Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

[Infernally Clay]

This show just came out on February 27th, or at least the first two episodes did, and for anyone who is unfamiliar with the show it is based on a fictionalised account of the life of an English sailor called William Adams who traveled to Japan and ended up becoming a very influential and important figure in the formative years of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

The names have been changed around (William Adams is called John Blackthorne, for example, and Tokugawa Ieyasu is called Torinaga Yoshii) and events are of course being dramatised or exaggerated, but the show should avoid the "white saviour" tropes. It is called Shogun, after all, not John Blackthorne, so the protagonist should be clear.

Anyway, the first two episodes are pretty amazing and there's a healthy balance of drama, intrigue and action. Anyone else seen it or planning to? What are your thoughts on the show, if any, so far?

[truemane]

Shogun is maybe my all-time favourite novel. Not necessarily the best book I've ever read, but certainly the one I enjoy the most. My desert-island novel, if you will. I read it when I was 15 and it's what got me interested in Japanese history, Japanese cinema and Eastern philosophy.

I'm going to wait until all the eps are out before I binge, but I'm very excited about it. Everything I've seen or read so far makes me think they managed to avoid the novel's many significant pitfalls and really get it done right.

I cannot wait to see it.

[t209]

Part of me wonder if the series was made in response to William Adam story popularity surge after Nioh.

[Velaryon]

I'm very interested in this, though I plan to wait until the whole series is available. I'm a huge fan of the book (as well as most of the author's other books), and I liked the 70's adaptation with Richard Chamberlain and Toshiro Mifune. I'm happy to see this get some modern polish, and maybe if it's successful we'll get adaptations of some of his other books too.

The names have been changed around (William Adams is called John Blackthorne, for example, and Tokugawa Ieyasu is called Torinaga Yoshii) and events are of course being dramatised or exaggerated, but the show should avoid the "white saviour" tropes. It is called Shogun, after all, not John Blackthorne, so the protagonist should be clear.

I think this is a pretty safe assumption. The show writers would have to work to inject the white savior trope, since it really wasn't there in the book. What I always took from the book, as well as James Clavell's other works, was that in his view Eastern and Western cultures had a lot of positive and negative qualities, and could learn a lot of things from one another. It seemed a remarkably even-handed view to me, considering the author spent a long time in a Japanese POW camp during World War II.

Plus, doesn't the new show give top billing to Lord Toranaga's actor, rather than Blackthorne's?

[truemane]

The names have been changed around (William Adams is called John Blackthorne, for example, and Tokugawa Ieyasu is called Torinaga Yoshii) and events are of course being dramatised or exaggerated [...]

What's hilarious (to me, anyway) is the extremely eccentric variance between the names in the novel and their real life counterparts. Some of them are completely different and some of them are only slightly different. And some are basically the same. The real life counterpart of "Ishido" was "Ishida." The real counterpart of Akechi Jinsai is Akechi Mitsuhide. So weird.

It is called Shogun, after all, not John Blackthorne, so the protagonist should be clear.

I haven't seen the show yet, but the protagonist of the novel is unmistakably John Blackthorne. The novel doesn't actually have a Shogun in it.

The show writers would have to work to inject the white savior trope, since it really wasn't there in the book. What I always took from the book, as well as James Clavell's other works, was that in his view Eastern and Western cultures had a lot of positive and negative qualities [...]

It's interesting that's your takeaway. To me the book was pretty clear that (aside from guns and greed) Western culture was backwards trash compared to a beatific and perfect Japan where even the lowest, poorest peasants were educated, articulate, and madly supportive of their own oppression.

The novel's intensely romanticized orientalism was one of the pitfalls I was really concerned about.

Note this isn't a criticism! I'm on record loving the novel and I think the exotisicm is a feature, not a bug. It written way before the internet, when no one in North America really knew anything at all about Japanese history, and Clavell was clearly leaning HARD into the alien culture tropes.

Plus, doesn't the new show give top billing to Lord Toranaga's actor, rather than Blackthorne's?

I suspect that's more because Hiroyuki Sanada is a cinematic giant, whereas this is Cosmo Jarvis' first real outing as headliner.

[Cikomyr2]

Shogun is my favourite novel, I've discovered new details, nuances and subplots every time ive reread it.

I never had the feeling Blackthorn was in anyway a "white Savior" or anything like that. He definetly is a man above his peers, but his skillset is navigation, european war tactics and other actually character-justified. He never gets good at swordfight, he talks in Japanese with a bad accent, and is always considered an outsider from Japanese politics and culture.

Hell, he keeps a pistol on him at all time because he knows he doesnt stand a chance against a samurai who trained with a sword all his life.

Shogun, for me, is about the clashing of two parallel worlds; the Japanese and the European. Both worlds are in turmoil, with centuries-long wars having left a mark on their respective cultures. The Protestant/Catholic conflict in Europe, and the Sengoku Jidai in Japan.

Until Blackthorn's arrival, japanese were misled to believe Catholics were the only relevant power in Europe, and thus assumed they HAD to trade through them. The arrival of diverging powers who could rival the Catholics and challenge their monopoly on silk trade is a game changer for everyone involved, and Toranaga immediately sees it.

Ultimately, the "main" character/Point of View character may be Blackthorn, but the story is about Toranaga. Its about how Toranaga adapts to the changing rules of the game better than any other rivals. The story starts with Toranaga seemingly at his weakest.

Blackthorn is not the Savior coming in to save Toranaga's ass. Blackthorn is a pebble that starts a landslide that will completely reshape the face of Japan.

[t209]

Shogun is my favourite novel, I've discovered new details, nuances and subplots every time ive reread it.

I never had the feeling Blackthorn was in anyway a "white Savior" or anything like that. He definetly is a man above his peers, but his skillset is navigation, european war tactics and other actually character-justified. He never gets good at swordfight, he talks in Japanese with a bad accent, and is always considered an outsider from Japanese politics and culture.

Hell, he keeps a pistol on him at all time because he knows he doesnt stand a chance against a samurai who trained with a sword all his life.

Shogun, for me, is about the clashing of two parallel worlds; the Japanese and the European. Both worlds are in turmoil, with centuries-long wars having left a mark on their respective cultures. The Protestant/Catholic conflict in Europe, and the Sengoku Jidai in Japan.

Until Blackthorn's arrival, japanese were misled to believe Catholics were the only relevant power in Europe, and thus assumed they HAD to trade through them. The arrival of diverging powers who could rival the Catholics and challenge their monopoly on silk trade is a game changer for everyone involved, and Toranaga immediately sees it.

Ultimately, the "main" character/Point of View character may be Blackthorn, but the story is about Toranaga. Its about how Toranaga adapts to the changing rules of the game better than any other rivals. The story starts with Toranaga seemingly at his weakest.

Blackthorn is not the Savior coming in to save Toranaga's ass. Blackthorn is a pebble that starts a landslide that will completely reshape the face of Japan.

It's interesting that's your takeaway. To me the book was pretty clear that (aside from guns and greed) Western culture was backwards trash compared to a beatific and perfect Japan where even the lowest, poorest peasants were educated, articulate, and madly supportive of their own oppression.

The novel's intensely romanticized orientalism was one of the pitfalls I was really concerned about.

Note this isn't a criticism! I'm on record loving the novel and I think the exotisicm is a feature, not a bug. It written way before the internet, when no one in North America really knew anything at all about Japanese history, and Clavell was clearly leaning HARD into the alien culture tropes.

I suspect that's more because Hiroyuki Sanada is a cinematic giant, whereas this is Cosmo Jarvis' first real outing as headliner.

Also part of me also feel that the reader and critics also reflected on “white savior” due to lack of cultural and historical context, second hand passing, and orientalism being the mainstream view. Like most won’t be aware about Samurai adopting firearms, or just based only on Japanese cultural norms of that show’s period but ignore that western values (like Blackthorne’s hesistance on bathing and puritanism of European religion).
Not sure if novel and series were different since latter was more well known than former. As far as I know, novel readers said that the miniseries cut out or simplified the novel’s plot and contexts.

[Infernally Clay]

I must admit I did laugh when he was like "Bathe? Twice in one week? Do you want me to CONTRACT A TERRIBLE DISEASE?"

[snowblizz]

Everything I've seen or read so far makes me think they managed to avoid the novel's many significant pitfalls and really get it done right.

They did not. Depending on what you consider the novel's pitfalls ofc, but my favourite history reddit is awash with question and the answer is invariably Shogun the series has got historical stuff wrong for unclear reasons.

[Velaryon]

It's interesting that's your takeaway. To me the book was pretty clear that (aside from guns and greed) Western culture was backwards trash compared to a beatific and perfect Japan where even the lowest, poorest peasants were educated, articulate, and madly supportive of their own oppression.

The novel's intensely romanticized orientalism was one of the pitfalls I was really concerned about.

Note this isn't a criticism! I'm on record loving the novel and I think the exotisicm is a feature, not a bug. It written way before the internet, when no one in North America really knew anything at all about Japanese history, and Clavell was clearly leaning HARD into the alien culture tropes.

I suspect that's more because Hiroyuki Sanada is a cinematic giant, whereas this is Cosmo Jarvis' first real outing as headliner.

It has admittedly been many years since my last read of the book, but from the way I think I remember it, James Clavell tried to portray what he saw as both the positives and negatives of feudal Japanese culture. On the one hand, you do have the peasants being comparatively more educated, more hygienic, and even more sexually open-minded (I recall a scene in which Blackthorne's reluctance to bed a concubine is mistaken for his possibly being homosexual, and his hosts are like "alright, did you want a boy then?" much to his furious denial). But on the other hand, I think Blackthorne remained sharply critical of the way samurai could slaughter peasants in cold blood for minor offenses, as well as Buntaro's abusiveness toward Mariko. I wouldn't argue that perhaps the Japanese came out ahead if you were to do a side-by-side comparison of the positive and negative traits of them compared to the Europeans in the novel, but I could also attribute that to the fact the book was written for western audiences, and therefore a little bit of tilting in favor of Japan might have felt necessary at the time (especially given the way Asian-Americans had been perceived in the last few decades at that point).

I never had the feeling Blackthorn was in anyway a "white Savior" or anything like that. He definetly is a man above his peers, but his skillset is navigation, european war tactics and other actually character-justified. He never gets good at swordfight, he talks in Japanese with a bad accent, and is always considered an outsider from Japanese politics and culture.

I agree strongly. Blackthorne is portrayed as a cut above most of the other European characters in the novel, yet still with much to learn from the Japanese. Even by the end of the story, he still comes off as at least a little naive, making all sorts of plans about how he can set up trade between England and Japan, while behind his back Toranaga is all "yeah, we need to make sure anjin-san never sets foot outside Japan again. And while we're at it, start closing up the country to foreigners entirely." Blackthorne is very much the POV character, but it's not like he's the one leading Toranaga's forces to victory or anything like that.

[truemane]

They did not. Depending on what you consider the novel's pitfalls ofc, but my favourite history reddit is awash with question and the answer is invariably Shogun the series has got historical stuff wrong for unclear reasons.

Oh no, I never considered "historical inaccuracy" to be one of the novel's pitfalls. Complaining about historical inaccuracy in a work of fiction has always struck me a strange thing to do.

[t209]

Oh no, I never considered "historical inaccuracy" to be one of the novel's pitfalls. Complaining about historical inaccuracy in a work of fiction has always struck me a strange thing to do.

Depends on what type of fiction.
It wouldn't be strange if it's historical fiction, or event with fictionalized characters, that focuses on the contrast between Western culture and Japanese culture.

[Mechalich]

Note this isn't a criticism! I'm on record loving the novel and I think the exotisicm is a feature, not a bug. It written way before the internet, when no one in North America really knew anything at all about Japanese history, and Clavell was clearly leaning HARD into the alien culture tropes.

Shogun was written in 1975. Sir George Sansom's History of Japan, written in English in three volumes was released from 1958 to 1963, with the relevant volume II being released in 1961. Shogun, as a novel, operates right around Sansom's level of scholarship and has a number of shared opinions, notably lauding Ieyasu while dumping on Nobunaga, though Clavell certainly added a lot of personalization to the material. The most notable historical aversion from the novel is that, as far as I can recall, it pretty much completely ignores the Imjin War, the Japanese invasion of Korea from 1592-1598 in which Japanese troops were engaged up until Hideyoshi's death in 1598 and for which official peace negotiations were still underway in 1600 when the novel begins. This is a rather significant omission since that war, which Japan didn't exactly lose but definitely did not achieve the goals they set out to meet, had massive consequences for the political landscape in Japan at the time.

It has admittedly been many years since my last read of the book, but from the way I think I remember it, James Clavell tried to portray what he saw as both the positives and negatives of feudal Japanese culture. On the one hand, you do have the peasants being comparatively more educated, more hygienic, and even more sexually open-minded (I recall a scene in which Blackthorne's reluctance to bed a concubine is mistaken for his possibly being homosexual, and his hosts are like "alright, did you want a boy then?" much to his furious denial). But on the other hand, I think Blackthorne remained sharply critical of the way samurai could slaughter peasants in cold blood for minor offenses, as well as Buntaro's abusiveness toward Mariko. I wouldn't argue that perhaps the Japanese came out ahead if you were to do a side-by-side comparison of the positive and negative traits of them compared to the Europeans in the novel, but I could also attribute that to the fact the book was written for western audiences, and therefore a little bit of tilting in favor of Japan might have felt necessary at the time (especially given the way Asian-Americans had been perceived in the last few decades at that point).

Shogun, and certain other Clavell novels, such as Tai-Pan (published nine years earlier), very specifically laud East Asian hygiene practices above European ones and are quite heavy-handed in doing so. In fairness to Clavell, I suspect this is a result of exposure to bad scholarship regarding European life in the Early Modern Period - a nice comparative example is the scene with the peasants in Monty Python's Holy Grail, which also came out in 1975 - as much as it is rose-tinted glasses regarding the realities of life in China and Japan during the same timeframe.

[Cikomyr2]

I keep my belief Shogun is about the clash of two cultures, highlighting what is great and terrible about both, and how the contact can improve or diminish both cultures when done for the worst of reasons.

Japanese are shown as educated, liberally minded about sexuality, hygienic, and well disciplined society. They are also shown as violent, value the superficial values of honor and duty rather than the spirit of these values, are xenophobic and turned inward to the degree they let things happen outside their islands that definetly concerns them but in their arrogance decide to ignore.

Europeans hardly came out as better.

Its about cultural exchange and stress. Some people embrace it, others do not. Others fight against it.

[truemane]

Shogun was written in 1975. Sir George Sansom's History of Japan, written in English in three volumes was released from 1958 to 1963, with the relevant volume II being released in 1961. Shogun, as a novel, operates right around Sansom's level of scholarship and has a number of shared opinions, notably lauding Ieyasu while dumping on Nobunaga, though Clavell certainly added a lot of personalization to the material. The most notable historical aversion from the novel is that, as far as I can recall, it pretty much completely ignores the Imjin War, the Japanese invasion of Korea from 1592-1598 in which Japanese troops were engaged up until Hideyoshi's death in 1598 and for which official peace negotiations were still underway in 1600 when the novel begins. This is a rather significant omission since that war, which Japan didn't exactly lose but definitely did not achieve the goals they set out to meet, had massive consequences for the political landscape in Japan at the time.

"No one in North America" was (admittedly ill-advised) hyperbole. I just meant that Japanese history and culture hadn't penetrated the zeitgeist in any meaningful way.

The novel does actually spend a reasonable amount of time talking about the Korean Campaign. It comes up several times, often in the context that it was a foolish waste of time and resources and was a disaster for Nakamura (Toyotomi Hideyoshi).

It just positions the campaign as basically over and done with.

The biggest difference, to my mind, is how much stake the novel puts on the 500 guns recovered from Blackthorne's ship. The novel treats this cache (and the 'novel' strategy of creating a dedicated musket regiment) as a significant factor in the looming conflict, with a lot of time spent talking about how the shocking, unheard of innovation could be used to win one significant conflict before all of Japan saw how awesome guns were and followed suit.

But there were lots of guns in Japan by 1600 and there had been specially trained musket regiments for decades by that point (including in the Korean Campaign).

[Cikomyr2]

"No one in North America" was (admittedly ill-advised) hyperbole. I just meant that Japanese history and culture hadn't penetrated the zeitgeist in any meaningful way.

The novel does actually spend a reasonable amount of time talking about the Korean Campaign. It comes up several times, often in the context that it was a foolish waste of time and resources and was a disaster for Nakamura (Toyotomi Hideyoshi).

It just positions the campaign as basically over and done with.

The biggest difference, to my mind, is how much stake the novel puts on the 500 guns recovered from Blackthorne's ship. The novel treats this cache (and the 'novel' strategy of creating a dedicated musket regiment) as a significant factor in the looming conflict, with a lot of time spent talking about how the shocking, unheard of innovation could be used to win one significant conflict before all of Japan saw how awesome guns were and followed suit.

But there were lots of guns in Japan by 1600 and there had been specially trained musket regiments for decades by that point (including in the Korean Campaign).

Which is all very funny. Because when you think about it, the real treasure of the Erasmus wasnt the guns or the canons. It was the ship herself. A modern European ship.

Especially since a big part the Korean invasion failed so miserably is that Japanese had a ****ty navy, and Admiral Yi of the Korean Navy came up with "turtle ships" which could stand up to anything Japaneses threw at them and destroyed a great many deals of ships really important to the invasion. Had they had the Erasmus, Admiral Yi wouldn't have made a dent in the Japanese invasion.

[t209]

So I just wonder why Shogun remain the only one adapted novel from James Clavell series…and also the only famous one.
Like people are speculating season 2—even though it’s done—yet have no idea about Tai-pan and others.

[Rodin]

"No one in North America" was (admittedly ill-advised) hyperbole. I just meant that Japanese history and culture hadn't penetrated the zeitgeist in any meaningful way.

The novel does actually spend a reasonable amount of time talking about the Korean Campaign. It comes up several times, often in the context that it was a foolish waste of time and resources and was a disaster for Nakamura (Toyotomi Hideyoshi).

It just positions the campaign as basically over and done with.

The biggest difference, to my mind, is how much stake the novel puts on the 500 guns recovered from Blackthorne's ship. The novel treats this cache (and the 'novel' strategy of creating a dedicated musket regiment) as a significant factor in the looming conflict, with a lot of time spent talking about how the shocking, unheard of innovation could be used to win one significant conflict before all of Japan saw how awesome guns were and followed suit.

But there were lots of guns in Japan by 1600 and there had been specially trained musket regiments for decades by that point (including in the Korean Campaign).

I was rather pleased to see that the show has already referenced both the Korean campaign and the pre-existing guns in Japan. Several people have referenced fighting in Korea, although no depth has been gone into so far. And at another point someone mentions the guns as the prize to be fought over and is scornfully rebuked as Japan already has guns and cannon. The real prize is how Blackthorne and his ship upset the status quo.

[Cikomyr2]

I was rather pleased to see that the show has already referenced both the Korean campaign and the pre-existing guns in Japan. Several people have referenced fighting in Korea, although no depth has been gone into so far. And at another point someone mentions the guns as the prize to be fought over and is scornfully rebuked as Japan already has guns and cannon. The real prize is how Blackthorne and his ship upset the status quo.

At least in last episode Blackthorne really shows the difference advanced modern guns make. Everyone actually accept this as some tactical advantage.

[Velaryon]

So I just wonder why Shogun remain the only one adapted novel from James Clavell series…and also the only famous one.
Like people are speculating season 2—even though it’s done—yet have no idea about Tai-pan and others.

At least in last episode Blackthorne really shows the difference advanced modern guns make. Everyone actually accept this as some tactical advantage.

It's not the only one. Noble House got a miniseries adaptation starring Pierce Brosnan in 1988. I know I've seen it, but I don't really remember anything about it. According to Wikipedia, it did poorly in ratings because it ran up against the Winter Olympics.

[Dragonus45]

This show just came out on February 27th, or at least the first two episodes did, and for anyone who is unfamiliar with the show it is based on a fictionalised account of the life of an English sailor called William Adams who traveled to Japan and ended up becoming a very influential and important figure in the formative years of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

The names have been changed around (William Adams is called John Blackthorne, for example, and Tokugawa Ieyasu is called Torinaga Yoshii) and events are of course being dramatised or exaggerated, but the show should avoid the "white saviour" tropes. It is called Shogun, after all, not John Blackthorne, so the protagonist should be clear.

Anyway, the first two episodes are pretty amazing and there's a healthy balance of drama, intrigue and action. Anyone else seen it or planning to? What are your thoughts on the show, if any, so far?

It makes me think a bit about that Marco Polo series Netflix had a while back, which was pretty good if not great. I think an idea like this that fictionalizes the characters and events is a better approach then tying it to a real historical figure though.

[Cikomyr2]

It makes me think a bit about that Marco Polo series Netflix had a while back, which was pretty good if not great. I think an idea like this that fictionalizes the characters and events is a better approach then tying it to a real historical figure though.

While what you say is true, all of it was the product of the book, not the series.

The book fictionalized everyone except the Queen of England.

[t209]

So just wondering how different are the novel, the 80’s, and current one differ?

[pendell]

I'm very interested in this, though I plan to wait until the whole series is available. I'm a huge fan of the book (as well as most of the author's other books), and I liked the 70's adaptation with Richard Chamberlain and Toshiro Mifune. I'm happy to see this get some modern polish, and maybe if it's successful we'll get adaptations of some of his other books too.



I think this is a pretty safe assumption. The show writers would have to work to inject the white savior trope, since it really wasn't there in the book. What I always took from the book, as well as James Clavell's other works, was that in his view Eastern and Western cultures had a lot of positive and negative qualities, and could learn a lot of things from one another. It seemed a remarkably even-handed view to me, considering the author spent a long time in a Japanese POW camp during World War II.

Plus, doesn't the new show give top billing to Lord Toranaga's actor, rather than Blackthorne's?

One of James Clavelle's less popular books, King Rat is an almost-autobiographical barely-fictionalized account of his time in a Japanese POW camp. He would write Shogun in the 1970s after three years of research. If he had any lingering resentment of Japan or the Japanese .. it does show a bit in the novel, as some of the samurai are extremely brutal and cruel. Which he had obviously encountered in their descendants. But apparently he had come to the conclusion there was more to the culture than just brutality. It's not like Japan is unique in world history for having that particular failing.

I would not describe Adams-***-Blackthorne as any kind of saviour. If anything ... back in the 1970s and 1980s, animated shows about history or religion would often add in some superfluous time-traveling kids with some wise mentor figure to go around and see the various historical events. I assume that, given these shows were targeting young children but were about adults, they needed some children as audience identification characters for the characters to put in their shoes.

Well, what kind of person would you expect to be reading a historical drama about Japan in a 1960s western novel? Enter John Blackthorne, a fish-out-of-water audience stand-in who is completely ignorant about Japan and the culture, so that we can have other members of the cast explain the intricacies of culture, custom and language without it being forced or requiring a lengthy exposition dump. James Clavelle was a screenwriter before he was a novelist; small wonder the book itself has a degree of that pacing. The fact that there really was a historical westerner living in Japan at the time simply made it better; it would save him inventing an entirely fictionalized sailor to carry the role.

The story has elements of Isekai in that Blackthorne has "died" -- he will never return to England or see his family again -- and is forced to find a new life in a new world, leveraging his pre-existing knowledge and expertise to find a place. Except this is a story written for adults, so his knowledge and experience doesn't allow him to become the ruler of the country. It does, however, allow him to be given honor as a samurai -- practically unheard-of in Japan -- and an advisor to the future Shogun. His knowledge and advice also allows the future Shogun to break with the Portuguese Jesuits who monopolize contact with Japan at the time which , given this is very close to the era of the Armada, is all to the good from English Blackthorne's point of view. So he "saves" Japan, in a sense, in that it remains an independent country rather than a colony such as the Philippines. Whether that was ever a realistic possibility, or whether the real Adams played any significant role in preventing it, is of course irrelevant to the needs of fiction.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[lowfyr]

So I just wonder why Shogun remain the only one adapted novel from James Clavell series…and also the only famous one.
Like people are speculating season 2—even though it’s done—yet have no idea about Tai-pan and others.

Tai-Pan was adapted as a movie and Noble House was on TV with Pierce Brosnan as the lead.

[Ruck]

I was mostly here to check if there was a Shōgun thread, and you did not disappoint. Caught the penultimate episode last night when it dropped, and wow.

This show rules; probably the best on TV so far this year.

I haven't seen the show yet, but the protagonist of the novel is unmistakably John Blackthorne. The novel doesn't actually have a Shogun in it.

I'd say Blackthorne is the protagonist in the show, in that it's his arrival and actions that really spur the events of the story, but that's not the same as being the hero, and he's definitely not the white savior.

On the one hand, you do have the peasants being comparatively more educated, more hygienic, and even more sexually open-minded (I recall a scene in which Blackthorne's reluctance to bed a concubine is mistaken for his possibly being homosexual, and his hosts are like "alright, did you want a boy then?" much to his furious denial). But on the other hand, I think Blackthorne remained sharply critical of the way samurai could slaughter peasants in cold blood for minor offenses, as well as Buntaro's abusiveness toward Mariko.

Yeah, that's all in the show.

[Clertar]

What an amazing TV series, really a class act.

For those familiar with Clavell's works, besides Shogun, what novel of his is a must read?

Could this series and its success be heralding a pendulum shift towards hyper-detailed historical fiction in "premium TV", after a decade+ of fantasy and superheroes? If so, I'm all for it.

(With Kingdom Come:Deliverance II coming out this year, maybe we'll even see an HBO-level series on the Hussite wars in the near-mid future. An adaptation of Sapkowski's Hussite trilogy, if done with the love and excellence that we've seen in Shogun, could be incredible.)

[pendell]

What an amazing TV series, really a class act.

For those familiar with Clavell's works, besides Shogun, what novel of his is a must read?

Could this series and its success be heralding a pendulum shift towards hyper-detailed historical fiction in "premium TV", after a decade+ of fantasy and superheroes? If so, I'm all for it.

(With Kingdom Come:Deliverance II coming out this year, maybe we'll even see an HBO-level series on the Hussite wars in the near-mid future. An adaptation of Sapkowski's Hussite trilogy, if done with the love and excellence that we've seen in Shogun, could be incredible.)

We-ell, these are his novels that I remember:
Shogun
Taipan
Noble House
Whirlwind
King Rat

"King Rat" is an fictionalized autobiographical story of his experiences in the Changgi prisoner-of-war camp during WWII. Interesting , certainly, but probably the weakest offering.

Taipan is a fictionalized retelling of the founding of Hong Kong. Like Shogun, you have fictionalized opium smugglers/pirates-turned-business-magnates scheming against each other. Dirk Struan and Tyler Brock are probably fictionalized versions of William Jardine and James Matheson, who eventually founded Jardine-Matheson (= Brock-STruan in the novel) resulting in the massive conglomerate of the same name.

I would say it's the most readable and interesting of the other books and the closest thing there is to a "can't-miss". Certainly it's the only other book that was made into a TV miniseries. Even so, it is very much pro-Imperialism and pro-British Empire, not to mention making a hero out of an opium smuggler. This would probably get it classified as Problematic with a capital "P", and means it will not be remade any time soon.

"Noble House" is a direct sequel to Tai-pan and takes place in 1962 Hong Kong. The descendants of the first book are still in business in Hong Kong, and the book follows as they try to navigate their way to a profit past civil war, KMT agents, PRC agents, KGB agents, and American businesses trying to launch takeover bids. Most interesting for the fact that the "boomers" show up as teenagers in this story and annoy their parents, who are almost to a man and woman WWII vets. The protaganist flew Spitfires in the battle of britain before being shot down and invalided out.

It's ... okay, I guess , but my goodness is it long.

"Whirlwind" is the sequel to Noble House and follows events in the Iranian revolution of 1979. I've never really paid much attention to this one, to be honest, but I may change my mind and give it a second chance.

In any case, my personal recommendation is Tai-Pan, if you can stomach the problematic elements, and King Rat if you're interested in that aspect of history. The others ... only if you really like Tai-pan.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cikomyr2]

What an amazing TV series, really a class act.

For those familiar with Clavell's works, besides Shogun, what novel of his is a must read?

Could this series and its success be heralding a pendulum shift towards hyper-detailed historical fiction in "premium TV", after a decade+ of fantasy and superheroes? If so, I'm all for it.

(With Kingdom Come:Deliverance II coming out this year, maybe we'll even see an HBO-level series on the Hussite wars in the near-mid future. An adaptation of Sapkowski's Hussite trilogy, if done with the love and excellence that we've seen in Shogun, could be incredible.)

I found that Tai-Pan was, for about 1/5th of the book onward, to be as pleasant to read as Shogun. Bit less of a political-shattering climax, but still a good one.

The problem with Tai-Pan is that the book opens with one MASSIVE infodump about every single character that the intrigue will revolve around. Everyone of these infodump comes back, and actually reading the story unfold of these characters is truly great.

But imagine Shogun if the first chapters were dedicated exploring the entire backstory of Blackthorn, Tsukku-san, Toranaga, Rodrigue-san, Yabu, Omi, Mariko, Hiromatsu, Ochiba.

It all comes into play when things get going and Clavell is great at writing drama. But i felt Shogun's strenght was the ease at which he expands the universe of his novel. Starting extremely focused on Blackthorn/Anjiro to get going, and slowly adding elements as they are introduced to Blackthorn.

Tai-Pan is as strong of a mid- and -ending, but man be prepared to slog through the start.


I never really got into Gai-jin tho.