Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXXI

[loky1109]

Table.

#	Name	Alignment / Race	Class Levels	Chef	Total	Place
1	Toris d'Cannith	CN Human	Human Paragon 2/Deadly Hunter Urban Companion Druid 1/Shadowcaster 2/Cyre Scout 10/Cyran Avenger 5
2	Can-Nan the Barbarian	CN Human	Prescience Enhanced Awareness Bonus Feat Wizard 1/Lion Spiritual Totem Trapkiller Barbarian 4/Cyre Scout 10/Beastmaster 1/Fist of the Forest 2/Scorpion Wraith 2
3	Luke Karlos	TN Were-Glidewing Human	Savant 2/Huntsman Druidic Avenger 1/Hit-And-Run Tactics Fighter 1/Cyre Scout 10/Shiba Protector 1
4	Arnauld ‘Focus’ d’Cannith	CG Human	Factotum 5/Cyre Scout 10/Chameleon 5

[Inevitability]

Do we have a judge?

[loky1109]

Not me this time.

[Inevitability]

Anybody willing to judge this round?

[Paragon]

I really would but time is so scarce I barely see my pregnant-soon-to-be-mother wife as is.
If I ever get a break I'll have a try (especially since I've been so frustrated by the class) but can't guarantee anything

[Inevitability]

I really would but time is so scarce I barely see my pregnant-soon-to-be-mother wife as is.

Congratulations, at any rate! More than understandable to prioritize over a pretend game competition, for sure.

[quetzalcoatl5]

If no one else can judge, I'll do it, but won't have it together until next week.

[The Viscount]

We can certainly be patient. I really appreciate you volunteering!

[FactualArcher]

Thanks for offering. I’m more than happy to wait.

[quetzalcoatl5]

Cool! I should have it together by next weekend

[quetzalcoatl5]

Confirming that I am working on judging this weekend.

[The Viscount]

That's great to hear!

While that's in process, I'm mulling over options for next round.

• Discount Buffet
• Confusing Priorities
• No! My Way!

[daremetoidareyo]

That's great to hear!

While that's in process, I'm mulling over options for next round.

• Discount Buffet
• Confusing Priorities
• No! My Way!

Confusing priorities sounds fun

[Venger]

I never could resist a discount buffet.

[Inevitability]

I can appreciate a good set of confusing priorities.

[quetzalcoatl5]

This weekend was busier than I expected. Hoping to get the judging done in the next day or so

[loky1109]

Confusing Priorities

[quetzalcoatl5]

Judgements

This was hard to judge for the same reason I sat out from cooking: the secret ingredient is a thing to build around instead of upon. Great entries however! I love some of the synergies that I absolutely didn't see coming.

Toris d'Cannith

Spoiler: Breakdown

Show

Originality - Obviously, we’re looking at a Secret Ingredient that not only dictates what race we’re all using, but what family they’re from. That said, this not a surprising mix, except for the Shadowcaster dip and progression. 3

Power - I don’t think this build ever gets to be “strong” since the Secret Ingredient and it suffers at low levels, however it does contribute to the party. The later interaction of Cyre Scout and Shadow Caster abilities with the martial power of the Cyran Avenger leads me to think this catches up towards the end, but it never shines. 2.5

Elegance - Let me start by noting my appreciation for the 5 Cyran Avenger levels in here! Love that class and am always happy to see it. It works to get some Cyre in your Cyre. I’m pretty happy with how the various elements come together. The Druid level doesn’t quite seem as well integrated as Shadow Caster, however. 3.5

Use of Secret Ingredient - I like the blending of Shadowcaster with Cyre Scout to create a pseudo ranger with a favored terrain that they in a small way bring with them. It’s clever. 4

Total: 13


Can-Nan the Barbarian

Spoiler: Breakdown

Show

Originality - Really dig this! I mean the following in a good way: this makes me think of the Pathfinder 1e Alchemist. I find this very cool. It also makes me think of the Warcraft 3 Goblin Alchemist hero unit. Like, a potion rager! It’s really cool. 4.5

Power - As far as making a brutal bare knuckle brawler with brilliant boons battling battalions of buffoons, this looks like a good build that does its job in an interesting way. The schtick is slightly suboptimal in the broader meta, but certainly worth doing. Infusions to buff your unarmed strikes is a cool idea and I just wish the SI was better suited to execute on the idea. 3

Elegance - Ah! Here is that Jackson Pollock of class levels and ACFs that I expect out of Iron Chef. I’m impressed by how many classes and features you crammed into the available 10 levels outside of the Secret Ingredient. It lacks the charm of simplicity, but it makes up for it with texture. 4

Use of Secret Ingredient - There’s a lot going on here and I’m not sure if the Secret Ingredient ties it all together in such a way as to make the build shine. You do enter it early, but you also don’t finish it until late. Ultimately, I just don’t think the Secret Ingredient feels like a big contributor to the core idea of the build. You made a great case for how it ties the room together and that's not just your opinion, man. 3.5

Total: 15


Luke Karlos

Spoiler: Breakdown

Show

Originality - You made Sauron. I love this. I did not see that coming when I read the secret ingredient. I like this a lot and it appeals to the comic nerd in me. Plus you used Savant! Shiba Protector! That said, it is a riff on an existing character, so I’m giving it a… 4.5

Power - This build is, as you noted, unfocused at low levels and will struggle to contribute outside of some basic skill monkey options until your were-glider abilities kick in and then bolstered by the Secret Ingredient and the Shiba Protector dip. I think this is pretty strong as a flying skirmisher at late levels, but it’s a long slog to get there. 3

Elegance - What’s wild is that I can see in the class selection how this adds up to Sauron. It makes me like what is a pretty erratic build, because it tells a story. As with most of the builds in this contest, you finish the SI late but you do finish it, and you at least have the excuse of the hefty level adjustment you have to deal with. 3

Use of Secret Ingredient - I think you make a good case for how the Secret Ingredient integrates with a werecreature. 4

Total: 14.5

Arnauld ‘Focus’ d’Cannith

Spoiler: Breakdown

Show

Originality - A Factotum/Chameleon build feels common and maybe that’s just my perception of a couple entries of late, or maybe that’s just me, but I’m left feeling like the Cyre Scout is an intrusion on a different build. I like the leaning into being an every man jack of all trades type and there are benefits to this build that will come up below, but the only thing I didn’t see coming was how bluntly inserted the Secret Ingredient is. 2.5

Power - I like a generalist! I think this character is contributing a ton outside of combat, unfortunately in combat it’s limited by how not combat focused the Cyre Scout is. It’s a little fragile with worse than mediocre BAB and no real ability to spike damage without burning through resources that it only has in limited supply. I think this build will have to rely on magic items to contribute in combat which is going to have a cost. 2.5

Elegance - Hey! While this build is a little blunt, that doesn’t mean it lacks elegance! The Cyre Scout is a very specific flavor, bold and overpowering, and playing nice with that requires a stable but malleable foundation and garnishing. The Cyre Scout plays well with a generalist. Furthermore, this could have been a flurry of class levels, but instead you have a very simple 5 base and 5 supplemental levels, which I appreciate. The fact that the floating feat from the Chameleon levels combines with Cyre Scout for item creation is lovely synergy and I like this a lot! 4.5

Use of Secret Ingredient - Broadly, the only thing that I catch is that you finish the Secret Ingredient near the end of the build. That said, you get through it completely and it works additively with your other flavors. 3.5

Total: 13


As for next time, Confusing Priorities

[The Viscount]

Thank you very much for judging!

I have two disputes here.

Hi, thanks for judging. Thank you for the high Originality, it means a lot to me.

However, I think the secret ingredient is very relevant to our core idea. We need a fighter bonus feat to fit into a martial PrC, but I get it via a caster class that interfaces with our cyre scout side. We use Tireless to mitigate our barbarian rage's drawback, we use Blind-Fight and Endurance to qualify for our 'Jackson Pollock of classes', we use Cyre Scout's most unique feature (Sustenance) to make up for Fist of the Forest's code of conduct; I feel like I put in a lot of effort to make the SI count here, and seeing a 2.5 for my troubles is kinda disheartening.

Even if you're looking at big picture stuff - at its core, this build was inspired by Direction Sense fueling Trapkiller (which already calls for a Barbarian 3 / Cyre Scout 10 stub), and from there I found tons of ways to tie half of that idea (brutish barbarian) to the other (artificer lite). "Wizard who thinks he's a barbarian" is a flavorful concept, right? But there's not a lot of classes that let you blend arcane magic, melee prowess, and wilderness survival like cyre scout does; it's tailor-made for what we're going for!

Also I'm having a bit of trouble understanding your elegance metric. This isn't a real dispute, but could you explain what a 5 Elegance build should look like to you, so I can understand this better?

Have a nice day!

Greetings,

You deduct originality points because 'it is a riff on an existing character'. However, if you look at the second post of the OP, 'other rules and guidelines' spoiler, third bullet point from the bottom, you will read it is not allowed to be "Penalizing because someone has chosen to build a tribute to an existing creative work". Please increase originality.

I don't get the elegance score. You talk about the moment where I finish the SI, but for all other builds you discuss this in UoSI. It feels misplaced, if nothing else.

Lastly, your UoSI is frustratingly bland. It's not at all clear to me why I have 4 points and not 5, given that you name 1 positive thing and 0 negative things. I'm not necessarily doubting the score of 4 (i'm quite happy with it!) but I want to know what earned me points and what lost me them!

Thanks for judging!

Looking to post the next round on the weekend, so I'd like to request if there are any other disputes to get them in the next 48 hours.

[FactualArcher]

Thanks for judging,. No disputes from me.

[quetzalcoatl5]

Thank you very much for judging!

I have two disputes here.

Valid ones! I am still new to judging and I may have overcorrected after being chided for being too generous with points last time I dipped my toe in.

However, I think the secret ingredient is very relevant to our core idea. We need a fighter bonus feat to fit into a martial PrC, but I get it via a caster class that interfaces with our cyre scout side. We use Tireless to mitigate our barbarian rage's drawback, we use Blind-Fight and Endurance to qualify for our 'Jackson Pollock of classes', we use Cyre Scout's most unique feature (Sustenance) to make up for Fist of the Forest's code of conduct; I feel like I put in a lot of effort to make the SI count here, and seeing a 2.5 for my troubles is kinda disheartening.

This is very fair and an oversight on my read of the build. With these points made, I am bumping UoSI to 3.5 and Elegance to 4.

You deduct originality points because 'it is a riff on an existing character'. However, if you look at the second post of the OP, 'other rules and guidelines' spoiler, third bullet point from the bottom, you will read it is not allowed to be "Penalizing because someone has chosen to build a tribute to an existing creative work". Please increase originality.

I would argue that I didn't "deduct points" so much as not award them, with 3 as my baseline. However, I did call out that aspect as a concern and you are technically correct (the best kind of correct), so I will bump Originality to a 4.5

Regarding some of the formatting for Luke Karlos, I did that one first and kept bouncing from metric to metric, so I apologize if I discussed things in the wrong sections when I was looking for things to bring up.

[Battlechaser]

Thanks for judging. No disputes from me.

[Inevitability]

No more disputes.

[loky1109]

Quetzalcoatl5, did you update points in the judging post?

[quetzalcoatl5]

Sorry. Haven't yet. I will when I'm in front of my computer.

EDIT: Updated

[The Viscount]

It's time for the reveal!

#	Name	Alignment / Race	Class Levels	Chef	Total	Place
1	Toris d'Cannith	CN Human	Human Paragon 2/Deadly Hunter Urban Companion Druid 1/Shadowcaster 2/Cyre Scout 10/Cyran Avenger 5	FactualArcher	13	3rd
2	Can-Nan the Barbarian	CN Human	Prescience Enhanced Awareness Bonus Feat Wizard 1/Lion Spiritual Totem Trapkiller Barbarian 4/Cyre Scout 10/Beastmaster 1/Fist of the Forest 2/Scorpion Wraith 2	Inevitability	15	1st
3	Luke Karlos	TN Were-Glidewing Human	Savant 2/Huntsman Druidic Avenger 1/Hit-And-Run Tactics Fighter 1/Cyre Scout 10/Shiba Protector 1	Inevitability	14.5	2nd
4	Arnauld ‘Focus’ d’Cannith	CG Human	Factotum 5/Cyre Scout 10/Chameleon 5	Battlechaser	13	3rd

Congratulations to all of our entrants! New round up shortly.

[Inevitability]

This was a fun round! I really enjoyed finding use, however niche, for Cyre Scout's abilities, and I'm eagerly looking forward to the next round!

On Can-Nan:
-I'm really glad I could finally get the Trapkiller + Natural Survivor + Direction Sense combo out of my system.
-The 'wizard who thinks he is a barbarian' thing actually appeared pretty late in the build process, when I realized I needed a wizard level in there and struggled to have it make sense fluffwise.
-That beastmaster level by all rights just should've been a ranger dip (the only thing I really needed was +1 BAB and Wild Empathy), but I was desperate to avoid originality penalties so found a so-so reason to sink a feat into beastmaster reqs instead.
-Really proud of the way I managed to make Sustenance less useless, honestly.
-One of my earlier ideas was to work Champion of Gwynharwyf in there and use your ability to heal in the mournland with Blood of the Martyr to kind of 'launder' healing - allies pump spells in you, you shift those HP to your allies. Sadly, that almost certainly doesn't work because Blood of the Martyr works 'as if a cure spell has been cast', but if the wording had been different, I'd have gone for that and not looked back. This was actually where I got the idea to use that extra smiting enhancement.
-Still on a healing-launder kick, I ran into Lifebond Vestments and looked into making a totem rager with Shape Soulmeld work (and later, just taking Shape Soulmeld).
-Another of my earlier attempts at working this concept out used Endurance to get into Bearlord and then used that Intimidate bonus for Avenging Executioner, with a sort of 'batman but a bear' vibe, but that felt like a lot of effort to get payoff for a feature I was already getting solid use of.

On Luke Karlos:
-This probably deserved to get 2nd, but I do think I like it a bit more than Can-Nan.
-I think my love for monster builds is pretty well known by now and I saw no reason to let a racial restriction stop me.
-More seriously, I don't think I want to be a human in any round where it's not explicitly required, so this was one of the few chances I'd ever have at fitting shiba protector in there.
-The sauron reference, again, came pretty late in the whole build. My logic actually went 'how do I make Dust Cloud work -> Winged Warrior lets me create a dust cloud -> hm I could have a bigger dust cloud if I'm Large and have Hover -> I guess we should be a flying Large-sized lycanthrope -> what's the lowest-HD large flying carnivore -> oh haha pteroman'.
-This build didn't have the laundry list of predecessors Can-Nan had, but I did during step two of that process consider a were-albatross, whose racial Endurance would dovetail nicely.