A Perfect Defense!

[brian 333]

Well thank you for confirming you honestly don't know what the Threads of Reality are.


EDIT:

I apologize, I made a mistake. What I'm referring to is called the Threads of Creation in-comic.

I think you have that backwards. You don't need magic in the outer planes where thoughts manifest. You only need magic where real things exist, and real things are made of the Threads. Magic has no other purpose but to manipulate real things, therefore, magic manipulates the threads.

[Errorname]

I think you have that backwards. You don't need magic in the outer planes where thoughts manifest. You only need magic where real things exist, and real things are made of the Threads. Magic has no other purpose but to manipulate real things, therefore, magic manipulates the threads.

I do think there's probably a pretty serious difference between normal manipulation of the threads of creation, and the exposed and unraveling threads seen in the final dungeon.

[Timy]

I do think there's probably a pretty serious difference between normal manipulation of the threads of creation, and the exposed and unraveling threads seen in the final dungeon.

I guess you mean the Final Dungeon ?

[Precure]

As they say, the best defense is a good offense, so, the perfect defense must comes with the perfect offense. Like an army of crusaders that destroy anyone deemed as a threat. But an army like that has to be lawful evil due to nature of its deeds.

[Metastachydium]

Excessively, uselessly narrow tautology accepted. Loki did not use the phrase "If the goblin attempts his ritual, we, all the gods, do so pre-emptively agree to reap the world" and then get a yes vote on panel.

Well, I'm terribly sorry, I seem not to have the supernal clarity neccessary to see a vote with no takebacks that was always going to be very close (this much is clear to Hel, even, as per the Word of the Giant) despite the urgency of the matter and conclude that the vote is a joke and can be scrapped at a moment's notice with everyone suddenly reaching a broad consensus.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, I'm terribly sorry, I seem not to have the supernal clarity neccessary to see a vote with no takebacks that was always going to be very close (this much is clear to Hel, even, as per the Word of the Giant) despite the urgency of the matter and conclude that the vote is a joke and can be scrapped at a moment's notice with everyone suddenly reaching a broad consensus.

You have won this week's Run On Sentence Award. Please see the ushers for which prize you'd like to choose.

[Peelee]

You have won this week's Run On Sentence Award. Please see the ushers for which prize you'd like to choose.

That was not a run-on sentence.

[brian 333]

Well, I'm terribly sorry, I seem not to have the supernal clarity neccessary to see a vote with no takebacks that was always going to be very close (this much is clear to Hel, even, as per the Word of the Giant) despite the urgency of the matter and conclude that the vote is a joke and can be scrapped at a moment's notice with everyone suddenly reaching a broad consensus.

When someone shows up at the poker table and waves a gun in everyone's face, it is time to take the money and run.

By long precedent, the gods appear to have "cash in the souls" as their default option when The Snarl breaks free of its prison. No Godsmoot needed.

And I could be wrong, that is just how I see it.

[Metastachydium]

You have won this week's Run On Sentence Award. Please see the ushers for which prize you'd like to choose.

…
Are the ushers all Vampires?

That was not a run-on sentence.

Also, this. The prize feels more and more like a TRAP!

And I could be wrong, that is just how I see it.

Which is entirely fine as far as I'm concerned. I respect that opinion and your having it, and made sure to stress that much from the get-go. I merely
1. see it differently; and
2. kinda take issue with the notion that this makes my position hair-splittingly obtuse or whatever, somehow.

[Provengreil]

Well, I'm terribly sorry, I seem not to have the supernal clarity neccessary to see a vote with no takebacks that was always going to be very close (this much is clear to Hel, even, as per the Word of the Giant) despite the urgency of the matter and conclude that the vote is a joke and can be scrapped at a moment's notice with everyone suddenly reaching a broad consensus.

Uh huh. Here's the thing: this isn't the geekery thread. We don't need the comic to explicitly say someone has charisma 18 to list it as charisma 18 here.

As I stated before, Durkon agrees with my conclusion.

Belkar, Roy, and Haley agree with my conclusion, and Serini agreed with almost no resistance.

That's 5 characters, 4 of which are main characters, 2 of which are explicitly stated to have high wisdom, and 2 others highly skilled in manipulation, which involves figuring out the priorities of those involved.

As for Redcloak's plan itself and its consequences, Thor has explicitly worked it out(And sure, he said "he "thinks", but he'll act as though it's true in that case, so it's the same as though he knows), plus Loki specifically recognizes this as a chance to stop the snarl and, expicitly, while telling the truth in the only way and time feasible, said he'd swap sides immediately if the chance disappeared. And that one vote changes everything even if no one else swaps.

Notably, the only character to reject this conclusion is Redcloak himself, who is called out by yet another high(ish) wisdom character on his impending inability to accept the truth in favor of what he previously believed.

So yes. Have your little "he never said the exact phrase" tautology, and its utter failure to contribute to any ongoing conversation. {scrubbed}. Meanwhile, the rest of us will take the clearly foreshadowed conclusion that the gods can and will reap the world immediately upon Redcloak securing a gate and attempting his ritual and work from there.


EDIT: And, uh, no. That was not a run on sentence. Just a long one.

[Metastachydium]

Uh huh. Here's the thing: this isn't the geekery thread. We don't need the comic to explicitly say someone has charisma 18 to list it as charisma 18 here.

As I stated before, Durkon agrees with my conclusion.

The same Durkon who's a Cleric and still needs a reminder from Greg about the domain agreement, knew jack **** about quiddity or the Astral Plane, cannot undersdtand Thor doesn't hate trees even after explained, had gaping holes in his understanding of divine dietary needs until explained twice in painstaking detail… Shall I go on?

Belkar, Roy, and Haley agree with my conclusion, and Serini agreed with almost no resistance.

Oh, wow, Roy (who doesn't like gods, knows very little about their internal politicking and much less about theology) trusts his best friend and only source on the matter and three increasingly Chaotic people distrust authority figures and assume a worst case scenario! How could I not see this?!

That's 5 characters, 4 of which are main characters, 2 of which are explicitly stated to have high wisdom

It's also a goo thing they've never been wrong about anything before and being a Main Character protects them from such mishaps! Like how Durkon saw straight through Malack, and Roy through Greg, for only a couple examples! Or how Serini understood her own teammate Soon so perfectly! How could I not see this?!

As for the plan itself and its consequences, Thor has explicitly worked it out(And sure, he said "he "thinks", but he'll act as though it's true in that case, so it's the same as though he knows),

So? He'll act on what he thinks is the case. Cool. Which changes… Nothing, since he's the one guy who'll likely try and give a chance to the Team no matter what and the rest of that "we" doesn't seem to vote strictly along.

plus Loki specifically recognizes this as a chance to stop the snarl and, expicitly, while telling the truth in the only way and time feasible, said he'd swap sides immediately if the chance disappeared. And that one vote changes everything even if no one else swaps.

He can't do it with a vote, since guess what? No takebacks. And switching side in the given context sounds a lot more like switching sides over to his daughter. Remember her? They are talking before her door on why Loki supports Thor instead of her.

Which can just as well mean (and that is more likely, in fact) trying to help her cheat which she was doing anyway and which will either work or won't. Congrats on demonstrating nothing, buddy.

So yes. Have your little "he never said the exact phrase" tautology, and its utter failure to contribute to any ongoing conversation. You're like a child in a corner crying that he has to be recognized that he's not entirely wrong: I have given you this recognition. Meanwhile, the rest of us will take the clearly foreshadowed conclusion that the gods can and will reap the world immediately upon Redcloak securing a gate and attempting his ritual and work from there.

And I won't dignify this crap with an answer, sorry.

[Tubercular Ox]

Rich is writing the gods like people. I expect compliance with what was agreed before to be more than zero but less than one. And if nothing prevents the gods from destroying the planet on cue, they'll find something else to disagree on before we reach that point.

The goal is conflict.

[gbaji]

By long precedent, the gods appear to have "cash in the souls" as their default option when The Snarl breaks free of its prison. No Godsmoot needed.

I tend to agree. While not explicitly stated, it's reasonable to assume, given the number of worlds they have rebuilt, and Thor's comments about how they've gotten quite good at saving mortal souls whenever the snarl breaks free that "we all agree to immediately destroy the world if the snarl breaks free" is almost certainly a long standing agreement they have, so there would be no need to re-vote on that which has already been agreed upon.

The godmoot was about whether to do so before the snarl breaks free.

Uh huh. Here's the thing: this isn't the geekery thread. We don't need the comic to explicitly say someone has charisma 18 to list it as charisma 18 here.

As I stated before, Durkon agrees with my conclusion.

Correct. But that's the vote that is currently being held up. If we assume that the gods must vote and agree to destroy the world for any condition other than "the snarl breaks free", then this is the vote to do that, and that vote is currently tied, and waiting for some dwarven carpentry to finish before it can be completed.

Which means, until they can finish the vote, if TE completes their plan the gods will not destroy the world. They will only (presumably) do so if the snarl is released. But The Plan doesn't do that, so they can't destroy the world.

Belkar, Roy, and Haley agree with my conclusion, and Serini agreed with almost no resistance.

Assuming you meant to link to this strip (or the one after it). Again, this is the party's perception and statements to Serini. I suspect there's a fair amount of leeway in their statements, given that they are actively trying to convince Sereni to help them. They need her to believe that "let TE win" isn't a viable option, so they tell her that. I would not take their statements here as absolute fact about what the gods will or will not actually do if that is the case.

At the end of the day, I doubt very much that at any point in this comic TE will complete their ritual anyway. So not necessarily relevant for the comic itself, but certainly so for hypothetical cases (like we're discussing here).

And as for hypotheticals, it does show us that "destroy the world if someone takes control of a gate in a way that might threaten us" is not remotely a definite thing that the gods would do. It's a tie vote right now. If we assume that the gods do know what TDO's plan is (Thor seems to know, and a few of the comments by various deities at the godmoot suggest they know it too), then that's a tie vote despite having a very very direct threat to themselves. If some powerful evil wizard were to just be using a gate for the same kind of thing that Xykon think's the ritual is about? I doubt very much that the gods would do a darn thing about that.

So things like "tap into it for a super magic source" is not going to result in world destruction by the gods. "Figure out how to selectively release the snarls tendril thingies to a targeted point on the PMP" would also not cause this. And that's just two uses right off the top of my head. Given we have a tie vote on what is arguably the absolute most likely thing someone could do with a gate to get the gods to destroy the world kinda strongly suggests that anything short of that will *not* result in the gods doing so.

Which leaves us back at "every wanna be bbeg will be gunning for control of a gate" as the likely result if the knowledge about them were widely spread.

[Provengreil]

-snip-

And you didn't even notice that I linked to the wrong strip in one of my links. You aren't even trying. So to quote Josiah Bartlet: "Just be wrong. Just stand there in your wrongness and be wrong and get used to it."

[gbaji]

And you didn't even notice that I linked to the wrong strip in one of my links. You aren't even trying. So to quote Josiah Bartlet: "Just be wrong. Just stand there in your wrongness and be wrong and get used to it."

So, you referrenced a conversation in the comic, but linked to the wrong strip. The person responding to you responded to the correct strip you meant to link to, and not the one you accidentally linked to instead, but that makes their response... wrong somehow?

It was pretty obvious in context exactly which conversation you were referring to, and it didn't happen that long ago in the comic, so I don't think someone merely responding based on their own memory of the event's being referrenced is inherently wrong at all. Maybe just take their response to what you were talking about at face value instead of playing a really really strange "gotcha" game.

[Provengreil]

So, you referrenced a conversation in the comic, but linked to the wrong strip. The person responding to you responded to the correct strip you meant to link to, and not the one you accidentally linked to instead, but that makes their response... wrong somehow?

It was pretty obvious in context exactly which conversation you were referring to, and it didn't happen that long ago in the comic, so I don't think someone merely responding based on their own memory of the event's being referrenced is inherently wrong at all. Maybe just take their response to what you were talking about at face value instead of playing a really really strange "gotcha" game.

For one thing, it shows that they aren't actually checking the sources.

But more to the point, taking their response at face value means their entire..."argument"....boils down to them saying "you don't know that," in the face of rather significant evidence towards me, yes, knowing that, while making no contrary positive statements to back themself up. If it's not clear, this kind of thing is a MASSIVE pet peeve of mine.

Someone wants to say my, or anyone's really, interpretation of something not stated in exacting detail is wrong? Cool, I'll listen. Heck, one page ago I admitted my own perception of the Sapphire Guard raid on Redcloak's village was wrong. This is, after all, a discussion board for exactly such topics. But they need to bring their own interpretation or sit down. And what did they say about their own argument?

All in all, I'm not saying you're wrong. All I'm saying is I'm not wrong either.

If that's all you're saying, you've got nothing to say.

EDIT: spelling

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Thread re-opened. Let's tone down the hostility, please.

[brian 333]

Are the ushers all Vampires

They are not all vampires. Some of them have more than one template.

Also, this. The prize feels more and more like a TRAP!

It is a trap but you don't have to trigger it.

But you know you want to...

…Which is entirely fine as far as I'm concerned. I respect that opinion and your having it, and made sure to stress that much from the get-go. I merely
1. see it differently; and
2. kinda take issue with the notion that this makes my position hair-splittingly obtuse or whatever, somehow.

1. You are entitled to your opinion, and I acknowledge that yours may be more correct than mine. I do not own the one, infallible truth to which you must adhere. And even if I am right, I have no dogmatic authority to impose my rightness upon you.

2. Hair-splittingly obtuse opinions are fun. I wish more posters would post them, because bandwagon bloviators are generally dull and seldom say anything worthy of consideration. But your opinion, no matter if I agree with it or not, is valued because I can rely upon it being an honest one.

(There are several posters on this forum with whom I generally end up on the opposite side of in a debate, whose insights I greatly value even as I disagree with them.)

C) If ever I have said anything that causes you (or anyone else) to feel disrespected in any way, I apologize. It is never my intent to be disrespectful. If in the future I do so please let me know so that I can correct my behavior.

Moving on: I really like the LE Army idea. It sounds like a perfect setup. Wrap them up in a set of unbreakable rules, complex rituals, and fanaticism.

What could go wrong?

[Metastachydium]

And you didn't even notice that I linked to the wrong strip in one of my links. You aren't even trying. So to quote Josiah Bartlet: "Just be wrong. Just stand there in your wrongness and be wrong and get used to it."

For one thing, it shows that they aren't actually checking the sources.

As gbaji helpfully pointed out while I was away (thank you, by the by), if you expect me to see you reference a recent strip I recognise with ease and link another one, clearly by accident and go "HA-HA, YOU LINKED THE WRONG STRIP XDLOL, YOUR POST DOESN'T MATTER ANYMORE", instead of actually reacting to what you said, I'll continue to disappoint. I would feel very childish if I dod so. And yes, the strip in question is about two characters extremely distrustful of authority using the extreme distrust towards authority of a third to convince her the worst case scenario is a realistic scenario, so ultimately this little detour was just you adding another cringe ad florem insult irrelevant to the discussion at hand to the previous string.

But more to the point, taking their response at face value means their entire..."argument"....boils down to them saying "you don't know that," in the face of rather significant evidence towards me, yes, knowing that, while making no contrary positive statements to back themself up. If it's not clear, this kind of thing is a MASSIVE pet peeve of mine.

Your "significant evidence" is a couple characters who have been explicitly wrong about the whole situation at least three or four times so far (Dorukan's Gate exploding was just a stupid trap destroying some sweet loot; Xykon is trying to destroy the world using the Gates; Team Evil wants to use the Gates to rule the world; maybe the Snarl doesn't even exist after all…) and might stil be wrong about it, alongside the gods themselves (the whole planet in the Rift issue)… Stated an opinion based on something only two of them have at least some first hand pointers on. And then you added "everyone else agrees with me because I'm right" (a highly dubious statement) and rant on regarding "the clearly foreshadowed conclusion that the gods can and will reap the world immediately upon Redcloak securing a gate and attempting his ritual and work from there" even though due to Elan's prophecy, that is the one thing we'll be absolutely certain we'll never ever see demonstrated, regardless of what happens or doesn't happen in Redcloak's diseased little fallacious mind.

Meanwhile, to stick with your one alleged master argument that isn't just trying to offend me, you handily ignore the person with probably the highest WIS score in the scene you referenced, i.e. Lien dismissing Belkar/Haley/Serini's conclusion, and being right so far as we know because the Southern Pantheon did vote NO on Apocalypse Special.

Someone wants to say my, or anyone's really, interpretation of something not stated in exacting detail is wrong? Cool, I'll listen. Heck, one page ago I admitted my own perception of the Sapphire Guard raid on Redcloak's village was wrong. This is, after all, a discussion board for exactly such topics. But they need to bring their own interpretation or sit down. And what did they say about their own argument?

Once more, I argued based on
–the exact wording of Loki; and
–that as gbaji also points out, there is a vote on the subject which is a quite silly thing to have if they don't need one since they "can and will just reap the world at a moment's notice whenever without a vote", especially since it's not a time constraint thing – unless you wish top argue Loki is wrong when he explicitly says they will have time to perform Apocalypse Special even if all Gates break down and the Snarl is fifteen minutes away from getting loose.

So far as I could tell, you basically argued that you're right (and therefore I'm wrong, I should just go deal with it) and the protagonists are right because they are the protagonists or whatever (which as I said before and elaborated upon in this very post) is demonstrably false. That makes two non-arguments, neither of which warrants that high herbivore you rode in on.

EDIT:

It is a trap but you don't have to trigger it.

But you know you want to...

Case in point, I tried, repeatedly, to click on the VERY SUSPICIOUS LINK there.

2. Hair-splittingly obtuse opinions are fun. I wish more posters would post them, because bandwagon bloviators are generally dull and seldom say anything worthy of consideration. But your opinion, no matter if I agree with it or not, is valued because I can rely upon it being an honest one.

(There are several posters on this forum with whom I generally end up on the opposite side of in a debate, whose insights I greatly value even as I disagree with them.)

Heh. That can be all too true. I used to mentally call dancrillis one of the best fringe theorists of our time, for instance. And we all have our moments, if only we try!

C) If ever I have said anything that causes you (or anyone else) to feel disrespected in any way, I apologize. It is never my intent to be disrespectful. If in the future I do so please let me know so that I can correct my behavior.

No, no, you're a cool dude saying cool things and we're cool!

Moving on: I really like the LE Army idea. It sounds like a perfect setup. Wrap them up in a set of unbreakable rules, complex rituals, and fanaticism.

What could go wrong?

NOTHING! THERE IS ONLY ONE RIGHT WAY! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!

[gbaji]

Ok. Moving on. I'll just add onto my earlier opinion on the whole issue of the Order saying that TE getting control of the gate means that the gods will pull the plug on the world:

That scene could indicate that the Order actually believes that this is true. It could indicate that they are fudging things a bit to persuade Serini to help them. Heck. They're not even entirely lying here, since technically that was (to some degree anyway) exactly what the gods were voting on. But regardless of what the Order actually believes, the reality is that the gods will not destroy the world merely because of the threat of TE to the gates, unless and until they reconvene and vote to do so.

Two additional points on that as well:

1. The vote may not be "yes". Hel was manipulating the dwarven counciil to vote yes, but the Order stopped them. Whether the council will vote yes or no, once reconvened, and no longer being dominated by vampires, is unknown.

2. The vote itself is not at all tied to "If TE gets control of the gate". If the vote is "yes", the world is destroyed, regardless of what TE or the Order do. If the vote is "no", they do not destroy the world. Period. Which presumably puts us back to the default of "the gods will only destroy the world if the snarl is released". That condition is not met if TE gains control of the gate though, which makes what the Order told Serini a false statement, pretty much no matter how we read it.


As far as we know, the council of dwarves do not have any direct knowledge about what is going on at the final gate. So however they do decide to vote, it presumably wont be a result of the current condition of the final gate, and whether or not TE or the Order has won. I mean, I suppose we could speculate that since it will almost certainly take longer to build a new table than it'll take to resolve the conflict at the gate, and if we assume the Order survives, they could go back to Firmament and tell the council what has happened, and that could be the deciding factor in their vote. Maybe. But barring that happening, the vote will be whatever it will be, based on whatever their original non-dominated opinions were.


I suppose, just for completenesses sake, we could speculate that there is already some previous vote by the gods that says "If TE gains control of a gate, and begins the ritual to hand control of its position to TDO" we destroy the world". That would certainly make both Durkon and Roy's statements true ones. But there's no actual evidence in the comic to support this assumption. And there's a fair bit that opposes it. Tyr's statement in particular suggests strongly that the reason they are voting to destroy the world now is directly out of concern about TE completing the ritual:

"I will see this world torn to shreds before I will allow anyone to gain a strategic advantage over us"

It's hard to read that as anything other than Tyr knowing about "The Plan", and voting to destroy the world before it can come to fruition. But if that's the case, then there would be no reason to have this vote at all, if they already had an agreement to destroy the world if TE gained control of a gate and began the ritual. Thus, we can conclude that there is no current agreement in place to do this, and that this is what the vote was about in the first place.

Which... after said long windy path, leads us to the conclusion that Roy and the rest of the Order's statements to Serini were not true. Whether they were lying, or just misunderstood what the gods were doing is unknown. But we can reasonably assume that there is no actual triggered "destruction of the world if TE wins" present.

[Errorname]

That scene could indicate that the Order actually believes that this is true. It could indicate that they are fudging things a bit to persuade Serini to help them. Heck. They're not even entirely lying here, since technically that was (to some degree anyway) exactly what the gods were voting on. But regardless of what the Order actually believes, the reality is that the gods will not destroy the world merely because of the threat of TE to the gates, unless and until they reconvene and vote to do so.

I do think there's a possibility that the failure to resolve the Godsmoot might tie the hands of the gods and prevent them from acting to unmake the world.

I do not think there is enough evidence to speak this confidently about that. All our characters seem to believe that the stakes are 'if we fail, gods kill everyone' and what we've heard from the gods post-indefinite stalemate has no concern that the failure to resolve the godsmoot might prevent them from taking future action.

[gbaji]

I do think there's a possibility that the failure to resolve the Godsmoot might tie the hands of the gods and prevent them from acting to unmake the world.

I do not think there is enough evidence to speak this confidently about that. All our characters seem to believe that the stakes are 'if we fail, gods kill everyone' and what we've heard from the gods post-indefinite stalemate has no concern that the failure to resolve the godsmoot might prevent them from taking future action.

Right (assuming I'm reading that last sentence correctly). From the Order's perspective, them "winning" is the only safe path forward. There's no way to know what the gods might do in the future if they fail. Even setting aside what may happen if TE gets ahold of a gate and performs the ritual on it, it's likely that the world will be destroyed at some point (probably shortly) after that anyway. Or other horrible things will happen. Too many variables to be sure.

But the one path that does result in "world saved and we all go back to living our lives" is if the Order defeats TE, sequres the final gate, and removes the threat(s) that the gods are reacting to in the first place. If they can also do the whole "four quiddity seal" thing as well, that's even better. But one kinda depends on achieving the other as well. Maybe.

I fully expect and predict that things will not go down that way at all, but at least from the Order's point of view as of this moment, that is their best plan for saving the world. Which is why I said earlier that regardless of whether their statements to Sereni are 100% accurate, it doesn't matter. They are correct enough that the simple version of "TE gets control of the gate == worlds destruction" is a fair way to put things.

Where this is relevant to the thread topic is that we should not take those statements in this particular context and situation, as evidence that in a hypothetical alternative timeline, where the Scribblers told the entire world about the snarl, rifts, and gates, that the idea that "the gods will destroy the world if any evil person gets their hands on one and uses it for evil purposes" is at all an accurate assumption to make. In this world, where the "evil purposes" at hand are a ritual to allow an evil god to move the gate to an outer plane and threaten the gods themselves with release of the snarl there, the gods are merely tied on the decision to destroy the world in order to prevent that.

It's reasonable to assume that in this alternative hypothetical scenario, if there were other evil people, doing other evil things, but that didn't actually threaten to release the snarl entirely, nor to release it partially on an outer plane, that the gods would very very likely not do anything about that at all. As long as whatever they use the gates for only affects other mortals on the prime material plane, I suspect the gods response would not be to destroy the world, but jockey to get their own followers hands on gates, and engage in similar research of ways to use them against the evil folks. That's not to say that may not escalate to a point where world destruction occurs, but it would not be the kind of "MAD" deterrent that it's being assumed to be. It really depends on what said evil folks come up with (and what's actually possible to use them for, which we don't actually know).

[Provengreil]

I do think there's a possibility that the failure to resolve the Godsmoot might tie the hands of the gods and prevent them from acting to unmake the world.

I do not think there is enough evidence to speak this confidently about that. All our characters seem to believe that the stakes are 'if we fail, gods kill everyone' and what we've heard from the gods post-indefinite stalemate has no concern that the failure to resolve the godsmoot might prevent them from taking future action.

I think a much more likely scenario is that the IFCC's artifact and the planet within the rift create a set of circumstances the gods have no preplanned agreement for, and therefore they can't safely act without creating other snarls.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think a much more likely scenario is that the IFCC's artifact and the planet within the rift create a set of circumstances the gods have no preplanned agreement for,

Yes, provisionally.
The gods have made and lost millions of worlds before this one. They've seen a lot of variations on how the world can be lost, but, as with "the new color in the crayon box" a new wrinkle such as the one you propose is certainly possible.

and therefore they can't safely act without creating other snarls.

Maybe. I think that they have learned their lesson by now, a few million worlds later.

[Provengreil]

Yes, provisionally.
The gods have made and lost millions of worlds before this one. They've seen a lot of variations on how the world can be lost, but, as with "the new color in the crayon box" a new wrinkle such as the one you propose is certainly possible.

Maybe. I think that they have learned their lesson by now, a few million worlds later.

The existence of the godsmoot suggests otherwise. It's not so much that they don't know how to work together, it's just that they need to work in concert when they do, and for that they need a plan.

You ever see ceremonial military formations doing their thing? That level of unity isn't just basic teamwork, every one of those people knows every order that's gonna happen that day when they wake up. My image of the gods working with the creation and reaping of the material world involves a similar level of planning and concert.

[Tubercular Ox]

Maybe. I think that they have learned their lesson by now, a few million worlds later.

But they're facing an existential threat right now (sorry not sorry). There's never been a fifth quiddity before, there's never been a quiddity as willing to destroy the other quiddities, and there hasn't been a quiddity with no personal experience with the Snarl since the Snarl was first made known. If any of them have a self preservation instinct they may find themselves doing things they promised they never would when circumstances were calmer.

One could argue that the fact that no one has ever been able to threaten them in the way The Dark One is right now means they have no practice responding to those threats in a controlled manner. See also: Tyr.

Also, please remember that we do not have to correctly predict the point of conflict in order to predict conflict. If the gods are united behind destroying the world as soon as the last gate is destroyed, then they will be conflicted over destroying the world as soon as Team Evil takes possession of the gate. But if instead they are united in destroying the world as soon as Team Evil takes possession of the gate, then they will be conflicted about destroying it when Team Evil enters the final dungeon.

It works in the opposite direction, too, I'm just not as good as guessing what milestones there will be after when the gods hypothetically decide to postpone destroying the world because of new developments.

Given that they have forbidden themselves from acting based on the word of a handful of dwarves, there is no practical way for them to make progress towards a consensus for action except someone has the idea first and is put in the position of having to sell it to others.

There will be conflict before there will be consensus.

[Errorname]

But they're facing an existential threat right now (sorry not sorry). There's never been a fifth quiddity before, there's never been a quiddity as willing to destroy the other quiddities, and there hasn't been a quiddity with no personal experience with the Snarl since the Snarl was first made known. If any of them have a self preservation instinct they may find themselves doing things they promised they never would when circumstances were calmer.

We know for a fact that the opportunity presented by the Dark One is the thing that brought Loki over to the "let's not kill them all yet" side, and I doubt he was the only one

[Jay R]

Getting back to the original topic.

I'm not sure it would work, but I think the OP came up with a reasonable, well-thought-out plan that (possibly) could have prevented the entire story of a comic that currently supports Rich and his family.

[Unoriginal]

I'm not sure it would work, but I think the OP came up with a reasonable, well-thought-out plan

There was nothing reasonable or well-thought-out about that plan.

Again, the only way it'd work was if the OotS world was solely populated by emotionless lawful neutral exemplars devoided of ambition and curiosity. And if that was the case you can save yourself the zipper gate and just invest in "do not touch" signs.

[KorvinStarmast]

You ever see ceremonial military formations doing their thing? That level of unity isn't just basic teamwork, every one of those people knows every order that's gonna happen that day when they wake up. My image of the gods working with the creation and reaping of the material world involves a similar level of planning and concert.

Roughly the exact opposite of how the OotS gods actually create a world ... (I have done silent drill. Yes, it's a whole different level of teamwork than even competitive platoon level drill (with bayonets) was, and that took the kind of effort your point towards).

There's never been a fifth quiddity before, there's never been a quiddity as willing to destroy the other quiddities

But there's been a snarl that has been desiring and able to.

, and there hasn't been a quiddity with no personal experience with the Snarl since the Snarl was first made known.

Given that TDO isn't in any of the pantheons, that hardly matters.

If any of them have a self preservation instinct they may find themselves doing things they promised they never would when circumstances were calmer.

They already know how to preserve themselves; destroy the world, make a new one to trap the snarl in.

One could argue that the fact that no one has ever been able to threaten them in the way The Dark One is right now means they have no practice responding to those threats in a controlled manner.

Disagree. The Snarl's surprise attack that wiped out the Eastern Pantheon was orders of magnitude more dire than this thing that they see coming.

Also, please remember that we do not have to correctly predict the point of conflict in order to predict conflict. If the gods are united behind destroying the world as soon as the last gate is destroyed, then they will be conflicted over destroying the world as soon as Team Evil takes possession of the gate. But if instead they are united in destroying the world as soon as Team Evil takes possession of the gate, then they will be conflicted about destroying it when Team Evil enters the final dungeon.

I don't see the point of that paragraph. The vote had to do with preemptive destruction, not "the balloon just went up, gotta do it again" destruction.

There will be conflict before there will be consensus.

There already has been, hence the whole story and in particular Book 6.

We know for a fact that the opportunity presented by the Dark One is the thing that brought Loki over to the "let's not kill them all yet" side, and I doubt he was the only one

Yep.

I'm not sure it would work, but I think the OP came up with a reasonable, well-thought-out plan that (possibly) could have prevented the entire story of a comic that currently supports Rich and his family.

If only Isildur would have thrown that ring into the crack of doom when he had the chance, we'd have been spared the drudgery of LotR., and perhaps been spared the very existence of hobbits.