Frieren: Beyond Journey's End

[pendell]

So I'm watching Episode 22 of this anime and I was wondering if there were any other fans who's like to comment? It's really , really popular with the Zoomers, at least from what I've seen on other social media.

The basic story is that Frieren was the mage of the party which defeated the Demon King, saved the world, and made peace throughout the land. She went off on a journey, and told her friends she'd come back to visit her old friends the next time a particular meteor shower falls, which is a seventy year interval. She, being a thousand-year-old elf, doesn't notice the passage of time.

Her human and dwarven companions, however, do. By the time she returns, Himmel, the hero, is dead and her other friends are very old. Currently, she's on a trip to the far northern lands with their children -- specifically, the priest's adopted ward and the dwarven warrior's human apprentice. On their journey, which retraces the journey she took to fight the Demon King , we frequently have flashbacks to the earlier journey when she remembers that and her friends. Himmel, the hero, features frequently in these. He really was a kind person who had a major impact on Frieren's outlook. I don't know if you could call it "love" exactly -- Frieren is both asexual and aromantic -- but he definitely touched her heart for the better, whatever you call it. His ideas and views shape Frieren's dealing with the children and people she now travels with. As did her mentor, Flauma, a legendary mage today, the founder of human magic, but Frieren knew her as a person and a friend.

It's a slow , slice-of-life anime except for one four-episode arc in which they confronted Aura the Guillotine, one of the surviving demons of the hoard who is out to conquer the world and make trouble. That is some solid Shonen anime there, which is resolved when all of our characters show their strength, and Frieren triumphs -- not with showy magic, but with inner strength and the use of her wits.

Frieren -- well, essentially she's Galadriel. She's always calm, always gentle save to monsters, whom she will dispatch in short order with brutal efficiency. This happens occasionally on their travels, but they don't seek battle. More often they will take jobs such as cleaning a statue or helping a village with harvest or other non-combat magical work, in exchange for grimoires which Frieren collects.

It's available on CrunchyRoll and Amazon Prime.

CBR calls it "Best anime of 2023" .

Screenrant calls it the "current biggest fantasy anime".

All of which I find surprising. Frieren isn't your normal Shojo or Shonen protagonist. Her companions, Fern and Stark, are human adolescents who seem to be their for audience point of view and contrast, the Watsons to her Holmes. As I said, it's a bit like adventuring with Galadriel as she appeared in Fellowship of the Ring -- strong, kind, yet somehow beyond the reach or ordinary people. If anything, she's the Virgin or Pure Maid or Saint archetype. Normally, this is the kind of the person who's a quest-giver in these stories, not the main protagonist.


If there's one bone I have to pick with the show, it's with the underlying world-building which is old-school D&D. The monsters are monstrous, and are to be killed on site. In the aforementioned Aura the Guillotine arc, a demon army sends emissaries of peace to a human town. Frieren responds to the peace emissaries with shoot-on-sight violence, cause the only good demon is a dead demon, and she's proven right. We have a flashback to the time when her party had spared a demon begging piteously for its life -- only to have that act of mercy result in the deaths of even more humans down the line.

To someone who remembers Undertale, OOTS, and Terry Pratchett, that seems a step backward. Given that we in the west tend to treat monsters as a parable for our own experience, stand-ins for people of other genotypes or cultures whom we thought monstrous in history only to find they were people like ourselves. In most modern western story telling, monsters are misunderstood creatures picked on by an overwhelmingly powerful humanity. Even Promised Neverland , which starts with demons eating children, eventually finds a way to reconcile the two species to each other.

The show seems very much like a step back in those areas, though still quite good if you can overlook that aspect.

Anyways, are there other fans here?



Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Saph]

The monsters are monstrous, and are to be killed on site. In the aforementioned Aura the Guillotine arc, a demon army sends emissaries of peace to a human town. Frieren responds to the peace emissaries with shoot-on-sight violence, cause the only good demon is a dead demon, and she's proven right. We have a flashback to the time when her party had spared a demon begging piteously for its life -- only to have that act of mercy result in the deaths of even more humans down the line.

That's hilarious, and makes me wish I'd watched the slow long enough to get to that part. I can just imagine the outrage from certain Western viewers upon discovering that the demons in this show actually act like demons.

Anyway, I only watched a couple of episodes of Frieren, but I did enjoy it. Very slow, though.

[Rynjin]

I've seen the first 3-4 episodes and they were all great. Need to get on more of it.

[pendell]

That's hilarious, and makes me wish I'd watched the slow long enough to get to that part. I can just imagine the outrage from certain Western viewers upon discovering that the demons in this show actually act like demons.

Anyway, I only watched a couple of episodes of Frieren, but I did enjoy it. Very slow, though.

Check out Episodes 9-11 . For three brief episodes this is an action anime before returning -- mostly -- to it's relatively staid pace.

For me, the show really hits its pace in Episode 13-16 when they add an adult male priest to the party and, for a brief time, they're like a real adventuring party with banter and byplay. Sadly, our priestly companion is Put On A Bus at the end of the arc to continue pursuing his childhood friend, who has been missing for ten years. I hope we see him again.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[DeTess]

I like the show a lot, but especially the slow parts others seem to dislike. When frieren is a slow, atmospheric meditation on the effects of near immortality on Frieren's worldview and (in)ability to connect with others it is something unique. During the action arcs it is still good, but it loses what makes it stand out a bit imo.

I actually liked how the demons were portrayed. The fact that they're not noble but misunderstood is actually a bit rare these days, and it's clearly shown that they're not so much intentionally evil, as they are operating under a completely different set of morals and are incapable of understanding humans. In a way they are an interesting foil to Frieren, who is inhuman in her own way, bu still willing/capable of empathy with the shorter lived races.

[theangelJean]

This show originally seemed like a slow life/philosophical story to start, and my husband recommended it to me for that reason; this was before the battle arc. I didn't actually start watching it regularly, but we found the manga and I've read a few volumes. The kid has read more than I have, though. I did watch a couple of episodes with the kid and we liked it, but we haven't had time to get back to it yet.

If you think the anime is slow, the manga is downright sparse. There is lots of scene-setting landscape, the characters are pretty laconic and the faces are nearly expressionless. I don't know if it's a translation issue but the wording they use is pretty plain as well. So basically the main appeal of the manga is the story, which is mostly quiet and philosophical ... for a while.

[pendell]

I wish Disney would take notes because Frieren is how a girlboss is done right. She is the MC of the story, and the story revolves around her, yet she gives room for the other characters to breathe and have their own turn to shine in the spotlight. Male team-members or antagonists are effective and credible in their own right. In what I consider a stunning feat of writing, she could be written as a Mary Sue but she's not. Being a thousand-year-old mage who has been building her power and her repertoire for all that time, she would make a world-threatening villain if evil. Yet she doesn't overshadow the other characters, and she passes a modified version of the Bechdel test -- characters have conversations about other things and events not related to her. It's not All About Frieren; she gives the other characters room to breathe, room to excel.

If she were to be transported to Discworld, she would make great visiting faculty at Unseen University to teach the most important lesson about magic, which is how not to use it. She is powerful, yes, yet she holds herself in check, and this allows the other characters in the story to flourish.

I rather like this version of the girlboss, contra the Disney/marvel takes on the concept.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[lord_khaine]

To someone who remembers Undertale, OOTS, and Terry Pratchett, that seems a step backward. Given that we in the west tend to treat monsters as a parable for our own experience, stand-ins for people of other genotypes or cultures whom we thought monstrous in history only to find they were people like ourselves. In most modern western story telling, monsters are misunderstood creatures picked on by an overwhelmingly powerful humanity. Even Promised Neverland , which starts with demons eating children, eventually finds a way to reconcile the two species to each other.

The show seems very much like a step back in those areas, though still quite good if you can overlook that aspect.

This is of course a matter of perspective. The "oh noes monster is just misunderstood" was strongly overdone.
And hence i see genuinely evil demons as a breath of fresh air that saves us from things getting to homogenized.

I don't know if you could call it "love" exactly -- Frieren is both asexual and aromantic

Oh you should absolutely call it love. Even if it took Frieren about 60 years to realize how much she cared for Himmel.
Certainly, the part that got me hooked for the entire show were the trailer where Frieren cries at Himmels funeral.
Cursing herself for forgetting how short lives humans have.

And besides that. Such a lovely novel story. Its a really interesting topic i think.
A bit "the heroes won, then what?" though that bit did alas not get explored enough i think.

[pendell]

Well, there's another award . Frieren is rated #4 in the best anime category behind Bungo Stray Dogs 5, Attack on Titan The Final Season The Final Chapter (?) and Bleach: Thousand-Year Blood War - The Separation.

Given the top three contenders are all sequels to existing franchises that makes Frieren the best new anime, and it is being celebrated as such.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rynjin]

And considering the show had more quality in the 4 episodes I've watched than either of AoT's and Bleach's final seasons, it's pretty safe to say it got robbed lmao.

[Psyren]

Mother's Basement sang its praises, which was enough to catch my interest, and the first several episodes definitely cemented that.

I agree with DeTess, the show is at its strongest in the meditative moments and at its weakest when it starts spooning in the standard shonen battle stuff, especially with how unbelievably overpowered Frieren herself is - to the point that she and her team run into multiple archdemons and she's all like "you young whippersnappers can handle them, how will you level up properly if I wreck them all for you?"

That minor nitpick aside, the show as a whole is very strong, and it definitely highlights how you can emphasize elven alienness in a fantasy setting without diminishing other species too. The humans and dwarves have plenty of agency and uniqueness of their own, and Frieren's own archmage master was human so it's not like humans have an artificial power ceiling other than their more limited lifespan.

[lord_khaine]

Eh possibly an overstatement to call all them arch demons. Possibly demon lieutenants.
And part of the reason Frieren left them to her friends, were because she had to deal with their boss.

[Lemmy]

Eh possibly an overstatement to call all them arch demons. Possibly demon lieutenants.
And part of the reason Frieren left them to her friends, were because she had to deal with their boss.

It's also worth noting that they aren't an embodiment of sin, devoted to evil or anything like that. They are called "demons" just because that's the name a legendary mage gave them... But they aren't even particularly powerful compared to mortals who put the effort to become strong.

They are essentially psychopath elves: long lived creatures with a knack for magic, but completely lacking in empathy (even towards their own kind).

Each one of them devotes their entire lives to the creation and development of a single spell and they are extremely proud of their magical abilities (this pride is pretty much the only emotion they display consistently).

They are basically a way to answer the hypothetical question of "What if Frieren were evil?".

Frieren is extremely powerful, of course... But she isn't invincible. She's actually saved quite a few times by her companions... Besides, the fights in the anime is more to show the conflict between character than for the sake of the action itself... It just so happens that the actions is also really well done and animated.

[pendell]

It's also worth noting that they aren't an embodiment of sin, devoted to evil or anything like that. They are called "demons" just because that's the name a legendary mage gave them... But they aren't even particularly powerful compared to mortals who put the effort to become strong.

They are essentially psychopath elves: long lived creatures with a knack for magic, but completely lacking in empathy (even towards their own kind).

Each one of them devotes their entire lives to the creation and development of a single spell and they are extremely proud of their magical abilities (this pride is pretty much the only emotion they display consistently).

They are basically a way to answer the hypothetical question of "What if Frieren were evil?".

Frieren is extremely powerful, of course... But she isn't invincible. She's actually saved quite a few times by her companions... Besides, the fights in the anime is more to show the conflict between character than for the sake of the action itself... It just so happens that the actions is also really well done and animated.

Well , Fern has promised to kill Frieren in today's episode... sort of.

Spoiler

Show

The dungeon they are in is able to construct duplicates of anyone entering it; the imitations have the power and skills of the adventurers. So far the team is confronting imitation-Frieren as the final boss. Fern says she has a way to kill her ... we'll see.

If I had to guess, it probably has something to do with a mimic treasure chest and a spell book .

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[-D-]

They are essentially psychopath elves: long lived creatures with a knack for magic, but completely lacking in empathy (even towards their own kind).

Funny. According to lore they are more like highly advanced Mimics. They use words and empathy to trick humans into eating them. Much like Mimics imitate chests to trick Frieren into inspecting them.

They are basically a way to answer the hypothetical question of "What if Frieren were evil?"

I don't think so. It's more akin to having a race of highly dangerous antagonists. They aren't like some twisting of elves. They are their own creatures that eat humans to live and work autistically on their magic.

Frieren isn't at all like that. There are parallels between her and demons, like long life, and emotionally stunted. But those are just parallels.

[Lemmy]

Funny. According to lore they are more like highly advanced Mimics. They use words and empathy to trick humans into eating them. Much like Mimics imitate chests to trick Frieren into inspecting them.

Kind of... Yeah. It's even worse in their case, because ti's clear they can live without eating human flesh. They just do it because they like it and lack any empathy for humans (or anyone else).

That said, some demons do have giant monstrous forms. It isn't clear yet why some of them are like that and others look nearly completely humans.

I don't think so. It's more akin to having a race of highly dangerous antagonists. They aren't like some twisting of elves. They are their own creatures that eat humans to live and work autistically on their magic.

Frieren isn't at all like that. There are parallels between her and demons, like long life, and emotionally stunted. But those are just parallels.

I didn't mean that's literally evil elves... Only that they show what kind of threat Frieren could become if she lacked empathy, as that is pretty much all that differentiates them from her.

- Long lived.
- Obsessed with magic.
- Doesn't feel / express emotions to the same degree as humans.

Am I describing Frieren or a demon?

[-D-]

Kind of... Yeah. It's even worse in their case, because ti's clear they can live without eating human flesh.

You can live without your favorite food. But why would you, if you can acquire it without extra cost to you?

That said, some demons do have giant monstrous forms. It isn't clear yet why some of them are like that and others look nearly completely humans.

Older demons look more beastly, because they didn't yet evolved to fool humans. Current demon Spiegel from age of myth looks more like a sentient crystal. And is essentially immobile. Remember that Mimics, Demons and Magic beasts share a common ancestor.

- Long lived.
- Obsessed with magic.
- Doesn't feel / express emotions to the same degree as humans.

Am I describing Frieren or a demon?

Demon. Frieren isn't obsessed with magic. She likes and collects magic. If you said obsessed with ending up in Mimics' stomach you'd have a point.

Demons are obsessed with sharpening their magic to ludicrous degrees. Frieren likes finding and learning obscure ("legendary" ) level magic. Like magic to iron out clothes or make grapes sour, or magic food seasoning.

[pendell]

The fundamental issue with demons, as explained in the arc in which our heroine fought them, is their life-cycle. To wit, they are abandoned at birth by their parents to raise themselves, much as real-life snakes do. Being utterly bereft of anything resembling a support network, first to scramble and compete for themselves against other equally brutal creatures, demons grow up asocial and without compassion. People have attempted to take in immature demons and raise them as human, but it hasn't worked out any better than trying to raise wild wolves with domesticated dogs. Because of this, demons are very powerful magically but have difficulty forming any kind of society beyond the rudimentary level. Hierarchy among demons is decided solely by their mana count; the higher the mana, the more they are leaders. Aura the guillotine actually had a magical artifact -- the scales of balance, I believe -- that would weigh the mana of two souls and confer on the one with greater mana absolute control over the other. The demon king, then, must have been a figure of extraordinary power, having the highest mana of any demon in the world.

This does raise the suggestion that maybe the demons COULD be changed for the better if you started them out as infants, raised them in human families, then allowed them to bond and marry others raised under similar conditions. You might be able to create an entirely different kind of demon, one which possessed empathy and social skills -- which would mean their could be the makings of a real demon society.

Of course, that might come with a downside as well, inasmuch as demons with the social skills of humans but retaining their overwhelming advantage in mana could thereby become the apex preadators, the dominant species, on the planet. One such world is seen in The Promised Neverland. Be a shame if Frieren's world had the same thing happen to it.

Elves aren't like demons in that, though they lack reproductive instinct, nonetheless mate and form families. The earliest vision we have of Frieren is of the mage Flauma coming upon her in the ruins of a village -- it was Frieren's home, which she attempted to defend. While she was able to defeat some of the attackers, she was nonetheless the sole survivor. It would be centuries before she would meet another elf.

Be that as it may, she has a foundation in family life and therefore isn't sociopathic as those beings who matured in almost total isolation.

Similarities between her and demons, sure. She'd make a dandy demon if she was entirely antisocial. But she isn't that. In addition to her village of centuries past, there have been two great loves in her life: Flauma, her mentor, and the Hero whose name I keep forgetting. These relationships and the deep ties they engendered have kept her from going full psychopath.

I have to wonder also about her relationship with Fern and with -- Curts? The young male fighter who accompanies them? She certainly seems more attached to them than Flauma's mentor was to her -- a legendary elvish mage herself, who had no reaction of sorrow to Flauma's death, remarking that she "had trained her on a whim."

Getting back to the collection of magic -- it seems as if every thing Frieren does is an echo of those early relationships. Flauma's favorite spell was one which would create a flowerbed. So that's the kind of magic Frieren seeks -- not the world-destroying Meteor Swarms or Fireballs but the little things, the small cantrips, that make life just that little better. Including one which allows seeing through clothes, which Frieren has almost no use for (works well for weapons detection, though). It was what Flauma wanted, and Frieren carries on that search in memory of her.

Same with dungeons and with treasures. Frieren is always after the treasure chests, but to me this seems less about the material contents themselves than it is about the memory of dungeon-diving with her friends. It sparks those chords of memory which for her are dearer than any diamonds. It is these mortal relationships that affect the way this immortal sees the world , even centuries after her mortal friends are gone.

Last episode had some good story-telling, I think.

Spoiler

Show

Frieren and her apprentice, Fern, move out to tackle cloned-Fern (hereafter Clone). Fern has identified Frieren's weakness: When she is casting she stops detecting mana. So she loses situational awareness once in a fight. Thus, while Clone is locked in battle with Frieren, this will give an opportunity for someone skilled in magical concealment -- Fern -- to evade her sight , then blindside her.

Frieren approves this plan and encourages her to use Zeltraak. This spell was only put into use by humans (a demon spell, repurposed) in the last century. To Fern, who grew up with it, it's nothing special. To Frieren (and to her clone) this is something she's still not used to. She can counter it, but she won't do it instinctively as she would the older spells. It will take a second or two to think and react, and those precious seconds will decide the battle.

The battle starts. Fern darts to the side. Frieren and Clone pitch into a battle royale. At its climax, Fern steps from behind her pillar, leveling her staff...

Flashback.

Centuries earlier, Frieren delivers Flauma's will, as Flauma is newly deceased, to her elvish mentor. They go for a walk and discuss events: Flauma has succeeded in legitimizing magical research in the largest human polity, the Empire, and soon all the other human nations will research it as well in an arms race. Human magical potential will increase exponentially, allowing them to eventually surpass and defeat the Demon King. Our mentor cautions Frieren to not neglect her training because she will be killed "either by the demon king ... or by a human age."

And with those last words, the flashback ends to resolve into Fern levelling her staff.

Frieren smiles her gentle smile.

The world explodes in white.

Credits!

...

Okay, not quite THAT abrupt, we have a few seconds to see it was Clone who was turned to dust and not Frieren herself, but it was still an astonishingly good ending. Metaphorically, Fern DID kill Frieren .. even if she needed Frieren's help to do so.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lemmy]

You can live without your favorite food. But why would you, if you can acquire it without extra cost to you?

Because it's sentient.

Demon. Frieren isn't obsessed with magic. She likes and collects magic. If you said obsessed with ending up in Mimics stomach you'd have a point.

Demons are obsessed with sharpening their magic to ludicrous degrees. Frieren likes finding and learning obscure ("legendary" ) level magic. Like magic to iron out clothes or make grapes sour, or magic food seasoning.

Meh... Potato, Potahto.

Both Frieren and demons are about as devoted to magic as one can be. They just go at it in different ways.
Whether that devotion is enough to be technically considered an obsession is besides the point. That was just a figure of speech.

This does raise the suggestion that maybe the demons COULD be changed for the better if you started them out as infants, raised them in human families, then allowed them to bond and marry others raised under similar conditions. You might be able to create an entirely different kind of demon, one which possessed empathy and social skills -- which would mean their could be the makings of a real demon society.

Well... We know for a fact that simply adopting a demon child and giving them love and support isn't enough to change them.
I agree that your suggestion is possible... But at that point you're basically breeding them into a new race. Turning demon-wolves into demon-adjacent-dogs.

[pendell]

Because it's sentient.
Well... We know for a fact that simply adopting a demon child and giving them love and support isn't enough to change them.
I agree that your suggestion is possible... But at that point you're basically breeding them into a new race. Turning demon-wolves into demon-adjacent-dogs.

Indeed; childhood is too late because a demon child has already been through the fundamental experience that makes a demon a demon: To be abandoned at birth , to struggle, to first survive and then to thrive entirely by their own use of mana.

This leads to the fundamental three issues that underline demon psychology that we have seen:

1) Reliance on, and excessive veneration for, mana and mana-users. Because for the demons, mana takes the place of father and mother. Without mana, none of them would have survived. At least, that's my theory but I think it's reasonable. Demon infants can survive where human infants will die, and the major difference between them is their mana. It would explain their obsession with it.

2) Pride. It's fundamental to their character. And they have much to be proud of; they survive and succeed where others have died. Their pride, even arrogance, is to a certain extent justified.

3) Disdain towards other species. At least twice in the stories demons will allow elves or humans to go on their way without harm. They aren't hungry, and they view the other people as beneath them, dismiss them entirely from their calculations. This shows up in the demon fighting arc when , at the start of the arc, the demons only consider Frieren a threat; Frieren's human companions are ignored. They are willing on multiple occasions to allow the humans to withdraw without fighting them; it's because they consider the humans beneath their notice.

In order for a demon to be other than the ones we know you would have to get them *at birth*, and give them the experience of growing up in a family from the very start. Childhood would be too late. Still, this would raise interesting child-rearing challenges because a demonic infant doesn't need parents to stay alive.

...
Or is it that the bulk of demonic infants die, while a minority survive and thrive through utter ruthlessness, possibly by cannibalizing their own siblings? If so, raising them in a cooperative family might be a significant step up from their current status.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[-D-]

The fundamental issue with demons, as explained in the arc in which our heroine fought them, is their life-cycle.

I don't think so. Demons are just magic beasts that have a talent to mimic and exploit human thoughts. In fact, replace every mention of Demon with Mimics and ask yourself would you still argue for integration of Mimics into human societies?

The fact you look at demons and go, well there must be some good in them just shows how powerful their Mimcry is. Just by looking more bipedal and emotional you would let them kill again.

This does raise the suggestion that maybe the demons COULD be changed for the better if

No. That's not how you tame a species.

You isolate them. Breed them. Separate children. Kill adults. Check children for traits you want to keep. Kill any that deviate. Rinse and repeat. For thousand of generations. This is to make them non-hostile to humans. And by the end are they still Demons?

By the end who is more monstrous you or the Demons.

Because it's sentient.

So are plants. And I bet it wouldn't stop you from eating them.

Plus sentience for demons is like umami. The more the tastier.

Both Frieren and demons are about as devoted to magic as one can be. They just go at it in different ways.

No.

Frieren likes the magic itself. She is devoted to learning and exploring it. She's more of a magic hoarder compared to magical autisic myopia the demons have.

[Lemmy]

So are plants.

I don't know what kind of salad you've been eating... But I've never seen a sentient plant. oO

[-D-]

I don't know what kind of salad you've been eating... But I've never seen a sentient plant. oO

All plants have ability to sense and react to their environment. They have ability to communicate cross species. And to lesser or greater extent have the ability to care for their offspring. In that sense they are sentient.

Your ignorance of their subtle chemical signals doesn't excuse you, salad demon :P
Edit1:
To quote a poet:

And as we descended cries of impending doom rose from the soil
One thousand nay a million voices full of fear
And terror possessed me then
And I begged Angel of the Lord what are these tortured screams?
And the angel said unto me
These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!
You see, Reverend Maynard
Tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust

Edit 2:
In hindsight we are way worse than Frieren demons to the plants. We kidnap bunch of them, selectively breed them, mutate them, expose them to poison, kill them on mass, decorate our homes with their corpses. And we sometimes enjoy their pain and torment because it smells / looks good to us (freshly cut grass anyone?). And we don't need to eat them. In fact we can feed on their predators but simply chose not to, because we don't understand them and they can't fight us or we sympathize with their predators. We also mastered magic plants will never be able to utilize (technology). And through this magic we managed to glimpse some modicum of insight into plant behavior.

So if you want to know how demons feel about humans, ask yourself how you feel about common grass.

[Lemmy]

All plants have ability to sense and react to their environment. They have ability to communicate cross species. And to lesser or greater extent have the ability to care for their offspring. In that sense they are sentient.

My bad, I meant to say "sapient' or "rational" or whatever fancy word it is... You know what I mean.

[-D-]

My bad, I meant to say "sapient' or "rational" or whatever fancy word it is... You know what I mean.

Honestly not anymore. Where do you draw the line? As far as science is concerned it's really hard to define it. For long time cats weren't considered sapient but it turns out they are just stubborn.

But again the demons simply operate on different principles. To them human feeling are as weird as you find the cries of plants.

In fact, the worst demons weren't the demons from the age of myths, but more human ones like the Demon King. They wanted to learn how humans work, so they would study humans way humans study plants.

[pendell]

I don't think so. Demons are just magic beasts that have a talent to mimic and exploit human thoughts.

That's what Flauma the legendary mage says, and certainly it's what Frieren's experience with them is , but that doesn't mean she's infallible or right. In our world, racist assumptions and ideas were the coin of the realm for centuries... before they were overturned.

In fact, replace every mention of Demon with Mimics and ask yourself would you still argue for integration of Mimics into human societies?

Mimics can't speak or do anything but eat things who stick themselves into its maw. I see them much more like animals than I see demons as.

The fact you look at demons and go, well there must be some good in them just shows how powerful their Mimcry is. Just by looking more bipedal and emotional you would let them kill again.

Because they speak. They reason. They can engage with humans via mimicry, but it IS possible for them to mimic human behavior. So, worst-case, it would be possible for even an existing demon to integrate in human society by going the Belkar route -- to "pretend to be good". And how many centuries can you keep up the pretense before the mask becomes the actor?

I have a deep-seated dislike for "intelligent, reasoning creatures are always evil and should be killed on site. " I detest "The only good X is a dead X" because I have in my ancestry some of those X that my dominant culture tried to exterminate. The mere fact that demons are capable of human mimicry implies they ARE capable of integrating with humans, if they are given enough of a reason to do so.

No. That's not how you tame a species.

You isolate them. Breed them. Separate children. Kill adults. Check children for traits you want to keep. Kill any that deviate. Rinse and repeat. For thousand of generations. This is to make them non-hostile to humans. And by the end are they still Demons?

By the end who is more monstrous you or the Demons.

I'm not talking about taming a species. I'm talking about integrating intelligent beings into society. In the question of nature vs. nurture, I am very much on the nurture side of the equation.

Frieren tells us out right in the arc that fight demons the major difference between demons and humans is the lack of empathy stemming from the demons birth experience. We can't do much about their genes, but if these fundamental birth experiences are what make them what they are, then maybe we can make a new type of demon by changing those fundamental life experiences.

From a larger perspective, it's a challenge even to integrate human children into human society. Human society is a complex game, in which people play roles , learn to respond to behavior and behavioral cues. Sitting in an indoor room at a desk pounding out lines of composition or writing math equations isn't at all what our biology prepares us for; it is learned behavior. And, just as with humans, so those animals that interact with human society are trained as well. Work animals such as horses. Assistants such as dogs. Even pests like rats and mice. All adapt and evolve to the complex rules, the complex games, the great Game, called Society.

So why couldn't a demon learn empathy at birth, then use their intellect to "play along" with human society? The original demons may have learned to mimic humans only as a way to more effectively hunt their prey , but does it have to end there?

So: I believe intelligent, reasoning creatures can be made to form a society. And if its their experiences that make them sociopathic, then let's see what happens when we give them new experiences. From birth.

The alternative solution is, as human power increases exponentially, extinction. And I consider the destruction of any intelligent species to be a source of grief. I acknowledge the wisdom and experience of both Flauma and Frieren but they are still neither infallible nor omnipotent.

Also, don't forget that at the end of the day this is a work of fiction ; it is entirely in the freedom of the author to make demons redeemable or not. And what one author chooses or doesn't choose to do, the next author can change.

In fact, the worst demons weren't the demons from the age of myths, but more human ones like the Demon King. They wanted to learn how humans work, so they would study humans way humans study plants.

Is this in the Manga? Because it hasn't shown up in the anime yet.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lemmy]

That's what Flauma the legendary mage says, and certainly it's what Frieren's experience with them is , but that doesn't mean she's infallible or right. In our world, racist assumptions and ideas were the coin of the realm for centuries... before they were overturned.

Mimics can't speak or do anything but eat things who stick themselves into its maw. I see them much more like animals than I see demons as.

Well, it's not really an "assumption" when it's literally experienced consistently for hundreds of years.

From what we have seen, demons are incapable of empathy (even towards their own kind). I suppose you could teach them to behave and integrate into society... But I don't think it's a good idea to invite over a whole race of cannibal psychopaths.

[pendell]

Well, it's not really an "assumption" when it's literally experienced consistently for hundreds of years.

From what we have seen, demons are incapable of empathy (even towards their own kind). I suppose you could teach them to behave and integrate into society... But I don't think it's a good idea to invite over a whole race of cannibal psychopaths.

And again: why can't demons empathize? Is it because they are incapable of it on a genetic level or is it just because they never experienced it? That their life experiences starting at birth make them incapable of empathy?

As I said , I lean towards the "nurture" side of the argument. To me, "empathy" is an act of imagination and of intelligence, the ability to put yourself in the other person's shoes and decide to treat them as you would wish to be treated, were the positions reversed. It requires understanding, to know the subject well enough to know what they're going through, it requires imagination, to put yourself in their shoes, and it requires ethics, the choice to do for them what you would want done for you, as opposed to merely taking advantage of their predicament for your own gain.

Put all these things together, and I come up with the answer that empathy is not inherent, but a learned skill. It is conscience in the original, literal meaning of the word: "Knowledge with", not a feeling in the gut but the concerted melding of reason, emotion, tradition, and experience with peers to arrive at a moral decision at a level below conscious thought. Certainly that was the case for me. When I was a child in grade school, I thought nothing of setting bugs on fire with a magnifying glass or smashing snails just for fun. Now, as an adult, I don't. Because I empathize with these creatures as living beings, and wouldn't want it done for me. This was an act of imagination I was flatly incapable of at age eight.

If empathy is a learned skill, then it is possible for demons to learn it. They are not unintelligent. And if their society has been cruel for thousands of years -- well, humans practiced slavery for thousands of years too. Seen from the outside, there's plenty of cruelty in human behavior, both towards other creatures and towards each other. Yet, if we do not see ourselves as good, we at least see ourselves as redeemable. Why should demons be different?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lemmy]

And again: why can't demons empathize? Is it because they are incapable of it on a genetic level or is it just because they never experienced it? That their life experiences starting at birth make them incapable of empathy?

Seems like a pretty ingrained thing, based on what we've seen... They go through those experiences because they lack empathy, not the other way around.

But, well... I'll drop that particular point because I don't want yet another thread to be hijacked by that discussion.

[Devlerbat]

In order to mimic empathy humans need to have some understanding of it even if only on an academic level. It is because of this understanding of what it is they are faking that we can develop it for real. Demons don't seem to need that to fake empathy. They use empathy without ever understanding what it is; just saying the words that they know will get the response they want from humans without understanding, or even caring to understand, what those words even mean. They don't know what a mother is; but they know that saying "mommy it hurts" stops humans from killing them. They don't know what a father is; but can still make up a sympathetic story about having a father that was killed by humans.