What build should have been good, but wasn't?

[Dork_Forge]

So all of your clerics, battlesmiths, valor bards, rangers, and barbarians etc are utterly useless in melee? I mean, I believe you when you say that's how it works at your table, but I truly don't find your table persuasive or representative of the wider playerbase.

Hmm, your reply makes me think I may have misunderstood you. Did you mean that is all you need (in terms of AC) or that is all you need (period)?

I disagreed with the latter, but the former is fine. HP is more important than AC imo, but that's a different kettle of fish.

[tokek]

My one for this was going to be the Darkness/Devil Sight Hexblade. A think I had heard was good but in practice I didn't think it really was.

I'm quite narrowly specific on that build because I played one and switched away from that combo and honestly found using just regular good spells like Hypnotic Pattern and Fear far better. Or the Tasha's summons which I started using later.

Hexblade felt fine, middle of the road decently effective with an emphasis on being flexible rather than having one outstanding trick. Moderate amounts of casting if you get a reasonable number of short rests, no real outstanding weakness even as a single class build. Like all warlocks I felt it hit a bit of a flat spot around levels 9-10 but it perked right up again from level 11+

The Darkness/Devil Sight build seems to be higher rated than that but honestly I don't rate it much - it was disappointing.

[Psyren]

Hmm, your reply makes me think I may have misunderstood you. Did you mean that is all you need (in terms of AC) or that is all you need (period)?

I disagreed with the latter, but the former is fine. HP is more important than AC imo, but that's a different kettle of fish.

Of course I'm not saying a Warlock with zero other class features besides scale mail and a shield would be great as their party's frontline. But that's enough of a baseline purely from an AC perspective at most tables, yes.

[Dork_Forge]

Of course I'm not saying a Warlock with zero other class features besides scale mail and a shield would be great as their party's frontline. But that's enough of a baseline purely from an AC perspective at most tables, yes.

My confusion came from you, well saying just that basically:

They get medium armor and shields; that's all you need to be a competitive frontliner, even before tricks like Darkness+Devil's Sight or buffs like Agathys

But with your clarification, yeah 19 is a fine AC.

[Psyren]

My confusion came from you, well saying just that basically:



But with your clarification, yeah 19 is a fine AC.

I didn't know I had to specify "along with other PC class features" so you wouldn't think I literally meant a Sidekick but okay. So are valor bards and clerics able to frontline at your tables or not?

[Dork_Forge]

I didn't know I had to specify "along with other PC class features" so you wouldn't think I literally meant a Sidekick but okay. So are valor bards and clerics able to frontline at your tables or not?

Psyren, it was you specifying without other class things (spells+invocations) that 'confused' me to begin with.

Of course they can, how long for and how effective they'll be will vary greatly by build and how they play. When the Barbarian/Rogue is down to single digits the near full health Glamor Bard sometimes has to facetank *shrugs*

[Skrum]

1) The DMG figures by CR are averages. Some creatures will punch above, some below. But the average tells you what you can plan for... on average.

The table gives a range of 3 numbers for each CR. CR 7 for instance is +6 to +8. +8 against AC 18 is 55% likely to hit. That's pretty high, IMO

So all of your clerics, battlesmiths, valor bards, rangers, and barbarians etc are utterly useless in melee? I mean, I believe you when you say that's how it works at your table, but I truly don't find your table persuasive or representative of the wider playerbase.

You're responding like I/we are saying having less than 20 AC causes the character to literally explode upon entering melee. Obviously, that's not the case - the point being made is what happens when a character with insufficient defenses attempts to melee as a general strategy (same principle for any character attempting a strategy for which they're underequipped). Over time, the character will take more damage, be at more risk, and suck up more party resources than a character that has better defenses. I.e...melee warlocks are a good example of "what build should have been good, but wasn't."

The class is absolutely billed as a melee character that can also cast spells. Straight hexblade with no dips serves much better as a utility/pinch hitter that can fill in other roles in emergencies.

[Dalinar]

Context: my table is sort of the opposite extreme of most, where individual encounters tend to not be hyper-lethal (mostly), but attrition is a big problem--even short rests are somewhat hard to come by, while you're lucky to get more than one long rest for an entire adventure. We've tended to bounce around between a few different T1-T2 parties, so most of us have multiple PCs running around the setting. In terms of relative balance of classes, a lot of cited issues around here haven't really cropped up--Warlocks and Rogues are both popular, full casters are kept in check by the difficulty of regaining spell slots, the half-caster players seem to get on fine (since less of their power budget is tied up in said slots anyway), I've had a good time on multiple Fighter subclasses, and the Barbs were all killing machines so that worked out for them too (two with GWM, plus the guy who did Ancestor with two Moon Druid levels, which worked out well enough).

As for the actual topic, I think my answer here would've been Sun Soul Monk, but in its defense, I don't think a single person has ever claimed that subclass "should have been good."

Gonna echo Spore Druid here as well--the one at my table has been somewhat screwed by really bad dice luck, but even considering that, wow is that subclass a struggle. We started at 3 and are at around 7-8 by this point, and over the dozens of combat encounters that took, I think they'd dealt less than 10 or so damage with Halo of Spores for the entire campaign so far up until we got them a magic item to add CON mod to the damage recently. They'd gone entire levels without a single creature failing the save, despite rolling many, and d4-d6 necrotic is chip damage (even d10 isn't impressive by the time you get it). Symbiotic Entity is a decent chunk of temp HP, but it takes an action and often only absorbs a hit or two, at which point its offensive benefits go away.

Admittedly the 6 and 14 features seem good, though. And I guess the level 10 is probably a nice contribution to chokepoint defense situations, but it's still based on your dinky Halo of Spores damage. The spell list has a few good additions, but not enough to carry by itself IMO, unless you're able to do some advanced Animate Dead strategies (wouldn't be nearly as good at my table due to gritty resting).

Other than that player, and the aforementioned Sun Soul I played, the only other time I really was disappointed in a character build was the Druid/Ranger, and that had more to do with the fact that I was trying to make it work at too low of a level and just ended up in a worst-of-both-worlds situation. DM let me respec to full Swarmkeeper and that felt way better (the idea was that Stars Druid archer attack could make up for delaying Extra Attack, but in reality I didn't have it up often enough).

[Psyren]

Of course they can

Great

You're responding like I/we are saying having less than 20 AC causes the character to literally explode upon entering melee.

When you keep saying 19 AC is "insufficient" or "inadequate" then yes, that's the impression you're conveying. And I'm not the only one in this thread who remembered your table being overtuned, either.

[Dork_Forge]

Great

Lol, don't ya just love reductionism?

The point I was initially replying to was that an AC of 19 is insufficient on it's own to be a competitive frontliner (from a defense PoV). That applies to the list you just spat out too, and awkwardly pushing me to a yes or no question and then clipping the rest of my reply to cover you contradicting yourself ain't great.

Battle Smiths can tank with medium and shields just fine, they're adding another target to the battlefield (which itself can help defend others), are likely to have a higher AC than 19 anyway, a bevy of reactions like Shield, Radiant Weapon, Repelling Shield etc. and can heal themselves in a pinch or can afford to Dodge whilst their SD does the work.

Clerics have a variety of defenses and potentially deep healing. Shield of Faith, Warding Flare etc.

Valor Bards are the weakest link there, they can at least top themselves off, but a Valor Bard without significant built considerations would have a hard time primarily tanking.

Tanking has always been about more than AC, and AC becomes increasingly redundant as you increase in levels. I run a Tier 3 game and 19 AC stopped being nice, or really 'adequate' a long time ago since monster to-hit bloats so significantly.

Edit: And tanking=frontlining for the purposes of this discussion

Alternative defenses are often more important than AC, become increasingly important as levels go up, and in reality, a good tank needs a defense built up of a net of useful things.

[Crusher]

Single SCAGtrips attacks as a replacement/equivalent to Extra Attack.

Sure, 1x SCAGtrip is certainly better than 1x standard melee attack. But 1x weapon attack roll compared to 2x(+) weapon attack rolls just doesn't end up being as satisfying. Think SCAGtrip Tomelock vs. Thirsting Bladelock. Or Paladin 2/Sorcerer X vs. Paladin 6/Sorcerer X.

It's easy to end up with:
Miss on 1x attack, wait a whole round
Miss on 1x attack, wait a whole round
Etc.

If building a weapon-focused character, those additional chances each turn to hit and actually accomplish something matter. The mathematical difference may be small, but the difference in "feel" while playing is larger.

I just realized I never actually gave a case myself, and this answer essentially nails the builds I hate the most. Rolling dice, or doing something that allows another party member to roll dice (or roll more dice), is fun for me. Making the DM roll dice via monsters attempting saving throws is fine, but less fun.

Any build that isn't able to consistently get multiple effects (attacks, targets, whatever) or use its bonus actions or reactions is a lot less fun than one that does. And single-target Save or Suck spells/abilities are the absolute worst. I've only ever played a primary caster and had it be fun (he specialized in Chronurgy spells in a campaign that revolved around time loops). I'm aware this says more about me than it does about casters which is why I generally don't play them even through they're often very powerful.

But I think my point about "rolling more dice is more fun" holds for pretty much everyone.

[RSP]

Yes, it is, unless your games are outliers in terms of difficulty…


My judgements are directed at anyone whose games are seemingly overtuned.

If your standard is “must be less difficult than WotC premades, then, yeah, you’re not operating on the standard I’m used to.

[Psyren]

The point I was initially replying to was that an AC of 19 is insufficient on it's own to be a competitive frontliner (from a defense PoV). That applies to the list you just spat out too, and awkwardly pushing me to a yes or no question and then clipping the rest of my reply to cover you contradicting yourself ain't great.

I was focusing on the part that mattered to me.

If your standard is “must be less difficult than WotC premades, then, yeah, you’re not operating on the standard I’m used to.

So WotC premades give out Plate at level 1? If not, how else are you getting 20+ AC starting out?

[RSP]

So WotC premades give out Plate at level 1? If not, how else are you getting 20+ AC starting out?

Huh? What are you talking about? I have zero idea where this question is coming from.

“Hexblades don’t have the defensive abilities to stay in melee in T2” has nothing to do with whatever you’re intending with these questions.

Personally the order I would go in if I were at your ridiculously lethal table is Agonizing Blast + Eldritch Mind at 2, then Improved Pact Weapon at 5 so I can melee and cast more easily with my shield out, then Thirsting Blade at 7. Sure you delay extra attack to 7th, but that's fine for a pure gish, Swords Bard and Bladesinger get it at 6th so you're only a level late.

But if I were at a normal table I would be okay with 16 AC for the first 6 levels.

So in addition to delaying Extra Attack on a melee frontliner with no defensive abilities, you’re forgoing Devils Sight, so you can’t even do the combo you stated makes the Hexblade workable???

[Amechra]

My greatest annoyance is that Thirsting Blade doesn't work with Shadowblade, because otherwise my TWF-using, Dex-focused Warlock gish would've actually been pretty neat (dipped a level into Draconic Sorcerer for the free Mage Armor and the two extra 1st level slots, focused my spells around out-of-combat utility instead of combat stuff, and picked up Dual Wielder of all things for the rapier and the +1 AC (I was already at max Dex due to rolling well, so...)).

[Psyren]

Huh? What are you talking about? I have zero idea where this question is coming from.

“Hexblades don’t have the defensive abilities to stay in melee in T2” has nothing to do with whatever you’re intending with these questions.

You claimed to be playing WotC premade modules. Those generally don't assume tip-top defensive optimization.

So in addition to delaying Extra Attack on a melee frontliner with no defensive abilities, you’re forgoing Devils Sight, so you can’t even do the combo you stated makes the Hexblade workable???

That combo isn't needed at a normal table. I brought it up as a hypothetical extreme measure for an extreme sort of campaign.

[Dr.Samurai]

For me it was the Pact of the Blade warlock. I played this through a one-shot and... it was... fine? I guess.

I didn't really have issues with getting knocked out or killed frequently. It was more that... once your two spell slots are consumed, you're not really doing anything except extra attacking. And if the concept is fight in melee, and also cast spells, well you're not doing the latter of those almost all the time, and the former is pretty underwhelming. I found the character seemed a bit static compared to barbarians I play, which are generally more mobile, and can move enemies around.

For my warlock, I cast one spell, and then used the other slot to smite, which was cool. But then after that, I'm just moving around swinging my weapon, without the strength to Shove my enemies or Grab them and move them around as well or keep them in place.

It was serviceable as "someone that can occasionally cast spells and won't immediately die if they stay in melee". But that was about it.

[RSP]

You claimed to be playing WotC premade modules. Those generally don't assume tip-top defensive optimization.

Yup, claimed it because it’s true! They might not require optimization, but the Hexblade still failed to be a capable frontliner.

That combo isn't needed at a normal table. I brought it up as a hypothetical extreme measure for an extreme sort of campaign.

Darkness plus Devils Sight was stated as a defensive ability of the Hexblade. But it a) doesn’t work as well as you think in practice - including playing with others, and b) takes up resources needed elsewhere.

[Skrum]

That combo isn't needed at a normal table. I brought it up as a hypothetical extreme measure for an extreme sort of campaign.

It's your position that simply having 19 AC with no additional defenses is sufficient for a frontline melee character throughout T2. A party of 4 level 9ish characters will very plausibly face CR 11, 12, 13 monsters, and 19 AC is fine. I just want to clarify, that's what you're saying.

[RSP]

Battle Smiths can tank with medium and shields just fine, they're adding another target to the battlefield (which itself can help defend others), are likely to have a higher AC than 19 anyway, a bevy of reactions like Shield, Radiant Weapon, Repelling Shield etc. and can heal themselves in a pinch or can afford to Dodge whilst their SD does the work.

Clerics have a variety of defenses and potentially deep healing. Shield of Faith, Warding Flare etc.

Valor Bards are the weakest link there, they can at least top themselves off, but a Valor Bard without significant built considerations would have a hard time primarily tanking.

Alternative defenses are often more important than AC, become increasingly important as levels go up, and in reality, a good tank needs a defense built up of a net of useful things.

Right. Valor probably is the weakest (other than Hexblade) at being in melee. But all these are capable of AC 19, and still have other defensive abilities. Don’t sleep on Valor having expertise Athletics for Shoves and Grapples.

…And Dex Save Prof. A big issue with the Hexblade is, with 14 Dex and no AE, you’re banking on lucky rolls to halve the damage on AoEs. Battlesmiths, Bladesingers, CS Sorc’s, all have access to AE. If built for melee frontlining, they all probably have good Dex too. They’ll have a 50/50-ish chance to pass the save, and then reduce the 1/2 damage to 1/4 damage. Whereas more than likely the Hexblade is failing the save (+2 Dex save) and eating full damage.

Our 9th level party (in a WotC official campaign) just faced grey slaads. Getting fireballs dropped on you repeatedly is tough when your only defense against them is +2 Dex (our Life Cleric dropped. Fortunately, my CS Sorc Gish was fine with +5 Dex, Bastion of Law and AE. I think he took 7 damage total from the encounter even though at least 3 fireballs got dropped on him. Cost him a few AEs and 5 Sorc Points (BoL), but not a bad trade off).

I know elemental Dex save damage sources isn’t unique to that one encounter. Simply having AC 19 just really isn’t enough as a defense for melee frontlining (it’s not even relevant vs non-attack sources of damage).

My greatest annoyance is that Thirsting Blade doesn't work with Shadowblade, because otherwise my TWF-using, Dex-focused Warlock gish would've actually been pretty neat (dipped a level into Draconic Sorcerer for the free Mage Armor and the two extra 1st level slots, focused my spells around out-of-combat utility instead of combat stuff, and picked up Dual Wielder of all things for the rapier and the +1 AC (I was already at max Dex due to rolling well, so...)).

Yeah, I ran into this as well: an upcast SB is 3d8+mod psychic damage, vs 1d8+mod (assuming shield). And the Advantage aspect of SB is fantastic. And at 9th level that becomes 4d8+mod per hit.

Hexblade runs into a similar issue of abilities not working with other melee range stuff: Thirsting Blade only allows two attacks when you specifically attack with your Pact Weapon. So if grappling or shoving, you just get the one attack.

[Dork_Forge]

Right. Valor probably is the weakest (other than Hexblade) at being in melee. But all these are capable of AC 19, and still have other defensive abilities. Don’t sleep on Valor having expertise Athletics for Shoves and Grapples.

I get where you're coming from, but I don't personally group Grapple and Shove into personal defense. Sure you can use it defensively, but it's not inherently a defensive ability.

…And Dex Save Prof. A big issue with the Hexblade is, with 14 Dex and no AE, you’re banking on lucky rolls to halve the damage on AoEs. Battlesmiths, Bladesingers, CS Sorc’s, all have access to AE. If built for melee frontlining, they all probably have good Dex too. They’ll have a 50/50-ish chance to pass the save, and then reduce the 1/2 damage to 1/4 damage. Whereas more than likely the Hexblade is failing the save (+2 Dex save) and eating full damage.

Dex prof is a good point, I don't think your average Battle Smith will have more than a +2 Dex, but the Artificer chassis has the epic Flash of Genius. Between infusions, spells, and features the Artificer in general (but particularly Battle Smiths) are utter tanks.

Without cycling through temp HP with Fiendish Vigor, the Hexblade really has a lot to make up for with not many ways to do so.

I know elemental Dex save damage sources isn’t unique to that one encounter. Simply having AC 19 just really isn’t enough as a defense for melee frontlining (it’s not even relevant vs non-attack sources of damage).

Having played a low level character in a certain Baldur's Gate based adventure (intro)... Yeah you need more than a good AC, sometimes especially in WotC adventures.

[RSP]

I get where you're coming from, but I don't personally group Grapple and Shove into personal defense. Sure you can use it defensively, but it's not inherently a defensive ability.

Agreed it’s not really defensive, but more a generally good to have ability for melee. It can help with positioning. Was more just pointing it out as something Valor had for being on the frontlines.

[KorvinStarmast]

Lol, don't ya just love reductionism?

The point I was initially replying to was that an AC of 19 is insufficient on it's own to be a competitive frontliner (from a defense PoV). That applies to the list you just spat out too, and awkwardly pushing me to a yes or no question and then clipping the rest of my reply to cover you contradicting yourself ain't great.

With the exception of a raging barbarian, yes. beyond Tier 1, AC 19 loses its shine rather quickly.

Valor Bards are the weakest link there, they can at least top themselves off, but a Valor Bard without significant built considerations would have a hard time primarily tanking.
Slow cast on the enemy helps (but if one is not using Tasha's expanded bard spell list, one has to wait until level 10 to get that from magical secrets).
of this discussion

So WotC premades give out Plate at level 1? If not, how else are you getting 20+ AC starting out?

I think that a warforged PC Fighter with defensive fighting style and the warforged racial.origin bonus of +1 for AC gets you to 20 with chain mail and shield.

[Blatant Beast]

1) The DMG figures by CR are averages. Some creatures will punch above, some below. But the average tells you what you can plan for... on average.
2) By the time you're fighting CR 16 creatures you're almost in Tier 4 and should have a magic item or two. The printed game explicitly sets that expectation - read DMG 37.
3) Also by the time you're fighting CR 16 creatures, your Hexblade will have long since gotten Shadow of Moil and won't need Darkness + Devil's Sight. You can even retrain the latter..

I am quite sure you are well aware of the distorting effect that finding the Average of anything has, so you are free to gracefully disengage from defending your losing argument.

My experiences with T4 play lead me to think that Armor Class is primarily more relevant to keep the Boss Tier foes minions and yard trash from hitting you, and rarely stops the blows of Empyreans and other foes of that power level ilk.
Base AC 19, is not turning the blows of Major foes on its own…it will need enhancements.

The deeper question impact Warlock Gish viability is the pace of being able to rest.

A Warlock’s ability to use Forecage, and Eldritch Smite Invocation, potentially gives a warlock control tools that on the surface appear better than a Psi Warrior’s TK Smite or Telekinesis Power. The salient question is how many Short Rests or Potions of Catnap can the Warlock effectively take?

I would rather have a Psi Warrior instead of a Warlock Gish if there is a limitation on Short Rests, either due to Houserule or narrative reasons. Hexblades are excellent Sprinters, but very poor Marathon Runners.

[Theodoxus]

I played a vhuman rogue archer with Magic initiate: Wizard for find familiar. Got the owl, used it for the help. Was great at 1st level. By 2nd, I was so tired of micromanaging the thing - it wasn't even getting targeted or anything, just keeping track of where it was, the range of the flyby to keep it out of melee at the end of its move; using its senses to see in the dark, letting that go so I could participate in combat... it was just a lot.

The broad stroke upsides matched the expectations written on the box (so to speak). The reality that isn't talked about is just how much work it is to keep going... give me a deep gnome swashbuckler every time instead... much less hassle.

[Zuras]

War domain cleric.

One of the players in our first campaign built a war domain cleric, and while he really enjoyed the Tier 1 and the beginning of Tier 2, he retired the character at level 7. Between his character concept and war cleric features, he felt it had gone as far as it could go.

War Domain is an odd duck. Its most powerful feature is War God’s Blessing, but the utility of +10 to a single attack varies wildly by campaign.

Inflict Wounds and and Guiding Bold just scale poorly, and there aren’t any high risk/high reward spells using attack rolls on the the cleric list above 1st level. It’s amazing for any campaign with ship-to-ship combat, though.

[KorvinStarmast]

War Domain...It’s amazing for any campaign with ship-to-ship combat, though.

Amazing because...why?

[Psyren]

My experiences with T4 play lead me to think that Armor Class is primarily more relevant to keep the Boss Tier foes minions and yard trash from hitting you, and rarely stops the blows of Empyreans and other foes of that power level ilk.
Base AC 19, is not turning the blows of Major foes on its own…it will need enhancements.

Yes, by the time you're in T4 play you're expected to have buffs and magic items. Not only did I say this, I linked the DMG page that says it too.

[Blatant Beast]

Amazing because...why?

“Use the Force Luke”…pulls Trigger with +10 Bonus to hit.

That is the only reason that comes to my mind, accurate cannon shots.

Psyren, what position do you believe you are refuting by bringing up magic items?
The information value of CR averages is not altered in the least by whether you have Magic items or not.

The median To Hit value for a CR class is useful, the average value is significantly less useful.

[Dr.Samurai]

“Use the Force Luke”…pulls Trigger with +10 Bonus to hit.

That is the only reason that comes to my mind, accurate cannon shots.

Hmm... normally an attack requires the Attack action, but the war cleric can make a weapon attack as a bonus action x times per day. Would that include siege weaponry like ballistas or cannons, even though they take multiple actions to attack with?