Better 'Defender' Build...

[GutterFace]

Hey all...

So more of a question for the group, looking for opinions on picking a defender/tank type for an upcoming game.

We have a pretty well balanced party across skills/spells and some melee. So I am picking last.

Im torn between Ancients Paladin or Armorer Artificer. More background is im not looking to multiclass and sticking more to core races.
I know Artificer's first 2 levels doesn't leave much to being a defender the way Paladin does, but i was looking at level 3+

Im versed on spells and class skills and abilities for the classes. Just looking for some insight and opinions on which the community thinks would be better as an overall defender Level 3-9 ish

[stoutstien]

Hey all...

So more of a question for the group, looking for opinions on picking a defender/tank type for an upcoming game.

We have a pretty well balanced party across skills/spells and some melee. So I am picking last.

Im torn between Ancients Paladin or Armorer Artificer. More background is im not looking to multiclass and sticking more to core races.
I know Artificer's first 2 levels doesn't leave much to being a defender the way Paladin does, but i was looking at level 3+

Im versed on spells and class skills and abilities for the classes. Just looking for some insight and opinions on which the community thinks would be better as an overall defender Level 3-9 ish

-Armorer for larger parties.
-pally for consistency.

Rune knight is also a strong pick All around if you don't want to be tied to spell casting.

[Mastikator]

IMO artillerist is a better defender than the armorer because of the protector eldritch cannon.

However I would put forward the twilight cleric as the supreme defender build.

Ancients paladin is really good at defending once the auras kick in.

[GutterFace]

IMO artillerist is a better defender than the armorer because of the protector eldritch cannon.

However I would put forward the twilight cleric as the supreme defender build.

Ancients paladin is really good at defending once the auras kick in.

I would have done Artillerist again but i just played them with this group in our last game

[GutterFace]

-Armorer for larger parties.
-pally for consistency.

Rune knight is also a strong pick All around if you don't want to be tied to spell casting.

Rune knight....I forgot all about them...good call

[OldTrees1]

Armorer Artificer primarily helps with AC*.
*Don't forget at 2nd level you give infusions to your allies
Ancients Paladin primary helps with Saves and Healing**
**Artificer can heal but it does not compare to the paladin's better spell list
The better defender depends on which is the bigger risk (more likely threat & lower defenses). I suggest paladin but either works.

For the paladin I suggest the Blessed Warrior, Interceptor, or Protection fighting styles.

Spoiler: Artificer summarized

Show

Artificer:
2nd - 2 Infusions for your allies to wear {Enhanced Defense: +1 AC}
3rd - Thunder Gauntlets: If you hit, your enemy gain disadvantage on attacks vs others
5th - Extra Attack Thunder Gauntlets
6th - 3 Infusions for your allies to wear {Enhanced Defense: +1 AC}
10th - 4 Infusions for your allies to wear {Enhanced Defense: +2 AC OR Cloak of Protection: +1 AC and +1 Saves}

Artificer Spells (1st/5th/9th):
1st - Cure Wounds
1st - Sanctuary
2nd - Aid
2nd - Invisibility (a different Sanctuary)
2nd - Lesser Restoration
3rd - Intellect Fortress
3rd - Protection from Energy
3rd - Revivify

[Hairfish]

Going paladin and maxing out CHA asap is pretty much the best defensive thing you can do for the party, especially if you're going Ancients. Everything else is icing on the cake.

[RogueJK]

Armorer Artificer primarily helps with AC*.

No. The Armoror makes a great Defender because of their Thunder Gauntlets. It causes enemies you hit to have Disadvantage on all attacks against your allies. And since you have Extra Attack, you can protect your allies from up to two enemies per turn.

It's similar to the Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, just without the added damage resistance for allies, but with the ability to debuff two enemies per round instead.

[Kane0]

No. The Armoror makes a great Defender because of their Thunder Gauntlets. It causes enemies you hit to have Disadvantage on all attacks against your allies. And since you have Extra Attack, you can protect your allies from up to two enemies per turn.

It's similar to the Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, just without the added damage resistance for allies, but with the ability to debuff two enemies per round instead.

And can cast spells.

[OldTrees1]

No.

... I said that. You are not disagreeing with me.

3rd - Thunder Gauntlets: If you hit, your enemy gain disadvantage on attacks vs others

The Armorer Thunder Gauntlets are one of the ways the Armorer helps primarily with the AC defense of your allies. Yes it imposes disadvantage on the enemies attacks vs the ally's AC, but that is still the ally's AC defense. This is in contrast to Paladin focusing more on the Saves defense with Aura of Protection, and either Devotion (select immunities) or Ancient's (resistance to sources that primarily target saves) special auras.

[kingcheesepants]

I actually like Flash of Genius more than the paladin aura. Sure it's a limited use as opposed to the paladin's always on aura and yes at 7 paladins get some cool improvements to the aura. But there are just so many times when the party needs or wants to spread out and 30 ft gives you so much more leeway than the paladins 10 ft. Plus imposing disadvantage, infusions and more spells. I'd say the Artificer comes out a bit ahead, though both are great.

[stoutstien]

IMO the paladin has great effect in two areas. They have a lot of "win more" and "seat belt" options. while they do have spells as a shared resource for stuff like CDs, aura, and LoH protect the player from themselves.

The artificer as a whole, which is enhanced by armorer, has a more even spread across the board and can fine tune their kit to reinforce weak points.for example FoG is both more limited but more flexible than pally bubbles (clutch ability checks can be worth a lot more than a few hp at some tables). They are like a solar panel for the party that can stretch resources and save time. The only place they suffer is nova damage potential in a personal sense. They do still help others nova harder and cheaper. It's not a play style that gets a lot of love but done well it can rock.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

Hey all...

So more of a question for the group, looking for opinions on picking a defender/tank type for an upcoming game.

We have a pretty well balanced party across skills/spells and some melee. So I am picking last.

Im torn between Ancients Paladin or Armorer Artificer. More background is im not looking to multiclass and sticking more to core races.
I know Artificer's first 2 levels doesn't leave much to being a defender the way Paladin does, but i was looking at level 3+

Im versed on spells and class skills and abilities for the classes. Just looking for some insight and opinions on which the community thinks would be better as an overall defender Level 3-9 ish

The thing about being a defender, and what you're missing out, is that there's not a lot of reasons to target your character... Mechanically speaking. You can get one or two at a time but when I think of a defender I think of 4e and well, there's really only one way to wade into a horde of enemies and keep them focused on you in 5e.

So, while mechanics don't really help, there is something that will. Something that no DM worth their salt will be able to resit.

A word so scary that even the most die-hard forum goers, the most knowledgeable of cheese, the most pun-pun of all players shiver when they hear it spoken (or see it written).

Spoiler: Taboo Knowledge

Show

ROLE-PLAYING

Spit on your enemies

Call them names

Tell them you slept with their mom or dad... Or mom AND dad.

Oh, their parents are dead, you knew that, that's why you dug up their remains. This skull you have that's fashioned as a hand puppet? Yeah that's their loved one.

Mock them in their own voice, or a bad imitation of their voice.

Ask them if they're gonna cry.

Some mechanical things will help. Grab the Actor Feat and study creatures during downtime. Grab the Keen Mind feat just in case the DM asks "how do you remember the correct pitch/accent".

Have a caster friend use Prestidigitation to make the air smell like crap and be all "You don't have to soil yourself, I wasn't gonna hurt you that bad, dang". Had a fighter that would fling cow crap at enemies (fighter had cow as a steed), so if you don't want to rely on someone else, there's that option.

Go to town on enemies. Get a book of different insults from all over the world (I suggest Duck Duck Go for searching on the internet). Insult your enemies like no tomorrow.

So, if you're set on those two classes, Paladin is the choice I would go with.

But Trickery Cleric is another option. Misdirection the Class at its finest. Those domain spells are just, really good at messing with enemies. When one enemy is insulting you its pretty bad, but when two copies of the same person is doing the Triple H "suck it" motion... Well, that's just a bit more grating".


Languages are your friends. Sure, being insulted in common will work but when a human (or other common race) pulls out an exotic language perfectly, well, the target knows you mean business.

This doesn't mean you have to be a clown. Or the entire circus. You can flavor your character however you want. You can have a chef background and be Gordon Ramsey if you like.

Meta: Additionally, don't underestimate the ability to make a DM laugh or be distracted. Come up with a good enough insult, gesture, or whatever and the DM can get thrown off their game and make a mistake with the NPCs actions. I made a DM forget that a mage had magic item that would cast polymorph (we were there to steal it). The DM was too busy trying to deal with my bullcrap that they just didn't use it (I almost felt bad)

[Auranghzeb]

The thing about being a defender, and what you're missing out, is that there's not a lot of reasons to target your character... Mechanically speaking. You can get one or two at a time but when I think of a defender I think of 4e and well, there's really only one way to wade into a horde of enemies and keep them focused on you in 5e.

So, while mechanics don't really help, there is something that will. Something that no DM worth their salt will be able to resit.

A word so scary that even the most die-hard forum goers, the most knowledgeable of cheese, the most pun-pun of all players shiver when they hear it spoken (or see it written).

Spoiler: Taboo Knowledge

Show

ROLE-PLAYING

Spit on your enemies

Call them names

Tell them you slept with their mom or dad... Or mom AND dad.

Oh, their parents are dead, you knew that, that's why you dug up their remains. This skull you have that's fashioned as a hand puppet? Yeah that's their loved one.

Mock them in their own voice, or a bad imitation of their voice.

Ask them if they're gonna cry.

Some mechanical things will help. Grab the Actor Feat and study creatures during downtime. Grab the Keen Mind feat just in case the DM asks "how do you remember the correct pitch/accent".

Have a caster friend use Prestidigitation to make the air smell like crap and be all "You don't have to soil yourself, I wasn't gonna hurt you that bad, dang". Had a fighter that would fling cow crap at enemies (fighter had cow as a steed), so if you don't want to rely on someone else, there's that option.

Go to town on enemies. Get a book of different insults from all over the world (I suggest Duck Duck Go for searching on the internet). Insult your enemies like no tomorrow.

So, if you're set on those two classes, Paladin is the choice I would go with.

But Trickery Cleric is another option. Misdirection the Class at its finest. Those domain spells are just, really good at messing with enemies. When one enemy is insulting you its pretty bad, but when two copies of the same person is doing the Triple H "suck it" motion... Well, that's just a bit more grating".


Languages are your friends. Sure, being insulted in common will work but when a human (or other common race) pulls out an exotic language perfectly, well, the target knows you mean business.

This doesn't mean you have to be a clown. Or the entire circus. You can flavor your character however you want. You can have a chef background and be Gordon Ramsey if you like.

Meta: Additionally, don't underestimate the ability to make a DM laugh or be distracted. Come up with a good enough insult, gesture, or whatever and the DM can get thrown off their game and make a mistake with the NPCs actions. I made a DM forget that a mage had magic item that would cast polymorph (we were there to steal it). The DM was too busy trying to deal with my bullcrap that they just didn't use it (I almost felt bad)

I was going to suggest the same, but you did it with much more grace!

Defender can suck to role play, you really have to be motivated and committed so don't make the choice on mechanics, make it on the character you want to run.
I'm currently running a "defender" battle master archer. Basically running around the battlefield using my bonus actions to gran temp HP and my superiority dice to make enemies roll with disadvantage to anyone but me, picked up Mage initiate Bard to get Silvery Barbs and Vicious Mockery. Think Robin Hood with Peter Parker's personality. Is it as powerful as a Paladin? No, but paladins are boring.

[XmonkTad]

I'm currently running a "defender" battle master archer. Basically running around the battlefield using my bonus actions to gran temp HP and my superiority dice to make enemies roll with disadvantage to anyone but me, picked up Mage initiate Bard to get Silvery Barbs and Vicious Mockery. Think Robin Hood with Peter Parker's personality. Is it as powerful as a Paladin? No, but paladins are boring.

Silvery Barbs, Vicious Mockery and, by any chance, Friends?

But that's exactly right. The defender/tank archetype requires some method of getting focused by your enemies. Being the most dangerous works for some enemies, being the weakest-looking or injured for others. But for anything with a brain, being the most frustrating can work wonders.

From an optimization standpoint, Paladin gets my vote. Saving throw bonuses and CHA synergy with MI:Bard for "threat generation" make it the standout. I'm not sure if MI would be too close to multiclassing, but if that's off limits paladin would still get my vote for the saving throw stuff. That's just too good for the whole party (and hard to get from other sources) to pass up.

[Sherlockpwns]

I want to toss in the idea that there is some “party dependent” possibilities.

As already pointed out if everyone in the party has solid ac (17+) then armorer makes a lot of sense. However, if there is only one person with low AC there’s a pretty solid argument for a cleric casting warding bond (paladin can too now but it takes a lot longer and uses your limited resources more).

In particular Light Cleric will eventually let you impose disadvantage on some attackers and has the benefit of being able to lob fireballs.

It’s a somewhat non obvious choice along with ancestral barb, armorer, and paladin that is more caster than melee protector. But don’t underestimate how much staying power a cleric with aura of vitality and warding bond with warding flare can add. Just be sure to get war caster or something to help with those concentration saves asap.

[Skrum]

Some might call this cheese, but -

warforged fighter 1 forged cleric X
take war caster for your first feat

take defensive fighting style (+1 AC)
warforged (+1 AC)
blessing of the forge (+1 AC)
soul of the forge (+1 AC)

blessing and soul have conditions, but they're easy to meet, and the bottom line is you can have as high as 24 AC without magic items by level 7

proficiency with con saves and war caster means you're very good at maintaining concentration

cast bless, heat metal, or spirit guardians, wade in, and then support your allies clerically. Incredibly tanky, and nearly full casting

[Frogreaver]

My favorite defender build ever
Barbarian 3 to 5/ Rogue X. I went Totem Barbarian and Swashbuckler Rogue for tons of mobility and great survivability and an easy to proc sneak attack. Focused Str and Con so I could grapple. Could dual wield (normally your first turn is raging so by the time you needed both weapons out on turn 2 you could easily do so).

Anyways, the whole idea was to use high damage OA's to incentivize the enemy I had engaged to stay engaged with me. Barring that I could grapple. And barring all that I had the mobility to catch up to whatever enemy I wanted to prioritize.

For a Defender Build it was highly effective.

Between Paladin and Artificer
I like the Artificer Defender better. If the goal is to have enemies focus on your pc over your allies then artificer does a better job of incentivizing that. I prefer his save boost to the Paladins due to range (and he doesn't have to sacrifice offense ASI's to make it stronger). Infusions and more attunement slots later are also real game changers. Has good mobility options, also has access to ranged damage cantrips + guidance.

Paladin is still really good, but he usually shines the brightest when smiting down critical targets fast, which has serious drawbacks in longer adventuring days. Shield of Faith is good, but it makes you more of a turtle than a defender.

On Clerics
Life Cleric would be my number one choice if I was counting Clerics as defenders (I view them more as support but it's a fine line I guess). The channel divinity keeps you and your allies alive. Tack on Bless/Spirit Guardians/Aura of Vitality or whatever good concentration spell you have and you've got a strong but possibly boring character to keep your allies alive. Twilight is good, but the requirement of a turn 1 action to activate the channel divinity hurts a bit- that and it's banned at enough tables coupled with it usually detracting from fun at the table and unless asked specifically about it I wouldn't recommend it.