A Perfect Defense!

[brian 333]

Dorukan was aware of Lirian's Gate being destroyed for years.

That means he either didn't want to replace the Gate, or couldn't.

Considering Dorukan spent a lifetime protecting the world, actively tried to bring Lirian back from the dead, and knew better than anyone still alive what a Snarl rift being left open represent to the world, it'd be incredibly out of character for him to not want the region where Lirian's forest was to be safe.

Which means that the logical explanation is that Dorukan couldn't replace the Gate. Despite being the world's premier expert in magical seals, and half the team that crafted those Gates in the first place.

The idea that Gates could be rebuilt and rifts resealed if only all the people in the world knew about the Snarl simply does not hold up.


As for the "but what would the villains even do with a Gate if they knew the truth?" question, the answer is simple:

Unlike Redcloak, the master of the sunk cost fallacy, Xykon knows that *any* power is power, and that you go to war with the army you have not the army you want.

Even if they can't use the Snarl directly, whoever has the Gates can make the gods destroy the world. That is power. The gods are maybe willing to destroy the world if there is an hint the ritual to move the rift to a different plane is happening, but that doesn't mean a majority of them wouldn't consider "just let Xykon rule the world and he will make sure they hold" to be a preferable alternative. And as long as the gods don't blow up the world, Xykon can racket mortals' nations and

Furthermore, as pointed out above, it's likely possible to do *something* with the Snarl, or at least try to. Having access to the Gates and a detailled explanation means a ton of people will want to experiment, and even more will want to make the experimenters unable to do it.

Maybe he could not replace the gate. Maybe he didn't want to. Maybe he just didn't know anyone who was capable of learning the divine half of the sealing ritual. One thing is certain: because of the secret, anyone capable does not know that she is needed.

From what PoV is Xykon ruling the world worse than everyone dying? If Xykon rules, heroes will have to be more heroic. Even Evil creatures will have to submit or resist, (or both.) Xykon, or anyone like him, would exist in constant danger of being offed. Eventually, someone or some group would win if for no other reason than that he was bored and stopped paying attention.

And until he tries to actually do something that threatened the gods, two thirds of them will not want the world to end because of the sweet, sweet devotion. Fifteen minutes after Xykon's bluff becomes a real threat, the world will end. So the gate can only be used to paint a target on the back of whoever wants to control it.

I am certainly interested in what the 'something' could be. I can only think of three things:

Do nothing to or with it.
Use it as a bluff threat.
Use it as a real threat.

Do nothing and the gate is safe.

Use it as a bluff and you can frighten people until someone calls your bluff. Then you have to either do nothing or use it as a real threat.

Use it as a real threat and you can either intimidate locals or the gods. If you try to control the gate, the gods unravel the world leaving you with nothing to threaten. If you destroy the gate, you no longer have anything to use as a threat.

So, what am I missing? What 'something' could you use to benefit from controlling access to the gate?

I submit that if everyone knows about the gate, all about it, the world is safer. The secret is the only thing which allowed The Plan to have even a chance of working, and because The Order stumbled into it by accident, The Plan has failed three times in a row, but only because people now know about it.

[Liquor Box]

Okay, seriously, let's make this about the dubious ethics of appointing yourself savior of the world and deciding by yourself who gets to contribute to its protection and who doesn't. The Paladins went rogue within a generation, Girard's family was slipping, Lirian's inventing bioweapons (bet the gods would love to see that one become a pandemic), Serini did things she regrets, but only because of a near death experience. I guess Dorukan gets a bye, but he seemed to have less of a plan than the others for what to do after the timely death he never got.

The paladins didn't go rogue their defence was attack, Lyrian created a bioweapon that she was able to deliver to attackers only, I don't even know what you mean by "Girard's family was slipping" and Dorukon's defence did actually stop Xykon.

The only one who really did something to damage the defences was Serini, by writing down the locations of all the gates so they could be revealed. That's the very thing you are suggesting they should do voluntarily.

[fuschiawarrior]

I had not considered Snarl Worship. Having now considered it, would that be a bad thing? Anyone who wants to meet the Snarl could step through the rift. Maybe one day one of them will come back.

I honestly don't know what would happen, maybe it's even the solution: deify the god-killing abomination so it destroys itself because it hates the divine so much. Maybe it's business as usual. If this world is destroyed, would it have a say on the creation of the next one? Can the others gods starve it by destroying this world and staying in the inter-regnum period for a long time?

The gods' priority is not to have this world to feed on but to have a world to be their nourishment and mortal belief is a very big constraint on them, for example Odin is senile because of the beliefs from a world destroyed a long time ago and Loki can't tell the truth to his own daughter, so they would never allow something that could make their situation worse to happen. The gods and the snarl pose a threat to the world existence and you have to take both in account when preparing your defenses. Even if you prepare the perfect defense that work against the Snarl for eternity, maybe comes a Godsmoot and it's decided that they are bored and tired of this world, only a third of them are Good, and they can setup this assured defense on the next one.

[Errorname]

The paladins didn't go rogue their defence was attack, Lyrian created a bioweapon that she was able to deliver to attackers only, I don't even know what you mean by "Girard's family was slipping" and Dorukon's defence did actually stop Xykon.

Girard's family was an insular cult with an extremely cruel method of replenishing their numbers that was bound to bite them on the ass eventually, but there's no indication that they were slipping in terms of effectiveness beyond losing their best caster to old age, and their ultimate doom came from factors entirely outside their control.

[fuschiawarrior]

Girard's family was an insular cult with an extremely cruel method of replenishing their numbers that was bound to bite them on the ass eventually, but there's no indication that they were slipping in terms of effectiveness beyond losing their best caster to old age, and their ultimate doom came from factors entirely outside their control.

While I don't believe that Girard went straight to kidnapping babies to stablish his clan of Gate defenders, the first generation were adults from his immediate family maybe even his kids, he must have been alive when the practice started. Familicide was out of their control but if they recruited members outside of biological family, at least they would have survived to defend the Gate, so their method for obtaining new clan members did bite them on the ass in the end.

Part of me wonders if Girard started the practice or if the Draketooths were just like that already and Girard simply took their existing practices and turned them towards protecting the gate.

Interesting, I hadn't considered the possibility that the Draketooth were always like that.

Yeah, same with Soon and the unbreakable honour stuff. I'd say it's a theme with the Scribbler's Gate defenses is that they're undone by circumstances conspiring to turn their strengths into weaknesses, but it's only really that clear cut with Soon and Girard.

Agreed, one could kind of make a case for Dorukan's since he believed in magic as the ultimate defense and he was defeated by a powerful caster but it's shaky.

Because everyone knowing means everyone knowing.

I would add to this list people like Jephton, the Unholy who said when spliced to Vaarsuvius: "Tear down creation just to see if you can".

[Errorname]

While I don't believe that Girard went straight to kidnapping babies to stablish his clan of Gate defenders, the first generation were adults from his immediate family maybe even his kids, he must have been alive when the practice started.

Part of me wonders if Girard started the practice or if the Draketooths were just like that already and Girard simply took their existing practices and turned them towards protecting the gate.

Familicide was out of their control but if they recruited members outside of biological family, at least they would have survived to defend the Gate, so their method for obtaining new clan members did bite them on the ass in the end.

Yeah, same with Soon and the unbreakable honour stuff. I'd say it's a theme with the Scribbler's Gate defenses is that they're undone by circumstances conspiring to turn their strengths into weaknesses, but it's only really that clear cut with Soon and Girard.

[Unoriginal]

Maybe he could not replace the gate. Maybe he didn't want to. Maybe he just didn't know anyone who was capable of learning the divine half of the sealing ritual. One thing is certain: because of the secret, anyone capable does not know that she is needed.

1) this is once again affirming without evidence that there *is* anyone capable.

2) The Order of the Scribble were more than fine explaining to people how the Gates work and what is at stake, so that those people could help with the defense.

What you're holding against them is that they were only fine telling that to people they trusted to be competent, responsible and non-corrupt, rather than telling everyone.

Which is a weird thing to hold against someone.

From what PoV is Xykon ruling the world worse than everyone dying? If Xykon rules, heroes will have to be more heroic. Even Evil creatures will have to submit or resist, (or both.) Xykon, or anyone like him, would exist in constant danger of being offed. Eventually, someone or some group would win if for no other reason than that he was bored and stopped paying attention.

And until he tries to actually do something that threatened the gods, two thirds of them will not want the world to end because of the sweet, sweet devotion. Fifteen minutes after Xykon's bluff becomes a real threat, the world will end. So the gate can only be used to paint a target on the back of whoever wants to control it.

And some people would be happy about being in that situation. To say nothing about the people who wouldn't realize it would happen before they're in the situation and then can't stop.

Use it as a bluff and you can frighten people until someone calls your bluff. Then you have to either do nothing or use it as a real threat.

Use it as a real threat and you can either intimidate locals or the gods. If you try to control the gate, the gods unravel the world leaving you with nothing to threaten. If you destroy the gate, you no longer have anything to use as a threat.

Destroying all Gates or doing anything else that may release the Snarl on the Gods (like Redcloak wants to do) results in the world being destroyed.

That means someone who control a Gate could blackmail anyone in the world who doesn't want that to happen.

I don't think you realize how much power "do what I want or I upset the gods enough they blow up the world" is.

So, what am I missing? What 'something' could you use to benefit from controlling access to the gate?

It could be *anything*. Maybe given a decade of access to a Gate, a mage could come up with a "Summon Threads of Reality" spell, for example.

It doesn't even need to actually be possible, it just needs to be plausible enough that people would try.

I submit that if everyone knows about the gate, all about it, the world is safer.

And you are incorrect.

Because everyone knowing means everyone knowing.

Everyone means the incompetent, the fool, the cruel, the omnicidal, the paranoiac, the control freak, the hypochondriac, the greedy, the petty, the delusional, the desperate.

It means people like Eugene Greenhilt, who thought conducting dangerous magic experiments near an unsupervised toddler was just fine.

It means people like Bozzok, who thought paying extra to remove all the safety measures meant to control a golem in order to make said golem more powerful was a great idea that couldn't go wrong.

It means people like Geoff, who thought suffering years of imprisonment and torture and forcing his brother-in-law to suffer alongside him was worth it so long as his son could have a better life.

It means people like the Hobgoblin who pushed Redcloak out of the boulder's way during the Azure City siege, who thought nothing of sacrificing his life so long as his leader survived.

It means people like Therkla, who thought Kubota was worth fighting to keep alive until the moment he poisoned her.

It means people like Haerta Bloodsoak, who thought creating a Epic spell that would kill anyone related to the target, and anyone related to anyone related to the target, was a worthwhile use of her time and ressources.

It means people like Commander Gin-Jun, who would happily kill children so long as it gives him the "glorious war" he wants.

It means people like Nale, who would happily kill children just to indicate where his latest scheme is to his actual targets of his self-acknowledged irrational hatred.

And you're saying that the world would be safer if all of the people with those mindsets and ideals and flaws knew about how the world will be destroyed if five points are hit with enough force?

If all of those people knew about the entity who even the gods are scared off but who *can* be affected by badass enough mortals?


You're giving them just enough knowledge so they can harm themselves and others.

[brian 333]

1) this is once again affirming without evidence that there *is* anyone capable.

Yes, this is obvious. And you are implying without evidence that there is *not*. The difference is, if there *are* people capable of helping, because of the secret they are unaware that they *should*.

2) The Order of the Scribble were more than fine explaining to people how the Gates work and what is at stake, so that those people could help with the defense.

Yes, and no. Where is the knowledge of how to seal a gate? Where is the knowledge that the gods have destroyed many worlds to preserve themselves? Those who shared knowledge carefully selected what knowledge they shared.

What you're holding against them is that they were only fine telling that to people they trusted to be competent, responsible and non-corrupt, rather than telling everyone.

Which is a weird thing to hold against someone.

Yes, because there may be someone in the world capable of putting the smackdown on TE who is unaware that he should. Because there may have been whole teams of people ready and able to save Lirian's gate who didn't know they were in danger. Because even if the OotS wins, who among them knows how to seal a rift?

The problem with telling only trustworthy, competent, responsible, and non-corrupt people is that not only are you relying on a personal judgement as obviously flawed as the one who judges, but that you intentionally exclude everyone else who wants to continue living in the world, who may even be more capable of defending it than your hand-picked few.

And some people would be happy about being in that situation. To say nothing about the people who wouldn't realize it would happen before they're in the situation and then can't stop.

Yes, that's why I put a zipper on my seal. Those who go fooling with it get killed or lose minions, and even better: they attract the attention of everyone who wishes to continue living! In a world of adventurers, the moment a credible threat to the world appears, adventuring parties of every and all alignments will show up to earn some exp and GP.

Only the secret has prevented this from happening to TE.

Destroying all Gates or doing anything else that may release the Snarl on the Gods (like Redcloak wants to do) results in the world being destroyed.

That means someone who control a Gate could blackmail anyone in the world who doesn't want that to happen.

I don't think you realize how much power "do what I want or I upset the gods enough they blow up the world" is.

Yes, blackmail works great when nobody can touch the blackmailer. It paints a target on his back, otherwise. Anyone stupid enough to do that, either as a bluff or as a serious threat, will quickly discover a Therkla in his boudoir every time he tries to go to sleep.

And if it is a super-powerful unkillable abomination who performs the blackmail? So what? The world still exists, people still get to live, and someday a hero will come along.

It could be *anything*. Maybe given a decade of access to a Gate, a mage could come up with a "Summon Threads of Reality" spell, for example.

It doesn't even need to actually be possible, it just needs to be plausible enough that people would try.

And public enough that if they do people notice and stop them. The sane outnumber the crazies at least 10:1. Plus, fooling with a gate for a decade or so is likely to attract the attention of The Snarl. That scenario is specifically why I put in the button, (though I was thinking about the Holey Brotherhood at the time.)

And you are incorrect.

Because everyone knowing means everyone knowing.

Everyone means the incompetent, the fool, the cruel, the omnicidal, the paranoiac, the control freak, the hypochondriac, the greedy, the petty, the delusional, the desperate.

It means people like Eugene Greenhilt, who thought conducting dangerous magic experiments near an unsupervised toddler was just fine.

It means people like Bozzok, who thought paying extra to remove all the safety measures meant to control a golem in order to make said golem more powerful was a great idea that couldn't go wrong.

It means people like Geoff, who thought suffering years of imprisonment and torture and forcing his brother-in-law to suffer alongside him was worth it so long as his son could have a better life.

It means people like the Hobgoblin who pushed Redcloak out of the boulder's way during the Azure City siege, who thought nothing of sacrificing his life so long as his leader survived.

It means people like Therkla, who thought Kubota was worth fighting to keep alive until the moment he poisoned her.

It means people like Haerta Bloodsoak, who thought creating a Epic spell that would kill anyone related to the target, and anyone related to anyone related to the target, was a worthwhile use of her time and ressources.

It means people like Commander Gin-Jun, who would happily kill children so long as it gives him the "glorious war" he wants.

It means people like Nale, who would happily kill children just to indicate where his latest scheme is to his actual targets of his self-acknowledged irrational hatred.

And you're saying that the world would be safer if all of the people with those mindsets and ideals and flaws knew about how the world will be destroyed if five points are hit with enough force?

If all of those people knew about the entity who even the gods are scared off but who *can* be affected by badass enough mortals?


You're giving them just enough knowledge so they can harm themselves and others.

And giving the vast majority who are not those nuts the knowledge they currently lack: that their own existence depends on not letting the nuts do whatever.

And this highlights an important aspect of my position that has been overlooked: currently The OotS has destroyed two and an OotS adjacent character has destroyed a third, because they did not know what they were doing.

Once again, the perceived threat, (world domination by an Evil lich,) caused an actual threat, (risk of releasing the Snarl,) because of the Secret.

Absent The Secret, with knowledge of the rifts, Snarl, and everything commonly available, TE would never have attacked Lirian's gate. Because of The Secret, they are one gate shy of destroying the world.

[Unoriginal]

Absent The Secret, with knowledge of the rifts, Snarl, and everything commonly available, TE would never have attacked Lirian's gate.

That claim is fundamentally incorrect.

Even if they knew everything about how the gods would rather destroy the world than let the Snarl break free, the Dark One would still want to give the Goblinoids an edge over every other creatures, Redcloak would still be a traumatized, sunken-fallacy-prone teenager who hasn't grown since his family was massacred, and Xykon would still be a murderous, impulsive old man who spent his life searching for a way to make sure no one could tell him what to do.

If anything Redcloak would be even more motivated to conquer a Gate to get it out of the hands of any unjustly privileged humanoid who use their position of power to oppress Goblins (which at this point in his life is every humanoid except a Goblin).


You are also rather adamant that either a) no one would bother trying to hold on a Gate because it can only be temporary before someone stops them or b) it doesn't matter if someone temporarily hold the Gate because it will be temporary and then someone will stop them... but everything a mortal does is temporary, and mortals still go through life.

[Tubercular Ox]

I apologize to everyone, I regretted the tone of that post as soon as I made it but the server kept erroring so I didn't know it finished posting.

That's the very thing you are suggesting they should do voluntarily.

I'm still looking for middle ground on this. I'm watching people get closer and closer to rejecting not only help but the usefulness of help. It's starting to sound like people want the first person to find a gate to have sole responsibility for defending it, whether their primary skillset is bashing heads or international politics.

All of the Scribblers found a way to trust other people with the defense of the Gate. I think a mistake they all made was when they let that mission to find others stop.

Girard's family was an insular cult with an extremely cruel method of replenishing their numbers that was bound to bite them on the ass eventually, but there's no indication that they were slipping in terms of effectiveness beyond losing their best caster to old age, and their ultimate doom came from factors entirely outside their control.

Girard's family was perfectly positioned to take over the gate as soon as one of Girard's great grandchildren asked why they weren't using the power of the gate to help the Draketooths. After all, they were saving the world. Is becoming the villain a slip in effectiveness?

The gates need protection not just from the Snarl, and the gods, and all the villains in the world, but also ourselves. None of us are going to live long enough to protect the gates as long as they will need protecting, there needs to be some checks and balances in place. "Maintain sole control, and don't tell anyone what I'm doing," is the opposite of that.

[brian 333]

That claim is fundamentally incorrect.

Even if they knew everything about how the gods would rather destroy the world than let the Snarl break free, the Dark One would still want to give the Goblinoids an edge over every other creatures, Redcloak would still be a traumatized, sunken-fallacy-prone teenager who hasn't grown since his family was massacred, and Xykon would still be a murderous, impulsive old man who spent his life searching for a way to make sure no one could tell him what to do.

If anything Redcloak would be even more motivated to conquer a Gate to get it out of the hands of any unjustly privileged humanoid who use their position of power to oppress Goblins (which at this point in his life is every humanoid except a Goblin).


You are also rather adamant that either a) no one would bother trying to hold on a Gate because it can only be temporary before someone stops them or b) it doesn't matter if someone temporarily hold the Gate because it will be temporary and then someone will stop them... but everything a mortal does is temporary, and mortals still go through life.

TDO still wants to give his people an edge. He thinks, incorrectly, that The Plan can accomplish that. We know that the gods will destroy the world before he can actually accomplish his Plan. If he had all of the facts he would know that and would be trying something else.

Redcloak might still have been traumatized; however, in this case he was specifically traumatized because Soon insisted on keeping the secret. Absent The Secret, there would be no Sapphire Guard running around murdering goblin villages. (Which does not preclude random adventuring parties doing the same, of course.)

And Xykon would likely be dead. More dead than he is now. Without Redcloak needing an arcanist, who would have lichified him?

The idea that anyone would want to control a gate is predicated on the idea that they can do something with it. But this belief is based on a bad assumption, which everyone would be aware of if the gods didn't maintain The Secret. If every High Priest was escorted to the graveyard of worlds, they would know that maintaining the seals is necessary. Any attempt by anyone to use or destroy a gate will be vigorously opposed. By everyone.

So assume someone does want to use a gate. For what? There is literally nothing one can use it for that will gain any benefit, (as Durkon explained to Redcloak.) And before anyone could take control of a gate to teleport it, everyone who does not want to die will stop them. Finally, destroy the world guys might destroy one, maybe two gates before someone stops them.

[Unoriginal]

TDO still wants to give his people an edge. He thinks, incorrectly, that The Plan can accomplish that. We know that the gods will destroy the world before he can actually accomplish his Plan. If he had all of the facts he would know that and would be trying something else.

Redcloak might still have been traumatized; however, in this case he was specifically traumatized because Soon insisted on keeping the secret. Absent The Secret, there would be no Sapphire Guard running around murdering goblin villages. (Which does not preclude random adventuring parties doing the same, of course.)

And Xykon would likely be dead. More dead than he is now. Without Redcloak needing an arcanist, who would have lichified him?

The idea that anyone would want to control a gate is predicated on the idea that they can do something with it. But this belief is based on a bad assumption, which everyone would be aware of if the gods didn't maintain The Secret. If every High Priest was escorted to the graveyard of worlds, they would know that maintaining the seals is necessary. Any attempt by anyone to use or destroy a gate will be vigorously opposed. By everyone.

So assume someone does want to use a gate. For what? There is literally nothing one can use it for that will gain any benefit, (as Durkon explained to Redcloak.) And before anyone could take control of a gate to teleport it, everyone who does not want to die will stop them. Finally, destroy the world guys might destroy one, maybe two gates before someone stops them.

... No offense meant, but I struggle to understand how someone who plays wargames ends up insisting "my plan will definitively survive contact with the enemy", like you're doing.

The idea that giving knowledge to people means they will automatically and rationally act in the collective interest of the world, just because they are part of the world and as such it's also self-intetest to do so, is thoroughly debunked by watching the news for a few minutes (for real life) or reading any OotS page where the titular party interacts with other people (for in-universe). *Some* will do that, but not all, not even most.

Your Perfect Defense would only work if the world was solely populated by lawful neutral examplars. But at this point you could also protect the Gates by putting an OSHA-approved Do Not Touch sign on them.

[Errorname]

Girard's family was perfectly positioned to take over the gate as soon as one of Girard's great grandchildren asked why they weren't using the power of the gate to help the Draketooths. After all, they were saving the world. Is becoming the villain a slip in effectiveness?

But you didn't say 'they might slip', you said they were slipping, which there's no indication of, and frankly I have a hard time imagining the specific scenario you described being the point of failure for the family.

[Unoriginal]

But you didn't say 'they might slip', you said they were slipping, which there's no indication of, and frankly I have a hard time imagining the specific scenario you described being the point of failure for the family.

The point of failure of the Draketooth Clan is more one or several members getting angry at the expectation they will spend all their life staying in a pyramid in the middle of nowhere protecting the legacy of some long-dead authority figure, including seducing someone then leaving them forever once having a kid is secured, and then managing to escape to the rest of the world and spread the knowledge.

[fuschiawarrior]

I see Girard's Gate Defenders so much as a doomsday cult analogue, isolated society on a harsh environment that worships some guy and it's heavily involved with the world destruction, that I was imagined their breaking point would be that some minor skirmish happen which cause them to get increasingly paranoid about the paladins and the idea of losing control of the Gate to them so they decide to blow it up themselves.

[Metastachydium]

TDO still wants to give his people an edge. He thinks, incorrectly, that The Plan can accomplish that. We know that the gods will destroy the world before he can actually accomplish his Plan. If he had all of the facts he would know that and would be trying something else.

There's two tiny little (by which I mean HUGE SUPERMASSIVE) issues with that:
1. no, we don't know the gods will or, for that matter, can destroy the world before he can actually accomplish the Plan. That the "if we all agree on that" clause in Loki's speech (strip no. 998, page no. 2, panel bo. 3) oft cited by myself and others implies the vote must conclude before they can do that. It might not mean that, but so far I haven't seen anyone convincingly demonstrate that this is the case.
2. Plan B, should the Plan fail has always been "destroy the world and gun for better cards next time". Not even the gods are certain Big Purple wouldn't survive the transition, and the possibility is not part of the Gates' lore anthow.

Any attempt by anyone to use or destroy a gate will be vigorously opposed. By everyone.

Except for guys like Tarquin who know (or believe) villains fighting villains is always a toss-up; and people like the Hobgoblins who'd gladly march into certain death just because their Supreme Leader orders it; and any bunch of Undead creeps folks like Hel could field to wreak havoc; and the crazy cults and churches of Fenris and the like who just want to piss on graves and are bored of this iteration anyway; and…

[Provengreil]

There's two tiny little (by which I mean HUGE SUPERMASSIVE) issues with that:
1. no, we don't know the gods will or, for that matter, can destroy the world before he can actually accomplish the Plan. That the "if we all agree on that" clause in Loki's speech (strip no. 998, page no. 2, panel bo. 3) oft cited by myself and others implies the vote must conclude before they can do that. It might not mean that, but so far I haven't seen anyone convincingly demonstrate that this is the case.

If you're looking for hard proof of voting rules, prepare to be disappointed. But you shouldn't need them to evaluate the story as given. Rich gave Loki that line specifically to enforce the idea that the gods are waiting, willing, and able to drop the hammer on the world as soon as RC actually secures a gate OR the gate is destroyed.

[Liquor Box]

I'm still looking for middle ground on this. I'm watching people get closer and closer to rejecting not only help but the usefulness of help. It's starting to sound like people want the first person to find a gate to have sole responsibility for defending it, whether their primary skillset is bashing heads or international politics.

I think you are asking the wrong question here. It's not a question of should the first person to find a gate have sole responsibility for defending it. The question is, if you found the gates in the circumstances the Scribble did, should you publicise their existence or keep them secret.

This isn't about rights or 'who should'. It's about effectiveness. We have an epic party defending the gates, so from that point, is the defence more effective if they let everyone know about the gates, or if they keep them secret. To me, of those two options, secrecy is clearly the better approach.

I don't recall if Serini warned the other Scribbles when she lost the secret of the gates, but I presume she did (it would be a pretty stupid decision not to). So I agree with you from that point. Once the Scribble knew that a powerful threat was aware of the gates, it would have made sense to quietly seek allies (as Shojo ultimately did). But even then, the gates were still secret from most people (and most potential threats), so it would be crazy for the Scribble to make them completely public.

[Tubercular Ox]

But you didn't say 'they might slip', you said they were slipping, which there's no indication of

Normally if you found a group of people practicing parental abduction and grand larceny on an industrial scale, intentionally treating the parents of their own children as prey, you call them evil and be done with it, so maybe you're right, maybe they weren't slipping, maybe they were gone.

I argue that if Girard's family can be trusted to protect people who are worth seducing and abducting children from but not falling in love or forming families, then we really need to consider whether other people who can't fall in love or form families represent an untapped pool of talent we can divert to protecting the gates.

The question is, if you found the gates in the circumstances the Scribble did, should you publicise their existence or keep them secret.

This is exactly the thing I want a middle ground on. Those are not the only two choices.

[Errorname]

Normally if you found a group of people practicing parental abduction and grand larceny on an industrial scale, intentionally treating the parents of their own children as prey, you call them evil and be done with it, so maybe you're right, maybe they weren't slipping, maybe they were gone

They certainly weren't nice people, but that doesn't mean they were ineffective as guardians.

[Provengreil]

Normally if you found a group of people practicing parental abduction and grand larceny on an industrial scale, intentionally treating the parents of their own children as prey, you call them evil and be done with it, so maybe you're right, maybe they weren't slipping, maybe they were gone.

I argue that if Girard's family can be trusted to protect people who are worth seducing and abducting children from but not falling in love or forming families, then we really need to consider whether other people who can't fall in love or form families represent an untapped pool of talent we can divert to protecting the gates.



This is exactly the thing I want a middle ground on. Those are not the only two choices.

I'd say Girard found your middle ground. If you want to call the procreative activities of his clan evil, I'll back you up, but they spread knowledge of the gates to a trusted few that kept to their duty, as far as we could see. In fact they probably had the second best defense of the first four, but that's a different thread topic.

[Somniloquist]

Also Soon. The Sapphire Guard is probably the best middle ground you're going to get - a small but growable group of trusted individuals, based on honor rather than merely blood, who are all in on the secret of the gates and sworn to protect it.

[Errorname]

Also Soon. The Sapphire Guard is probably the best middle ground you're going to get - a small but growable group of trusted individuals, based on honor rather than merely blood, who are all in on the secret of the gates and sworn to protect it.

Unfortunately, at least when Soon was recruiting he was mainly pulling upper class aristocrats, which might have worked okay when he was around to keep everyone in check but it definitely resulted in some real arrogant bastards with a divine mandate to eliminate what they perceived as threats to the gate whose indiscriminate murder of civilian targets is kind of the reason the world is in the current predicament.

That's probably be a worse failure than Girard unintentionally leaving his gate vulnerable to Familicide, a thing he had no way of knowing about or anticipating as a potential threat.

[woweedd]

Unfortunately, at least when Soon was recruiting he was mainly pulling upper class aristocrats, which might have worked okay when he was around to keep everyone in check but it definitely resulted in some real arrogant bastards with a divine mandate to eliminate what they perceived as threats to the gate whose indiscriminate murder of civilian targets is kind of the reason the world is in the current predicament.

That's probably be a worse failure than Girard unintentionally leaving his gate vulnerable to Familicide, a thing he had no way of knowing about or anticipating as a potential threat.

In terms of effectiveness, yes, in terms of morality, though, jesus, Girard is worse.

[Errorname]

In terms of effectiveness, yes, in terms of morality, though, jesus, Girard is worse.

The Draketooth's didn't massacre villages or wipe out entire families, so the Sapphire Guard are still pretty competitive here

[woweedd]

The Draketooth's didn't massacre villages or wipe out entire families, so the Sapphire Guard are still pretty competitive here

OK, fair enough. ON the other hand, massacres were at least not embedded in the fabric of Sapphire Guard operations. But, fair point. I assume, like his comrade, Girard did not condone what his heirs ended up doing. If he did, I struggle to grasp his being Neutral and not Evil.

[Provengreil]

In terms of effectiveness, yes, in terms of morality, though, jesus, Girard is worse.

The Draketooth's didn't massacre villages or wipe out entire families, so the Sapphire Guard are still pretty competitive here

I find these comparisons a bit awkward as I'm not sold that the village attacks were related to the defense of the gates at all. I haven't read all the side stories though, did one of them say/imply that they were actively hunting a threat to the gates? I thought it was just the worst version of what happens when you cross holy warriors and mission creep.

[Errorname]

OK, fair enough. ON the other hand, massacres were at least not embedded in the fabric of Sapphire Guard operations. But, fair point. I assume, like his comrade, Girard did not condone what his heirs ended up doing. If he did, I struggle to grasp his being Neutral and not Evil.

The Draketooth family tree only includes one parent for each generation post the initial dragon/human coupling, so it wouldn't surprise me if Girard himself was a product of the practice.

I find these comparisons a bit awkward as I'm not sold that the village attacks were related to the defense of the gates at all. I haven't read all the side stories though, did one of them say/imply that they were actively hunting a threat to the gates? I thought it was just the worst version of what happens when you cross holy warriors and mission creep.

They were hunting the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. The raid depicted in Start of Darkness eliminated Redcloak's mentor and predecessor in the role, and the raid in How the Paladin got his Scar was them chasing a dead end after failing to secure the Mantle itself in the earlier raid. There's a lot of senseless collateral in both raids, but the ultimate target is indisputably a serious threat to the gate.

[brian 333]

The Draketooth family tree only includes one parent for each generation post the initial dragon/human coupling, so it wouldn't surprise me if Girard himself was a product of the practice.

The last panel on this page shows Girard as the middle child of the middle child of The dragon. He is the one with the halo. So he is at least 1/4 dragon.

The presence of the human spouse to the dragon on that chart implies a relatively equal relationship, but the absence of the other spouses could simply be for clarity. Even in Girard's generation there would have been at least six spouses, and if each of Girard's children had a different mother, that would be three extra spouses. The family tree would be far more complicated and difficult to decipher.

This does not invalidate the hypothesis, but it may offer an alternate one.

[Errorname]

The presence of the human spouse to the dragon on that chart implies a relatively equal relationship, but the absence of the other spouses could simply be for clarity. Even in Girard's generation there would have been at least six spouses, and if each of Girard's children had a different mother, that would be three extra spouses. The family tree would be far more complicated and difficult to decipher.

I couldn't even imagine taking my mom off of the family tree just for the sake of reducing visual complexity. You'd think if these were beloved members of the family, they'd be treated as such.