[3.PF] Silly PO Idea: "When all you have is a Fireball..."

[Ignimortis]

A480: This seems more suited for a thread like "optimize a PF fire blaster", really. It's a decent combo, doesn't appear to be overpowered, and there's more tricks you can add to it.

What you appear to be doing wrong is that you can't do this trick "circa 7 times per day" because you have only four L3 spells per day.

Probably the right call to make this a thread instead, yes. Kind of curious what else I can do with that aside from the obvious "stack as many +0 and + 1 metamagics onto Fireball as one can".

The initial idea goes like this:

Base considerations: PF1, 3.5 content usually allowed, 3.5 skill reqs for feats/prestiges/etc reduced by 3 to account for PF changes. PB20 (PF version, starts at 10 for every stat). Not much 3PP (yet), although PoW gets a pass because I usually play PoW classes.

Arcanist (Peri-Blooded Aasimar) - start with 18 INT, 16 CHA. Alternate racial trait (Crusading Magic, +2 to overcome SR)
Traits: Magical Lineage (Fireball) - treat total spell level sum of metamagic-adjusted spell as 1 lower, to a minimum of +0.

Second trait not important right now, might also be something useful? Metamagic Master (same as Magical Lineage, but Regional instead of Magic so can stack) seems like overkill to an extent. Maybe I'll use it to shore up my non-existent social skill selection - gotta make use of that 16 CHA and all.

Arcanist Exploit @ level 1: School Understanding (Evocation (Admixture)) - lets me change the element of any elemental (acid/cold/fire/electricity) damage spell to another of the four 3+CHA mod times per day.
Feat @ level 1: Spell Focus (evocation) +1 DC to evoc
Arcanist Exploit @ level 3: Metamagic Knowledge (Empower Spell) - x1.5 damage for affected spell, initially +2 spell levels
Feat @ level 3: Greater Spell Focus (evocation) +1 more DC to evoc
Arcanist Exploit @ level 5: Metamagic Knowledge (Sculpt Spell) - change area to a variety of shapes, initially +1 spell level
Feat @ level 5: Spell Specialization (Scorching Ray or something other Evocation at that point, changes to Fireball at level 6) - treat CL as 2 higher for one spell, can swap the spell every even level
Arcanist Exploit @ level 7: Metamagic Knowledge (Intensified Spell) - damage cap of die/level spells raised by 5, initially +1 spell level
Feat @ level 7: Arcane Thesis (fireball) - +2 CL to fireball, treats every metamagic applied to the spell as 1 spell level lower to a minimum of +0.

At which point, if I'm getting everything right, I can toss an Empowered Sculpted Intensified Fireball (possibly Acidball/Frostball/Shockball, Admixture works circa 7 times per day by now) at CL 11 for a total of 11d6 x 1.5 in a rather configurable area of effect and at a decent DC, while still using 3rd-level spell slots for it.

I do indeed only have 4 level 3 slots for that, but I'm not staying level 7 forever either. Searing Spell sounds like a decent idea, but I'm also thinking that Admixture should bail me out when the target's immune or resistant to fire.

Now, this morning I've also gotten an idea - if I can find a way to get Consecrate onto my spell list, I could grab Consecrated Spell (and since the vast majority of enemies tend to be evil, that's basically 80% Maximize Spell, but for 1 less spell level adjustment).

Any other stuff to be aware of? I wonder if I can bypass Evasion (and whether it's even worthwhile, since Evasion is usually a PC class thing, not a monster thing).

[Kurald Galain]

I'd go with something like this,

Trait: Magical Knack (+1 caster level if multiclassed), Magical Lineage (as above)
Race: Gnome (+1 caster level on fire spells)

1. Wizard (admixture evoker), change energy type (3+INT)/d, add half level to damage, item bond (+1 top level spell per day); Spell Focus
2. Sorcerer (tattooed; orc bloodline), bonus feat: Varisian Tattoo (+1 CL on evocation spells); +1 damage per die; familiar
3. All other levels in Wizard. Burning Amplification (fire spells set their target on fire)
4. -
5. Flumefire Rage (+1 damage per die)
6. Spell Specialization: Fireball; fireball damage 10d6+22
7. Empower Spell
8. fireball damage (10d6)*1.5+33
9. Intensify Spell
10. fireball damage (14d6)*1.5+46
11. Heighten Spell, Preferred Spell (spontaneously replace any other prepared spell by Fireball)
12. trade your fireballs for Fire Snake, which has a damage cap of 15d6 (20d6 if intensified) and a free "sculpt" effect.
13. Quicken Spell
14. -
15. Spell Perfection (apply Quicken Spell for free and doubles the effect of Spell Focus)

So basically, Quickened Intensified Fire Snake (20d6+47) followed by Empowered Intensified Fire Snake (30d6+67) and the targets are on fire. Yes, that's a pretty big nuke.

Not silly at all, by the way. I've played a fire-based sorcerer like this up to level 16, as well as a cold-based wizard using Admixture + Scorching Ray + sneak attack from Arcane Trickster (note that in PF you can enter that with only one lost spellcasting level), and both were highly effective at their jobs. Of course, both had numerous other options when blasting didn't work, such as Dimension Door (to move melee allies into position), Resilient Sphere, or plain old Haste.

[Eldonauran]

Let's not forget to use Magical Trick (Fireball).

[Ignimortis]

I'd go with something like this,

Trait: Magical Knack (+1 caster level if multiclassed), Magical Lineage (as above)
Race: Gnome (+1 caster level on fire spells)

1. Wizard (admixture evoker), change energy type (3+INT)/d, add half level to damage, item bond (+1 top level spell per day); Spell Focus
2. Sorcerer (tattooed; orc bloodline), bonus feat: Varisian Tattoo (+1 CL on evocation spells); +1 damage per die; familiar
3. All other levels in Wizard. Burning Amplification (fire spells set their target on fire)
4. -
5. Flumefire Rage (+1 damage per die)
6. Spell Specialization: Fireball; fireball damage 10d6+22
7. Empower Spell
8. fireball damage (10d6)*1.5+33
9. Intensify Spell
10. fireball damage (14d6)*1.5+46
11. Heighten Spell, Preferred Spell (spontaneously replace any other prepared spell by Fireball)
12. trade your fireballs for Fire Snake, which has a damage cap of 15d6 (20d6 if intensified) and a free "sculpt" effect.
13. Quicken Spell
14. -
15. Spell Perfection (apply Quicken Spell for free and doubles the effect of Spell Focus)

So basically, Quickened Intensified Fire Snake (20d6+47) followed by Empowered Intensified Fire Snake (30d6+67) and the targets are on fire. Yes, that's a pretty big nuke.

Not silly at all, by the way. I've played a fire-based sorcerer like this up to level 16, as well as a cold-based wizard using Admixture + Scorching Ray + sneak attack from Arcane Trickster (note that in PF you can enter that with only one lost spellcasting level), and both were highly effective at their jobs. Of course, both had numerous other options when blasting didn't work, such as Dimension Door (to move melee allies into position), Resilient Sphere, or plain old Haste.

Hmmm. Wizard is a bit too Wizard for my tastes (don't like strict prepared casters much), and this tends to squash on Sorcerer dips too (due to Arcanist's delayed progression, it's basically already like taking one other level). I think there's some way to grab a bloodline arcana out of class, though... Oh yeah, Blood Arcanist could work. I don't expect to ever reach level 20 (so Magical Supremacy is out), but high tens are quite possible and I can get enough exploits through later feats, I suppose.

Flumefire Rage seems interesting and achievable even with noticeable alterations to the build, although passing a DC18 save on a caster might be troublesome earlier on.

Is making targets catch fire all that good? I thought it deals just 1d6 fire damage per round, which is decent-ish at lower levels, but unlikely to do much by level 6, much less 10+. Sure, it's free damage, but is the amount worth it?

Spell Perfection/Quicken Spell is a given in a build like this, of course.

Let's not forget to use Magical Trick (Fireball).

Oh, this is interesting. Adds a lot of versatility, although it also loses quite a bit of damage for most applications. Concentrated Fire + Widen Spell might make it worth it, though - extra 7d6+whatever per die bonuses seems quite good as a "explode this guy in particular" option. Although Cluster Bomb allows you to exceed the actual damage limitations, as there is no stated limit to how many clusters you can produce (unlike the basic spell), that might be worth considering too.

[Kurald Galain]

if I can find a way to get Consecrate onto my spell list,

Magaambyan Arcana trait.

Hmmm. Wizard is a bit too Wizard for my tastes (don't like strict prepared casters much), and this tends to squash on Sorcerer dips too

Pure sorcerer works really well, especially if you add bloodline mutations.

although passing a DC18 save on a caster might be troublesome earlier on.

Even if it's once per combat, it's still pretty good. Note that elves can get +4 to saves against fatigue.

Is making targets catch fire all that good?

No, but it's funny

[Serafina]

Let's not forget to use Magical Trick (Fireball).

That breaks the game utterly if you do it right.

I wrote that up here.
With Crossblooded Sorcerer and Blood Havoc it's 130 sonic damage to a single target at 8th level. If you use an Empower Rod, that goes up to over 300 damage. At 20th level, it's over 500 damage. If you use Army Across Time shenanigans (cast the spell, have the Allied Spellcaster feat, cast a quickened fireball) this goes to over 2000 damage, and you're basically guaranteed to penetrate Spell Resistance. At that point only Evasion (or Sonic Immunity, or specific Fireball-spell immunity) can save an enemy, so pump those Save DCs.

Obviously this breaks the game, so it shouldn't be allowed, and is more of a TO idea.

But IMO Cluster Bomb + Concentrated Fire + Widen Spell with some metamagic reduction provides a nice enough Blaster-solution to a character without breaking the damage curve, if you don't take damage adders beyond that. And it plays nicely - do you just nuke a single enemy, or spread the damage out across two enemies, a 10-foot radius, or some other option?
Only allow this on a caster who otherwise focusses on other spells and has this pocket nuke in their backpack as their one blasting solution though.

[Endarire]

With Easy Metamagic and Practical Metamagic and rods, you can also add Fell Drain or Fell Animate.

[Anthrowhale]

You may find the Minimal Mailman interesting since it's a fire sorcerer using a different set of tricks: Fire Sphere sorcerer, Bloodline of Fire, Fiery Spell, Ocular Spell, Planar Sorcerer, Practical Metamagic, (Lesser) Orb of Fire, and Mark of the Enlightened Soul. With 4 feats and 4 spell slots, it deals level-appropriate damage through levels 1-20.

[Khatoblepas]

Don't forget a Quaal's Feather Token (Tree) and an eternal wand of Acorn of Far Travel, to get the effect of the Elemental Plane of Fire on your spells:

Enhanced magic. Spells and spell-like abilities with the fire descriptor are both maximized and enlarged (as if the Maximize Spell and Enlarge Spell had been used on them, but the spells don’t require higher-level slots). Spells and spell-like abilities that are already maximized or enlarged are unaffected by this benefit.

Huck that token down in the City of Brass and enjoy the extra free metamagic.

[Ignimortis]

Oh ho. This is a veritable gallery of tricks. I'll have to limit myself hard, don't want to alarm the GM too much. But the good part of that is that I get to really pick and choose while still maintaining a decent damage output.

Magaambyan Arcana trait.

Hmmm. Race limited to human. Human ain't bad, but also ain't great. Aasimar (Scion of Humanity) could probably get me there, though...

Pure sorcerer works really well, especially if you add bloodline mutations.

Actually, yes, I can do a small-scale version of blood arcanist by going Bloodline Development into Blood Havoc if I don't want to pick up Orc bloodline. Straight Sorc can also work, but I'm kind of curious about doing this on an Arcanist simply for the flavour and also to see how silly an Arcanist can get even with spending 90% of build resources on Fireball - because ATM, it looks like a very busted class for someone who's got enough system mastery to play a general caster decently, but not enough to perfectly play a Wizard. Also the idea of having a whole toolbox of spells but usually going for the hammer.

Even if it's once per combat, it's still pretty good. Note that elves can get +4 to saves against fatigue.

Might be a later pickup to keep the damage up, I suppose.

No, but it's funny

Not untrue...

That breaks the game utterly if you do it right.

I wrote that up here.
With Crossblooded Sorcerer and Blood Havoc it's 130 sonic damage to a single target at 8th level. If you use an Empower Rod, that goes up to over 300 damage. At 20th level, it's over 500 damage. If you use Army Across Time shenanigans (cast the spell, have the Allied Spellcaster feat, cast a quickened fireball) this goes to over 2000 damage, and you're basically guaranteed to penetrate Spell Resistance. At that point only Evasion (or Sonic Immunity, or specific Fireball-spell immunity) can save an enemy, so pump those Save DCs.

Obviously this breaks the game, so it shouldn't be allowed, and is more of a TO idea.

But IMO Cluster Bomb + Concentrated Fire + Widen Spell with some metamagic reduction provides a nice enough Blaster-solution to a character without breaking the damage curve, if you don't take damage adders beyond that. And it plays nicely - do you just nuke a single enemy, or spread the damage out across two enemies, a 10-foot radius, or some other option?
Only allow this on a caster who otherwise focusses on other spells and has this pocket nuke in their backpack as their one blasting solution though.

Yes, I think I can get away with a lot less than total investment. Don't need to break the game, just to blast things good.

With Easy Metamagic and Practical Metamagic and rods, you can also add Fell Drain or Fell Animate.

Fell Drain might be a good idea for higher levels (though Pathfinder removed negative levels' most powerful effect of "whoops you dropped your highest-level spells, how sad", which makes it less of a useful anti-caster tool). Fell Animate, probably not.

You may find the Minimal Mailman interesting since it's a fire sorcerer using a different set of tricks: Fire Sphere sorcerer, Bloodline of Fire, Fiery Spell, Ocular Spell, Planar Sorcerer, Practical Metamagic, (Lesser) Orb of Fire, and Mark of the Enlightened Soul. With 4 feats and 4 spell slots, it deals level-appropriate damage through levels 1-20.

Very useful, thanks. Having backups ain't bad either, although I do have to profess that I hate the idea of Conjuration damage spells being this good when there's a perfectly good "blast stuff" school right there a few lines down.

Don't forget a Quaal's Feather Token (Tree) and an eternal wand of Acorn of Far Travel, to get the effect of the Elemental Plane of Fire on your spells:

Huck that token down in the City of Brass and enjoy the extra free metamagic.

That'll get the DMG thrown at me, but it's a fun trick nonetheless.