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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    I have a player looking to play a Totem Druid (bear) but also wants to take Frozen Wild Shape and Aberration Wild Shape to augment his variety. I'm thinking RAW that both feats would net him nothing as they are dependent on the source of the wild shape ability (which says he can turn into a bear, a dire bear, and a celestial/fiendish bear and that"s it). Totem druids don't have size or HD restrictions tied into their ability like a normal druid does.

    Am I reading this correctly?

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    I think the totem shape feature is just kind of broken no matter how you parse it: RAI already presents some questions (there is no such thing as a creature just called 'horse', for one - do both light and heavy horses count? what about warhorses? What about MM2's Legendary Horse?), but RAW I actually see the argument that size and HD limits remain - meaning that a lot of totem druids can't use totem shape when they first get it.

    Ultimately, I think the answer is going to depend on how you want to fix the ability in the first place, and "You keep size and HD limits for everything but your totem form" is as fine a solution as any and decently RAW-compliant.

    Though you could also make the argument that since Frozen and Aberration Wild Shape both require the 'wild shape ability', a Totem Druid doesn't actually qualify, since those have a similar but differently-named ability. The fact that it functions identically is irrelevant: what matters is the name.
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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by tuberov View Post
    I have a player looking to play a Totem Druid (bear) but also wants to take Frozen Wild Shape and Aberration Wild Shape to augment his variety. I'm thinking RAW that both feats would net him nothing as they are dependent on the source of the wild shape ability (which says he can turn into a bear, a dire bear, and a celestial/fiendish bear and that"s it). Totem druids don't have size or HD restrictions tied into their ability like a normal druid does.

    Am I reading this correctly?
    In my reading, the bear totem should allow you to turn into multiple types of bear (black, brown, polar, dire polar), since it doesn't specify just one type of bear. And, with this in mind, it would also make sense for the HD limit to be inherited from wild shape. Does this prevent you from accessing your class features at the level you initially gain them? Sure, but a bear totem druid should be no stranger to that, since bear companions aren't available at level 1 either, are they? I feel like it's perfectly fair to say "It's written that way for the benefit of snake and eagle totems, and other totems have to wait."

    (Personally, I would be willing to reskin a different animal's statblock as a bear cub to make it available at level 1, but I don't think you need to do that.)

    I think it's reasonable to rule either way in regards to whether wild shape feats do or don't override the "bears only" restriction, but I do think that regardless of which road you take, Frozen Wild Shape should at least give you access to creatures that have the cold subtype and are also bears (i.e. urskan). Ditto for Aberration Wild Shape with aberrations that are also bears—I don't know of any ab-bear-rations off the top of my head, but I'm sure it matters for snake totem druids at the very least.
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2024-02-20 at 10:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by tuberov View Post
    Totem druids don't have size or HD restrictions tied into their ability like a normal druid does.
    Yes it does.

    Totem shape uses the same rules as wild shape, although a druid can only take the form of her totem animal.
    It uses the same rules and does not provide an exception allowing you to bypass the restrictions.

    As for incorporating variant classes, no ifs ands or buts you need to homebrew compatibility, period. Rules variants aren't guaranteed to be 100% compatible with existing rules. What makes people happy is the extra effort put in to make it more seamless. Troacctid's reasonable rule is definitely a good one and keeps the theme of the class variant. Otherwise why not play normal druid outside of the free natural spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    RAI already presents some questions (there is no such thing as a creature just called 'horse', for one - do both light and heavy horses count? what about warhorses? What about MM2's Legendary Horse?)
    The Druid's Animal Companion feature calls it a horse (light or heavy). It's a horse, regardless of the light or heavy designation. As for legendary animals, they are as different from the normal creatures as a dire version is and the totem shape ability definitely makes a distinction between the two. Would be a nice high level feat or epic progression thing though.

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    It uses the same rules and does not provide an exception allowing you to bypass the restrictions.
    This.

    As for the feats, it's still treated as wild shape, seems fine to me. If anything, you could just add some sort of "level limit" to them (frozen requires a base fort save +6, but aberration can be taken at level 1 if you have wild shape...) if you're not comfortable w/ them being available as early as they are. Like a knowledge nature skill ranks requirement or something, so you still can't get it before level 5+.
    Totem Shape is already weaker than normal wild shape in the long run, not sure why it needs to be nerfed even more out of taking WS feats other druids can.

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    Totem Shape is already weaker than normal wild shape in the long run, not sure why it needs to be nerfed even more out of taking WS feats other druids can.
    That's really just a problem with variant rules in general. Non-variant content assumes you use non-variant content. Thus full support requires homebrew to fill in the gaps.

    Totem druid does have the neat ability to totem shape at level 1 while normal druid has to wait for level 5. Giving up later benefits for earlier access to a fun mechanic is a valid trade off.
    Last edited by Darg; 2024-02-21 at 12:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Ditto for Aberration Wild Shape with aberrations that are also bears—I don't know of any ab-bear-rations off the top of my head
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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    Totem Shape is already weaker than normal wild shape in the long run, not sure why it needs to be nerfed even more out of taking WS feats other druids can.
    But the reason it's weaker is because you get a crappy selection of forms. As far as I can tell, if you allowed free access to dragon forms or whatever, then this is a strict improvement in terms of accessing those forms. You get a free natural spell along with more uses per day, and the limits on dragon usage would be adopted right from wild shape classic. You may note that this is only accessible at level 12, so you still get kinda screwed on the exchange if you have to play through those solo bear levels, but then you consider aberration wild shape. You get wild shape right away, so your feat sequence can literally be aberration blood at first, free natural spell at second, and aberration wild shape at third. I have, I will note, never actually thought about what it looks like when you try to use aberration forms, spellcasting and all, at third level, but it's probably good? The more pertinent question is how cleanly those forms substitute for animal forms at level six, a different question that I have never asked, but, again, it seems quite strong.

    Suffice to say, there are definitely balance reasons to think this is a problem, even relative to druid classic. Hard to say exactly how it would play out, with the early game being a bit mysterious but obviously strong, and the late game having extra uses and a free feat fighting against the loss of classic wild shape forms, but my instinct is to give it to the totem druid at all levels. If you're paying two feats to pretend to be a fancy aberration, with the enhance wild shape cost forcing a meaningful commitment to whatever plan you embark upon, then I'm a bit skeptical you're feeling the loss of dire tortoise all that much. The bonus feat seems more useful.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2024-02-21 at 03:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Yes it does.
    No, it doesn't. It's not Wild Shape, it's Totem Shape, and while it uses Wild Shape's "rules" (which are just a variation on the Alternate Form rules, and which do NOT mention size at all, as the available sizes for a fifth level druid are listed before the rules are explained because size was a class feature unrelated to the rules of Wild Shape in and of itself) the size limitations are arbitrarily applied by the class that Wild Shape comes from, which, as this class has no such limitations, means you can be a bear from the beginning.

    Example: the Abolisher prestige class grants you Wild Shape, and notes that unlike the druid class you are limited to medium sized animals. Soft evidence, but mentioned for completeness' sake.

    Example: Daggerspell Shaper grants Wild Shape, and notes its granted sizes before bringing up how it stacks with druid, explicitly mentioning that it does not increase granted sizes even though it advances everything else. This can be taken either way, but given the other examples this just reads like further proof that size limits and the class feature itself are not intertwined.

    Example: Lion of Talisid does just like the above and, despite having NO special rules ("This works exactly as the druid's wild shape ability.") nonetheless needed to call out which sizes were being made available to the player, further cementing the association between available size categories and class rather than it being an expected default for the class feature in and of itself.

    Example: Vermin Keeper grants the character the ability to "use his wild shape ability to assume a vermin form" and then notes the size limitations (only small), which are different from those of Wild Shape's other forms and scale at a different rate despite quite literally being Wild Shape.

    Example: Animal Lord grants "lesser wild shape" which, amusingly, has no size reference at all, just like Totem Shape. Instead it notes that you acquire the form(s) of the Animal Lord's chosen animal group, again like Totem Shape, and even more directly compares itself to "the druid's wild shape". Go look it up, try to figure out how you're turning into a bear if you can't access large sizes from the start. Honestly, the other examples are pretty much just filler, this one is quite definitively proof that Wild Shape is not intrinsically small/medium by default, but I'm leaving them here because I want to be thorough. Size limits are ALWAYS called out when present, and are only absent in cases where the sizes are quite variable but the animal list is predefined. Without a limit being externally imposed Wild Shape is just Alternate Form with slightly different rules (or Polymorph or whatever it was they decided upon later in the game's life, I don't bother with that nonsense).

    Anyway, nowhere in the Totem Druid's text or table do you find size limitations. As size limits were noted for nearly every instance of Wild Shape I bothered to check, it's safe to say that this means there are NO limits, and so you can just go have fun tromping around as a whatever-the-heck kind of animal you've chosen, which makes sense since you get Totem Shape at level 1 and there'd be literally zero reason for that in several cases since it's not Wild Shape and can't fuel Wild feats or benefit from any external support, so the uses per day would just sit there and taunt you until you hit level 8 if you chose tigers or bears or jabberwocks or whatever, which is simply ridiculous. I realize that "ridiculous" doesn't prevent something from being a rule, of course, but I feel it needs to be said, if only to indicate designer intent.



    As for all other questions regarding Totem Shape: it is not Wild Shape. They are different class features entirely. It can't use Wild feats, period, it does not qualify you for prestige classes, and Natural Spell does not apply to it unless I missed something in the very brief writeup the class received. It's stronger than Wild Shape early on and notably weaker later, but for most games that's probably just fine. You have zero rules support for it and an optimized druid wouldn't be caught dead with it, but optimizing druid is kind of silly anyway, so go enjoy being a tiger man with a tiger pet and maul some faces. It's a silly class variant that doesn't care about being balanced and I, personally, can respect that. Any support will 100% be reliant on your DM saying "Yeah, that seems reasonable." when you pitch your idea to him.

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by thatothersting View Post
    No, it doesn't. It's not Wild Shape, it's Totem Shape, and while it uses Wild Shape's "rules" (which are just a variation on the Alternate Form rules, and which do NOT mention size at all, as the available sizes for a fifth level druid are listed before the rules are explained because size was a class feature unrelated to the rules of Wild Shape in and of itself) the size limitations are arbitrarily applied by the class that Wild Shape comes from, which, as this class has no such limitations, means you can be a bear from the beginning.

    Example: the Abolisher prestige class grants you Wild Shape, and notes that unlike the druid class you are limited to medium sized animals. Soft evidence, but mentioned for completeness' sake.

    Example: Daggerspell Shaper grants Wild Shape, and notes its granted sizes before bringing up how it stacks with druid, explicitly mentioning that it does not increase granted sizes even though it advances everything else. This can be taken either way, but given the other examples this just reads like further proof that size limits and the class feature itself are not intertwined.

    Example: Lion of Talisid does just like the above and, despite having NO special rules ("This works exactly as the druid's wild shape ability.") nonetheless needed to call out which sizes were being made available to the player, further cementing the association between available size categories and class rather than it being an expected default for the class feature in and of itself.

    Example: Vermin Keeper grants the character the ability to "use his wild shape ability to assume a vermin form" and then notes the size limitations (only small), which are different from those of Wild Shape's other forms and scale at a different rate despite quite literally being Wild Shape.

    Example: Animal Lord grants "lesser wild shape" which, amusingly, has no size reference at all, just like Totem Shape. Instead it notes that you acquire the form(s) of the Animal Lord's chosen animal group, again like Totem Shape, and even more directly compares itself to "the druid's wild shape". Go look it up, try to figure out how you're turning into a bear if you can't access large sizes from the start. Honestly, the other examples are pretty much just filler, this one is quite definitively proof that Wild Shape is not intrinsically small/medium by default, but I'm leaving them here because I want to be thorough. Size limits are ALWAYS called out when present, and are only absent in cases where the sizes are quite variable but the animal list is predefined. Without a limit being externally imposed Wild Shape is just Alternate Form with slightly different rules (or Polymorph or whatever it was they decided upon later in the game's life, I don't bother with that nonsense).

    Anyway, nowhere in the Totem Druid's text or table do you find size limitations. As size limits were noted for nearly every instance of Wild Shape I bothered to check, it's safe to say that this means there are NO limits, and so you can just go have fun tromping around as a whatever-the-heck kind of animal you've chosen, which makes sense since you get Totem Shape at level 1 and there'd be literally zero reason for that in several cases since it's not Wild Shape and can't fuel Wild feats or benefit from any external support, so the uses per day would just sit there and taunt you until you hit level 8 if you chose tigers or bears or jabberwocks or whatever, which is simply ridiculous. I realize that "ridiculous" doesn't prevent something from being a rule, of course, but I feel it needs to be said, if only to indicate designer intent.



    As for all other questions regarding Totem Shape: it is not Wild Shape. They are different class features entirely. It can't use Wild feats, period, it does not qualify you for prestige classes, and Natural Spell does not apply to it unless I missed something in the very brief writeup the class received. It's stronger than Wild Shape early on and notably weaker later, but for most games that's probably just fine. You have zero rules support for it and an optimized druid wouldn't be caught dead with it, but optimizing druid is kind of silly anyway, so go enjoy being a tiger man with a tiger pet and maul some faces. It's a silly class variant that doesn't care about being balanced and I, personally, can respect that. Any support will 100% be reliant on your DM saying "Yeah, that seems reasonable." when you pitch your idea to him.
    Totem shape takes precedence where the rules between the two abilities conflict. However, you are still subject to the HD/druid level limitation. The lowest HD bear I know of is a 3HD black bear, thus you can't totem shape into a black bear until level 3. Otherwise, what's preventing you from simply totem shaping into a legendary bear at level 1 and ruining the game for everyone else?

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Totem shape takes precedence where the rules between the two abilities conflict. However, you are still subject to the HD/druid level limitation. The lowest HD bear I know of is a 3HD black bear, thus you can't totem shape into a black bear until level 3. Otherwise, what's preventing you from simply totem shaping into a legendary bear at level 1 and ruining the game for everyone else?
    You do seem to be correct on the specifics with any iteration of Wild Shape. Hit die limits should still apply! The Bear Warrior, which is closest to the Totem Druid in its rules, instead uses a white list of options and notes the particular levels they become available at, which means that even this isn't TRULY set in stone, but obviously that's a specific case and TD lacks the level of detail it should've gotten in its write-up. The class feature is, in fact, literally useless for at least two levels for half of all players who receive it... oh well! Probably not the first time that's happened, I suppose. The size limits are still at least a non-issue, which means the snakey boys can enjoy being huge vipers at level 6. Nice enough if the DM will let them get their venom milked, but irrelevant here.

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by thatothersting View Post
    You do seem to be correct on the specifics with any iteration of Wild Shape. Hit die limits should still apply! The Bear Warrior, which is closest to the Totem Druid in its rules, instead uses a white list of options and notes the particular levels they become available at, which means that even this isn't TRULY set in stone, but obviously that's a specific case and TD lacks the level of detail it should've gotten in its write-up. The class feature is, in fact, literally useless for at least two levels for half of all players who receive it... oh well! Probably not the first time that's happened, I suppose. The size limits are still at least a non-issue, which means the snakey boys can enjoy being huge vipers at level 6. Nice enough if the DM will let them get their venom milked, but irrelevant here.
    Where are you seeing you can ignore the size restrictions, you have yet to make that clear in any way? I see that nowhere inside of totem shape; It says 'Totem shape uses the same rules as wild shape, although a druid can only take the form of her totem animal.' That clearly states the only two changes are you can start totem shaping at level 1 and you can only totem shape into your totem animal. Since plants and elementals aren't your totem animals they get removed for the wild shape rules but you still have to follow the size and HD limitations. The only thing unclear about this is do legendary versions of your animals qualify as your animal or is that a left out designation similar to how Dire is differentiated from standard animal inside the ability.
    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    This.

    As for the feats, it's still treated as wild shape, seems fine to me. If anything, you could just add some sort of "level limit" to them (frozen requires a base fort save +6, but aberration can be taken at level 1 if you have wild shape...) if you're not comfortable w/ them being available as early as they are. Like a knowledge nature skill ranks requirement or something, so you still can't get it before level 5+.
    Totem Shape is already weaker than normal wild shape in the long run, not sure why it needs to be nerfed even more out of taking WS feats other druids can.
    You could always take a pointer from 3E and require knowledge (Dungeoneering) ranks for your choices of aberrant forms.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    But the reason it's weaker is because you get a crappy selection of forms. As far as I can tell, if you allowed free access to dragon forms or whatever, then this is a strict improvement in terms of accessing those forms. You get a free natural spell along with more uses per day, and the limits on dragon usage would be adopted right from wild shape classic. You may note that this is only accessible at level 12, so you still get kinda screwed on the exchange if you have to play through those solo bear levels, but then you consider aberration wild shape. You get wild shape right away, so your feat sequence can literally be aberration blood at first, free natural spell at second, and aberration wild shape at third. I have, I will note, never actually thought about what it looks like when you try to use aberration forms, spellcasting and all, at third level, but it's probably good? The more pertinent question is how cleanly those forms substitute for animal forms at level six, a different question that I have never asked, but, again, it seems quite strong.

    Suffice to say, there are definitely balance reasons to think this is a problem, even relative to druid classic. Hard to say exactly how it would play out, with the early game being a bit mysterious but obviously strong, and the late game having extra uses and a free feat fighting against the loss of classic wild shape forms, but my instinct is to give it to the totem druid at all levels. If you're paying two feats to pretend to be a fancy aberration, with the enhance wild shape cost forcing a meaningful commitment to whatever plan you embark upon, then I'm a bit skeptical you're feeling the loss of dire tortoise all that much. The bonus feat seems more useful.
    Over all I think Aberration Wild Shape is the only big question here, Exalted and Frozen both require you to be ~9th level to take and dragon requires you to be twelfth. I don't see any reason to restrict the use of those three feats unless you are just trying to really nerf druid in general.

    Aberration Wild Shape can potentially be taken at first level if you are human or strongheart halfling, otherwise at 3rd level so the only area you have more power from wild shape is from level 1-6th, honestly for most of the totem variants can't even totem shape until 8th level or only have one or two forms they can take so without Aberration Wild Shape they potentially can't wild shape until well past normal druids...

    Ape: Ape/Dire Ape 8th level (Legendary Ape 13?)
    Bear: Black Bear 3rd, Brown Bear Brown/Polar Bear 6th, Dire Bear 12th, Dire Polar 18th (Legendary Bear 20?)
    Eagle: Eagle 1st, Dire Eagle 8th (Legendary Eagle 12?)
    Horse: Donkey/Pony 2nd? Heavy/Light/Valenar Horse 8th (Mule 8th?), Dire Horse 10th (Legendary Horse 18?; there are also quite a few variants in CoV that might be up for grabs)
    Shark: Medium Shark 3rd, large shark 8th, Huge Shark 15th, Dire Shark 18th
    Snake: small sea snake/Small Viper/two headed adder 1st, glacier snake/medium sea snake/medium viper/sewerm 2nd, constrictor/dung snake/whip snake 3rd, reed snake/tiny sea snake/tiny viper 11th, huge sea snake/huge viper/winged viper 8th, Dire snake/Giant Constrictor/Huge Sea Snake/Huge Viper 15 (Legendary Snake 16?)
    Tiger: Red tiger/Tiger 8th, Dire Tiger 16th
    Wolf: Wolf 2nd, Dire Wolf 8th (Legendary Wolf 14?)

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    Over all I think Aberration Wild Shape is the only big question here, Exalted and Frozen both require you to be ~9th level to take and dragon requires you to be twelfth. I don't see any reason to restrict the use of those three feats unless you are just trying to really nerf druid in general.

    Aberration Wild Shape can potentially be taken at first level if you are human or strongheart halfling, otherwise at 3rd level so the only area you have more power from wild shape is from level 1-6th, honestly for most of the totem variants can't even totem shape until 8th level or only have one or two forms they can take so without Aberration Wild Shape they potentially can't wild shape until well past normal druids...
    A core issue here is that totem druid has benefits. Specifically, a free feat and extra uses/day. If you have access to aberration or dragon forms, especially aberrations, I'm inclined to say this is better than what you lose. Which means that, in the level range where you have access to the ability, this setup is outright better than standard druid. Granted, it's not by a ton, and it's not like the loss of standard forms is nothing, but making druids stronger is not necessarily the best thing. I would definitely agree that exalted and frozen aren't a big deal. Frozen cause it's doing nothing of interest until 15th anyway, and exalted because a lot of the power is in enhanced regular forms, but both aberration and dragon are arguably stronger setups. Dragon more questionably, both due to the level requirement and the fact that you have more of a desire for basic forms with that feat.

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    A core issue here is that totem druid has benefits. Specifically, a free feat and extra uses/day. If you have access to aberration or dragon forms, especially aberrations, I'm inclined to say this is better than what you lose. Which means that, in the level range where you have access to the ability, this setup is outright better than standard druid. Granted, it's not by a ton, and it's not like the loss of standard forms is nothing, but making druids stronger is not necessarily the best thing. I would definitely agree that exalted and frozen aren't a big deal. Frozen cause it's doing nothing of interest until 15th anyway, and exalted because a lot of the power is in enhanced regular forms, but both aberration and dragon are arguably stronger setups. Dragon more questionably, both due to the level requirement and the fact that you have more of a desire for basic forms with that feat.
    Sorry I don't see at all an argument that Dragon Wild Shape is more powerful when playing a Totem Druid than a standard Druid. Totem Shape doesn't let Totem Druids take the feat any earlier than a standard druid could take it and while Totem Druid does get more uses per day in my experience you don't switch forms often enough for it to really matter once you hit ~7th level.

    The only place I really see a power difference is level 5 and under. Druids get wild shape light with Aspect of the Wolf at level 1, so the question is are there any forms more powerful than a wolf that are small-medium with 5 or less HD. Just looking at the monster manual I already see Skum (2HD), Grick (2 HD), Choker (3HD), Gibbering Mouther (4HD), Ettercap (5HD) and Rust Monster (5 HD). At 5 hd a rust monster is only more powerful than a standard druid who has some need of the rust ability so that is really situationally better. Even still I am not seeing anything crazy enough here that I wouldn't allow this in a high powered game. In a standard game would just require something like Knowledge (dungeoneering) 8 for Aberration Wild Shape and call it a day.

    In general I believe by level 12 totem druid is strictly worse than standard druid and for most of the totems its just strictly worse than standard druid. Seriously bear, eagle, and snake are the only totems that give you a benefit over standard druid (ignoring a custom versions) and even then you only get a benefit up until somewhere around level 5-9.
    If I were starting a game at level 5 or above trading all the variety of forms for free Nature Spell doesn't seem like a good trade to me.

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    To be fair, Totem animal companion doesn't say you don't start with your totem animal as a companion. So even if you can't wild shape right away you do get the trade off of having a strong companion earlier as compensation.

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    To be fair, Totem animal companion doesn't say you don't start with your totem animal as a companion. So even if you can't wild shape right away you do get the trade off of having a strong companion earlier as compensation.
    It doesn't need to, that's not how the rules work it only needs to tell you how it is different from the rule which it is modifying. Which it does a fine job of doing, IE you can only choose your totem animal or its dire versions as an animal companion and you get +2 to your druid level for this class feature.

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    It doesn't need to, that's not how the rules work it only needs to tell you how it is different from the rule which it is modifying. Which it does a fine job of doing, IE you can only choose your totem animal or its dire versions as an animal companion and you get +2 to your druid level for this class feature.
    It's worse than that, totem druid doesn't give you an animal companion by RAW.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    It's worse than that, totem druid doesn't give you an animal companion by RAW.
    Just because you say by RAW doesn't make it true, you have now claimed that Totem Animal Companion ignores level requirements of the animal companion and that it does give you an animal companion. I guess you are just throwing things at the wall and seeing if anything sticks?

    This is straight forward, as I said previously it only needs to tell you how it is modifying the original ability/rule, it doesn't need to expressly tell you you get an animal companion as that is explained in the original rule it is also obvious from reading the Totem Animal Companion ability that this is giving you an animal companion...

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    Default Re: Totem Druid and Wild Shape Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    Just because you say by RAW doesn't make it true, you have now claimed that Totem Animal Companion ignores level requirements of the animal companion and that it does give you an animal companion. I guess you are just throwing things at the wall and seeing if anything sticks?

    This is straight forward, as I said previously it only needs to tell you how it is modifying the original ability/rule, it doesn't need to expressly tell you you get an animal companion as that is explained in the original rule it is also obvious from reading the Totem Animal Companion ability that this is giving you an animal companion...
    You're making as much of an assumption as I have. Where does it say that Totem Animal Companion = Animal Companion? Where does it say that it lets you have a companion?

    Totem Animal Companion (Ex): The totem druid can only choose her totem animal (or its dire form) as her animal companion... Her animal companion gains special abilities as if the totem druid was two levels higher. The totem druid counts as two levels higher for purposes of determining whether or not she can choose a dire animal as her alternative animal companion.
    The feature says 3 things: You're limited in your selection of companions to your totem animal type, your companion gains special abilities as if you were two druid levels higher, and you count as two levels higher for choosing dire animals only. Of course, for the feature to work as probably intended we must assume that the totem animal companion ability is in addition to the normal ability rather than outright replacing it unlike totem shape does with wild shape right after (hence my earlier comment pointing out the dysfunction).

    If as you say we must make the assumption that totem animal companion is telling you what has changed, then it is modifying the lists of animals you can select. "A druid may begin play with an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf." The original ability is giving you explicit permission to start play with an animal selected from the list. Thus it is the player's discretion to start with a companion or not. Totem animal companion does not take away that permission while limiting you to your totem animal. This causes conflict. What has priority: the player's right to a companion or being limited to a list?

    You might say that "may" could also mean "might" and you'd be right. Skunked words are terrible, but at the same time WotC had been pretty consistent with the use of "may" in their rules for quite some time. So really it comes down to poor editing on the part of Dragon. Personally, I take any variant rules with a large helping of salt because they are never guaranteed to fit within the existing rules structure as is. It's really not hard to come up with new creatures with "runt" in the name to allow totem druid full use of their abilities from level 1.

    Edit: I do also want to point out that if limiting the player is more important than their right, some animals like the ape are only available for one level before their dire form is able to be chosen.
    Last edited by Darg; 2024-03-02 at 01:26 AM.

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