A Perfect Defense!

[Metastachydium]

Rich gave Loki that line specifically to enforce the idea that the gods are waiting, willing, and able to drop the hammer on the world as soon as RC actually secures a gate OR the gate is destroyed.

[Citation needed.]

[Tubercular Ox]

mission creep.

Yes! This is the word I need. I'm worried about where mission creep goes for people who have already decided mom is a nonperson without a right to raise her own kids or keep her own property. They have no empathy for the people they're nominally protecting. That is bad.

It's easy for people here to see the problem with Tarquin. Tarquin would be a great gate guardian. We've already seen him put keeping the world safe above personal objectives, he has experience with both politics and dungeon diving, he knows how to keep a secret, and he makes plans for what will happen after he's gone. But he's always high on the list of people we need to keep the gate from because he has no empathy for the people he's protecting and we don't trust him not to change his mind down the road and bend the gate to serve his own ends.

The Draketooths are worse. They're a Stanford prison experiment waiting to happen. If they are effective guardians, then Tarquin is more effective because he represents the same risk but is more competent at the skillset.

I'd say Girard found your middle ground ... they spread knowledge of the gates to a trusted few that kept to their duty, as far as we could see.

I had a think:

Secrecy is volatile, you can lose it at any moment through no fault of your own. Therefore every plan that relies on a secret must have a backup plan for when the secret fails. The longer your secret must be active, the more important this plan. The gates need to be protected for the rest of forever, it's criminal not to have a backup plan.

Secrecy is expensive, and yet does not have a price tag. You never know if you are spending enough on secrecy, and the temptation is always to spend more. It is easy to get into a situation when you are spending more on the secret than you can afford, but you cannot stop spending because you forgot to make a backup plan, and now you can't afford to prepare one.

The gates need to be protected for the rest of forever. If your backup plan is not sustainable, you need a better back up plan. If your back up plan is sustainable, you really need to look very hard at why you're keeping the secret. Is it cheaper? What are you doing with the savings? Maybe you could spend it on making the back up plan more affordable?

The trajectory of every secret is exposure, and victory is when you find a way to stop caring if the secret is exposed. So the middle ground is when you don't expose the secret, but work towards a day when exposure doesn't matter.

Everyone failed. Everyone decided there was a size of secret they were comfortable with and committed to sustaining that for the rest of forever.

[OvisCaedo]

Everyone DID have backup plans. Everyone DID have allies or communities who were let in on enough of the secret to be trusted to furthering its defense. Keeping the rifts in reality a secret has never looked to be "too expensive" from what we've seen in comic. The Scribblers all seemingly spent pretty much everything they had on the defenses, and then made the free choice of "let's not tell anyone about this unnecessarily".

Dorukan's tower was thoroughly staffed, Lirian had a druidic grove full of allied creatures (from what I've gathered? I've not read Start of Darkness.), Soon had an entire paladin order, Girard had the whole family thing (which was, of course, morally dubious for various other reasons), Serini's got hundreds of dungeons stocked full of volunteer guardians.

Did they all eventually fail? Yes. But there's not much evidence to argue confidently that telling everyone about the gates would have netted more benefits to their protection than it would have caused villains to attack. (or, you know, the gods stepping in because it's their biggest secret.)

[brian 333]

Everyone DID have backup plans. Everyone DID have allies or communities who were let in on enough of the secret to be trusted to furthering its defense. Keeping the rifts in reality a secret has never looked to be "too expensive" from what we've seen in comic. The Scribblers all seemingly spent pretty much everything they had on the defenses, and then made the free choice of "let's not tell anyone about this unnecessarily".

Dorukan's tower was thoroughly staffed, Lirian had a druidic grove full of allied creatures (from what I've gathered? I've not read Start of Darkness.), Soon had an entire paladin order, Girard had the whole family thing (which was, of course, morally dubious for various other reasons), Serini's got hundreds of dungeons stocked full of volunteer guardians.

Did they all eventually fail? Yes. But there's not much evidence to argue confidently that telling everyone about the gates would have netted more benefits to their protection than it would have caused villains to attack. (or, you know, the gods stepping in because it's their biggest secret.)

You are correct, there is not much evidence. It was not tried, so it cannot be known how successful or not it might have been.

What I do know is that in a world of adventurers, building sacred groves, dungeons, and pyramids in the desert will eventually attract adventurers, and the throne in a room full of bickering, power-hungry nobles will eventually be inside the area of effect of a spell.

What is needed is a reason for power-hungry madmen to not destroy the gates.

Letting those who are too dumb to listen to fair warning look inside both eliminates the ones dumb enough to not read or believe the warning, and demonstrates to everyone else that the danger is real. Letting everyone else know that only global destruction can be accomplished by fooling with the gates stops everyone but a tiny minority from fooling with them, and strongly incentivizes the majority to quickly eliminate the few suicidal idiots who want to take the world with them.

Posters keep claiming that the gates give the ones who control them power. I disagree. If everyone knew what they are, everyone would know that there is only one use to which they may be put: to destroy the world. That's not power, that's painting a target on the back of whoever makes the threat.

And if that individual is powerful enough to defeat anyone or any group that attacks him, why does he need the gate? He can do global suicide all by himself already.

The only reason The Plan had a chance is because nobody knew they should do something when gates started to be destroyed.

The objection here is that we don't know of anyone able to take out Team Evil.

This is true, but if they do exist, they don't even know their existence is in danger because of The Secret. If they do not exist, why does TE need a gate? They already have the power to do whatever they want. What they don't know, (or believe,) is that what they seek to do will not, and cannot, achieve their stated goals.

[Provengreil]

Yes! This is the word I need. I'm worried about where mission creep goes for people who have already decided mom is a nonperson without a right to raise her own kids or keep her own property. They have no empathy for the people they're nominally protecting. That is bad.

It's easy for people here to see the problem with Tarquin. Tarquin would be a great gate guardian. We've already seen him put keeping the world safe above personal objectives, he has experience with both politics and dungeon diving, he knows how to keep a secret, and he makes plans for what will happen after he's gone. But he's always high on the list of people we need to keep the gate from because he has no empathy for the people he's protecting and we don't trust him not to change his mind down the road and bend the gate to serve his own ends.

The Draketooths are worse. They're a Stanford prison experiment waiting to happen. If they are effective guardians, then Tarquin is more effective because he represents the same risk but is more competent at the skillset.

The way I see it, the difference between Girard's clan and Tarquin is respect of the Snarl. Tarquin doesn't respect the Snarl and so would attempt to exploit the gate somehow, but the Draketooths do and are content to bury it and never touch. I feel like this respect is what Brian's publicity plan is all about, making sure everyone knows just how dangerous mucking about with the gate actually is.

They were hunting the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. The raid depicted in Start of Darkness eliminated Redcloak's mentor and predecessor in the role, and the raid in How the Paladin got his Scar was them chasing a dead end after failing to secure the Mantle itself in the earlier raid. There's a lot of senseless collateral in both raids, but the ultimate target is indisputably a serious threat to the gate.

I'm not so sure about that though. I lost my copy of SoD years ago and never read HPS so I'm admittedly running from partial memory, but I remember the paladins being pretty gobsmacked to actually find the cloak. Then when they killed its owner, they made no attempt whatsoever to secure it, to the point that Redcloak looted it, wore it, had the plan beamed into his thinkmeats, staggered off very unsubtly, got shaken out of it, and slinked away all entirely unnoticed. It just doesn't really click for me that the cloak was the target of the raid.

[Errorname]

I'm not so sure about that though. I lost my copy of SoD years ago and never read HPS so I'm admittedly running from partial memory, but I remember the paladins being pretty gobsmacked to actually find the cloak. Then when they killed its owner, they made no attempt whatsoever to secure it, to the point that Redcloak looted it, wore it, had the plan beamed into his thinkmeats, staggered off very unsubtly, got shaken out of it, and slinked away all entirely unnoticed. It just doesn't really click for me that the cloak was the target of the raid.

The main villain in GDGU participated in that raid, and gives a Sapphire Guard perspective on the events.

We had it in our grasp! We won! We defeated him soundly! But back then we didn't know it was the Mantle itself that was our enemy. We thought the red cloak was merely a symbol of office—that it didn’t matter what happened to it as long as the creature wearing it was dealt with.

I even remember some of my compatriots actually congratulating themselves on not being so vain as to collect the cloak as a trophy. A little more vanity might have saved the world!

[Unoriginal]

What is needed is a reason for power-hungry madmen to not destroy the gates.

Power-hungry madmen do not care about reason.

That's why they're power-hungry madmen and not power-hungry reasonmen.

Letting everyone else know that only global destruction can be accomplished by fooling with the gates stops everyone but a tiny minority from fooling with them

Because people always believe what they're told about worldwide threats, aside from a tiny, inconsequencial minority.

and strongly incentivizes the majority to quickly eliminate the few suicidal idiots who want to take the world with them.

Because the majority always stands up to the few abusers who have power.

Always.

That's not power, that's painting a target on the back of whoever makes the threat.

Painting a target on a back IS power, if you're smart enough about it.

[Provengreil]

The main villain in GDGU participated in that raid, and gives a Sapphire Guard perspective on the events.

Fair enough, I stand corrected.

[OvisCaedo]

All I'm saying is, if I had been at that rift with my party, it wouldn't have went down like it did.

[gbaji]

Lots of stuff since I last posted. Just a few points about what I think is a misconception:

They believe that gaining control of the gate will allow them to blackmail the gods, but if they knew The Secret they would know that before they can gain control of the gate the gods will have pulled the rug, (and the world,) from under their feet.

Knowing that literally all one can do with a gate is destabilize existence, one is faced with meekly accepting death, or raining destruction and carnage on those who seek to wreck the world. Few Evil folks will choose A if they have a choice. The world is where they get to do their best Eviling.

Use the gate for what? We already know that Redcloak's (and TDO's) Plan is a bust. The Gods will unravel the world before their Ritual can be completed.

The only thing anyone can do with a gate is to make powerful beings angry and afraid enough to gang up an gank them.

The idea that one can 'do something' with the gates is based on knowing about the rifts and the Snarl, but not knowing that the greater danger is what the gods will do if threatened. Otherwise, it is as useful as a one-wheeled garbage truck.

Take control of a gate for what? See, he currently mistakenly believes he can use the Snarl like a big weapon: aim it, fire it, reload, repeat.

You've made the same statement several different ways here, but I don't think it's correct. Just because Redcloak is actually lying to Xykon about what the ritual does, and that it actually gives TDO the power to move the gate, does not mean that it's impossible to "do something else" with a gate.

You keep insisting (and your entire argument rests on this asssumption) that there is nothing anyone can do with a gate except destroy it and release the snarl, and no one would do that since that would force the gods to destroy the world.

My point, which you managed to completely ignore somehow, is that Xykon would not believe Redcloak's lie if "use the gate to make myself super powerful and control the world" wasn't something that was actually possible, with the right magical research and skill. You seem to completely discount this as even being a possiblity, despite absolutely zero evidence in the strip that harnessing a gate as some sort of magical power source (or some other use, that doesn't involve destroying said gate and releasing the snarl) is impossible. Yet, as I stated earlier and have just re-stated, if this was actually absolutely impossible, and something that is so obviously impossible that someone merely reading the strip, with no actually magical ability himself, can make such a statement, then you'd think Xykon would have known this as well.

Let's just go out on a limb and assume that Xykon has a better idea of what is possible with magic in the Stickverse than you do, and he certainly thinks that it's possible to "do something" with a gate.

It's reasonable to assume that other powerful spell casters in the Stickverse would also believe this was possible. And if enough of them know about the gates and the rifts and the snarl, then a whole lot of them are going to commit a whole lot of time to trying to figure out how to use them to "do something". And, just due to sheer numbers and statistics, there are good odds that one of them will succeed at some point.

Durokan and Liran, two powerful spellcasters with no prior knowledge of rifts in the universe, and the snarl, still managed to study them and figure out how to seal them. They then further researched how to create the gates which hold the seals in place. They managed to do all of that, despite "create rift seal" and "create rift gate" not actually existing as spells in D&D. It's reasonable to assume that other magic spells and enchantments could be researched related to these things as well. Yet, your entire argument rests on this just simply not being possible at all.

I don't find that convincing at all.

The Secret is that the rifts are sealed to keep a world-eating, god-destroying entity caged, and that the gods have many, many, many times destroyed the world to salvage as much as they can before it gets loose again.

No. That's not the secret. We have zero evidence that the scribblers ever knew that this wasn't the second world the gods created.

The scribblers could not have revealed information to the public that they, themselves, didn't actually know. So all they could have told everyone was the same information that Shojo revealed to the Order. Which was that these gates were holding seals in place, which kept rifts at bay, which contained the snarl. So... basically the same information that TE has, and which hasn't prevented them from trying to take control of a gate. So.... why assume this same knowledge would prevent others from doing so?

Again. Both members of TE certainly believe that they can take control of a gate and perform a ritual and that the gods will not destroy the world as a result. Note, that nowhere in the story was "and if the gates are controlled by evil people, the gods will destroy the world" ever mentioned. Only that if the snarl is released, it will destroy the world. Sereni actually seemed quite surprised that the gods were ready to destroy the world just based on what has happened so far. So it's likely the scribblers were not aware of this at all. The information that the gods were aware of what the Scribblers were doing and allowed them to continue, to see if their plan would work, was only revealed to Roy and Durkon at the godsmoot. There's no evidence that the Scribblers knew any of this.

If what Durkon knows was common knowledge, only the suicidal would want to take control of a gate. And all they could accomplish by doing so is to destroy one gate before everyone else granted their wish and rebuilt the gate they destroyed.

Except that no one trying to control any of the gates has actually tried to destroy them. The folks defending them have, to keep them out of TE's hands (or just accidentally). Again, you seem unwilling to accept that the evil people would want to control gates, and keep them intact, so they could study and use them in some other way. Destroying the gates so as to release the snarl is *not* the only thing that can be doine with a gate.

My plan is based on the knowledge that the only result of controlling a gate is to cause everyone else in the world to assess the degree of threat that person represents, and to take action to eliminate that threat

How is that any different from the reaction to any other world conquering evil type person assumes will occur? And yet, such people still go about plotting their evil schemes to conquer the world, don't they? When ever did the bbeg just say "Well. Gosh. If I try to take over the world, everyone will try to stop me, so I guess I should not try"? Never, right?

No. I don't care about Redcloak lying to Xykon. That will sort itself out in time. The only secrets I'm talking about are the ones involving what the rifts are, what is on the other side of them, and how many times the gods have destroyed a world or hid while the Snarl destroyed it.

So, now you are changing your plan from "Scribblers reveal everything they know about the snarl, rifts, and gates" to "the gods reveal everything they know about the snarl and every world that has been created and destroyed for the last several million years". That's some serious goalpost moving right there.

If you're looking for hard proof of voting rules, prepare to be disappointed. But you shouldn't need them to evaluate the story as given. Rich gave Loki that line specifically to enforce the idea that the gods are waiting, willing, and able to drop the hammer on the world as soon as RC actually secures a gate OR the gate is destroyed.

I'm also going to ask for a citation on that. I don't recall any of the gods actually stating that they would or could destroy the world as a result of RC securing a gate. The contingency that they were talking about was if the final gate was destroyed, and the snarl was released, that they could destroy the world at that point (instead of just destroying it immediately). There was no mention of RC completing the ritual on a gate as a trigger for anything.

I know that a lot of posters assume that this must be the case, since clearly the snarl being released in an outer plane must be seen as a greater threat to the gods, but it's unclear if that's actually true. I mean, it would be true for any gods physically present in that outer plane at the time, and it would probably wipe out all of the mortal souls in that plane. And that would certainly be "bad", but it may not be totally catastrophic, especially for the 8/9ths of the gods who don't call that their home plane.

We just don't know enough to make any assumptions here. And the gods did not say anything about it either.

[Unoriginal]

Let's just go out on a limb and assume that Xykon has a better idea of what is possible with magic in the Stickverse than you do, and he certainly thinks that it's possible to "do something" with a gate.

It's reasonable to assume that other powerful spell casters in the Stickverse would also believe this was possible. And if enough of them know about the gates and the rifts and the snarl, then a whole lot of them are going to commit a whole lot of time to trying to figure out how to use them to "do something". And, just due to sheer numbers and statistics, there are good odds that one of them will succeed at some point.

Durokan and Liran, two powerful spellcasters with no prior knowledge of rifts in the universe, and the snarl, still managed to study them and figure out how to seal them. They then further researched how to create the gates which hold the seals in place. They managed to do all of that, despite "create rift seal" and "create rift gate" not actually existing as spells in D&D. It's reasonable to assume that other magic spells and enchantments could be researched related to these things as well. Yet, your entire argument rests on this just simply not being possible at all.

I don't find that convincing at all.

Indeed.

Sereni actually seemed quite surprised that the gods were ready to destroy the world just based on what has happened so far. So it's likely the scribblers were not aware of this at all. The information that the gods were aware of what the Scribblers were doing and allowed them to continue, to see if their plan would work, was only revealed to Roy and Durkon at the godsmoot. There's no evidence that the Scribblers knew any of this.

Shojo said the Order of the Scribble was afraid the gods would take matter into their own hands, before they secured all the rifts. Serini, in her own words, forgot that the god were active participants in the affair because she hadn't hung out with a Druid in a long time. So she just assumed they wouldn't jump the gun this time either.

[hroþila]

Even if it was true that the gates can't be used for any other purposes AND everybody in the world knew and believed that, the gates would still be the obvious target for anyone aiming to destroy the world. And there is no shortage of such people in this universe

[KorvinStarmast]

[Citation needed.]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html

Given what we learned about how many times they have been through this before, Loki is a credible source for that.

[Unoriginal]

[Citation needed.]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html

Given what we learned about how many times they have been through this before, Loki is a credible source for that.

Indeed.

Loki is saying "if we all agree on giving the mortals one more chance to fix the mess and the Snarl breaks out anyway, we have the time to pull the plug". Not "we can't pull the plug unless we all agree at the Godsmoot, even if the Snarl breaks out

[brian 333]

Lots of stuff since I last posted. Just a few points about what I think is a misconception:



You've made the same statement several different ways here, but I don't think it's correct. Just because Redcloak is actually lying to Xykon about what the ritual does, and that it actually gives TDO the power to move the gate, does not mean that it's impossible to "do something else" with a gate.

You keep insisting (and your entire argument rests on this asssumption) that there is nothing anyone can do with a gate except destroy it and release the snarl, and no one would do that since that would force the gods to destroy the world.

My point, which you managed to completely ignore somehow, is that Xykon would not believe Redcloak's lie if "use the gate to make myself super powerful and control the world" wasn't something that was actually possible, with the right magical research and skill. You seem to completely discount this as even being a possiblity, despite absolutely zero evidence in the strip that harnessing a gate as some sort of magical power source (or some other use, that doesn't involve destroying said gate and releasing the snarl) is impossible. Yet, as I stated earlier and have just re-stated, if this was actually absolutely impossible, and something that is so obviously impossible that someone merely reading the strip, with no actually magical ability himself, can make such a statement, then you'd think Xykon would have known this as well.

Let's just go out on a limb and assume that Xykon has a better idea of what is possible with magic in the Stickverse than you do, and he certainly thinks that it's possible to "do something" with a gate.

It's reasonable to assume that other powerful spell casters in the Stickverse would also believe this was possible. And if enough of them know about the gates and the rifts and the snarl, then a whole lot of them are going to commit a whole lot of time to trying to figure out how to use them to "do something". And, just due to sheer numbers and statistics, there are good odds that one of them will succeed at some point.

Durokan and Liran, two powerful spellcasters with no prior knowledge of rifts in the universe, and the snarl, still managed to study them and figure out how to seal them. They then further researched how to create the gates which hold the seals in place. They managed to do all of that, despite "create rift seal" and "create rift gate" not actually existing as spells in D&D. It's reasonable to assume that other magic spells and enchantments could be researched related to these things as well. Yet, your entire argument rests on this just simply not being possible at all.

I don't find that convincing at all.

Having repeatedly asked what that 'something else' might be and receiving no answer, I do not feel that it is fair to say that I have completely ignored the point.

The closest thing to an answer that I have heard is to somehow use it to manipulate the strands of reality. They already have that; it's called 'magic.'

No. That's not the secret. We have zero evidence that the scribblers ever knew that this wasn't the second world the gods created.

The scribblers could not have revealed information to the public that they, themselves, didn't actually know. So all they could have told everyone was the same information that Shojo revealed to the Order. Which was that these gates were holding seals in place, which kept rifts at bay, which contained the snarl. So... basically the same information that TE has, and which hasn't prevented them from trying to take control of a gate. So.... why assume this same knowledge would prevent others from doing so?

Again. Both members of TE certainly believe that they can take control of a gate and perform a ritual and that the gods will not destroy the world as a result. Note, that nowhere in the story was "and if the gates are controlled by evil people, the gods will destroy the world" ever mentioned. Only that if the snarl is released, it will destroy the world. Sereni actually seemed quite surprised that the gods were ready to destroy the world just based on what has happened so far. So it's likely the scribblers were not aware of this at all. The information that the gods were aware of what the Scribblers were doing and allowed them to continue, to see if their plan would work, was only revealed to Roy and Durkon at the godsmoot. There's no evidence that the Scribblers knew any of this.

What The Scribblers knew is irrelevant. They should have made what they knew public. Every cleric who sought to verify or refute what they claimed would have asked their gods, and absent 'The Secret,' would have been answered.

It is rather easy to explain. Minrah and Durkon got the whole story in half-a-dozen strips.

Except that no one trying to control any of the gates has actually tried to destroy them. The folks defending them have, to keep them out of TE's hands (or just accidentally). Again, you seem unwilling to accept that the evil people would want to control gates, and keep them intact, so they could study and use them in some other way. Destroying the gates so as to release the snarl is *not* the only thing that can be doine with a gate.

So an Evil guy studies a gate but keeps it intact. Great. Enjoy. The world is safe.

As I have said many times, Good and Evil characters have a vested interest in keeping the gates intact, so I am not worried if Evil Guy has control of a gate. As soon as anyone, Good or Evil or Vanilla or Antispin, starts to actively try to do something to the gate, everyone should know so that anyone capable of stopping him knows it is time to do something about it. But study it? That's a great idea. Maybe he'll come up with a better gate design.

How is that any different from the reaction to any other world conquering evil type person assumes will occur? And yet, such people still go about plotting their evil schemes to conquer the world, don't they? When ever did the bbeg just say "Well. Gosh. If I try to take over the world, everyone will try to stop me, so I guess I should not try"? Never, right?

Yes, the only difference is, so long as knowledge of the gates is secret, nobody knows that they should stop him or die trying.

BBEGs try to take over the world as often as Pinky and the Brain, and sooner or later someone comes along to topple them. The issue here is knowing that BBEG can actually cause the world's destruction. Oops, nobody knows because it is a secret. Oh well, guess we wait for Random Hero to come along in a few generations.

So, now you are changing your plan from "Scribblers reveal everything they know about the snarl, rifts, and gates" to "the gods reveal everything they know about the snarl and every world that has been created and destroyed for the last several million years". That's some serious goalpost moving right there.

This is not moving the goalpost. This is common sense. The Scribblers tell what they know, those who do not believe ask the gods, the gods answer, knowledge proliferates. Because of The Secret,' nobody ever asks.

I'm also going to ask for a citation on that. I don't recall any of the gods actually stating that they would or could destroy the world as a result of RC securing a gate. The contingency that they were talking about was if the final gate was destroyed, and the snarl was released, that they could destroy the world at that point (instead of just destroying it immediately). There was no mention of RC completing the ritual on a gate as a trigger for anything.

I know that a lot of posters assume that this must be the case, since clearly the snarl being released in an outer plane must be seen as a greater threat to the gods, but it's unclear if that's actually true. I mean, it would be true for any gods physically present in that outer plane at the time, and it would probably wipe out all of the mortal souls in that plane. And that would certainly be "bad", but it may not be totally catastrophic, especially for the 8/9ths of the gods who don't call that their home plane.

We just don't know enough to make any assumptions here. And the gods did not say anything about it either.

We know enough to know that none of the gods want The Snarl finding where they live. And according to Loki, it takes fifteen minutes to undo the world.

I could be wrong, of course, but none of the gods seem particularly suicidal.

[Unoriginal]

Having repeatedly asked what that 'something else' might be and receiving no answer, I do not feel that it is fair to say that I have completely ignored the point.

You've not completely ignored the point, you've completely ignored the answers when people told you about the "something else".

You want us to speculate more about what can be done? Fine, let's speculate:

Fact 1: we know that mortals can create a barrier that resists the Snarl, at least for a time.

Fact 2: by creating barriers with an opening, it is possible to make what is contained within the barrier take a specific path. Like a mouse in a maze, or water in a tube.

Fact 3: Some people in the OotS-verse can open portals connecting point A to point Z without going through any of the points in-between. Even if point A and Z are on different planes of existence.

Conclusion: it's theoretically possible to create a "tube" with "walls" that can contain the Snarl for a while, and have a portal at one end of said tube, letting someone do precisely targeted strikes with the soul-annihilating abomination.

Since the person doing that live in the world as described in your OP, they just have to put one of those tube+portal in front of your Zipper Gate, unzip it open, and wait for the Snarl to try to grab the thing outside.

The closest thing to an answer that I have heard is to somehow use it to manipulate the strands of reality. They already have that; it's called 'magic.'

I said the Threads of Reality.

Maybe you haven't ignored the answers, then, you've just misinterpreted them into something easily dismissable with a "they have magic already".

What The Scribblers knew is irrelevant.

It certainly is not, given you're judging them as inefficient for acting on what they knew.

They should have made what they knew public.

This thesis has not been demonstrated.

So an Evil guy studies a gate but keeps it intact. Great. Enjoy. The world is safe.

Safe under the power of an evil guy.

What a joy.

As I have said many times, Good and Evil characters have a vested interest in keeping the gates intact

And as you've been told many times in answer to that, that assumes that people act to further their own interests in a rational manner.

A lot of people don't do that.

BBEGs try to take over the world as often as Pinky and the Brain, and sooner or later someone comes along to topple them.

That doesn't make "living under the BBEG's rule until someone come along" a pleasant perspective.

This is not moving the goalpost. This is common sense. The Scribblers tell what they know, those who do not believe ask the gods, the gods answer, knowledge proliferates.

Once again, you are affirming that your plan would definitively survive contact with the enemy.

How about:

-The gods answer, people don't believe the answer. Knowledge withers on the vine.

-The gods answer, people believe the answer, but that make a large quantity of them lose their faith in the gods. The gods grow weaker from the lack of faith, meaning their quiddities weakens, and a few generations down the road the Snarl can break through the prison again. Knowledge destroys the prison.

-The gods give different answers, possibly smiting the one who ask for daring to do it. Different religions fight and debate about which answer is true. Knowledge remains uncertain.

-The gods refuse to answer, because the ones who want to tell the mortals are outnumbered by those who don't want to tell the mortals and they held up a vote to decide how to handle the situation. Knowledge is not acquired.

-The gods hold up a vote to decide how to handle the situation, and the number of gods who think the world shouldn't be allowed to continue now that so many mortals know about the Snarl is bigger than the number of gods who are fine with that new status quo, so the gods destroy the world. Knowledge results in judgement day.

All those are very real possibilities you're refusing to acknowledge because you think there is one right way to do things and not only that all the other ways are wrong, but that no one will do those wrong ways if they knew the one right way.

We know enough to know that none of the gods want The Snarl finding where they live. And according to Loki, it takes fifteen minutes to undo the world.

No, according to Loki it takes 15 minutes for the Snarl to breaks out once the last Gate is gone.

[Errorname]

So an Evil guy studies a gate but keeps it intact. Great. Enjoy. The world is safe.

Evil guy trying to harness the gate's power to do evil things is likely to lead to conflict that might destroy the gate, even if he's not risking the fate of the world, which I am not convinced he wouldn't be

The gates so far have been defended with the understanding that "destroy it" is a better plan than allowing it to fall into enemy hands, which makes me think using the gates to harness the power of the Snarl is possible

[ShadowSandbag]

Virtually none of the supposed benefits of secrecy ever actually happen, but secrets allow nefarious behavior to go unopposed. If the gates had not been a secret, any three epic characters showing up after Lirian's gate was destroyed could have saved the other four from danger. And that is all the secret of the gates ever achieved.

You've mentioned the existence of these other Epic Characters a few times. But we have not seen any evidence of epic characters outside of The Scribblers and Xykon. And there have been events that should have called Epic level character's attention. The fall of a major capital city to an epic level lich is the sort of thing that is just begging Good Epic characters to intervene, if they exist. If there were any Epic Level clerics or other divine people, you would think they would have been at least mentioned at the godsmoot. It's impossible to prove that there are not any Epic level characters in the world, but its impossible to prove the absence of just about anything. If you have any evidence that even implies the existence of other Epic characters, i would love to see it.

Having repeatedly asked what that 'something else' might be and receiving no answer, I do not feel that it is fair to say that I have completely ignored the point.

The closest thing to an answer that I have heard is to somehow use it to manipulate the strands of reality. They already have that; it's called 'magic.'

Sure; here is an example for you. Something else someone can do with the gates.

ShadowSandbag's Snarling Strength

Level: Clr 1, Pal 1, Brd 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Self
Duration: Forever

This spell raises the user to permanent Overdeity status.
Material Component
A gate leading to the Snarl. The gate is not used, harmed or altered in the casting of this spell.
This material component may not be replaced or replicated in any way, even by Wish.

Is that a good enough answer to that question for you?

[Tubercular Ox]

But there's not much evidence to argue confidently that telling everyone about the gates would have netted more benefits to their protection than it would have caused villains to attack. (or, you know, the gods stepping in because it's their biggest secret.)

This is someone else. I'm the guy who just said you don't expose the secret. I said things after that but they don't change the game enough that I can sit still and let this opinion be assigned to me.

The way I see it, the difference between Girard's clan and Tarquin is respect of the Snarl. Tarquin doesn't respect the Snarl and so would attempt to exploit the gate somehow, but the Draketooths do and are content to bury it and never touch. I feel like this respect is what Brian's publicity plan is all about, making sure everyone knows just how dangerous mucking about with the gate actually is.

Sure, okay, fair point. I wasn't considering the cost of transition at all, I was just picturing Tarquin as having been in Girard's place.

But Girard's family is guarding a giant brick that says, "Sorry, your gate is in another pyramid." If they were allowed to persist, then at some point they would run out of people who actually saw the gate. Or knew Girard. At some point Girard is a legend and not a family member, and you can only trust family.

Personal experience is a fleeting advantage and you need a good plan for transmission that competes with the need for secrecy. The more of one you have, the less of the other. I'm not saying you can't have both, I'm just saying that there are now two ways to screw up instead of one: loss of secrecy and loss of transmission.

But, tangent, you're the guy who said we need to hook up to the laws of drama that drive OotSworld. So think of it this way: Do you want to be the impossible dungeon that someone eventually conquers, or the impossible quest that someone eventually completes? Pushing to make the gates unnecessary puts us on the right side of drama.

[Provengreil]

This is someone else. I'm the guy who just said you don't expose the secret. I said things after that but they don't change the game enough that I can sit still and let this opinion be assigned to me.



Sure, okay, fair point. I wasn't considering the cost of transition at all, I was just picturing Tarquin as having been in Girard's place.

But Girard's family is guarding a giant brick that says, "Sorry, your gate is in another pyramid." If they were allowed to persist, then at some point they would run out of people who actually saw the gate. Or knew Girard. At some point Girard is a legend and not a family member, and you can only trust family.

Personal experience is a fleeting advantage and you need a good plan for transmission that competes with the need for secrecy. The more of one you have, the less of the other. I'm not saying you can't have both, I'm just saying that there are now two ways to screw up instead of one: loss of secrecy and loss of transmission.

You're not wrong, but Tarquin would have a similar problem unless the plan is to hand it over to Malack.

Also, Girard's clan could probably head that off with a field trip to the gate every now and then via passwall? Maybe as a right of passage, they get to see that the gate is real?

But, tangent, you're the guy who said we need to hook up to the laws of drama that drive OotSworld. So think of it this way: Do you want to be the impossible dungeon that someone eventually conquers, or the impossible quest that someone eventually completes? Pushing to make the gates unnecessary puts us on the right side of drama.

Failing to make the gates unnecessary contains more drama. That way there's always that lever, that end-of-the-world goal for someone. Using the impossible dungeon to buy time for the impossible quest is repeatable.

TBH though, I stopped posting along those lines because found this thread flawed in concept. There aren't limits save what we pretend exist for our own made up rift and gate. As such, it's less an optimization exercise and more a creative writing one. A much better ask would be to ask how one single epic character of a given class would protect a specific gate already in the story.

What's the more interesting question? Is it:

1. You have a rift with a gate that no one can ever be allowed to seize. How will you defend with whatever resources you can imagine, with whatever magics you can dream up, in whatever circumstances you care to write?

OR

2. You have a rift with a gate that no one can ever be allowed to seize. You have a single class epic character, about twice their expected wealth, your old team mostly hates you, the surrounding region is canyons and, surrounding that, just desert. The local polities are unstable and power hungry, quite likely to attempt to capture the gate and use it somehow rather than defend it. What do?

[Anymage]

I'll just leave this here.. (Also, first two panels of 282.)

[Metastachydium]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html

Given what we learned about how many times they have been through this before, Loki is a credible source for that.

Indeed.

Loki is saying "if we all agree on giving the mortals one more chance to fix the mess and the Snarl breaks out anyway, we have the time to pull the plug". Not "we can't pull the plug unless we all agree at the Godsmoot, even if the Snarl breaks out

Yes, now that two more people are telling me the strip where Loki doesn't say what you say he says can only mean he means what you say he means, I'm suddenly convinced that is the one possible and valid reading of the line.

[Provengreil]

Yes, now that two more people are telling me the strip where Loki doesn't say what you say he says can only mean he means what you say he means, I'm suddenly convinced that is the one possible and valid reading of the line.

Not the only possible one, but it's a valid, reasonable understanding of the words.

It strongly implies that the gods can scoop the world in an extremely short timeframe. The vote to destroy the world was deadlocked as is, if the situation gets worse you can bet the vote will pass. Don't forget that Thor has already worked out the plan, and I find it unlikely no other gods have.

So yeah. I put these facts together and come to the conclusion that if Redcloak has any apparent chance of actually conducting his ritual, the gods will reap the world real quick like. A conclusion Durkon seems to agree with.

[Metastachydium]

1. no, we don't know the gods will or, for that matter, can destroy the world before he can actually accomplish the Plan. That the "if we all agree on that" clause in Loki's speech (strip no. 998, page no. 2, panel bo. 3) oft cited by myself and others implies the vote must conclude before they can do that. It might not mean that, but so far I haven't seen anyone convincingly demonstrate that this is the case.

Not the only possible one, but it's a valid, reasonable understanding of the words.

(…)

So yeah. I put these facts together and come to the conclusion that if Redcloak has any apparent chance of actually conducting his ritual, the gods will reap the world real quick like. A conclusion Durkon seems to agree with.

Yes, I accept that as a valid and logical reading, hence the cautious formulation of the idea above. I just happen to find the other way to read it equally valid and logical, at the very least, and prefer that one.

It strongly implies that the gods can scoop the world in an extremely short timeframe.

Indeed. I would merely add an if they all agree it must be done.

The vote to destroy the world was deadlocked as is, if the situation gets worse you can bet the vote will pass.

Indeed. If they get to put that on the schedule, I would add.

Don't forget that Thor has already worked out the plan, and I find it unlikely no other gods have.

Thor (and others; he uses a we there) has a correct suspicion, but is explicitly not certain there is a Ritual and it can actually do that. He also says the others who figured it out are trying to preempt that with their YES votes on Apocalypse Special.

All in all, I'm not saying you're wrong. All I'm saying is I'm not wrong either.

[KorvinStarmast]

I would merely add an if they all agree it must be done.

No. A simple majority suffices. See the godsmoot.

[Metastachydium]

No. A simple majority suffices. See the godsmoot.

That's fair, granted, but it's neither here nor there beyond that.

[Provengreil]

Thor (and others; he uses a we there) has a correct suspicion, but is explicitly not certain there is a Ritual and it can actually do that. He also says the others who figured it out are trying to preempt that with their YES votes on Apocalypse Special.

All in all, I'm not saying you're wrong. All I'm saying is I'm not wrong either.

Excessively, uselessly narrow tautology accepted. Loki did not use the phrase "If the goblin attempts his ritual, we, all the gods, do so pre-emptively agree to reap the world" and then get a yes vote on panel.

[gbaji]

Loki is saying "if we all agree on giving the mortals one more chance to fix the mess and the Snarl breaks out anyway, we have the time to pull the plug". Not "we can't pull the plug unless we all agree at the Godsmoot, even if the Snarl breaks out

That's not what the citation request is about (at least not why I was asking, and I assume the original question as well). It's about the bolded section:

Rich gave Loki that line specifically to enforce the idea that the gods are waiting, willing, and able to drop the hammer on the world as soon as RC actually secures a gate OR the gate is destroyed.

Loki's line said nothing about Redcloak securing a gate. Quite the opposite. He specifically spoke of what they would do if the last gate was destroyed. Lots of posters assume the gods will destroy the world if TE starts their ritual, but there are zero statements from the gods in the comic that this is something they can or will do.

If someone has a citation showing that the gods have stated that they will destroy the werld if TE gains control of a gate, please provide it. In the absense of that, folks need to accept that any speculation/prediction which asssumes this will happen, has zero foundation on which to rest.

Having repeatedly asked what that 'something else' might be and receiving no answer, I do not feel that it is fair to say that I have completely ignored the point.

I don't recall you actually asking what "something else" might be, but even if you did, there's a huge difference between asking that question, and insisting (repeatedly, as I quoted you previously) that there was "nothing else", and effectively basing your entire argument off of that assumption.

And as Anymage has nicely provided The author has provided the answer to your question.

You're certainly free to speculate or propose theories which ignore this fact, but then you should not be surprised when a heck of a lot of people don't put a lot of weight in those things. The author has clearly stated that Durkokon, one of the most knowledgable people about the gates and rifts, believed that it was possible to "do soemthing" with a gate other than simply release the snarl. So much so that he built a self destruct mechanism in his gate. The author has provided us exactly one other arcane caster on the same power level as Durokon (Xykon), and he *also* believes that it's possible to "do something" with an intact gate other than simply release the snarl. We can also speculate that since Lirian, the other most knowledgeable person about the gates, built her defense in a way that virtually ensured destruction if anyone else tried to take possession of it, also felt that "destruction of the gate is preferrable to someone evil getting possession of it"

So we must kinda accept that this should be true. Basing an entire theory around the assumption that every single epic or near epic spellcaster in the stickverse is wrong about this, despite no evidence to support that assumption, is pretty much inviting critique on that point alone.

As I have said many times, Good and Evil characters have a vested interest in keeping the gates intact, so I am not worried if Evil Guy has control of a gate. As soon as anyone, Good or Evil or Vanilla or Antispin, starts to actively try to do something to the gate, everyone should know so that anyone capable of stopping him knows it is time to do something about it. But study it? That's a great idea. Maybe he'll come up with a better gate design.

Sure. So maybe your strategy works against the doomsday cult type folks. I'm not super convinced of that either, given the relative ease with which gates can be destroyed versus defended, much less rebuilt. But hey. Maybe we assume that in this model of things, the gates are built to be much more sturdy than they are in the comic itself. So... I'll give this a firm "maybe".

But it still, as I and several posters have pointed out, leaves out the "do something with the gate" (but not "to" the gate). And the problem with your model is that it requires that "someone" must always have physical possession and access to every single gate, and be defending it from all the crazies who might try to destroy them maybe. But that only works long term if we asssume that not one of those "someone's" ever tried to do something with the gate themselves.

That's where the red/green game point I made a few posts ago comes in. In any system where the reward for choosing to do something harmful to others but beneficial to yourself significantly outweighs the "benefit to all" by simply choosing not to do that harmful action, the harmful action will win over time. There are only two ways to prevent thiis:

1. Change the system so that the "benefit to all if we all work together" outweighs the "benefit to me if I screw everyone else over" (which I'm not sure is possible here). Here is where your earlier assumption comes in though. If you were actually correct that the only thing the gates could be used for was blindly releasing the snarl and destroying the world, it would meet the "benefit to not allowing that exceeds the benefit for using the gate for selfish purposes". But the assumption is not true, so this condition is not met when considering how to deal with the rifts and gates.

2. Reduce the number of people playing the game. A small number of close friends can play the red/green game and all win. As the number of people increasees, the odds of that outcome occuring drop. Super fast. For reference, this is typically played in a classroom setting with say 20-30 students participating. I've never heard of any such game ever resulting in anything other than "everyone loses". I'm sure it's possible it has happened, but it would require a very specific set of people, who for some reason are all of a very specific and similar cooperative mindset (ie: Not a typical class of students in a random school, much less "everone in the world").

And yes. The means by which you reduce the number of people playing the game is "keep it secret". Which is exactly what the Scribblers did.

We know enough to know that none of the gods want The Snarl finding where they live. And according to Loki, it takes fifteen minutes to undo the world.

Only if they all agree to do so. There is zero evidence that they have already agreed to destroy the world if Redcloak and Xykon gain control of a gate and begin casting their ritual on it. I get that many people assume this is what the gods "should do", but no one has shown any evidence in comic that this is something they already have set up and have already agreed to do.

The problem is that it's basically the same as the Scribblers having control of the gates, except with an alginment change. The gods didn't destroy the world the last time a powerful group of mortals gained control of the rifts, studied them, and used magic on them (which created the gates in the first place). Why assume that if an evil group of adventurers gained access to a gate, and began using magic on it, that this would result in an auto-destruct of the world?

It's a pure alignment issue among the gods. If a group of good aligned mortals are allowed that much leeway to learn about and use magic on the rifts, then a group of evil aligned mortals should be allowed to as well.

And btw, this becomes even less of a likelihood in a "we tell the entire world about the gates, rifts, and snarl" model. In that situation, the gods would expect that possession of gates should be somewhat evenly distributed around, and not "hogged" by just the good aligned folks. In your model "someone" must possess every gate, all of the time. It's pretty unreasonable to expect that the evil gods are going to be fine with those someones's all being worshippers of the good gods, and would certainly not agree to any sort of godmoot agreement to destroy the world just because someone evil got their hands on one.

If it were actually the case, that the gods would destroy the world rather than allow gates to be controlled by someone not of their own alignment, then the result of this model should be nearly instant agreement to destroy the world. Good folks have control of the gates, so all the neutral and evil ones vote to destroy this world and start over. Done. Your model requires that we assume that the gods will *not* destroy the world, simply because mortals who are not of their own personal alignment have control of a gate. Which means that it must require that people of all different alignemnts may gain control of any given gate, and the gods will not destroy the world as a result. Which means that the threat of "gods destroy the world if someone evil tries to 'do something' with a gate", simply does not exist.

If it was a real risk, the gods would already have done so. So for every would be bbeg, with a plan to create their own magic ritual to use the gates to make themselves super powerful, conquer the world, etc, the very fact that the world is still around them, means that they can move foward with their plan. As long as they don't actually release the snarl, the world is in no danger, and they are free to do whatever they want. Again, the fact that your model tells everyone this information, tells them exactly what they can do with the gates without risk of world destruction.

Which means that's exactly what will happen. It's reasonable to assume that as long as the evil folks also prevent the doomsday folks from destroying the gate they have possession of, the gods will sit by and allow them to use those gates for anything else. Which can include all sorts of super powerful magic things, which may create lots of problems for the other mortals living on the prime material plane, but as long as this doesn't result in release of the snarl, the gods will presuambly stay out of it.

I could be wrong, of course, but none of the gods seem particularly suicidal.

They don't have to be. As I stated earlier. Only 1 outer plane is at risk. That's a very large majority of gods who will not be directly affected even if the ritual is completed, the gods fail in their negotiations with TDO, and the gate is transported to and opened in one of the outer planes.

Heck. A lot of the gods might very well be rooting for this outcome. Recall what the Fiends want to do to the good aligned planes. They would be perfectly on board with TDO unleashing this thing, as long as it's not unleashed on them.

[brian 333]

You've not completely ignored the point, you've completely ignored the answers when people told you about the "something else".

You want us to speculate more about what can be done? Fine, let's speculate:

Fact 1: we know that mortals can create a barrier that resists the Snarl, at least for a time.

Fact 2: by creating barriers with an opening, it is possible to make what is contained within the barrier take a specific path. Like a mouse in a maze, or water in a tube.

Fact 3: Some people in the OotS-verse can open portals connecting point A to point Z without going through any of the points in-between. Even if point A and Z are on different planes of existence.

Conclusion: it's theoretically possible to create a "tube" with "walls" that can contain the Snarl for a while, and have a portal at one end of said tube, letting someone do precisely targeted strikes with the soul-annihilating abomination.

Since the person doing that live in the world as described in your OP, they just have to put one of those tube+portal in front of your Zipper Gate, unzip it open, and wait for the Snarl to try to grab the thing outside.

Which is exactly where we are now. The only difference is, with my plan there are people who are aware of the danger this places them in. With The Secret if there is some one or many who can stop TE, they are oblivious and merrily do nothing as the world comes apart around them.

I said the Threads of Reality.

Maybe you haven't ignored the answers, then, you've just misinterpreted them into something easily dismissable with a "they have magic already".

Excuse me, but that was not a dismissal. That was an honest answer. Manipulating reality is what magic does. Epic magic is an obvious example.

It certainly is not, given you're judging them as inefficient for acting on what they knew.

Not inefficient, paranoid. So afraid of imagined threats that they cannot trust anyone who might help them against real threats. So certain that no one can be trusted that they create the conditions which allow TE to even have a chance to do what they are doing.

This thesis has not been demonstrated.

It certainly has not been tested, so of course it cannot be demonstrated. As I have repeatedly admitted. Why not try? You never know who is out there until you look for them.

Or is the absence of evidence now considered evidence of absence?

Safe under the power of an evil guy.

What a joy.

Safe, and alive in a world with a future. How is global destruction a better choice?

And as you've been told many times in answer to that, that assumes that people act to further their own interests in a rational manner.

A lot of people don't do that.

And many more do. See, in protecting from the few who would try to use the secret for their own ends, you are protecting those same irrational people from the multitudes who would oppose them if they only knew that they should.

The vast majority are not altruistic. They won't risk death to stop a madman when they can run away. But when they cannot run and their death is certain?

That doesn't make "living under the BBEG's rule until someone come along" a pleasant perspective.

Less pleasant than being dead?

Once again, you are affirming that your plan would definitively survive contact with the enemy.

No. Your claim, not mine. My claim is that there is no perfect plan. The more people who know what to do when the plan goes sideways, the better your chance of recovery.

How about:

-The gods answer, people don't believe the answer. Knowledge withers on the vine.

-The gods answer, people believe the answer, but that make a large quantity of them lose their faith in the gods. The gods grow weaker from the lack of faith, meaning their quiddities weakens, and a few generations down the road the Snarl can break through the prison again. Knowledge destroys the prison.

-The gods give different answers, possibly smiting the one who ask for daring to do it. Different religions fight and debate about which answer is true. Knowledge remains uncertain.

-The gods refuse to answer, because the ones who want to tell the mortals are outnumbered by those who don't want to tell the mortals and they held up a vote to decide how to handle the situation. Knowledge is not acquired.

-The gods hold up a vote to decide how to handle the situation, and the number of gods who think the world shouldn't be allowed to continue now that so many mortals know about the Snarl is bigger than the number of gods who are fine with that new status quo, so the gods destroy the world. Knowledge results in judgement day.

All those are very real possibilities you're refusing to acknowledge because you think there is one right way to do things and not only that all the other ways are wrong, but that no one will do those wrong ways if they knew the one right way.

You are right. The gods might not cooperate. Which leaves us no worse off than where we are now.

Please do not take my not doing point-to-point replies to every post as some sort of refusal to acknowledge, because I don't have enough time in the day to reply, especially to these wall-o-text posts. And generally, I don't post a rebuttal to points with which I agree. So, assume any point I don't try to rebut is one with which I agree, and you will be wrong about me less often.

No, according to Loki it takes 15 minutes for the Snarl to breaks out once the last Gate is gone.

And his implication in that observation, based on the prior discussion, is that that is long enough to pull the plug. So, no. This does not refute my point. Try again.

Evil guy trying to harness the gate's power to do evil things is likely to lead to conflict that might destroy the gate, even if he's not risking the fate of the world, which I am not convinced he wouldn't be

The gates so far have been defended with the understanding that "destroy it" is a better plan than allowing it to fall into enemy hands, which makes me think using the gates to harness the power of the Snarl is possible

And here we are, ready to harness the gate to control The Snarl, or destroy the last gate to deny it to the enemy.

You've mentioned the existence of these other Epic Characters a few times. But we have not seen any evidence of epic characters outside of The Scribblers and Xykon. And there have been events that should have called Epic level character's attention. The fall of a major capital city to an epic level lich is the sort of thing that is just begging Good Epic characters to intervene, if they exist. If there were any Epic Level clerics or other divine people, you would think they would have been at least mentioned at the godsmoot. It's impossible to prove that there are not any Epic level characters in the world, but its impossible to prove the absence of just about anything. If you have any evidence that even implies the existence of other Epic characters, i would love to see it.

The Giant has repeatedly said he is not going to have someone else show up to save the day.

That is a far cry from saying "no other epic characters exist." We do know of at least three other epics in OotSworld: Vaarsivius's splice-buddies. Why are we so quick to exclude the possibility of more?

Sure; here is an example for you. Something else someone can do with the gates.



Is that a good enough answer to that question for you?

That was an obvious joke. It was even kind of funny. If you took it seriously, it just became very funny. If you expect me to take it seriously, it just became hilarious.

[Unoriginal]

Excuse me, but that was not a dismissal. That was an honest answer. Manipulating reality is what magic does. Epic magic is an obvious example.

Well thank you for confirming you honestly don't know what the Threads of Reality are.


EDIT:

I apologize, I made a mistake. What I'm referring to is called the Threads of Creation in-comic.