depths
    Homebrew from Just to Browse
    At 6th level, you regain all of your expended tithes when you finish a short or long rest.
    Spoiler: Notes
    Show
    Since Vicious Current and the later Drag Down offer some strong damage, I don't think adding more damage to it is helpful. I'd rather give it more chances to use its tithe effects.
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2024-03-26 at 11:49 AM.
    All work I do is CC-BY-SA. Copy it wherever you want as long as you credit me.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Giving Every Rogue Subclass a 6th-Level Feature

    I think that I mosly agree with your reasoning. Rogues do have a big gap (and that sucks) and I do think that they are a bit underpowered and I do think another subclass ability would help fix this.

    I do have a couple of additional observations though - a number of which I have observed with monks as well. Firstly magic items matter. A +1 sword will add to attack and damage on two attacks for a ranger or a paladin, twice the benefit for the single attacking rogue. Even the +1 to hit is slightly less good as you are attacking with advantage in absolute terms. Martial characters that can use any weapons found as proficient with all of them, that can use any armour, can use shields - they will discover on average better loot simply because whatever is found, they can use. In a game without magic items, rogues are a little better.

    Secondly, feats. Great weapon mastery, polearm mastery + sentinal, Sharpshooter... the feat support for martials is superb. Most of which doesn't really work for rogues. The feat support for rapiers is just not the same as for halberds. Even seemingly good options such as sharpshooter are less good for rogues (more damage lost on a miss). Crossbow expert is still useful though. If you are not playing with the Feats optional rules then the gap closes. This isn't to say that rogues are terrible for feats or there are not good ones (sentinel is great, some racial feats are still pretty good).

    Thirdly, it depends on the campaign style. If your typical encounter is facing off against d3+1 giants in an empty room the rogue sucks. Big buckets of HP with lowish AC lets Big Damage Martials shine with all their -5/+10 feats and the challenge is just dealing that damage. Throw in a wizard at the back (so mobility and ability to select a target is good), move to enemies with fewer HP and better saves so casters have a slightly reduced impact. Have mobile enemies that need rogue speed to close with. Have the fight take place with a room full of traps to avoid. illusions to be decived by, things to spot, and dynamic surroundings to interact with and the rogue is awesome.

    Trying to fix the rogue is one thing. Trying to fix the rogue in such a way that it isn't overpowered in the types of campaign the rogue is at its best at, is tougher.


    Still, some toughts:

    Thief - Advantageous Critical: Ok, I don't like this. It steps on the champions toes and for the majority of the game will give something better than their signature ability. TH champion is not sufficiently overpowered that it can afford for this to happen. Also, this doesn't scream "thief" to me.

    Arcane Trickster - Scroll Pilferer: I like it. Of course this still required DM to give out scrolls to make it work. It sends a signal that they should though. I might even add an abiliy to craft a scroll of a spell they have been subjected to so it comes up more often.

    Assassin - Reaping Speed: I am very worried about the power level here. That and the fun level. Assassins in practice could use a boost and they don't get to assassinate that often but that is really the only thing causing them to be constrained. Wih this, they will become the dominant martial and will often fuctionally end fights before anyone else gets a turn, which isn't fun for them. It would suck to have a PC in a game where you dont get tofigt the most fun, most dramatic and most powerful enemies because they are already dead by the time you take a turn (or close enough to dead it makes little difference).

    Mastermind - Guided Strike: Superb. Brings in the thematic team play. It scales well and helps everyone have a fun time. Just what the doctor ordered.

    Inquisitive - Hobbling Shot: not sure. Advantage is good. That bit works. The hobbling shot thing doesn't match how the theme plays in my head. Also, that last ability is pretty nuts - hitting a big bad, sealing their reaction, a legendary action and their bonus action on their turn on a hit? That's crazy. Likewise knocking an enemy prone with no check, no save. I think this one might bneed to be revisited.

    Scout - Guerilla Combat: I think the motivation is sound. Not so sure about the execution. If you want an incentive to melee, this isn't it. IMagine an encounter with one monster (or where each othr has been killed). How big does the monster need to be for you to a) have been meleeing it last turn, b) move so you ae 20ft+ away from where you started the turn, and c) still be able to melee it this turn. I wonder if you could instead maybe add a melee counterattack to uncanny dodge or something? An incentive to close with an enemy and tank them? Not sure.

    Swashbuckler - Dazzling Feint: With decent charisma and expertise you shouln't be failing this check often. Its a powerful ability. The swashbuckler is one of the more powerful rogues, so I don't see this as needing to be tha strong. Its also worth making sure its not just a better version of a core abiliy from another subclass that gives advantage.

    Phantom - Grasping Spirits: This is themaic. Its scary and would actually tip me into wanting to play the subclass. A great option.

    Soulknife - Sharp Mind, Sharp Blade: looks really good. Its simple, but enough of a buff to make the class attractive.



  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Giving Every Rogue Subclass a 6th-Level Feature

    Appreciate the thoughts, MrStabby. I wanted to respond to your notes on rogues, gotta make more time to think about your individual comments later.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    Firstly [...] In a game without magic items, rogues are a little better.

    Secondly, feats. [...]

    Thirdly, it depends on the campaign style. [...]

    Trying to fix the rogue is one thing. Trying to fix the rogue in such a way that it isn't overpowered in the types of campaign the rogue is at its best at, is tougher.
    Before I posted, I was paralyzing myself thinking about this problem. Addending your thoughts on campaign style, I think a rogue can also be stronger in exploration scenarios, or any scenario structure where different skills feature significantly, e.g. Alexandrian's overland exploration rules make Survival more useful, which in turn make expertise more valuable. Rogues can also be more useful if you're using a "safe haven" resting structure, which seems to be gaining popularity nowadays.

    These scenarios are also a spectrum. For example, my outlook on encounters is most similar to the games I've seen LudicSavant play, or runs in CMCC's Gauntlet: varied combats, messy terrain, and really tough fights that reward strong builds. Encounters are meant to push PCs as hard as they can while leaving them on a tight clock so they have to be smart with resources, which you would think is the best place for a rogue. But in my last campaign where I used a variant on "gritty" resting and roughly half my fights involved fragile backliners, our Phantom was still probably the weakest member of the party by a good margin. What's to blame there? It's probably some combination of the Phantom's playstyle, that I didn't push the encounter design harder, that the resting was still too generous, the other party members not complementing them, magic item availability... there are just so many variables. Too many variables.

    Ultimately, I decided that I'm brewing in order to make the game more fun at my table. If I think I've got good encounter variety & strict resting rules, and the rogue is still underperforming, I should be buffing the rogue. If folks don't have those experiences, more power to them but this brew just won't be useful at their table

    Still chewing on your individual class thoughts. Will come back to this hopefully tomorrow!
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2024-02-19 at 07:57 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: Giving Every Rogue Subclass a 6th-Level Feature

    I'm bookmarking this mainly to come back and steal ideas from later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Assassin - Reaping Speed
    Player's Handbook
    At 6th level, whenever you roll initiative, you can treat a d20 roll of 17 or lower as an 18. Additionally, on the first round of combat, you can treat any creature with an initiative result of 10 or less as surprised.
    Spoiler: Notes
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    Another simple class with a simple feature. Assassins suffer from the initiative structure of 5e. If a creature rolls better than the assassin on initiative, it takes a turn and becomes un-surprised if it was surprised before. This means that an assassin can get the jump on somebody with some great sneaking / disguising / etc, but roll low on initiative, and now their whole feature is useless. To remedy this, the assassin never rolls low on initiative.

    Even after this fix, the assassin can still kinda suck. Infiltration Expertise and Imposter are very much subject to the DM's whims, so I think it's important to give the assassin a way to guarantee their critical hits when the DM doesn't let them use their cheeky disguise strategy.
    In the short term though, I want to say that I like rolling dice and I don't really like flat or static bonuses, or many things that feel similar. If it were up to me, I would change this to be something like "you have advantage on all initiative rolls", plus "you can treat any creature with an initiative result lower than yourself as surprised". Because "Advantage" is not as good as just a straight floor of 18 (its about equal to a +3 bonus I think) its probably a slight nerf to your fix, so I would look for some other way to improve the assassin if you think necessary.

    Maybe something NOT revolving around initiative and the Surprised status, just so he doesn't become a one-trick pony. What about something like: "Each time you deal damage to a creature you gain a +1 bonus to damage on all subsequent attacks against that creature. This bonus stacks with itself, and lasts until you take a short or long rest."
    That way the longer something tries to fight an assassin, the worse things get for them.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2024-02-22 at 05:07 PM.
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    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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    Default Re: Giving Every Rogue Subclass a 6th-Level Feature

    Finally got some time! Following up now.

    Thief - Advantageous Critical:
    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    Ok, I don't like this. It steps on the champions toes and for the majority of the game will give something better than their signature ability. TH champion is not sufficiently overpowered that it can afford for this to happen. Also, this doesn't scream "thief" to me.
    I agree it's not particularly thief-y, but I'm intending it as a callout to the AD&D thief's backstab with its big damage multiplier (like how second story work is a callout to the thief's climb skill). I also think the champion is a pretty weak subclass, and doesn't deserve to be the benchmark for crit ranges. I'd be interested in eventually doing a redux of fighter subclasses as well, but until then, I'm comfortable stepping on their toes.

    Arcane Trickster - Scroll Pilferer:
    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    I like it. Of course this still required DM to give out scrolls to make it work. It sends a signal that they should though. I might even add an abiliy to craft a scroll of a spell they have been subjected to so it comes up more often.
    I like this idea a lot. I think it would be a nice addition to Spell Thief as well, since that's already touching its toes in this conceptual space. Mulling this over.

    Assassin - Reaping Speed:
    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    I am very worried about the power level here. That and the fun level. Assassins in practice could use a boost and they don't get to assassinate that often but that is really the only thing causing them to be constrained. Wih this, they will become the dominant martial and will often fuctionally end fights before anyone else gets a turn, which isn't fun for them. It would suck to have a PC in a game where you dont get tofigt the most fun, most dramatic and most powerful enemies because they are already dead by the time you take a turn (or close enough to dead it makes little difference).
    I might have made a mistake with my math somewhere, but I don't think this is necessarily true. The highest damage-to-HP an assassin does under this design comes at lv17 when they pick up Death Strike. Assuming a standard CR 17 monster's defensive stats (AC 18), an auto-crit from the assassin, and a failed death strike save, the assassin has a roughly 98% chance to deal ~156 damage, which comes out to dealing ~60% of a standard CR 17 monster's HP on average when you account for hit rate. That's a little less than double what a greatsword fighting using GWM puts out (my math shows they deal around 34%) when using action surge, without accounting for the fighter's subclass, which I think is a reasonable amount of bonus damage given how many things have to go right to get that damage off, and how little damage the assassin deals after round 1. At least based on these numbers, I don't think the assassin becomes the premier martial character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    In the short term though, I want to say that I like rolling dice and I don't really like flat or static bonuses, or many things that feel similar. [...]

    Maybe something NOT revolving around initiative and the Surprised status, just so he doesn't become a one-trick pony.
    We might be looking at it with different goals. I think the assassin's schtick is "I go first and murder someone", and players pick the class up with that schtick in mind, so it's better to double down than diversify. Will think more about the advantage on initiative thing.

    Mastermind, Phantom, Soulknife:
    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    [Snipped, misc praises]
    Appreciate the thoughts on these. Recently played with a Soulknife who at one point just gave up on using the knives and started shooting a bow, so I'm excited to propose the soulknife buffs in particular.

    Inquisitive - Hobbling Shot:
    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    not sure. Advantage is good. That bit works. The hobbling shot thing doesn't match how the theme plays in my head. Also, that last ability is pretty nuts - hitting a big bad, sealing their reaction, a legendary action and their bonus action on their turn on a hit? That's crazy. Likewise knocking an enemy prone with no check, no save. I think this one might bneed to be revisited.
    Agreed... idk if this is the right approach at all to be honest. It's hard to write control effects that are both interesting and infinitely repeatable without making the game degenerate. I'm trying to get a little more power budget here by forcing the player to take 2 turns (one to roll an inquisitive check, one to buff their attack) and require 2 successful rolls (inquisitive & attack roll), but given the success rates on those rolls I don't think it's enough.

    There's also the broader question of whether the inquisitive should even be doing all these things. I think it's a cool thematic for them, but it's a little out of left field. I'm not especially confident in this.

    Scout - Guerilla Combat:
    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    I think the motivation is sound. Not so sure about the execution. If you want an incentive to melee, this isn't it. IMagine an encounter with one monster (or where each othr has been killed). How big does the monster need to be for you to a) have been meleeing it last turn, b) move so you ae 20ft+ away from where you started the turn, and c) still be able to melee it this turn. I wonder if you could instead maybe add a melee counterattack to uncanny dodge or something? An incentive to close with an enemy and tank them? Not sure.
    My ideal scenario is that this intersects with some of the scout rogue's other features:
    • You can hit & run using your Disengage, using the +10' movement from Superior Mobility to get the right distance without Dashing, and/or
    • The monster walks up to hit you, and you jump away with Skirmisher at the end of their turn, putting you far enough away that you can move 20' to get in melee range after.
    Open to changing this, but I'd like something that rewards using the Scout's existing mobility features, which is surprisingly tough because they're so... meh.

    Swashbuckler - Dazzling Feint:
    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    With decent charisma and expertise you shouln't be failing this check often. Its a powerful ability. The swashbuckler is one of the more powerful rogues, so I don't see this as needing to be tha strong. Its also worth making sure its not just a better version of a core abiliy from another subclass that gives advantage.
    I may be missing something about the class, but in in my experience, the swashbuckler has been just okay. Their TWF attack replaces other rogues' advantage-generating tools and gives a pretty big damage boost at lv3, but in T2 their damage falls off a cliff and never comes back. This is meant to be a 3-5% damage boost (more if you favor Charisma over Dex, because the advantage becomes more valuable), that still falls off late in T2 / early T3 when Panache hopefully makes up for the lost damage.
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2024-02-25 at 02:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Giving Every Rogue Subclass a 6th-Level Feature

    Apologies for the double post. 1st-party subclasses are out of the way, so I'm chewing through some of the more popular 3rd-party content! Just finished:
    • Smuggler from Sebastian Crowe's Guide to Drakkenheim with (I think) the strongest feature of all the subclasses written thus far
    • Highway Rider from Grim Hollow Player's Guide on the opposite end of the spectrum
    • Misfortune Bringer, also from Grim Hollow
    • and the Dark Petitioner from Chronicles of Eberron
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    Default Re: Giving Every Rogue Subclass a 6th-Level Feature

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    We might be looking at it with different goals. I think the assassin's schtick is "I go first and murder someone", and players pick the class up with that schtick in mind, so it's better to double down than diversify. Will think more about the advantage on initiative thing.
    Possibly- I don't think "always acting first" is enough to carry a class; it might be enough to carry a subclass but compared to some of the other Rogue options is seems kinda boring.

    If your party knew they were going to be facing a group of enemies and the Assassin could take someone out before the fight even started, to give your group and edge or even the odds, that would interesting IMO. But not every encounter is going to be like that, and just "get extra damage if you act first and also you always act first in combat" isn't nearly as appealing. It might mechanically be very good, but as a roleplayer at heart I dislike things that offer straight, undeniable mechanical benefits at the cost of giving up all your chances at RP. (yes one of my biggest peeves with 5E is how you have to choose between ability-score increases and feats)
    With you version of things the "Surprised" status really just stops even being relevant, and the Rogue basically just gets extra damage against ~85% of all enemies.

    Anyhow, I would prefer that something offers at least a CHANCE of failure, even if you stack the odds in your favor. And if you always act basically the same in every encounter (the one-trick pony), then either things get really boring really fast, or the DM starts building encounters specifically to counter you, which breaks verisimilitude and gets really boring in another way. Just my 2 cents.
    I like your ideas, I'd just tweak them to worry less about a single mechanical advantage.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2024-02-28 at 08:22 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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    Default Re: Giving Every Rogue Subclass a 6th-Level Feature

    Update: Features for Steinhardt's Guide to the Eldritch Hunt are now up! Next up is Valda's Spire of Secrets, and then I'll either look at some popular DMsGuild stuff or Kobold Press.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    I like your ideas, I'd just tweak them to worry less about a single mechanical advantage.
    I'll see if I can get it to a playtest and post some thoughts.

    The intention here is that going first just unlocks the rest of the assassin's gameplay, which centers around achieving Surprise. If an assassin doesn't put effort into disguising / sneaking / etc, their auto-crit feature hinges on whether an opponent rolls <=10 on initiative. Most big bosses have a positive Dex, making this worse than a coin toss. Ideally the assassin player thinks "if I get the jump on Auril, I will auto-crit her with my high initiative, so I should disguise myself as a frost druid" instead of the current thought process, "even if I get the jump on Auril, it's a coin flip whether I'll get to crit her at all, so I should just sit in the back and shoot arrows". Ideally this leaves the player still making rolls and engaging with the rule system, but the rolls are proactive instead of reactive, and they're stealth / deception / etc instead of initiative.
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2024-02-28 at 02:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Giving Every Rogue Subclass a 6th-Level Feature

    Had a chance for a one-shot, but no one bit on the assassin. Still looking.

    While the search is still ongoing for that, Valda's subclass features are now up. Boy do I reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally dislike the subclasses in Valda's. They feel totally haphazard.

    Next up, Kobold Press!
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