New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 26 of 26
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Infernally Clay's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Female

    Default Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]


    This show just came out on February 27th, or at least the first two episodes did, and for anyone who is unfamiliar with the show it is based on a fictionalised account of the life of an English sailor called William Adams who traveled to Japan and ended up becoming a very influential and important figure in the formative years of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

    The names have been changed around (William Adams is called John Blackthorne, for example, and Tokugawa Ieyasu is called Torinaga Yoshii) and events are of course being dramatised or exaggerated, but the show should avoid the "white saviour" tropes. It is called Shogun, after all, not John Blackthorne, so the protagonist should be clear.

    Anyway, the first two episodes are pretty amazing and there's a healthy balance of drama, intrigue and action. Anyone else seen it or planning to? What are your thoughts on the show, if any, so far?
    "Don't think of it as dying," said Death,
    "Just think of it as leaving early to avoid the rush."

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Archmage in the Playground Moderator
     
    truemane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Grognardia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Shogun is maybe my all-time favourite novel. Not necessarily the best book I've ever read, but certainly the one I enjoy the most. My desert-island novel, if you will. I read it when I was 15 and it's what got me interested in Japanese history, Japanese cinema and Eastern philosophy.

    I'm going to wait until all the eps are out before I binge, but I'm very excited about it. Everything I've seen or read so far makes me think they managed to avoid the novel's many significant pitfalls and really get it done right.

    I cannot wait to see it.
    (Avatar by Cuthalion, who is great.)

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    t209's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Part of me wonder if the series was made in response to William Adam story popularity surge after Nioh.
    Badly drawn helmet avatar drawn by me.
    Rest in Peace:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Miko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
    Krunch- Looking For Group
    Bill- Left 4 Dead
    Soap Mactavish- Modern Warfare 3
    Sandman- Modern Warfare 3
    Ghost and Roach- Modern Warfare 2
    Gabe- Dead Space 2
    Dom- Gears of War 3
    Carmine Brothers- Gears of War series
    Uriel Septim VII- Elderscrolls Oblivion
    Commander Shepherd- Mass Effect 3
    Ned Stark- Song of Ice and Fire
    Apple Jack's parents

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    I'm very interested in this, though I plan to wait until the whole series is available. I'm a huge fan of the book (as well as most of the author's other books), and I liked the 70's adaptation with Richard Chamberlain and Toshiro Mifune. I'm happy to see this get some modern polish, and maybe if it's successful we'll get adaptations of some of his other books too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    The names have been changed around (William Adams is called John Blackthorne, for example, and Tokugawa Ieyasu is called Torinaga Yoshii) and events are of course being dramatised or exaggerated, but the show should avoid the "white saviour" tropes. It is called Shogun, after all, not John Blackthorne, so the protagonist should be clear.
    I think this is a pretty safe assumption. The show writers would have to work to inject the white savior trope, since it really wasn't there in the book. What I always took from the book, as well as James Clavell's other works, was that in his view Eastern and Western cultures had a lot of positive and negative qualities, and could learn a lot of things from one another. It seemed a remarkably even-handed view to me, considering the author spent a long time in a Japanese POW camp during World War II.

    Plus, doesn't the new show give top billing to Lord Toranaga's actor, rather than Blackthorne's?
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Work is the scourge of the gaming classes!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Neither Evershifting List of Perfectly Prepared Spells nor Grounds to Howl at the DM If I Ever Lose is actually a wizard class feature.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Archmage in the Playground Moderator
     
    truemane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Grognardia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    The names have been changed around (William Adams is called John Blackthorne, for example, and Tokugawa Ieyasu is called Torinaga Yoshii) and events are of course being dramatised or exaggerated [...]
    What's hilarious (to me, anyway) is the extremely eccentric variance between the names in the novel and their real life counterparts. Some of them are completely different and some of them are only slightly different. And some are basically the same. The real life counterpart of "Ishido" was "Ishida." The real counterpart of Akechi Jinsai is Akechi Mitsuhide. So weird.

    It is called Shogun, after all, not John Blackthorne, so the protagonist should be clear.
    I haven't seen the show yet, but the protagonist of the novel is unmistakably John Blackthorne. The novel doesn't actually have a Shogun in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velaryon View Post
    The show writers would have to work to inject the white savior trope, since it really wasn't there in the book. What I always took from the book, as well as James Clavell's other works, was that in his view Eastern and Western cultures had a lot of positive and negative qualities [...]
    It's interesting that's your takeaway. To me the book was pretty clear that (aside from guns and greed) Western culture was backwards trash compared to a beatific and perfect Japan where even the lowest, poorest peasants were educated, articulate, and madly supportive of their own oppression.

    The novel's intensely romanticized orientalism was one of the pitfalls I was really concerned about.

    Note this isn't a criticism! I'm on record loving the novel and I think the exotisicm is a feature, not a bug. It written way before the internet, when no one in North America really knew anything at all about Japanese history, and Clavell was clearly leaning HARD into the alien culture tropes.

    Plus, doesn't the new show give top billing to Lord Toranaga's actor, rather than Blackthorne's?
    I suspect that's more because Hiroyuki Sanada is a cinematic giant, whereas this is Cosmo Jarvis' first real outing as headliner.
    (Avatar by Cuthalion, who is great.)

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2020

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Shogun is my favourite novel, I've discovered new details, nuances and subplots every time ive reread it.

    I never had the feeling Blackthorn was in anyway a "white Savior" or anything like that. He definetly is a man above his peers, but his skillset is navigation, european war tactics and other actually character-justified. He never gets good at swordfight, he talks in Japanese with a bad accent, and is always considered an outsider from Japanese politics and culture.

    Hell, he keeps a pistol on him at all time because he knows he doesnt stand a chance against a samurai who trained with a sword all his life.

    Shogun, for me, is about the clashing of two parallel worlds; the Japanese and the European. Both worlds are in turmoil, with centuries-long wars having left a mark on their respective cultures. The Protestant/Catholic conflict in Europe, and the Sengoku Jidai in Japan.

    Until Blackthorn's arrival, japanese were misled to believe Catholics were the only relevant power in Europe, and thus assumed they HAD to trade through them. The arrival of diverging powers who could rival the Catholics and challenge their monopoly on silk trade is a game changer for everyone involved, and Toranaga immediately sees it.

    Ultimately, the "main" character/Point of View character may be Blackthorn, but the story is about Toranaga. Its about how Toranaga adapts to the changing rules of the game better than any other rivals. The story starts with Toranaga seemingly at his weakest.

    Blackthorn is not the Savior coming in to save Toranaga's ass. Blackthorn is a pebble that starts a landslide that will completely reshape the face of Japan.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    t209's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Shogun is my favourite novel, I've discovered new details, nuances and subplots every time ive reread it.

    I never had the feeling Blackthorn was in anyway a "white Savior" or anything like that. He definetly is a man above his peers, but his skillset is navigation, european war tactics and other actually character-justified. He never gets good at swordfight, he talks in Japanese with a bad accent, and is always considered an outsider from Japanese politics and culture.

    Hell, he keeps a pistol on him at all time because he knows he doesnt stand a chance against a samurai who trained with a sword all his life.

    Shogun, for me, is about the clashing of two parallel worlds; the Japanese and the European. Both worlds are in turmoil, with centuries-long wars having left a mark on their respective cultures. The Protestant/Catholic conflict in Europe, and the Sengoku Jidai in Japan.

    Until Blackthorn's arrival, japanese were misled to believe Catholics were the only relevant power in Europe, and thus assumed they HAD to trade through them. The arrival of diverging powers who could rival the Catholics and challenge their monopoly on silk trade is a game changer for everyone involved, and Toranaga immediately sees it.

    Ultimately, the "main" character/Point of View character may be Blackthorn, but the story is about Toranaga. Its about how Toranaga adapts to the changing rules of the game better than any other rivals. The story starts with Toranaga seemingly at his weakest.

    Blackthorn is not the Savior coming in to save Toranaga's ass. Blackthorn is a pebble that starts a landslide that will completely reshape the face of Japan.
    Quote Originally Posted by truemane View Post
    It's interesting that's your takeaway. To me the book was pretty clear that (aside from guns and greed) Western culture was backwards trash compared to a beatific and perfect Japan where even the lowest, poorest peasants were educated, articulate, and madly supportive of their own oppression.

    The novel's intensely romanticized orientalism was one of the pitfalls I was really concerned about.

    Note this isn't a criticism! I'm on record loving the novel and I think the exotisicm is a feature, not a bug. It written way before the internet, when no one in North America really knew anything at all about Japanese history, and Clavell was clearly leaning HARD into the alien culture tropes.

    I suspect that's more because Hiroyuki Sanada is a cinematic giant, whereas this is Cosmo Jarvis' first real outing as headliner.
    Also part of me also feel that the reader and critics also reflected on “white savior” due to lack of cultural and historical context, second hand passing, and orientalism being the mainstream view. Like most won’t be aware about Samurai adopting firearms, or just based only on Japanese cultural norms of that show’s period but ignore that western values (like Blackthorne’s hesistance on bathing and puritanism of European religion).
    Not sure if novel and series were different since latter was more well known than former. As far as I know, novel readers said that the miniseries cut out or simplified the novel’s plot and contexts.
    Last edited by t209; 2024-03-02 at 03:24 PM.
    Badly drawn helmet avatar drawn by me.
    Rest in Peace:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Miko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
    Krunch- Looking For Group
    Bill- Left 4 Dead
    Soap Mactavish- Modern Warfare 3
    Sandman- Modern Warfare 3
    Ghost and Roach- Modern Warfare 2
    Gabe- Dead Space 2
    Dom- Gears of War 3
    Carmine Brothers- Gears of War series
    Uriel Septim VII- Elderscrolls Oblivion
    Commander Shepherd- Mass Effect 3
    Ned Stark- Song of Ice and Fire
    Apple Jack's parents

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Infernally Clay's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    I must admit I did laugh when he was like "Bathe? Twice in one week? Do you want me to CONTRACT A TERRIBLE DISEASE?"
    "Don't think of it as dying," said Death,
    "Just think of it as leaving early to avoid the rush."

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by truemane View Post
    Everything I've seen or read so far makes me think they managed to avoid the novel's many significant pitfalls and really get it done right.
    They did not. Depending on what you consider the novel's pitfalls ofc, but my favourite history reddit is awash with question and the answer is invariably Shogun the series has got historical stuff wrong for unclear reasons.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by truemane View Post
    It's interesting that's your takeaway. To me the book was pretty clear that (aside from guns and greed) Western culture was backwards trash compared to a beatific and perfect Japan where even the lowest, poorest peasants were educated, articulate, and madly supportive of their own oppression.

    The novel's intensely romanticized orientalism was one of the pitfalls I was really concerned about.

    Note this isn't a criticism! I'm on record loving the novel and I think the exotisicm is a feature, not a bug. It written way before the internet, when no one in North America really knew anything at all about Japanese history, and Clavell was clearly leaning HARD into the alien culture tropes.

    I suspect that's more because Hiroyuki Sanada is a cinematic giant, whereas this is Cosmo Jarvis' first real outing as headliner.
    It has admittedly been many years since my last read of the book, but from the way I think I remember it, James Clavell tried to portray what he saw as both the positives and negatives of feudal Japanese culture. On the one hand, you do have the peasants being comparatively more educated, more hygienic, and even more sexually open-minded (I recall a scene in which Blackthorne's reluctance to bed a concubine is mistaken for his possibly being homosexual, and his hosts are like "alright, did you want a boy then?" much to his furious denial). But on the other hand, I think Blackthorne remained sharply critical of the way samurai could slaughter peasants in cold blood for minor offenses, as well as Buntaro's abusiveness toward Mariko. I wouldn't argue that perhaps the Japanese came out ahead if you were to do a side-by-side comparison of the positive and negative traits of them compared to the Europeans in the novel, but I could also attribute that to the fact the book was written for western audiences, and therefore a little bit of tilting in favor of Japan might have felt necessary at the time (especially given the way Asian-Americans had been perceived in the last few decades at that point).


    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    I never had the feeling Blackthorn was in anyway a "white Savior" or anything like that. He definetly is a man above his peers, but his skillset is navigation, european war tactics and other actually character-justified. He never gets good at swordfight, he talks in Japanese with a bad accent, and is always considered an outsider from Japanese politics and culture.
    I agree strongly. Blackthorne is portrayed as a cut above most of the other European characters in the novel, yet still with much to learn from the Japanese. Even by the end of the story, he still comes off as at least a little naive, making all sorts of plans about how he can set up trade between England and Japan, while behind his back Toranaga is all "yeah, we need to make sure anjin-san never sets foot outside Japan again. And while we're at it, start closing up the country to foreigners entirely." Blackthorne is very much the POV character, but it's not like he's the one leading Toranaga's forces to victory or anything like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Work is the scourge of the gaming classes!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Neither Evershifting List of Perfectly Prepared Spells nor Grounds to Howl at the DM If I Ever Lose is actually a wizard class feature.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Archmage in the Playground Moderator
     
    truemane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Grognardia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    They did not. Depending on what you consider the novel's pitfalls ofc, but my favourite history reddit is awash with question and the answer is invariably Shogun the series has got historical stuff wrong for unclear reasons.
    Oh no, I never considered "historical inaccuracy" to be one of the novel's pitfalls. Complaining about historical inaccuracy in a work of fiction has always struck me a strange thing to do.
    (Avatar by Cuthalion, who is great.)

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    t209's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by truemane View Post
    Oh no, I never considered "historical inaccuracy" to be one of the novel's pitfalls. Complaining about historical inaccuracy in a work of fiction has always struck me a strange thing to do.
    Depends on what type of fiction.
    It wouldn't be strange if it's historical fiction, or event with fictionalized characters, that focuses on the contrast between Western culture and Japanese culture.
    Badly drawn helmet avatar drawn by me.
    Rest in Peace:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Miko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
    Krunch- Looking For Group
    Bill- Left 4 Dead
    Soap Mactavish- Modern Warfare 3
    Sandman- Modern Warfare 3
    Ghost and Roach- Modern Warfare 2
    Gabe- Dead Space 2
    Dom- Gears of War 3
    Carmine Brothers- Gears of War series
    Uriel Septim VII- Elderscrolls Oblivion
    Commander Shepherd- Mass Effect 3
    Ned Stark- Song of Ice and Fire
    Apple Jack's parents

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by truemane View Post
    Note this isn't a criticism! I'm on record loving the novel and I think the exotisicm is a feature, not a bug. It written way before the internet, when no one in North America really knew anything at all about Japanese history, and Clavell was clearly leaning HARD into the alien culture tropes.
    Shogun was written in 1975. Sir George Sansom's History of Japan, written in English in three volumes was released from 1958 to 1963, with the relevant volume II being released in 1961. Shogun, as a novel, operates right around Sansom's level of scholarship and has a number of shared opinions, notably lauding Ieyasu while dumping on Nobunaga, though Clavell certainly added a lot of personalization to the material. The most notable historical aversion from the novel is that, as far as I can recall, it pretty much completely ignores the Imjin War, the Japanese invasion of Korea from 1592-1598 in which Japanese troops were engaged up until Hideyoshi's death in 1598 and for which official peace negotiations were still underway in 1600 when the novel begins. This is a rather significant omission since that war, which Japan didn't exactly lose but definitely did not achieve the goals they set out to meet, had massive consequences for the political landscape in Japan at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velaryon
    It has admittedly been many years since my last read of the book, but from the way I think I remember it, James Clavell tried to portray what he saw as both the positives and negatives of feudal Japanese culture. On the one hand, you do have the peasants being comparatively more educated, more hygienic, and even more sexually open-minded (I recall a scene in which Blackthorne's reluctance to bed a concubine is mistaken for his possibly being homosexual, and his hosts are like "alright, did you want a boy then?" much to his furious denial). But on the other hand, I think Blackthorne remained sharply critical of the way samurai could slaughter peasants in cold blood for minor offenses, as well as Buntaro's abusiveness toward Mariko. I wouldn't argue that perhaps the Japanese came out ahead if you were to do a side-by-side comparison of the positive and negative traits of them compared to the Europeans in the novel, but I could also attribute that to the fact the book was written for western audiences, and therefore a little bit of tilting in favor of Japan might have felt necessary at the time (especially given the way Asian-Americans had been perceived in the last few decades at that point).
    Shogun, and certain other Clavell novels, such as Tai-Pan (published nine years earlier), very specifically laud East Asian hygiene practices above European ones and are quite heavy-handed in doing so. In fairness to Clavell, I suspect this is a result of exposure to bad scholarship regarding European life in the Early Modern Period - a nice comparative example is the scene with the peasants in Monty Python's Holy Grail, which also came out in 1975 - as much as it is rose-tinted glasses regarding the realities of life in China and Japan during the same timeframe.
    Now publishing a webnovel travelogue.

    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2020

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    I keep my belief Shogun is about the clash of two cultures, highlighting what is great and terrible about both, and how the contact can improve or diminish both cultures when done for the worst of reasons.

    Japanese are shown as educated, liberally minded about sexuality, hygienic, and well disciplined society. They are also shown as violent, value the superficial values of honor and duty rather than the spirit of these values, are xenophobic and turned inward to the degree they let things happen outside their islands that definetly concerns them but in their arrogance decide to ignore.

    Europeans hardly came out as better.

    Its about cultural exchange and stress. Some people embrace it, others do not. Others fight against it.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Archmage in the Playground Moderator
     
    truemane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Grognardia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Shogun was written in 1975. Sir George Sansom's History of Japan, written in English in three volumes was released from 1958 to 1963, with the relevant volume II being released in 1961. Shogun, as a novel, operates right around Sansom's level of scholarship and has a number of shared opinions, notably lauding Ieyasu while dumping on Nobunaga, though Clavell certainly added a lot of personalization to the material. The most notable historical aversion from the novel is that, as far as I can recall, it pretty much completely ignores the Imjin War, the Japanese invasion of Korea from 1592-1598 in which Japanese troops were engaged up until Hideyoshi's death in 1598 and for which official peace negotiations were still underway in 1600 when the novel begins. This is a rather significant omission since that war, which Japan didn't exactly lose but definitely did not achieve the goals they set out to meet, had massive consequences for the political landscape in Japan at the time.
    "No one in North America" was (admittedly ill-advised) hyperbole. I just meant that Japanese history and culture hadn't penetrated the zeitgeist in any meaningful way.

    The novel does actually spend a reasonable amount of time talking about the Korean Campaign. It comes up several times, often in the context that it was a foolish waste of time and resources and was a disaster for Nakamura (Toyotomi Hideyoshi).

    It just positions the campaign as basically over and done with.

    The biggest difference, to my mind, is how much stake the novel puts on the 500 guns recovered from Blackthorne's ship. The novel treats this cache (and the 'novel' strategy of creating a dedicated musket regiment) as a significant factor in the looming conflict, with a lot of time spent talking about how the shocking, unheard of innovation could be used to win one significant conflict before all of Japan saw how awesome guns were and followed suit.

    But there were lots of guns in Japan by 1600 and there had been specially trained musket regiments for decades by that point (including in the Korean Campaign).
    (Avatar by Cuthalion, who is great.)

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2020

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by truemane View Post
    "No one in North America" was (admittedly ill-advised) hyperbole. I just meant that Japanese history and culture hadn't penetrated the zeitgeist in any meaningful way.

    The novel does actually spend a reasonable amount of time talking about the Korean Campaign. It comes up several times, often in the context that it was a foolish waste of time and resources and was a disaster for Nakamura (Toyotomi Hideyoshi).

    It just positions the campaign as basically over and done with.

    The biggest difference, to my mind, is how much stake the novel puts on the 500 guns recovered from Blackthorne's ship. The novel treats this cache (and the 'novel' strategy of creating a dedicated musket regiment) as a significant factor in the looming conflict, with a lot of time spent talking about how the shocking, unheard of innovation could be used to win one significant conflict before all of Japan saw how awesome guns were and followed suit.

    But there were lots of guns in Japan by 1600 and there had been specially trained musket regiments for decades by that point (including in the Korean Campaign).
    Which is all very funny. Because when you think about it, the real treasure of the Erasmus wasnt the guns or the canons. It was the ship herself. A modern European ship.

    Especially since a big part the Korean invasion failed so miserably is that Japanese had a ****ty navy, and Admiral Yi of the Korean Navy came up with "turtle ships" which could stand up to anything Japaneses threw at them and destroyed a great many deals of ships really important to the invasion. Had they had the Erasmus, Admiral Yi wouldn't have made a dent in the Japanese invasion.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    t209's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    So I just wonder why Shogun remain the only one adapted novel from James Clavell series…and also the only famous one.
    Like people are speculating season 2—even though it’s done—yet have no idea about Tai-pan and others.
    Badly drawn helmet avatar drawn by me.
    Rest in Peace:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Miko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
    Krunch- Looking For Group
    Bill- Left 4 Dead
    Soap Mactavish- Modern Warfare 3
    Sandman- Modern Warfare 3
    Ghost and Roach- Modern Warfare 2
    Gabe- Dead Space 2
    Dom- Gears of War 3
    Carmine Brothers- Gears of War series
    Uriel Septim VII- Elderscrolls Oblivion
    Commander Shepherd- Mass Effect 3
    Ned Stark- Song of Ice and Fire
    Apple Jack's parents

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by truemane View Post
    "No one in North America" was (admittedly ill-advised) hyperbole. I just meant that Japanese history and culture hadn't penetrated the zeitgeist in any meaningful way.

    The novel does actually spend a reasonable amount of time talking about the Korean Campaign. It comes up several times, often in the context that it was a foolish waste of time and resources and was a disaster for Nakamura (Toyotomi Hideyoshi).

    It just positions the campaign as basically over and done with.

    The biggest difference, to my mind, is how much stake the novel puts on the 500 guns recovered from Blackthorne's ship. The novel treats this cache (and the 'novel' strategy of creating a dedicated musket regiment) as a significant factor in the looming conflict, with a lot of time spent talking about how the shocking, unheard of innovation could be used to win one significant conflict before all of Japan saw how awesome guns were and followed suit.

    But there were lots of guns in Japan by 1600 and there had been specially trained musket regiments for decades by that point (including in the Korean Campaign).
    I was rather pleased to see that the show has already referenced both the Korean campaign and the pre-existing guns in Japan. Several people have referenced fighting in Korea, although no depth has been gone into so far. And at another point someone mentions the guns as the prize to be fought over and is scornfully rebuked as Japan already has guns and cannon. The real prize is how Blackthorne and his ship upset the status quo.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2020

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I was rather pleased to see that the show has already referenced both the Korean campaign and the pre-existing guns in Japan. Several people have referenced fighting in Korea, although no depth has been gone into so far. And at another point someone mentions the guns as the prize to be fought over and is scornfully rebuked as Japan already has guns and cannon. The real prize is how Blackthorne and his ship upset the status quo.
    At least in last episode Blackthorne really shows the difference advanced modern guns make. Everyone actually accept this as some tactical advantage.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by t209 View Post
    So I just wonder why Shogun remain the only one adapted novel from James Clavell series…and also the only famous one.
    Like people are speculating season 2—even though it’s done—yet have no idea about Tai-pan and others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    At least in last episode Blackthorne really shows the difference advanced modern guns make. Everyone actually accept this as some tactical advantage.
    It's not the only one. Noble House got a miniseries adaptation starring Pierce Brosnan in 1988. I know I've seen it, but I don't really remember anything about it. According to Wikipedia, it did poorly in ratings because it ran up against the Winter Olympics.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Work is the scourge of the gaming classes!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Neither Evershifting List of Perfectly Prepared Spells nor Grounds to Howl at the DM If I Ever Lose is actually a wizard class feature.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Dragonus45's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Knoxville Tennessee
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post

    This show just came out on February 27th, or at least the first two episodes did, and for anyone who is unfamiliar with the show it is based on a fictionalised account of the life of an English sailor called William Adams who traveled to Japan and ended up becoming a very influential and important figure in the formative years of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

    The names have been changed around (William Adams is called John Blackthorne, for example, and Tokugawa Ieyasu is called Torinaga Yoshii) and events are of course being dramatised or exaggerated, but the show should avoid the "white saviour" tropes. It is called Shogun, after all, not John Blackthorne, so the protagonist should be clear.

    Anyway, the first two episodes are pretty amazing and there's a healthy balance of drama, intrigue and action. Anyone else seen it or planning to? What are your thoughts on the show, if any, so far?
    It makes me think a bit about that Marco Polo series Netflix had a while back, which was pretty good if not great. I think an idea like this that fictionalizes the characters and events is a better approach then tying it to a real historical figure though.
    Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
    If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2020

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    It makes me think a bit about that Marco Polo series Netflix had a while back, which was pretty good if not great. I think an idea like this that fictionalizes the characters and events is a better approach then tying it to a real historical figure though.
    While what you say is true, all of it was the product of the book, not the series.

    The book fictionalized everyone except the Queen of England.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    t209's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    California
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    So just wondering how different are the novel, the 80’s, and current one differ?
    Badly drawn helmet avatar drawn by me.
    Rest in Peace:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Miko Miyazaki, Thanh, Durkon- Order of the Stick
    Krunch- Looking For Group
    Bill- Left 4 Dead
    Soap Mactavish- Modern Warfare 3
    Sandman- Modern Warfare 3
    Ghost and Roach- Modern Warfare 2
    Gabe- Dead Space 2
    Dom- Gears of War 3
    Carmine Brothers- Gears of War series
    Uriel Septim VII- Elderscrolls Oblivion
    Commander Shepherd- Mass Effect 3
    Ned Stark- Song of Ice and Fire
    Apple Jack's parents

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by Velaryon View Post
    I'm very interested in this, though I plan to wait until the whole series is available. I'm a huge fan of the book (as well as most of the author's other books), and I liked the 70's adaptation with Richard Chamberlain and Toshiro Mifune. I'm happy to see this get some modern polish, and maybe if it's successful we'll get adaptations of some of his other books too.



    I think this is a pretty safe assumption. The show writers would have to work to inject the white savior trope, since it really wasn't there in the book. What I always took from the book, as well as James Clavell's other works, was that in his view Eastern and Western cultures had a lot of positive and negative qualities, and could learn a lot of things from one another. It seemed a remarkably even-handed view to me, considering the author spent a long time in a Japanese POW camp during World War II.

    Plus, doesn't the new show give top billing to Lord Toranaga's actor, rather than Blackthorne's?
    One of James Clavelle's less popular books, King Rat is an almost-autobiographical barely-fictionalized account of his time in a Japanese POW camp. He would write Shogun in the 1970s after three years of research. If he had any lingering resentment of Japan or the Japanese .. it does show a bit in the novel, as some of the samurai are extremely brutal and cruel. Which he had obviously encountered in their descendants. But apparently he had come to the conclusion there was more to the culture than just brutality. It's not like Japan is unique in world history for having that particular failing.

    I would not describe Adams-***-Blackthorne as any kind of saviour. If anything ... back in the 1970s and 1980s, animated shows about history or religion would often add in some superfluous time-traveling kids with some wise mentor figure to go around and see the various historical events. I assume that, given these shows were targeting young children but were about adults, they needed some children as audience identification characters for the characters to put in their shoes.

    Well, what kind of person would you expect to be reading a historical drama about Japan in a 1960s western novel? Enter John Blackthorne, a fish-out-of-water audience stand-in who is completely ignorant about Japan and the culture, so that we can have other members of the cast explain the intricacies of culture, custom and language without it being forced or requiring a lengthy exposition dump. James Clavelle was a screenwriter before he was a novelist; small wonder the book itself has a degree of that pacing. The fact that there really was a historical westerner living in Japan at the time simply made it better; it would save him inventing an entirely fictionalized sailor to carry the role.

    The story has elements of Isekai in that Blackthorne has "died" -- he will never return to England or see his family again -- and is forced to find a new life in a new world, leveraging his pre-existing knowledge and expertise to find a place. Except this is a story written for adults, so his knowledge and experience doesn't allow him to become the ruler of the country. It does, however, allow him to be given honor as a samurai -- practically unheard-of in Japan -- and an advisor to the future Shogun. His knowledge and advice also allows the future Shogun to break with the Portuguese Jesuits who monopolize contact with Japan at the time which , given this is very close to the era of the Armada, is all to the good from English Blackthorne's point of view. So he "saves" Japan, in a sense, in that it remains an independent country rather than a colony such as the Philippines. Whether that was ever a realistic possibility, or whether the real Adams played any significant role in preventing it, is of course irrelevant to the needs of fiction.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2012

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    Quote Originally Posted by t209 View Post
    So I just wonder why Shogun remain the only one adapted novel from James Clavell series…and also the only famous one.
    Like people are speculating season 2—even though it’s done—yet have no idea about Tai-pan and others.
    Tai-Pan was adapted as a movie and Noble House was on TV with Pierce Brosnan as the lead.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Ruck's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

    I was mostly here to check if there was a Shōgun thread, and you did not disappoint. Caught the penultimate episode last night when it dropped, and wow.

    This show rules; probably the best on TV so far this year.

    Quote Originally Posted by truemane View Post
    I haven't seen the show yet, but the protagonist of the novel is unmistakably John Blackthorne. The novel doesn't actually have a Shogun in it.
    I'd say Blackthorne is the protagonist in the show, in that it's his arrival and actions that really spur the events of the story, but that's not the same as being the hero, and he's definitely not the white savior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velaryon View Post
    On the one hand, you do have the peasants being comparatively more educated, more hygienic, and even more sexually open-minded (I recall a scene in which Blackthorne's reluctance to bed a concubine is mistaken for his possibly being homosexual, and his hosts are like "alright, did you want a boy then?" much to his furious denial). But on the other hand, I think Blackthorne remained sharply critical of the way samurai could slaughter peasants in cold blood for minor offenses, as well as Buntaro's abusiveness toward Mariko.
    Yeah, that's all in the show.
    Last edited by Ruck; 2024-04-16 at 06:55 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •