OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread

[gatorized]

That was my take.

As to Rich knowing the rules: heck, he wrote at least one supplement, didn't he?

Plenty of supplements were written by people who didn't have the slightest understanding of the rules. For that matter, most of the people who worked on the core books didn't understand the rules either. I'm not making any claim about Burlew's knowledge; I've never met him. But this isn't a point for or against it.

[Peelee]

I mean on that very point, "hippopotamus" means "water horse". A hippopotamus is not actually a horse, and anyone who tries to argue that it is is being very silly.

Color me embarrassed for forgetting that. Also, yeah, hippos are obviously not horses.

Spoiler: This is a horse

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[brian 333]

Really, crocodiles have a lot more superficially in common with lizards than dinosaurs do, but I've also never heard anyone trying to argue that they're actually lizards.

Komodo dragon would like to have a word with you.

Birds and Crocs are more closely related to each other and to dinosaurs than to lizards. They evolved from archosaurs. Lizards evolved from lepidosaurs, which co-evolved with the ancestors of crocodiles after the Permian extinction event. The two groups have been distinct for over 250 million years.

Color me embarrassed for forgetting that. Also, yeah, hippos are obviously not horses.

Spoiler: This is a horse

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Why did you post a picture of a red dragon?

[Laurentio III]

[*]Elan has a BAB of at least +10 and no Strength bonus. He probably needs a natural 20 even with magic.

Elan uses CHA bonus to hit by Prestige Class, as long as he can include a pun in his speech. This allows a +6 bonus (plus a +1 from the magic belt, if appliable). This sets him in Belkar's range.

[HUMVEE Driver]

Calder's holding it by the blade. Unless he's planning on stabbing Bloodfeast with the handle, I think he's fine.

In the preceding panel he's clearly holding it pointy end forward.

[Aedilred]

Komodo dragon would like to have a word with you.

Komodo dragons aren't crocodiles... Not sure what your point is?

[Ruck]

Never heard of the term, and a Google search led to Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alley-oop - but that doesn't seem to fit expect very remotely (Belkar tossing Bloodfeast...).

Belkar tossing Bloodfeast is exactly what I thought it was referencing.

[AvengerSquadron]

Yesterday had not been a very good day, but I finished it by checking the site and finding the new comic. Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator taking a great bite out of Calder allowed me to go to bed on a much more positive note. Bravo Mr Burlew. That was well worth all the waiting and teasing since Bloodfeast was polymorphed.

[LadyEowyn]

Belkar tossing Bloodfeast is exactly what I thought it was referencing.

Thank you! I was completely confused by the strip title but now I get the reference.

[gbaji]

Yeah. Maybe it's a more old school reference, but "alley oop" would be something you'd say when tossing someone upwards, or lifting them up. Say... when helping a friend get over a high fence and giving them a boost up while they grab for the top of the fence. Or parents tossing their small children up into the air and catching them. Which is totally a thing parents used to do, and we were probably never dropped (much). So all good...

[Peelee]

Yeah. Maybe it's a more old school reference

Spoiler

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Alternate take:

Spoiler

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[Ekim One-Eye]

That! Was! Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

[Lana Jokey]

Eiher Belkar has invested in Wisdom or Intelligence somewhere, or he rolled a natural 20... That was a truly epic move. It won't take down the dragon. But it will BRING down the dragon and this just because a fight the Order of the Stick can win.

Even a blind Squirrel can find his nuts twice a day

[Thoughtbot360]

{scrubbed}

[gatorized]

Do you think the dragon has figured out the sword's properties? Maybe he's planning to use it against the party to dispel their beneficial magic. I'm pretty sure that only works when Roy wields it, but maybe I'm wrong, and dragon might not be aware of that if it is the case. I probably wouldn't want to waste slots on dispel magic / counterspell instead of control or disabling if I was him, and the sword can deal damage in the same action.

[danielxcutter]

According to the Class & Level Geekery Thread:

• Roy has a BAB of at least +14 and a Strength bonus of +9 (with magic items), so his attack bonus without magic is probably somewhere around +20. Two iterative attacks can hit without a natural 20.
• Belkar has a BAB of +15 and a Strength bonus of +2 or +3, so his attack bonus without magic is +16 or +17. If he squeezed Weapon Focus or something in there, his second unmagicked attack could hit on a 19.
• Durkon has a BAB of +9 and a Strength bonus between +3 and +5. Without magic, his first attack needs at least a 19 to hit.
• Elan has a BAB of at least +10 and no Strength bonus. He probably needs a natural 20 even with magic.
• Haley has a BAB of +12 and a Dexterity bonus of +5 ("even in anti-magic"). That's comparable to Belkar.
• Minrah probably has a BAB somewhere north of +7 and a Strength bonus of +2 to +4. On par with Elan.
• Vaarsuvius is a wizard.

So not quite true, but close to true.

Well Belkar does have Rage, but the TWF penalties negate the to-hit bonus from extra Strength so… yeah. What’s worse is that the AMF would also negate any defensive abilities and AC bonuses on the Order as well as magical Constitution bonuses, so Calder has a quite good chance of killing at least two Order members per round with full attacks. Let’s hope Bloodfeast makes it hard for him to do that.

Point 1: Since when has the Order fought monsters in their league?

Point 2: Most people are assuming Calder is Old because, um, he looks old. He's got a vaguely gaunt face and a broken horn and a...beard? And bushy...eye...ridges... Anyways, Rich presumably designed him that way for a reason, presumably to communicate that this is an old dragon, and hence a dangerous one.

For what it’s worth, he’s probably fairly old for most non-divine beings in the comic. And “mature adult” is probably the equivalent of… I dunno, maybe 30s~40s for a human? He’s definitely not a kid.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The problem with that analogy is that the allosaurus does "bark". Let's run through the characteristics of lizards:

• Four limbs
• Egg laying
• Endoskeletion
• Cold blooded (maybe the real one might not have been, but the pop cultures ones are)
• Long tails
• Overlapping, keratinous scales

Spoiler: Behold, a lizard!

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Wings are limbs, eggs and skeleton are obvious, "tail" is vague, overlapping keratinous scales on the feet.

You could argue that it's warm-blooded, but the cold-blooded/warm-blooded dichotomy is BS.

And if I'm allowed to point to monsters of fantasy and folklore—since OotS takes place in a fantasy world—I could do my Diogenes act all year. Wyverns and bunyips and peludas, oh my!

Anyways. You're wrong about how taxonomy works. This kind of logic is exactly why ancient cultures thought whales were big fish.

Or when they are babies! The whole four legs in the morning, two during the day, three at night thing.

Turns out babies are the best pack-beasts of all!

Nah, they're too small. A giant baby the size of a kindergartener has the carrying capacity of an adult human with an equal Strength score, and most babies don't have an adult's Strength.

Ogres forced to play horsey by said giant baby would be much more effective.

Elan uses CHA bonus to hit by Prestige Class, as long as he can include a pun in his speech. This allows a +6 bonus (plus a +1 from the magic belt, if appliable). This sets him in Belkar's range.

Ah, right, right. Good catch!

[Liquor Box]

Point 1: Since when has the Order fought monsters in their league?

Point 2: Most people are assuming Calder is Old because, um, he looks old. He's got a vaguely gaunt face and a broken horn and a...beard? And bushy...eye...ridges... Anyways, Rich presumably designed him that way for a reason, presumably to communicate that this is an old dragon, and hence a dangerous one.

On the second, I suppose it's a matter of impressions. I don't think it looks gaunt, and I don't think a broken horn or something that looks like a beard and busy eyebrows are signals of age - young creatures can have those things too. But if that's what you see, perhaps that was the impression the author was trying to create. i assume not, because it's not what i see.

On the first point - we only know that for sure when the level of the opponent is mentioned (such as where Hayley fights Sabine). But I think it appears that they do much of the time - for example the Linear Guild (other than Pompey) seems to be of a similar level to the Order in most encounters. Beyond that, lots of encounters we simply don't know (eg the fight with the frost giants, or Roy fighting the Ogre who fell off the cliff), but even then I think we can deduce that they are roughly level appropriate from the fact that the fights seem challenging but winnable. Sure there, are encounters which are obviously not level appropriate - such as fighting Xykon, but those seem to be exception boss fights.

Plenty of supplements were written by people who didn't have the slightest understanding of the rules. For that matter, most of the people who worked on the core books didn't understand the rules either. I'm not making any claim about Burlew's knowledge; I've never met him. But this isn't a point for or against it.

The idea that "plenty of supplements were written by people who didn't have the slightest understanding of the rules" and "most of the people who worked on the core rulebooks didn't understand the rules" are at best counter-intuitive.

Are you able to provide a source, or explain why you think that.

[albertonykus]

Spoiler: Behold, a lizard!

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Wings are limbs, eggs and skeleton are obvious, "tail" is vague, overlapping keratinous scales on the feet.

You could argue that it's warm-blooded, but the cold-blooded/warm-blooded dichotomy is BS.

I would have gone with one of the long-tailed hummingbirds (as it could be argued that they are "cold blooded" during torpor), but yes, brilliant.

[Hardcore]

About the species of Bloodfeast; "Dinny, Alley Oop's pet dinosaur, was designed as an amalgam of different features and was not meant to resemble any known dinosaur. Dinny's species is identified as a "Cartoonosaurus" in the daily strip on April 12, 1968."

Cartoonosaurus 😂

[drDunkel]

The sword in Calder's left hand makes me a little nervous. Anyone else feel like the placement of the arm in the big panel (with Roy's sword hidden out of view) makes it look like Bloodfeast just took a greatsword to the heart? The dino's expression looks awfully surprised..

I think their eyes are supposed to be oriented that way normally. Vertical oval. Look at #778

[Peelee]

I could do my Diogenes act all year.

Only if you learn to not bow for the king

[gatorized]

On the second, I suppose it's a matter of impressions. I don't think it looks gaunt, and I don't think a broken horn or something that looks like a beard and busy eyebrows are signals of age - young creatures can have those things too. But if that's what you see, perhaps that was the impression the author was trying to create. i assume not, because it's not what i see.

On the first point - we only know that for sure when the level of the opponent is mentioned (such as where Hayley fights Sabine). But I think it appears that they do much of the time - for example the Linear Guild (other than Pompey) seems to be of a similar level to the Order in most encounters. Beyond that, lots of encounters we simply don't know (eg the fight with the frost giants, or Roy fighting the Ogre who fell off the cliff), but even then I think we can deduce that they are roughly level appropriate from the fact that the fights seem challenging but winnable. Sure there, are encounters which are obviously not level appropriate - such as fighting Xykon, but those seem to be exception boss fights.



The idea that "plenty of supplements were written by people who didn't have the slightest understanding of the rules" and "most of the people who worked on the core rulebooks didn't understand the rules" are at best counter-intuitive.

Are you able to provide a source, or explain why you think that.

Have you seen the dysfunctional rules thread? It's fairly obvious that the 3.5 writers did zero destructive testing on their system.

[Unoriginal]

Only if you learn to not bow for the king

You need to tell the king 'out of my sun',

Cup your hands in water to drink some

Live in a big jar just for fun

Search for a man, to Diogenes be

Have you seen the dysfunctional rules thread? It's fairly obvious that the 3.5 writers did zero destructive testing on their system.

And very little efficient testing in general.

Are you able to provide a source, or explain why you think that.

There's more than 20 years of well-documented explanations on the topic.

A few examples: the Druid class, the Truenamer class, the Samurai class, the grappling rules, the Exotic Weapons...

[DavidSh]

Anyways. You're wrong about how taxonomy works. This kind of logic is exactly why ancient cultures thought whales were big fish.

On the other hand, some people today will point out that, since whales are more closely related to salmon than either is related to sharks, they must be fish. (As humans would be, by the same argument.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar tossing Bloodfeast is exactly what I thought it was referencing.

yes it was. There was also a 50's or 60's era NFL QB who had an alley oop play with one of his ends. Not sure if it was Sid Luckman, or YA Tittle, or whome else. Maybe Otto Graham? Memory hazy. I had to look this up:

Spoiler: YA whom?

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The alley-oop is an American football play in which the quarterback throws the ball high into the air, and another player jumps up and catches it. The play was developed in 1957 by San Francisco 49ers players Y. A. Tittle and R. C. Owens.

Thank you! I was completely confused by the strip title but now I get the reference.

My initial take was the sports reference. But once someone mentioned the comic strip, which I recall from my youth, I can see a double pun/ref at work again.

On the other hand, some people today will point out that, since whales are more closely related to salmon than either is related to sharks, they must be fish. (As humans would be, by the same argument.)

And we even have Fish (user) posting here.

[GreatWyrmGold]

On the other hand, some people today will point out that, since whales are more closely related to salmon than either is related to sharks, they must be fish. (As humans would be, by the same argument.)

I will grant that "fish" is a cladistically nonsense category. However, I assumed people would understand what I meant by that, and chose to use a more elegant phrasing than "why ancient cultures thought whales were not artiodactyls".

[Mordar]

Or perhaps more relevantly for a taxonomy claim, carnivoran literally means carnivore, but the clade includes plenty of omnivores, some of which eat far more plants than meat. And then there are the giant and red pandas, both carnivorans, both herbivorous.

That's exactly what they want you to think...

I mean on that very point, "hippopotamus" means "water horse". A hippopotamus is not actually a horse, and anyone who tries to argue that it is is being very silly.

Look, just because you're not able to get a saddle on one doesn't mean the rest of us can't.

- M

[Psepha]

I mean on that very point, "hippopotamus" means "water horse". A hippopotamus is not actually a horse, and anyone who tries to argue that it is is being very silly.

If someone rode up to me on a hippo and told me it was a horse, I'd be hesitant to argue with them.

[KorvinStarmast]

"why ancient cultures thought whales were not artiodactyls".

Did ancient cultures even know that word?