What Use is Writhing Tide?

[TaiLiu]

The Swarmkeeper Ranger gets this class feature at level seven:

You can condense part of your swarm into a focused mass that lifts you up. As a bonus action, you gain a flying speed of 10 feet and can hover. This effect lasts for 1 minute or until you are incapacitated.

What is this useful for? The flying speed is abysmal and might hamper the Ranger. You won't succeed in aerial chases, and being in the air kinda locks you in. It's hard to think of uses that aren't terribly situational.

Maybe it's nice for vertical movement, like to get things off of a tall shelf or to ascend to the 2nd floor of a building. Maybe you're descending to the bottom of a well.

But... there are so so so many other ways to do vertical movement that aren't so restrictive and with such a short duration. Is there something I'm missing?

[Rukelnikov]

The Swarmkeeper Ranger gets this class feature at level seven:



What is this useful for? The flying speed is abysmal and might hamper the Ranger. You won't succeed in aerial chases, and being in the air kinda locks you in. It's hard to think of uses that aren't terribly situational.

Maybe it's nice for vertical movement, like to get things off of a tall shelf or to ascend to the 2nd floor of a building. Maybe you're descending to the bottom of a well.

But... there are so so so many other ways to do vertical movement that aren't so restrictive and with such a short duration. Is there something I'm missing?

You can fly...

Go over a chasm, enter a castle's 4th floor window, stay out of reach of melee enemies, idk what to say

[Duff]

Any flying speed solves some problems -
Water hazard? No swim speed needed
Floor with Pit traps? - Non issue
Can't jump 10 feet up and it's to slick to climb? "I fly up"
Melee enemies? "I fly 10' up and shoot them all while they wail and gnash their teeth helplessly on the ground.

Not saying it's powerful, but it has some uses

[Kane0]

Fly is normally a 3rd level spell, which full casters get at 5th and half casters like the Ranger at 9th. Getting a slower speed, bonus action version that doesnt use a spell slot at 7th isnt a bad deal at all.

Edit: oh and it doesnt use concentration.

[Unoriginal]

The Swarmkeeper Ranger gets this class feature at level seven:



What is this useful for? The flying speed is abysmal and might hamper the Ranger. You won't succeed in aerial chases, and being in the air kinda locks you in. It's hard to think of uses that aren't terribly situational.

Maybe it's nice for vertical movement, like to get things off of a tall shelf or to ascend to the 2nd floor of a building. Maybe you're descending to the bottom of a well.

But... there are so so so many other ways to do vertical movement that aren't so restrictive and with such a short duration. Is there something I'm missing?

The 10ft isn't great, but that feature is always going to be helpful.

As others have said, you can use it in combat or to get over obstacles, hazards and traps. You can use that as an alternative to climbing, or to get where climbing would be impossible. You can also Dash on your turn to get 20ft, which isn't negligeable in many situation.

All in all it's pretty useful and awesomely fitting thematically, when other subclasses often have to deal with ribbons that are half as thematic as that.

[Amnestic]

It is primarily for 'exploration' rather than combat as others have said, but even just 10ft up puts you out of range of a bunch of melee enemies, and 20ft up on your turn after is even more of 'em. If you want to low-prio yourself (due to low health or similar) against melee-only enemies it does its job.

[stoutstien]

You also get another 5-15ft of movement by using your gathering swarm.

Mighty swarm can make you a fairly hard target even if you are in the open floating around like a Candyman Eldritch forest being combo.

[Psyren]

1) Rangers don't usually have any flight at all (especially not as early as 7th level), so 10ft is better than 0ft.

2) This is also useful just due to the hover. Even if you get flight or elevation* from another source, you can get up in the air, turn this on, and then not worry about falling even if your speed is later reduced to zero. It's also concentration-free as mentioned, so being rendered incapacitated in midair won't bring you down.

*All rangers have climb speeds now due to Roving, so the Swarmkeeper can, say, climb a nearby tree or building and then pop 10ft above that if they have sufficient movement.

3) As others have said, this is particularly useful for out of combat traversal. You can combine this with Dash to cover 200ft of movement per activation, which is usually enough to clear most obstacles (e.g. gaps, floating over hazards, ascending walls etc) that might benefit from the PC having flight.

[RogueJK]

Yep. It's an exploration feature, not necessarily a combat feature. With a 1 minute 10' fly speed, you can fly 130'-180' using multiple Dashes (depending on CONMOD). That allows you to travel a fairly significant distance up/across to access previously inaccessible areas, or avoid hazards.

[JackPhoenix]

Just because the base flying speed is 10' doesn't mean you can't increase it. Longstrider is a ranger spell that adds +10' to your speed (not limited to walking, unlike the Deft Explorer improvement), and Mobile feat also doesn't care about what sort of movement speed you're improving. Ashardalon's Stride is also on ranger's list, but 20' speed increase for 3rd level slot is probably not worth it, but you can make a flyby and burn a bunch of enemies, I guess?

[Blatant Beast]

Writhing Tide can also be used to achieve the vaunted, Flying Prone Condition….otherwise known as the Piñata Gambit.

The Ranger in question, can hover off the ground, out of reach of most melee attacks and go Prone. Mechanically speaking, all Ranged Attacks against the Ranger have Disadvantage, despite the Ranger being a hovering blimp in the air.

[Unoriginal]

Also let's not forget that thanks to the hovering, it makes the Ranger straight up immune to the concept of falling for a whole minute.

You're fighting on a platform above/next to pikes or lava, on a rope bridge or on a ship, or against any opponent that likes to push you or throw you into perilous pits below (ranging from the muscular brute to the telekinetic master)?

Swarmkeeper Ranger says "nay".



Thank you, OP, as I'm now imagining a Swarmkeeper-themed boss fight, and the ideas I have will likely be quite awesome when played out at a table.

[Inquisitor]

There are so many good answers in responses that I can only think that Writhing Tide ends up in the position of being under-rated by some players because it's not as good as so many of the other newer flight features (racial and subclass). Basically the power creep makes this very good feature appear substandard... unfortunate.

[Unoriginal]

There are so many good answers in responses that I can only think that Writhing Tide ends up in the position of being under-rated by some players because it's not as good as so many of the other newer flight features (racial and subclass). Basically the power creep makes this very good feature appear substandard... unfortunate.

Swarmkeeper Ranger is from the Tasha's. Which flight features are newer than that?

The Dragon Ascendant Monk and the Drakewarden Ranger both have flight features, but given how they work I don't think power creep is a factor here.

[sambojin]

The Summon Beast spell is also from Tasha's, although your DM might not like a small beast grappling a medium humanoid (you) and flying with them.

Although, in theory, it's a 30' fly speed for an hour, assuming you and your gear weigh less than 270lbs. Takes a lvl2 spell and your concentration though, so it's not nearly as robust as Writhing Tide. You could use them in combination though, for "safe flight" for ten of those rounds.

[Unoriginal]

The Summon Beast spell is also from Tasha's, although your DM might not like a small beast grappling a medium humanoid (you) and flying with them.

Although, in theory, it's a 30' fly speed for an hour, assuming you and your gear weigh less than 270lbs. Takes a lvl2 spell and your concentration though, so it's not nearly as robust as Writhing Tide. You could use them in combination though, for "safe flight" for ten of those rounds.

Grappling means the creature's speed is halved, though. Assuming the creature has the means to grapple.

[TaiLiu]

Thanks for your responses, everyone.

Sorry in advance for not quoting. There were a lot of responses and some people made similar points, and I found it a little overwhelming to organize the quotes.


"A fly speed is useful regardless of its limited speed."

I agree that having a fly speed is more useful than not having a fly speed. I just think its utility is limited by its minuscule speed and tiny duration. What challenges can you overcome with Writhing Tide that you can't overcome with ordinary climbing, jumping, and walking?

And how often will they come up? Yeah, maybe a wall is too slick to climb... But that's literally never come up before in my time playing D&D.

"Writhing Tide is useful for exploration."

The combination of speed and duration is so limited that I dunno if it is. Gaseous form, which the Swarmkeeper also gets, lasts an hour and lets you go places that you could not otherwise go. In contrast, Writhing Tide lasts a minute and lets you hover, which will rarely be useful outside of combat.

In fact, the duration makes me suspect that it is intended for combat.

"Writhing Tide is useful for combat. The hover aspect is especially nice."

I think you've persuaded me that Writhing Tide is more useful for combat than I originally thought. I don't recall any combats where a serious melee combatant also didn't have a way to engage flying characters. But enough people have brought it up that maybe my D&D experiences are abnormal.

The hovering aspect is unique. You can't fall. But—you can't fall. It's easy to imagine situations where you're high in the air and need to get back down immediately. You can't just drop, so you're stuck moving 20 feet each round.

"It's better to have Writhing Tide than not. Besides, other Ranger conclaves grant worse seventh-level features."

It's mostly the opportunity cost that bothers me. Seventh-level Ranger features tend to be solid. The Gloom Stalker gets proficiency in Wisdom saves. The Hunter picks a defensive ability. The Drakewarden's drake powers up.

For a brief minute, the Swarmkeeper gets to fly very slowly. Even a fly speed of 20 feet would be a big bonus for Writhing Tide.

"There are ways to improve the terrible flying speed Writhing Tide offers."

That's true. JackPhoenix mentioned longstrider, which is relatively cheap. 20 feet per round is solid for sure. But given how few spells and slots a Ranger gets, it's not a spell the Ranger can just fire and forget. Other solutions involve costs serious enough that I don't consider them contenders.

As an aside: while it's true that Gathered Swarm lets you move 5 additional feet per successful attack, I might wanna do something else with Gathered Swarm besides increase my minuscule flying speed. It's also not useful for exploration (unless I attack myself or my companions).

[Chaos Jackal]

"A fly speed is useful regardless of its limited speed."

I agree that having a fly speed is more useful than not having a fly speed. I just think its utility is limited by its minuscule speed and tiny duration. What challenges can you overcome with Writhing Tide that you can't overcome with ordinary climbing, jumping, and walking?

And how often will they come up? Yeah, maybe a wall is too slick to climb... But that's literally never come up before in my time playing D&D.

It is limited alright, but as you admitted, better to have a flight speed than not, and there are a lot of PCs falling under "not". As to things you can't overcome with regular movement... crossing a big chasm? Climbing up or down a steep cliff? Scaling a fortification wall? Getting to a castle tower's window? Anything of the kind. Even if you or your DM would allow climbing/jumping for some of these, I don't know about you but I'd much prefer not risking a roll of 3 or something on the inevitable ability check.

Even in a more general aspect, flight is effectively three-dimensional movement in a largely two-dimensional game. That alone counts for something.

"Writhing Tide is useful for combat. The hover aspect is especially nice."

I think you've persuaded me that Writhing Tide is more useful for combat than I originally thought. I don't recall any combats where a serious melee combatant also didn't have a way to engage flying characters. But enough people have brought it up that maybe my D&D experiences are abnormal.

The hovering aspect is unique. You can't fall. But—you can't fall. It's easy to imagine situations where you're high in the air and need to get back down immediately. You can't just drop, so you're stuck moving 20 feet each round.

That will of course depend on the table. Do keep in mind, however, that a significant part of printed monsters just flat out lack ranged options, or they have some really terrible alternatives compared to their meat grinder melee. Sure, not every DM will use printed monsters, but a lot do and it's almost hilarious just how many enemies are completely neutralized by the ability to fly. Even with DMs who won't just always use statblocks straight from the books, odds are that you'll face many a thing you'd rather tank ranged rather than melee attacks from. Can the DM equip the entire guard with crossbows? Sure. Would you rather take a crossbow shot for 1d10+x, or three sword attacks for 3d6/8+3x?

Like, look at PCs themselves. Is avoiding the barbarian's greataxe attacks with advantage not worth it because you'll get a couple handaxes chucked at you at disadvantage?

[Psyren]

I agree that having a fly speed is more useful than not having a fly speed. I just think its utility is limited by its minuscule speed and tiny duration. What challenges can you overcome with Writhing Tide that you can't overcome with ordinary climbing, jumping, and walking?

I won't speak for everyone, but I can easily think of obstacles that a minute of "ordinary walking, climbing, and jumping" can't clear in a minute; a 100'-200' chasm for instance.

|The combination of speed and duration is so limited that I dunno if it is. Gaseous form, which the Swarmkeeper also gets, lasts an hour and lets you go places that you could not otherwise go. In contrast, Writhing Tide lasts a minute and lets you hover, which will rarely be useful outside of combat.

I'd say a minute of flight or even hovering is plenty useful outside of combat, several examples were given above. And yeah, Gaseous Form can do it too... with concentration and a 3rd-level spell slot, a resource a Ranger 7 doesn't even have, and probably wouldn't want to spend on that even if they did.

[Kane0]

"Writhing Tide is useful for exploration."

The combination of speed and duration is so limited that I dunno if it is.

In fact, the duration makes me suspect that it is intended for combat.

Looking at that bonus action activation as well, I think you're right. Of course it can be used for noncombat purposes, but it seems designed with combat in mind.

[Unoriginal]

The hovering aspect is unique. You can't fall. But—you can't fall. It's easy to imagine situations where you're high in the air and need to get back down immediately. You can't just drop, so you're stuck moving 20 feet each round.

Where is that rule written?

Hovering is something you *can* do, not *must* do. If you want to get back down you can choose to drop (on your turn, of course), like with any flying speed that lasts more than a round.

[stoutstien]

I mean of the three options two can be used to increase the impact of the flight and the third is 1d6/1d8 nonmagical piercing damage once per round.

By the time you do get tides that 1d6 is pretty forgettable.

[Blatant Beast]

I'd say a minute of flight or even hovering is plenty useful outside of combat, several examples were given above. And yeah, Gaseous Form can do it too... with concentration and a 3rd-level spell slot, a resource a Ranger 7 doesn't even have, and probably wouldn't want to spend on that even if they did.

We should also not forget that Gaseous Form absolutely ensures the Ranger is a non combatant. In terms of Exploration, the fact that one cannot interact with physical objects might put one at a literal Disadvantage.

A Perception/Investigation Ability roll made while searching for traps, might include the presumption of gentle, careful, tactile exploration being involved in said check, which our Free Floating Vapor PC is unable to perform.

[TaiLiu]

It is limited alright, but as you admitted, better to have a flight speed than not, and there are a lot of PCs falling under "not". As to things you can't overcome with regular movement... crossing a big chasm? Climbing up or down a steep cliff? Scaling a fortification wall? Getting to a castle tower's window? Anything of the kind. Even if you or your DM would allow climbing/jumping for some of these, I don't know about you but I'd much prefer not risking a roll of 3 or something on the inevitable ability check.

Even in a more general aspect, flight is effectively three-dimensional movement in a largely two-dimensional game. That alone counts for something.

That will of course depend on the table. Do keep in mind, however, that a significant part of printed monsters just flat out lack ranged options, or they have some really terrible alternatives compared to their meat grinder melee. Sure, not every DM will use printed monsters, but a lot do and it's almost hilarious just how many enemies are completely neutralized by the ability to fly. Even with DMs who won't just always use statblocks straight from the books, odds are that you'll face many a thing you'd rather tank ranged rather than melee attacks from. Can the DM equip the entire guard with crossbows? Sure. Would you rather take a crossbow shot for 1d10+x, or three sword attacks for 3d6/8+3x?

Like, look at PCs themselves. Is avoiding the barbarian's greataxe attacks with advantage not worth it because you'll get a couple handaxes chucked at you at disadvantage?

Except for the chasm, I don't think I'd make a player roll an ability check for these examples. Especially since one of the Ranger's class features gives them a climb speed.

Yes, that's true. Writhing Tide is hardly useless. As mentioned, even a minor improvement of +10 feet would be immense.

That's a good point. Unfortunately, hovering 10 feet above the battlefield isn't that powerful. Yeah, maybe the human guard is gonna struggle to stab you, but the 12-foot-tall golem can crush you with ease. So you'll need to either Dash or only benefit defensively on your second turn. But I concede that for some combat situations, 10 feet may be enough.

There's also a frustrating anti-synergy re: avoiding attacks. Rangers are d10 classes and are meant to take hits that others can't. If a foe can't target me in the air, they'll target the d6 or d8 classes who may be concentrating on important spells.

I won't speak for everyone, but I can easily think of obstacles that a minute of "ordinary walking, climbing, and jumping" can't clear in a minute; a 100'-200' chasm for instance.

I'd say a minute of flight or even hovering is plenty useful outside of combat, several examples were given above. And yeah, Gaseous Form can do it too... with concentration and a 3rd-level spell slot, a resource a Ranger 7 doesn't even have, and probably wouldn't want to spend on that even if they did.

Again, maybe my play experiences are unusual. But: I've never encountered a 100 to 200 foot chasm that wasn't bridged in some way. Besides, unless we're in a rush and what we need is immediately over the chasm, it's not too hard to simply find a different path.

Yeah, gaseous form is really expensive for a Ranger. A Swarmkeeper might use it to escape a dangerous situation, but probably not to explore. Bad example on my part.

Looking at that bonus action activation as well, I think you're right. Of course it can be used for noncombat purposes, but it seems designed with combat in mind.

For sure.

Where is that rule written?

Hovering is something you *can* do, not *must* do. If you want to get back down you can choose to drop (on your turn, of course), like with any flying speed that lasts more than a round.

Good question. I got it from the flying movement rules in the PHB:

Flying creatures enjoy many benefits of mobility, but they must also deal with the danger of falling. If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell.

An ordinary flying creature can drop by falling prone. A creature with the fly spell can't fall. Neither can a creature with Writhing Tide active.

I mean of the three options two can be used to increase the impact of the flight and the third is 1d6/1d8 nonmagical piercing damage once per round.

By the time you do get tides that 1d6 is pretty forgettable.

What's the second option? Gathered Swarm says this:

Once on each of your turns, you can cause the swarm to assist you in one of the following ways, immediately after you hit a creature with an attack:

• The attack's target takes 1d6 piercing damage from the swarm.
• The attack's target must succeed on a Strength saving throw against your spell save DC or be moved by the swarm up to 15 feet horizontally in a direction of your choice.
• You are moved by the swarm 5 feet horizontally in a direction of your choice.

You can move your foe 15 feet, but not yourself. You're right that 1d6/turn isn't amazing, but it definitely has its place. Triggering a second DC 10 Concentration check is nice.

We should also not forget that Gaseous Form absolutely ensures the Ranger is a non combatant. In terms of Exploration, the fact that one cannot interact with physical objects might put one at a literal Disadvantage.

A Perception/Investigation Ability roll made while searching for traps, might include the presumption of gentle, careful, tactile exploration being involved in said check, which our Free Floating Vapor PC is unable to perform.

Yeah. But if we're checking for traps, I wouldn't be spending my Writhing Tide uses, which only last for a minute anyway. Gaseous form is just a handy exploration spell cuz it lets you get to places you couldn't otherwise get to. Cracks in the walls and all that.

[Unoriginal]

E
Good question. I got it from the flying movement rules in the PHB:

Flying creatures enjoy many benefits of mobility, but they must also deal with the danger of falling. If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell.

An ordinary flying creature can drop by falling prone. A creature with the fly spell can't fall. Neither can a creature with Writhing Tide active.

Hovering is an ability, not a fixed condition. You are not forced to hover.

[stoutstien]

What's the second option? Gathered Swarm says this:

Once on each of your turns, you can cause the swarm to assist you in one of the following ways, immediately after you hit a creature with an attack:

• The attack's target takes 1d6 piercing damage from the swarm.
• The attack's target must succeed on a Strength saving throw against your spell save DC or be moved by the swarm up to 15 feet horizontally in a direction of your choice.
• You are moved by the swarm 5 feet horizontally in a direction of your choice.

You can move your foe 15 feet, but not yourself. You're right that 1d6/turn isn't amazing, but it definitely has its place. Triggering a second DC 10 Concentration check is nice.

The third bullet. Assuming you *are* starting near enough to worry about it, 5ft is regularly all you need to be out of range of a foe. you can swarm 5ft step, walk away 25 ft(rover), then fly up 5ft (diagonal). Even starting right next to a foe you already made it difficult to reach you and because it's not concentration you can mix in stuff like web, spike growth, or whatnot.

Most people want to use it to fly way up but skirting the ground allows you the option to drop and utilize your full movement and then you can fly up if needed. Bonus points if you use the climb speed to out crouching Dragon the monk.

I have one player playing a str goblin swarm keeper and they are brutally efficient. the bugbear monk hold their own.

[sambojin]

Also, the swarm stays with you, so when it moves you 5', it's still there with you. So your fly speed of 10' can be 10' wherever +5' horizontally, they don't shove you out of hover mode.

It's not much, but 15' fly/hover feels a lot better than 10', especially for exploring. A 100-150' fly-over-the-course-of-a-minute bonus action "spell", 3+ times a day, that can't be dispelled and doesn't take concentration, on a class with a lack of spell slots and spells known, isn't bad. That it can do combatty stuff too is nice, and its able to do them off ranged attacks.

I'm not saying it's great, but your Swarm becomes a very multifunctional ability as you level up.

[Rukelnikov]

Also, the swarm stays with you, so when it moves you 5', it's still there with you. So your fly speed of 10' can be 10' wherever +5' horizontally, they don't shove you out of hover mode.

It's not much, but 15' fly/hover feels a lot better than 10', especially for exploring. A 100-150' fly-over-the-course-of-a-minute bonus action "spell", 3+ times a day, that can't be dispelled and doesn't take concentration, on a class with a lack of spell slots and spells known, isn't bad. That it can do combatty stuff too is nice, and its able to do them off ranged attacks.

I'm not saying it's great, but your Swarm becomes a very multifunctional ability as you level up.

For exploring you can usually spend your action dashing

[RogueJK]

Also, the swarm stays with you, so when it moves you 5', it's still there with you. So your fly speed of 10' can be 10' wherever +5' horizontally, they don't shove you out of hover mode.

It's not much, but 15' fly/hover feels a lot better than 10', especially for exploring.

Gathered Swarm only triggers when you hit a creature with an attack. So unless you're hitting yourself as you fly around, or carrying around the proverbial bag of rats to punch, you're not going to be able to use that extra 5' of movement while exploring.

[Psyren]

Again, maybe my play experiences are unusual. But: I've never encountered a 100 to 200 foot chasm that wasn't bridged in some way. Besides, unless we're in a rush and what we need is immediately over the chasm, it's not too hard to simply find a different path.

I don't think you - or possibly your DM? - are thinking about obstacles in the right way.

The idea is not for the DM to throw an impassable chasm between the party and the critical path, sit back, and rub their hands in glee at the players' frustration. Rather, the goal is to have multiple routes to a given objective, at least a few of which reward the party for using their unique features. So yes, it's likely your wide chasm will have a long bridge on it - but that bridge may contain patrols and checkpoints and sightlines that the scout will need to bypass with meaningful consequences if they fail. Or the Swarmkeeper can fly parallel to the bridge, or even under it, and not need to make such checks at all. And while there can be additional different paths to get there, those would have challenges of their own, including finding them in the first place.

One of the best things a player can hear is "because you used {ability}, you don't even need to make a check." It's a very easy way to make their build choices matter, and you don't have to make a bunch of extra content, because "get across the chasm" was something you already planned for.