Elden Ring: What is is Good for?

[ArmyOfOptimists]

I'd say that 1, most games don't play enormously different at hour 30 or 60 or 100 than they do at hour 6, and 2, even if they do, that is really awful pacing. It eventually gets good is a sensible reason to play through a slow hour or two at the start, but that's as far as it goes for me. And it isn't that I didn't find anything - I found the dragon and an underground city and fought a couple giants and some sort of (mini?) boss. It was that the only hook the game offered for anything was more barely contextualized combat against under-described and irrelevant monsters in some sort of desolate area. Worse, because the game punishes mistakes so hard, it really doesn't incentivize exploration or risk taking - arguably it's habit of spawning in giant crazed bear monsters with zero warning actively discourages it. Sure I might be able to jump up between those platforms, but I also might fall and lose all my souls and also odds aren't bad it'll ambush me with some BS monster somewhere along the way. And if I did get up there, I'd probably find another wasteland filled with some slightly different really ugly monsters. Same with the underground city, cool, bet that's fun to explore - nope, more monsters. I could die a bunch here learning their moveset, or I could go die a bunch somewhere else fighting some different dudes whose moves I already knew. I didn't even try to kill the dragon. Why bother? It'd just kill me a bunch, and once I battered my head against it long enough to succeed, all it'd let me do is explore a bleak swamp or a blasted shoreline or wherever it spawned. And yeah, there's some pleasure in figuring out how to beat a hard fight, but that's the only pleasure the game seemed to offer, and it just offered it again and again and again and again and again in this sea of vague nonsense vibes and boring leveling and pointless terrain.

I feel like RPGs are supposed to play fairly different at hour 30 or 60 or 100, though. Progression is one of the main staples of the genre and you can't have interesting leveling without holding back things that will radically change the game. For many of the games you mentioned, they lock extremely basic things into their leveling. Valkyrie Elysium's weapon upgrades feature fundamental moves like "Being able to attack more than once in the air." Which is evolutionary, but I don't think it's interesting. Every weapon felt anemic until you've leveled them up 75% of the way, so I just didn't use them until I had the materials to do that.

A lot of the games you mentioned don't have the sheer scope of a Souls game either. God of War has three weapons. Valkyrie Elysium has six. Skyrim technically has nine, but since they share movesets, it really has about four. Elden Ring has 308 different weapons in it, and most of them have something that makes them unique. It might be as simple as a spear that does slashes instead of thrusts for some attacks or as crazy as a liquid metal sword that shifts into a whip, but it does make the weapons feel different besides a numerical change.

Elden Ring also does have interesting unlockable things behind its leveling system, it just doesn't put them in a menu to tease you right off the bat. You want to call down a rain of astral shards? That's only "unlocked" with 52 Intelligence. That black flame greatsword I mentioned? 32 Strength, 12 Dexterity, 20 Faith. Most of the interesting stuff has requirements in the 20-30 range, if not higher. The highest requirement on a Sorcery is 70 Intelligence! I suppose it's a point of contention that the game doesn't dangle these in front of you as motivation; it doesn't bother me, but I can understand how not having a clear direction would be disheartening.

(The other big problem was of course that the motivation was supposed to be to get to the next boss fight. I find boss fights anti-motivating, they're a thing I endure to get back to the actual game, so if the actual game isn't grabbing me, I'm definitely not putting up with it for the sake of the boss fights. You know Another Crab's Treasure, that joke crab-based Soulsalike that's coming out sometime soon, where you get a gun that lets you insta-kill every single boss? That is a game that understands me at a profound level.)

This is where I'm pretty sure you're just a different breed, and that's okay! Bosses done well are meant to be the epitome of a game. A complex, possibly evolving fight that combines all the challenges you've faced into a climactic spectacle. I love fighting against the bosses in just about any game. Even getting dragged around the arena over and over again, the feeling of making a little bit more progress, attacking it by inches until you finally pull it off is thrilling. It's like learning to play a song. Bar by bar, you master it until you've made it your own.

I have a hunch that you play games more for story than the gameplay, which is okay, but it's usually the difference between liking the Souls games and not. If you're in it for the story, they're absolutely not for you. Their settings can be interesting and layered, but the actual plot in most of them is thin and simple. Demon's Souls? You're an adventurer that came to a rich kingdom because of its magic, then got trapped because they released a demonic curse. You kill all the demons, the curse ends, and you leave. That's it. Dark Souls? Some old gods created a massive kingdom, but the source of their power has been fractured and is fading. You're a patsy hero that gets charged with killing all of them to steal the power back, then you toss yourself into a fire to keep the kingdom's source of power going. Elden Ring has a bit more to it, but it's still not particularly engaging.

If you're in it for the story, I can see why boss fights are a drag. It's like reading a book and every third chapter, someone jumps out of the closet and quizzes you. If you get it wrong, they hold the other chapters hostage until you reread what you have and pass the quiz. Me? I happen to think playing games for the story is like watching movies for the music. It's nice that it's there and it helps the experience, but it's not really the main entertainment.

[Lord Raziere]

I get liking games for the story, I play those to, but I can also like Soulslikes for what THEY offer, which is different. they are different meals with different tastes to them, to fulfill different things.

a game like.....I dunno....Tales of Symphonia I'm totally playing for the story, because its story is so dense, its the point, that is what the game is meant FOR, therefore that signals to me to just enjoy it as like, a movie or a short series but with breaks to fight stuff in it.

Elden Ring and other such games are the opposite, stories not the point, its just a framing device. the point of Elden Ring IS the combat, the mastery of its mechanics, the game itself. the journey being told is your own traversal through, with every loss, every struggle, every victory being something you own.

I personally would not like these two styles of game to be combined despite liking both, because the story-heavy game I just want to relax more and experience what the writers want to tell, while the harder game I don't want to be distracted from me playing and overcoming it with a story that'd make me want to skip the hard stuff to know what happens. they're different meals for different moods and cravings. and I can tell you there are many gamers who don't care about story at all and would outright skip dialogue at lightspeed to get back to the gameplay if they had to deal with long cutscenes- not all gamers are cut from the same cloth, and there are entire communities out there with different priorities and desires that make Soulslike appealing to them over other things. I can't speak for them of course, but its worth remembering how wide the world can be and how different what some peoples priorities are, just as your priorities are different from theirs, and thus if you want to understand a game like Elden Ring you have to put yourself in someone else's shoes if you don't like it yourself. and who knows? the new shoes you walk in might prove a good fit to put on for yourself sometimes if you've never tried them before.

[warty goblin]

This is where I'm pretty sure you're just a different breed, and that's okay! Bosses done well are meant to be the epitome of a game. A complex, possibly evolving fight that combines all the challenges you've faced into a climactic spectacle.

I get that's what they're supposed to feel like, but to me they just... don't. Or at least they do so rarely it's hard to be excited for them, since what I'll probably get is a gimmick or something where I have to fight it in some very specific way that probably isn't how I've liked playing so far.

I have a hunch that you play games more for story than the gameplay, which is okay, but it's usually the difference between liking the Souls games and not. If you're in it for the story, they're absolutely not for you.

The thing is, I don't really need or care about story in games all that much. Honestly I don't find games a very good medium for stories, when compared to books or movies. What I need is a hook, some reason that I should spend my precious 55 minutes of pre-work morning gaming time in this game. Story can be that hook, but long-winded cuscenes are as likely to turn me off as not, and a story-light or free game can absolutely grab me through gameplay.

I didn't find anything I could hook on to in Elden Ring. Keep in mind I hadn't played any of the Dark Souls games, so what I knew about the game is what the game told me. I'm also not very good at games (one of the great ironies of my life, I love all manner of games and am uniquely bad at most of them) and definitely not pre-good at Elden Ring. This makes things like rushing bosses for gear a decidedly bad idea, because until I got the hang of fighting normal dudes, bosses were definitely gonna wreck me. And again, the only things I know are what the game tells me*, I don't really like looking up walkthroughs and stuff - I'll do it if I get stuck on a puzzle or boss or whatever, but I don't game with the wiki open on my phone or anything.

So given this state of pristine ignorance and lack of skillz, why would I keep playing? There's no sense of progress, leveling up moves some stat an inscrutable amount, and the game itself gives no indication this changes. The gear I'm finding is boring, and clearing out a difficult group of enemies is utterly pointless because they just respawn. I have no visible impact on the world, the story is a direction on the map and a mess of proper nouns, and while I can make my peace with Soulsalike combat, I'm never gonna love it. Sorry, but what feels heavy and purposeful to others consistently reads as stiff and clumsy to me. I'm sure someone will explain how I'm wrong, but that's the honest truth of how it feels to me. Slow and awkward and clunky and bad.

I'm happy to believe that the game has all sorts of cool stuff eventually, somewhere. The problem was that none of it was where and when I was, and I had no idea how to find it or even if it existed. So if my morning options are badger away at this thing so I can advance one number that does something mostly imperceptible and maybe make it to a region with some different monsters I can pointlessly kill and pointlessly die to on my way to the next bonfire after that, or play anything else, why wouldn't I play anything else?


*yes there's the blood stains. These were all "finger but hole" and "jump off this ledge" in front of ledges that kill you. Guess how I know. Now guess how long I kept reading them.

[ArmyOfOptimists]

I really appreciate you taking the time to paint your impressions out like that, and especially that you managed to do it in a way that didn't blame the game. I can empathize with your frustrations and I've played similar games under that feeling, as well. Coming from playing the Souls games since the start, it's impossible for me to grasp how playing Elden Ring must be from a fresh standpoint.

Maybe give Armored Core 6 a try, if you haven't. It has a lot of the same DNA (arguably, Dark Souls was more "Medieval Armored Core" than the other way around), but it's done in a mission format that pushes you straight into the action, with no mission being more than about an hour long. The parts unlocking system also gives you much more of a feeling of increasing power and there's no stat-leveling anywhere. It could still beat you bloody, but they've done a fair bit of balancing since the release to tune down the worst of the roadblock bosses.

And I feel you on the messages. It's a shame that a cool, asynchronous cooperation tool was taken over by the laziest memes. "Try finger but hole" everywhere. Haven't heard that one before, guys.

[JellyPooga]

So given this state of pristine ignorance and lack of skillz, why would I keep playing?

I've never been good that good at games; I've traditionally played on easy/normal mode, gravitate toward games that are casual (e.g. Sims) or are forgiving in terms of time (e.g. turn based games) or consequence (e.g. 4X games rarely punish individual decisions or actions such that the game cannot be recovered). If my CRPGs has a turn-based mode or auto-pause function, you'd better believe I'm using it. I'd even use cheat codes to progress past areas I couldn't with skill. In short, I've always been a bit of a casual.

Dark Souls changed that.

Going into the game, I'd heard that it was good and that it was a challenge, but I knew little more. And it punished me. Over and again. There weren't any shortcuts (until later in the game). There weren't any cheat codes. There wasn't even a wiki or online tutorial that could really help me more than "git gud to progress". The game has a hard "you must be *this* good to progress" sign on the door and the bouncer wasn't taking any bribes. I'm not ashamed to say that it took me hours of gameplay to even get to Firelink Shrine...I didn't even get there on my first session. I had to go away and come back to the game another day just to get past the "tutorial mission".

I didn't find any of the rest of the game much easier. Every new area held a new and unexpected challenge, my skill as a player grew about as slowly as my stats did in-game. Most of the weapons and equipment I found were either unusable due to stats or so unfamiliar that I could not use them. I gave up on melee combat and spec'd into Sorcery (the not-so-secret easy-mode of the game) to carry me through much of the game, until the game forced me to git gud again and actually learn melee combat. Let me reiterate that...I thought I'd found an easy way to progress through the game and the game said "NO! You have to get better". So I did. I learned to parry and roll and that took me so far through the game until, again, the game said "NO! You have to get better", so I learned to use armour (which I'd previously forgone for the most part; I like agility builds in games, as a rule). Each time, the game would punish me for sitting on my laurels and dangle yet another option or opportunity to learn another facet of the game and I snatched at them, one by one; miracles, pyromancy, covenants, secret areas to explore, new upgrades to be found...piece by piece the game coaxed me into learning about itself, not only in terms of the gameplay mechanics, but the lore as well.

Once I was comfortable enough to actually look up from the controller and see the game for what it was, all I saw was how beautifully crafted it is in both visual impact and in its subtlety of storytelling. Does the game slap you with a step-by-step story of a hero's rise to power, with deeds of heroic prowess and moral good? No. You're just some scrub undead struggling to survive in a world imploding in on itself, fighting sewer dragons, swamp leeches and mindless zombies that were once people that have lost their way through despair and ennui after a thousand pointless deaths, destined to die a thousand more, food only for the endless demons that infest the underbelly of the world. But within that, there are tales of hope, despair and futility, of betrayal and vengeance, of loyalty and of greed...which includes your own actions. If the game had not been so punishing or as circumspect, these themes and stories would have meant less; I'd have looked less closely and given little care.

All the while this is happening, I'm finding other aspects of the game that I enjoy; the stylistic choices, the variety of weaponry and magics that I can employ...I'm discovering things not only about the game, but about myself in the process. Do I feel like donning my plate armour and swinging for the sun with a big honking zweihander or am I going to dual wield rapiers to parry and riposte my way to success? The choice is entirely mine because every stage of the game and every boss can be dealt with with any style of game play...but only if you're good enough! There's a reason that the term "Fashion Souls" exists and it's because yes, some gear is better than others and some tactics will work better than others in certain areas, but in truth none of it matters; it's the player behind the character is all that counts at the end of the day.

Dark Souls is a crucible. It changed my outlook on how I play games, both old and new, as well as how I look at storytelling, character motivations and more. Part of the enjoyment of the game for me, is in meeting the challenge, not giving up, overcoming it and learning that the challenge wasn't some horrible monster but your own ability (or lack thereof) to defeat it. The first (and only!) time I beat the game was by grinding souls until I was so over-levelled I couldn't help but win. Legit (if lengthy) method to beat the game, but not an efficient one! So the game is still telling me to get better and improve my skills, to delve a little deeper, learn another trick, until I can beat the game at a lower level or with a different weapon or style or in a different way...and I like that it continues to present me with that challenge in a way that no other game ever really has. The harder the challenge the sweeter the reward and Dark Souls has such a high ceiling for that.

[earthseawizard]

I felt the same about Dark Souls and Bloodborne (regarding gameplay, I thought they looked awesome).

When Elden Ring came around, as a long time fan of George R.R. Martin, Berserk and Princess Mononoke (these are some of the inspirations, not simply "grimdark" as you say), I couldn't help but oogle at the previews. And I knew all my friends were going to play so I gave it a shot. After pushing through for a few hours everything clicked. The game tells a narrative through the environment. The UI and various systems are immensely simple yet nuanced. The visuals are stunning and frankly unique. The reward of pushing through and conquering areas is unlike anything most games can offer. And co-op is insanely fun.

[Ionathus]

From the perspective of a player, the game might not be for everyone. From the perspective of someone who wants to study game design...FromSoft are an incredibly influential company, and not being familiar with their works is kind of like being a film director who's never seen a David Lynch or Quentin Tarantino film.

Likewise, to circle back around to my query about coherent criticisms, being able to articulate exactly what you like and don't like about a game is an important exercise for game design. You can't simply say "it's bad" or "it's good" if you want to be taken seriously (and get graded well).

You don't need to go full on "we don't use the word graphics because it's imprecise" in casual conversation (though your teachers will probably give you that speech at some point), but you do need to be able to separate "design I don't like" from "design that is objectively flawed".

Seconding this. Souls-likes are incredibly influential, and for good reason. They might not be everyone's cup of tea, but you definitely need to be able to understand why they appeal to people if you want to be a game designer yourself.

Which, to your credit, is probably why you made this post in the first place

My advice is to keep playing. If you're having trouble with a certain area, go to a different one! It's open world for a reason, and that freedom helps remove a lot of the frustration of earlier Souls games. This is definitely a game where you have to be resourceful and carefully study the enemies and come up with a plan to beat them. And it will take effort and a grind to get through. If that's truly not to your tastes you don't have to keep playing. But understanding the challenge and reward of this style of game is pretty important if you want to design games one day.