Frieren: Beyond Journey's End

[pendell]

In order to mimic empathy humans need to have some understanding of it even if only on an academic level. It is because of this understanding of what it is they are faking that we can develop it for real. Demons don't seem to need that to fake empathy. They use empathy without ever understanding what it is; just saying the words that they know will get the response they want from humans without understanding, or even caring to understand, what those words even mean. They don't know what a mother is; but they know that saying "mommy it hurts" stops humans from killing them. They don't know what a father is; but can still make up a sympathetic story about having a father that was killed by humans.

Indeed. Which gives us options other than complete extermination. Which, even if the story won't spell it out, is the direction the Frieren-verse is heading. If human magical capability continues to grow at an exponential rate they will eventually become so overwhelmingly powerful that annihilation becomes a real possibility. Again, the same problem with Tolkien's orcs. Do we really want a universe filled with Treblinka-equivalents where demons are "processed" out of the world?

We've had to make that same kind of adaptation in the real world. Take wolves, for example. In myths, they are savage predators who need to be fought against and killed whenever possible .. but this is written under the assumption that humans aren't able to make, long-term, any kind of real impact on the world around them. However many wolves you kill, there will always be more wolves. But in the past century we've reached the point where extinction is quite possible, and we're finding the world is a rougher place when those four-footed predators aren't in the ecosystem any more. For one thing, deer populations explode.

If I were writing the story, I would want a solution other than the complete annihilation of an intelligent species. Given that demons are at least capable of faking empathy, this implies that it is at least technically possible for them to exist in human society. Consider Malack in OOTS; he was a monster programmed to destroy human life, yet he was able to, by a combination of self-discipline and choice of companions, to thrive first in an adventuring group , then in the Empire of Blood as a senior government official. Or , again, consider Belkar: A savage sociopath who is nonetheless on the way to thriving as a member of an adventuring group. Who says demons can't learn Shojo's lesson -- "play the game" -- the same way Belkar did? Or, for that matter, the way Shojo had to? Shojo, a Chaotic, had to "play the game" of the Sapphire Guard for decades, and did it well enough to govern his city well for a long, long time.

Demons will need to learn to play the human's game, one way or another, or they will become extinct. That's all there is to it.

Like the priest says, the passcode is: "Evolve or Die".

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[-D-]

That's what Flauma the legendary mage says, and certainly it's what Frieren's experience with them is , but that doesn't mean she's infallible or right.

You're asking me to not believe thousands of years of experience vs our world that has little to do with it.

Mimics can't speak or do anything but eat things who stick themselves into its maw. I see them much more like animals than I see demons as.

That's the brilliance of Demons, they are Mimics that simply rehearse words and gestures, without any understanding. They prey on humans' empathy (remember, we put googly eyes on a machine and are willing to jump in a fire to save it).

Belkar route -- to "pretend to be good". And how many centuries can you keep up the pretense before the mask becomes the actor?

Until they evolve to actually stop being demons. So in the world it's been several thousands of years. I'm safe for the foreseeable future.

"intelligent, reasoning creatures are always evil and should be killed on site. "

Demons aren't even evil. You are projecting your previous experience onto them.
They don't even know what evil or good is. Remember the child demon, he killed another family and took their kid to replace the kid he initially slaughtered. Thinking he is doing a "good" deed. Demons should be killed on sight because they have instincts that are incompatible with humans. If that ever changes in the future, it will be probably the end of Demons as we know them (in the same way Dogs were the end of wolves as we know them).

Frieren tells us out right in the arc that fight demons the major difference between demons and humans is the lack of empathy stemming from the demons birth experience.

When did she say that? Could you point to the episode?

So why couldn't a demon learn empathy at birth, then use their intellect to "play along" with human society? The original demons may have learned to mimic humans only as a way to more effectively hunt their prey , but does it have to end there?

For the same reason, you can't teach a cat to be social. They evolved in a different context. At best, they see you as some sort of eternally familial figure that dispenses treats and cuddles. But it will see other cats, especially non-familial ones, as mostly an annoyance.

Or, the same reason you can't teach a killer orca not to kill. It's how they evolved.

Is this in the Manga? Because it hasn't shown up in the anime yet.

Maybe, I'm not sure when it happened exactly.

Spoiler: Mild Manga Spoiler

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But basically Demon King was a threat BECAUSE he wanted coexistence. His version of coexistence was enslaving humans, wiping out elves, wiping out 1/3 of humanity by trying to figure out emotions - via duel to the death.

And again: why can't demons empathize? Is it because they are incapable of it on a genetic level or is it just because they never experienced it? That their life experiences starting at birth make them incapable of empathy?

Mostly because they didn't evolve the need. Just because something is intelligent doesn't imply it's social. Or even compatible with humanity.

Assume for a moment great white sharks are sapient, intelligent animals (which is exaggerated but probably not a lie).
The problem is - they explore the world by sinking their teeth into it. Even if it's not hostile and not particularly aggressive, they will taste you a bit and spit you out, but for you, that's a deadly wound and for them, it's just a nibble. They are incompatible with human existence.

In order to mimic empathy humans need to have some understanding of it even if only on an academic level.

Not really. See ChatGPT. Access to a large enough lexicon and probability distributions of language is good enough to fool most humans. Unless you want to imply, ChatGPT can empathize and isn't just trying to placate its user.

Indeed. Which gives us options other than complete extermination. Which, even if the story won't spell it out, is the direction the Frieren-verse is heading

Well, only if you don't read the manga :P

I doubt that's what will happen. There are few scenarios:
1) Extinction - they are obliterated to a fault. I don't see it happening because demons and the holy scriptures are what drives development of human magic. Humans were mostly content with killing off the Demon King and his Lieutants. They will kill any demon that attacks the villages.
2) Separation - perhaps humans and demons learn to give each other a wide berth and never to interact, maybe they get shipped to a fantasy version of Australia, where no human will touch them
3) Evolution - they spontaneously evolve a consciousness, or attachment to humans, somehow. There might be some signs of it in the manga but very faint.
4) Enslavement/Domestication - basically they find a way to control a demon (demon dies if he kills a human), or induce artificial emotions. Honestly, probably the best path, but it won't happen.

---

These are my thoughts on Demons, I won't engage in it that much because holy ****, I want to discuss the current arcs, the melancholic music and the gorgeous animation, not this - "What measure is a Demon" -talk. The measure is in, in Frieren verse they are alien intelligence that seeks to harm humans at best, and cause crimes against humanity at worse.

[pendell]

You're asking me to not believe thousands of years of experience vs our world that has little to do with it.

No fantasy world is worth talking about if it isn't talking about our world in some way.

When did she say that? Could you point to the episode?

Episode 7 . It's the same in both subtitled and dubbed version, approx. minute 16.

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Demon: Mom...

Frieren: "Mom", again? Like monsters, demons don't raise their young. They spend most of their time after birth living in solitude.
You're solitary creatures. You have no concept of family.
So why do you use the word "mom"?

Demon: Because it stops you from killing us.

Say what you will ,but I feel a bit sorry for the demon.

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The experiment was flawed, in part, because while the village chief took her in, every day she could feel the Sakki of the villagers, the desire to kill her. She tried to solve the problem by giving the one who hated her the most a replacement for the daughter she had lost. To do this, she killed the village chief.

Which is the problem with being a hated minority. Sometimes you don't even get one mistake.

I am perfectly willing to agree that demons shouldn't simply be raised in communities because they don't know how to behave and bloodshed will follow. Which is why I would want to start at birth, not at childhood, and in carefully controlled circumstances.

I can't find the line at present where she mentions that demons , being solitary creatures, do not form societies easily and their lack of family attachments is what makes them ruthless, but even if absent it's not a difficult inference to make. Sorry , in all seriousness, I don't have more time to look for footage for the line.

As towards Frieren's thousand years of experience.

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Not really. She's lived for more than a thousand years but the bulk of that time was spent first in her village , then after one engagement with a demonic hoard Flamme's apprentice, then finally some 800 years in a garden by herself, before finally joining the heroes party. This doesn't make her an expert in demons, only in killing them.

Also as pointed out, these are not supernaturally evil creatures.

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Flamme defines "monsters who speak the human tongue" as demons -- the descendents of creatures who would feign distress to lead travelers to their doom. So while hostile they are part of the world and belong in it. They are not outsiders.

For the same reason, you can't teach a cat to be social. They evolved in a different context. At best, they see you as some sort of eternally familial figure that dispenses treats and cuddles. But it will see other cats, especially non-familial ones, as mostly an annoyance.

Cats, nonetheless have their place in human society. We do not actively hunt them to extinction as we do , say , rats or cockroaches.

Or, the same reason you can't teach a killer orca not to kill. It's how they evolved.

You can teach an Orca not to kill humans. Predators of all kinds typically distinguish between "stuff we can eat", "stuff that is us", and "stuff that is a threat". Predators don't have access to hospitalization and a small injury may very well prove fatal, so predators in the wild are often extremely careful about exactly what prey they will stalk and kill. So far as I know, only the polar bear actively pursues humans as prey.

Spoiler: Mild Manga Spoiler

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But basically Demon King was a threat BECAUSE he wanted coexistence. His version of coexistence was enslaving humans, wiping out elves, wiping out 1/3 of humanity by trying to figure out emotions - via duel to the death.

There are various kinds of coexistence. Enslavement of humans and genocide of elves is not acceptable; but it doesn't therefore mean that they must annihilate demons for their own safety and security.

Mostly because they didn't evolve the need. Just because something is intelligent doesn't imply it's social. Or even compatible with humanity.

Assume for a moment great white sharks are sapient, intelligent animals (which is exaggerated but probably not a lie).
The problem is - they explore the world by sinking their teeth into it. Even if it's not hostile and not particularly aggressive, they will taste you a bit and spit you out, but for you, that's a deadly wound and for them, it's just a nibble. They are incompatible with human existence.

Because they aren't able to understand what a human is and why it's a bad idea to bite them. Frieren-demons can.

See, thing is I think empathy is over-rated when it comes to living a productive life in society. The feeling of what is right and wrong is not the same thing as knowing what is right and wrong. The important thing is not whether or not you feel good about good things and bad about bad things. The important thing is that you choose the good and reject the evil. As for humans, so for all other intelligent life. Thus I believe.

These are my thoughts on Demons, I won't engage in it that much because holy ****, I want to discuss the current arcs, the melancholic music and the gorgeous animation, not this - "What measure is a Demon" -talk. The measure is in, in Frieren verse they are alien intelligence that seeks to harm humans at best, and cause crimes against humanity at worse.

In OUR story they are going to be enemies to be destroyed. I get that. And , yeah, I'm more than willing to drop this if you're ready to be done with the topic.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[-D-]

Episode 7 . It's the same in both subtitled and dubbed version, approx. minute 16.

Frieren tells us out right in the arc that fight demons the major difference between demons and humans is the lack of empathy stemming from the demons birth experience.

The content of that 16min and what you wrote are diametrically opposite. Demons are just solitary creatures because they are solitary predators. They aren't "evil" because their mother abandons them on birth.

To say Demons aren't evil isn't even wrong. It's precipitated on a wrong assumption. They aren't evil because they don't know right or wrong. They possess a moral compass, but it's alien - i.e. for them magic is sacred, and their magic is the best.

I can't find the line at present where she mentions that demons , being solitary creatures, do not form societies easily and their lack of family attachments is what makes them ruthless, but even if absent it's not a difficult inference to make. Sorry , in all seriousness, I don't have more time to look for footage for the line.

You can't find it because it doesn't exist.

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The demon Solitaire confirms that demons don't feel troubled was that if they did, they would be long extinct. I.e. they only have feelings that have been advantageous for their survival as Mimics (Rage, Killing intent, Fear).

In other words, because not having attachment to your offspring isn't detrimental to demons, they didn't learn to be kind to each other. For all we know they might just start as children and evolve from there, they are creatures made of mana, not flesh.

As towards Frieren's thousand years of experience.

I didn't say Frieren's years of experience. The world's thousands of years of experience. Frieren learned from Flamme, and Flamme learned from Serie.

You can teach an Orca not to kill humans.

Yeah, by killing any that try to kill humans. Which is what Frieren world is doing. It's working. Frieren isn't going on a demon fueled rampage a la Doom Eternal. She kills demons that are a global threat (Demon King and his Minions) or a threat to the party at the moment (Spiegel etc.).

See, thing is I think empathy is over-rated when it comes to living a productive life in society.

Empathy is what makes societies work. It's also the basic building blocks of our brain (see Mirror Neurons). Without it, you couldn't be able to perceive things from another's perspective.

[pendell]

Empathy is what makes societies work. It's also the basic building blocks of our brain (see Mirror Neurons). Without it, you couldn't be able to perceive things from another's perspective.

So are you proposing demons don't have mirror neurons (new concept for me, by the way, thank you)? But that doesn't make sense. A quick google tells me that mirror neurons trigger either when you perform a motor action or when you see someone else do the same thing. So you don't have to do something yourself to learn from it -- you also learn when you see someone else do it. Thus, humans learn by imitation, especially children.

But .. if these neurons were absent demons couldn't mimic humans. They could not learn from observing humans. APA spells this out specifically : Mirror neurons are what enables us to learn by mimicry, and to mimic others.

THEREFORE, I infer that the observed ability of demons to mimic humans implies they possess mirror neurons. Adding the observation that mirror neurons are the basis of both mimicry and imitation,
THEREFORE, if demons possess mirror neurons they are indeed capable of empathy; it's simply a skill they've never had to develop, any more than a person dwelling in the sahara needs to learn how to swim. They aren't incapable of it; they just haven't had a good enough reason to develop it. Yet.

ETA: I also have to dispute the idea, even if it undercuts my own logic, that mirror neurons are all there is to empathy. Because these neurons are connected specifically to the optic nerve, to sight: But we can experience empathy and fellow-feeling from reading a story, or listening to music. We do not need to see a person to empathize with them. So while they may be part of the puzzle, I doubt that's all of it.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Devlerbat]

Not really. See ChatGPT. Access to a large enough lexicon and probability distributions of language is good enough to fool most humans. Unless you want to imply, ChatGPT can empathize and isn't just trying to placate its user.

ChatGPT isn't human. I specified that humans need that and even pointed out that demons don't seem to need to. Sure, ChatGPT was built by humans, but that isn't really the same thing.

Also @ Pendell: Belkar isn't a good example. Belkar was always capable of empathy even if it was muted and he didn't see the need to exercise it. Early Dungeon Crawling Fools Belkar was even able to be made to feel guilt when he accused Hailey of stealing from him (even though she did). A demon wouldn't be made to feel guilty and Hailey's attempts to guilt trip one would fail. In fact, what Hailey did to Belkar is similar to what demons do to humans (though they wouldn't have stolen for the reasons Hailey did) and those tactics don't work on other demons at all.

[-D-]

ChatGPT isn't human. I specified that humans need that and even pointed out that demons don't seem to need to. Sure, ChatGPT was built by humans, but that isn't really the same thing.

My bad. I misread.

So are you proposing demons don't have mirror neurons.

Yes.

While mirror neurons are necessary they aren't only part in forming empathy.

Fact demons don't have corporeal bodies and don't understand human emotions is proof they are less mirror neuron, and more magical ChatGPT.

However unlike an AI they also evolve and use magic that surpasses our physics. So I don't think it's as simple as saying no demon will ever be able to emphatize with humans. Or that Demons have lost.

[pendell]

My bad. I misread.


Fact demons don't have corporeal bodies and don't understand human emotions is proof they are less mirror neuron, and more magical ChatGPT.

Wait .. demons don't have corporeal bodies? We repeatedly see Himmel and his companion the dwarven fighter slashing them up with swords. The bodies seem corporeal enough. The fact demons have to eat also implies they have corporeal bodies. Why do you say they don't? Is this something else that shows up in the manga but not the anime?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

Next episode out tomorrow. "Pinnacle of Magic" . I anticipate.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lemmy]

Next episode out tomorrow. "Pinnacle of Magic" . I anticipate.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I hope they show the other mages dealing with the copies... I'm curious to see how much they're willing to share about their own weaknesses.

I wonder if the test-giver will at least fight her own copy, since it wouldn't be there if she weren't around.

[pendell]

I hope they show the other mages dealing with the copies... I'm curious to see how much they're willing to share about their own weaknesses.

I wonder if the test-giver will at least fight her own copy, since it wouldn't be there if she weren't around.

I didn't see her copy. Was that on-screen?

I'm assuming

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Team Protagonist will smash up spiegal before the rest of the party is overwhelmed by the copies. Our test-giver has given this test before, so presumably she has some way of dealing with her copy. Maybe she's found a way to make herself invisible to Spiegel?

She's a pacifist, after all. She may have another solution ... and if she doesn't, is that part of the test? Destroying a first class mage (or at least their copy) would go a long way to prove you've the makings of one yourself.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lemmy]

I didn't see her copy. Was that on-screen

Well... Yeah. That's the copy that attacks with its hair. It almost killed an entire team and forced a girl to activate the escape golem. The two guys ran away from it, but only one made it to where the other mages are.

[pendell]

Well... Yeah. That's the copy that attacks with its hair. It almost killed an entire team and forced a girl to activate the escape golem. The two guys ran away from it, but only one made it to where the other mages are.

Okay. I remember that scene but I didn't remember that was the test-giver's duplicate. She was the young woman who attempted to use hypnosis magic on the duplicate only to discover it didn't have a mind, right?

ETA: I'm not sure I buy this "It doesn't have a mind but it imitates on exactly." Turing test? If it can imitate a mind exactly, why isn't it a mind? If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lemmy]

Okay. I remember that scene but I didn't remember that was the test-giver's duplicate. She was the young woman who attempted to use hypnosis magic on the duplicate only to discover it didn't have a mind, right?

ETA: I'm not sure I buy this "It doesn't have a mind but it imitates on exactly." Turing test? If it can imitate a mind exactly, why isn't it a mind? If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Well... That's something people are still debating IRL about AI...

Hard to say. Maybe it only reacts appropriately to certain stimulus, but not because it "wants" to, just because it's programmed to. Like... It has no will or desires, just a "if [X], do [Y]" command line.

The way it's presented in the anime, it feels like the copies don't really do anything except react to what the mages do... They just react in a way extremely similar to how the mages they're coping would react. Other than that, they simply follow the "orders" of the creature controlling them.

[pendell]

Great episode!

Non-spoiler notes.

1) Magic in the world of Frieren is based on visual imagination. If you can imagine it, you can do it. That's what makes it "magic" , I guess. It's not like science which is based on rules and observation and repeatable experiment. This is more like what happens in a dream, where "reality" is whatever the mage wants it to be, provided they can imagine it. Very matrix-like.

They keep hammering this point home over and over. It will be interesting to see how it plays out if we get a season two -- I think we've only got two episodes left in this one.

2) Combat between mages is a form of rock-paper-scissors. Some have extremely good matchups against other mages while being very weak against others.

Mild spoilers but still not going to give away too many of the events ... see for yourself!

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1) The test-giver's duplicate is indeed in the maze, and she explains it thus: "First-class mages are supposed to overcome unfair challenges." She knows its unfair, and she expects them to solve it without help from her.

2) Mimics regenerate; they don't stay destroyed permanently. So long as Spiegel is in operation, it will create and re-create duplicates of all people in the maze.

3) Frieren way outclasses everyone else here.

4) I was wrong; the ending of the last episode was somewhat deceptive. Fern did not succeed in one-shotting Frieren's replica, who blocked her attack. What happens next ... well, you'll have to see that.

5) Denken notes they have an advantage in that they, the originals, have a single advantage over the mages, which is that they can think, talk, cooperate and make plans. Thus they can force the duplicate-mages into disadvantageous matchups.

6) Our third-class mage , Ubel, is confirmed to have failed this test last time because she killed a test-giver and thereby disqualified herself.

7) Our test-giver tells us her philosophy behind the test: This is a kind and peaceful test because all you have to do is watch the backs of your fellow mages and you'll be fine. If that wasn't enough, there are the escape golems who will rescue anyone who's in too much trouble. What could be more peaceful than that?

So that confirms something I've been suspecting all along: The point of this test is to weed out the arrogant who are too proud or too untrusting to rely on others. This is the kind of match made for someone like Denken, who is determined from the start to work together with the other mages to overcome this dungeon. Not everyone was willing to go along with this plan at first, but I think that at the end of the day everyone who passed the test did so because they followed the lead of Frieren and Denken, the wisest mages present.

8) ETA: I didn't catch this the first time. There's a scene with a mimic. Count how many other dead mimics there are in the room? Mana detection ain't Frieren's weakness...

All in all, REALLY good. I may just watch it again.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[-D-]

Wait .. demons don't have corporeal bodies? We repeatedly see Himmel and his companion the dwarven fighter slashing them up with swords. The bodies seem corporeal enough. The fact demons have to eat also implies they have corporeal bodies. Why do you say they don't?

Corporeal maybe isn't the right word. Flesh and blood is perhaps better.

In anime it's been revealed killing a demon's turns rest of their body to flakes. I think it was mentioned before (when Fern fought Lugner) demons have a core. When demons are killed they just evaporate to mana, so it makes sense that core basically converts mana to a physical replica.

Anyway how did you like Spiegel's death? Seeing what original demons looked like?

I think Spiegel and principle of imagination = magic, explains why replicas can't talk. It's near impossible for old demons to talk and cooperate. Which is something new demons don't have a problem with (even in its most rudimentary form).

[Lemmy]

Great episode!

Non-spoiler notes.

1) Magic in the world of Frieren is based on visual imagination. If you can imagine it, you can do it. That's what makes it "magic" , I guess. It's not like science which is based on rules and observation and repeatable experiment. This is more like what happens in a dream, where "reality" is whatever the mage wants it to be, provided they can imagine it. Very matrix-like.

Yeah, we've had a few mentions on that system in previous episodes, but they really hammer it down here.

It kinda begs the question, though:

What happens if two mages can clearly imagine and visualize opposite outcomes? e.g.: One of them pictures an unstoppable spear and the other one pictures and unbreakable shield?

Who wins? Does will power comes into the equation? Is it a matter of who has more mana?

[lord_khaine]

I find the "Frieren is stuck in a Mimic" far, far more amusing than it should be xD
Especially with the "Its dark! and scary!" In her little girl voice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzZwlf_TWcQ
So adorable xD


Besides that. Yeah holy %¤# Frieren is scary when she really cut lose.
She does in fact know other offensive spells. Its just so far a target hasnt been worth it.

[pendell]

Anyway how did you like -- ? Seeing what original demons looked like?

I think Spiegel and principle of imagination = magic, explains why replicas can't talk. It's near impossible for old demons to talk and cooperate. Which is something new demons don't have a problem with (even in its most rudimentary form).

I'd have spoilered that as a plot point.

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It was a little anti-climactic, but Spiegel's sole defense was the replicas. I have to wonder just how intelligent it was -- it reacted more like an automated defense system than like an intelligent enemy.

Which makes me wonder .. have demons evolved since Spiegel's day? Have they gained human intelligence when they took on human appearance?

Questions in my mind:

1) When did they mention Spiegel was a demon? I believe you, because I see it all over the web, but I don't recall them specifically calling Spiegel out as such. There are all kinds of magical creatures in this world -- mimics, dragons, elves -- so I wasn't immediately concluding it was a demon.

2) Follow up questions: How did it get into that tomb in the first place? I doubt the humans built the tomb around it, so they must have captured it (and what a devil of a job THAT must have been) and placed it in the tomb to protect the final resting place forever. Which it has done well. How does it sustain itself? I've heard reference to demons "eating", but there can't be much edible in the tomb.

3) Which raises the question of why our pacifist decided that it was a worthwhile test to invade a tomb and kill an intelligent being who wasn't causing any harm to anyone outside the tomb. Memories of OOTS invading a dragon's lair to acquire the starmetal there.

My conscience is partly formed by the old Star Trek episode Devil In the Dark . Just because a creature isn't humanoid and doesn't have a mouth to speak with doesn't mean it isn't intelligent, and doesn't mean it can be killed out of hand.

It goes without saying, as well, that in the modern world Archaeologists are not grave robbers; you're supposed to analyze and examine in place not remove artifacts, especially not for sale on the open market. But of course a world based on D&D doesn't think that way; perhaps there are artifacts and rare things in that tomb which will give insight into the magic of ages past -- but if it is important, why doesn't the faculty of the institute crack it themselves rather than leave it up to students?

4) So does this mean they'll have to come up with another exam portion next time, or will they be able to revive Spiegel? Or find another similar creature to host the dungeon?

Yeah, we've had a few mentions on that system in previous episodes, but they really hammer it down here.

It kinda begs the question, though:

What happens if two mages can clearly imagine and visualize opposite outcomes? e.g.: One of them pictures an unstoppable spear and the other one pictures and unbreakable shield?

Who wins? Does will power comes into the equation? Is it a matter of who has more mana?

Well, mana has to be a part of it -- we've seen a mana versus mana battle between Frieren and Aura the Guillotine. Fern took on a demon in her arc and that was a straight up battle of mana attrition. Another part of it is who can get their spell off before the other. Being able to visualize an impenetrable shield is only helpful if the mage hasn't just had the air around them turn to water. It's all about finding the weaknesses in the spell, or in shaking their confidence and thus crippling their belief.

I assume this is why Sense, our test-giver tells us that

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Uhle is a bad matchup for her ; she can't imagine winning against her and therefore must avoid combat with her at any cost.

There's a strong power difference. In the abstract Sense, a first-class mage, is far more powerful and capable than the other . But due to their styles and personalities Sense will lose any battle she fights against this other mage, and so must avoid her. If it does come down to cases, Sense would have to find another mage to do the job -- or maybe even an ordinary fighter. It's all about finding the worst possible matchup. Not all that different from tournament fighting games, when you think about it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[ecarden]

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It was a little anti-climactic, but Spiegel's sole defense was the replicas. I have to wonder just how intelligent it was -- it reacted more like an automated defense system than like an intelligent enemy.

Which makes me wonder .. have demons evolved since Spiegel's day? Have they gained human intelligence when they took on human appearance?

Questions in my mind:

1) When did they mention Spiegel was a demon? I believe you, because I see it all over the web, but I don't recall them specifically calling Spiegel out as such. There are all kinds of magical creatures in this world -- mimics, dragons, elves -- so I wasn't immediately concluding it was a demon.

2) Follow up questions: How did it get into that tomb in the first place? I doubt the humans built the tomb around it, so they must have captured it (and what a devil of a job THAT must have been) and placed it in the tomb to protect the final resting place forever. Which it has done well. How does it sustain itself? I've heard reference to demons "eating", but there can't be much edible in the tomb.

3) Which raises the question of why our pacifist decided that it was a worthwhile test to invade a tomb and kill an intelligent being who wasn't causing any harm to anyone outside the tomb. Memories of OOTS invading a dragon's lair to acquire the starmetal there.

My conscience is partly formed by the old Star Trek episode Devil In the Dark . Just because a creature isn't humanoid and doesn't have a mouth to speak with doesn't mean it isn't intelligent, and doesn't mean it can be killed out of hand.

It goes without saying, as well, that in the modern world Archaeologists are not grave robbers; you're supposed to analyze and examine in place not remove artifacts, especially not for sale on the open market. But of course a world based on D&D doesn't think that way; perhaps there are artifacts and rare things in that tomb which will give insight into the magic of ages past -- but if it is important, why doesn't the faculty of the institute crack it themselves rather than leave it up to students?

4) So does this mean they'll have to come up with another exam portion next time, or will they be able to revive Spiegel? Or find another similar creature to host the dungeon?

Spoiler: Answers, I think?

Show

1) I don't think they did? Went back and checked, they call it a "monster from a mythical era that appears in Ewig the Sage's heroic tales."

2) So, this is unclear, but my assumption is that it simply moved in and claimed the King's Tomb at some point after construction. As for what it eats? Hard to tell. It has a giant hoard of gold and treasure, but given the lack of bodies, my expectation is that it has its duplicates bring it the corpses of people who try to raid its dungeon.

3) I'm very confused by this question? Their intent isn't to gain knowledge, or destroy a monster, it's to test the applicants and make sure only those who meet their standards pass. The morality of dungeon delving I don't think is even mentioned, because no one involved is thinking about things in those terms. Our pacifist test setter transparently does not extend that to monsters or demons, just like everyone else in the setting and our test takers...Their goal is to pass the test, if they have to kill monsters, or humans, to do that, basically everyone is onboard with that.

4) I don't think they can revive the Spiegel, or anything? As far as I can tell, different first class mages choose different tests, so which test you gets depends on who the tester is. Sense will have to come up with a new test that she can administer.

[pendell]

Spoiler: Answers, I think?

Show

2) So, this is unclear, but my assumption is that it simply moved in and claimed the King's Tomb at some point after construction. As for what it eats? Hard to tell. It has a giant hoard of gold and treasure, but given the lack of bodies, my expectation is that it has its duplicates bring it the corpses of people who try to raid its dungeon.

3) I'm very confused by this question? Their intent isn't to gain knowledge, or destroy a monster, it's to test the applicants and make sure only those who meet their standards pass. The morality of dungeon delving I don't think is even mentioned, because no one involved is thinking about things in those terms. Our pacifist test setter transparently does not extend that to monsters or demons, just like everyone else in the setting and our test takers...Their goal is to pass the test, if they have to kill monsters, or humans, to do that, basically everyone is onboard with that.

Spoiler

Show

1. These are different assumptions which probably can't be solved. Look at Serini's dungeon in the comic -- when there are monsters and traps in a dungeon, I normally assume it's because the person who built the dungeon included them to defend whatever's at the bottom of the dungeon. I suppose Spiegel COULD have just "moved in", but I assume it would have to contend with the tomb's defenses. But the tomb doesn't seem to have any defenses other than the Spiegel. Ergo, I believe the Spiegel is the original defense, and a very effective one at that.

2. I wouldn't think there would be that many bodies, and it doesn't have a mouth or anything that would imply eating meat or vegetables or anything else. It isn't spelled out , so I'm willing to let it go.

3. The morality of dungeon diving I'm willing to let pass. It's an old-school D&D world and should be appreciated as such. The point is Frieren and her long life and the impacts she has on others, and they on her. This isn't a re-telling of the civil rights struggle in a gaming world, as OOTS seemingly wants to be.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[ecarden]

Spoiler

Show

1. These are different assumptions which probably can't be solved. Look at Serini's dungeon in the comic -- when there are monsters and traps in a dungeon, I normally assume it's because the person who built the dungeon included them to defend whatever's at the bottom of the dungeon. I suppose Spiegel COULD have just "moved in", but I assume it would have to contend with the tomb's defenses. But the tomb doesn't seem to have any defenses other than the Spiegel. Ergo, I believe the Spiegel is the original defense, and a very effective one at that.

2. I wouldn't think there would be that many bodies, and it doesn't have a mouth or anything that would imply eating meat or vegetables or anything else. It isn't spelled out , so I'm willing to let it go.

3. The morality of dungeon diving I'm willing to let pass. It's an old-school D&D world and should be appreciated as such. The point is Frieren and her long life and the impacts she has on others, and they on her. This isn't a re-telling of the civil rights struggle in a gaming world, as OOTS seemingly wants to be.

Spoiler

Show

1) I agree we don't have enough information to know, but I don't agree we don't see other defenses? There's a whole lot of traps. My assumption was that it was just a classical 'trapped tomb' which the monster moved into.

2) Again, I agree we lack sufficient information to be sure, but my expectation is that having found its secure nest, it simply naps and wakes up whenever anyone comes in range, has them killed, eats them, then goes back to sleep. It's basically an ambush predator.

3) I basically agree with this, though I do think Frieren deals with this a bit and comes down quite firmly on 'no, Demons aren't just people with horns, they are fundamentally alien and hostile,' which I think is rather more interesting, if less optimistic than 'all species are just humans with extra bits grafted on.'

[-D-]

I don't think they did? Went back and checked, they call it a "monster from a mythical era that appears in Ewig the Sage's heroic tales."

In start of episode 24 after OP, they call him "Spiegel the water mirror demon". Spiegel is German word for mirror.

[pendell]

In start of episode 24 after OP, they call him "Spiegel the water mirror demon". Spiegel is German word for mirror.

Right, thank you. I'll check it if I have a chance.

Actually, I have a question for any Japanese speakers here -- what is the actual word used that is translated "demon" in the English dub and subititles? Is it a western loanword that has the same connotations as "demon" does to the western reader -- that is, a completely evil being without an ounce of goodness in it, who seeks the destruction of human beings? I ask, because linguistics is a bit of a pet hobby of mine and there are often little subtleties in translation. For instance, "Kami" is often translated as "god", but it's not really a match because "kami" doesn't exist in the standard western religions. Maybe "Djinn" would be closer.

I wish I had more time to study languages, but my AWS certification and other software courses just eat up all the time not spent in work or recreation.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Saph]

Actually, I have a question for any Japanese speakers here -- what is the actual word used that is translated "demon" in the English dub and subititles? Is it a western loanword that has the same connotations as "demon" does to the western reader -- that is, a completely evil being without an ounce of goodness in it, who seeks the destruction of human beings? I ask, because linguistics is a bit of a pet hobby of mine and there are often little subtleties in translation. For instance, "Kami" is often translated as "god", but it's not really a match because "kami" doesn't exist in the standard western religions. Maybe "Djinn" would be closer.

It's "mazoku", I believe, but that's not a term I'm familiar with, so I don't know what connotations it would have to a native speaker (and I don't want to just go by the Wikipedia definition).

Speaking from general experience of Japanese mythology, the worst creatures from the Japanese set can absolutely give Western demons a run for their money in terms of how evil/inhuman/horrific they are. There's a reason that Japanese horror is its own special genre. Trying to humanise and make friends with something like an onryo is sort of like trying to make friends with a natural disaster like an earthquake or tsunami, and likely to end about as well for the person doing it.

[Lemmy]

Right, thank you. I'll check it if I have a chance.

Actually, I have a question for any Japanese speakers here -- what is the actual word used that is translated "demon" in the English dub and subititles? Is it a western loanword that has the same connotations as "demon" does to the western reader -- that is, a completely evil being without an ounce of goodness in it, who seeks the destruction of human beings? I ask, because linguistics is a bit of a pet hobby of mine and there are often little subtleties in translation. For instance, "Kami" is often translated as "god", but it's not really a match because "kami" doesn't exist in the standard western religions. Maybe "Djinn" would be closer.

I wish I had more time to study languages, but my AWS certification and other software courses just eat up all the time not spent in work or recreation.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

If I'm not mistaken, they use the word "mazoku" (魔族)... Which is indeed a type of demon, IIRC. The "ma" (魔) refers to demons, at least.

[DeTess]

If I'm not mistaken, they use the word "mazoku" (魔族)... Which is indeed a type of demon, IIRC. The "ma" (魔) refers to demons, at least.

魔 can mean demon, but is also the first kanji in 魔法 (mahou) which means magic. 族 can mean things like clan, tribe or family, and is the second kanji in 家族 (kazoku), which means family.

Taking a shot in the dark here, but it seems almost like an intentional play on magic and family, which seems fitting. Looking up 魔族 in my dictionary suggests it means something like 'demonic race' or similar, but in example sentences it was also translated more generally as 'magical beings'.

[Lemmy]

魔 can mean demon, but is also the first kanji in 魔法 (mahou) which means magic. 族 can mean things like clan, tribe or family, and is the second kanji in 家族 (kazoku), which means family.

Taking a shot in the dark here, but it seems almost like an intentional play on magic and family, which seems fitting. Looking up 魔族 in my dictionary suggests it means something like 'demonic race' or similar, but in example sentences it was also translated more generally as 'magical beings'.

Oh... That's right. 魔 is indeed the 1st kanji from "mahou" and 族 is the second one from "kazoku".

Huh...

In hindsight, it's so obvious, but I never noticed or stopped to think about it. oO

Thank you for the clarification.

[pendell]

Okay -- so "mazoku" ( 魔族 ) = "magical family" or "magical beings" (= "creatures of mana", as proposed by -D-, which is why they disappear in sparkles?) I take it this is a made-up word for the series and not a traditional Japanese yokai? While the words themselves don't seem to have any indication of hostility, the fact that they all have horns implies the writer seems to be taking at least a bit of inspiration from western demons -- although the horns aren't strictly necessary. As we've seen, some creatures like spiegel don't have horns at all. And if we say spiegel is a "magical being", that is definitely something no one would argue with. I also have to wonder if all magical beings are necessarily as hostile as the ones like the Demon King or Aura the Guillotine, who absolutely were inimical to both humans and elves and deserved what happened to them.

ETA: It also ends the argument "Is Spiegel a demon or not?" Because the word, properly translated, means the question is better asked "Is Spiegel a magical being or not?" And the answer is clearly yes. No dispute possible any longer.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Moak]

Okay -- so "mazoku" ( 魔族 ) = "magical family" or "magical beings" (= "creatures of mana", as proposed by -D-, which is why they disappear in sparkles?) I take it this is a made-up word for the series and not a traditional Japanese yokai?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't know if they are written in the same way in japanese, but this is not the first time I read the term Mazoku: wasn't it the name of the "advanced demons" in YuYu Hakusho? Like, the "final form" of Yusuke