What build should have been good, but wasn't?

[Blatant Beast]

Hmm... normally an attack requires the Attack action, but the war cleric can make a weapon attack as a bonus action x times per day. Would that include siege weaponry like ballistas or cannons, even though they take multiple actions to attack with?

The verbiage is Action, so I do not think that would work.
War Cleric + Gunner, might be an interesting Gun-Fu variant.

[Keravath]

This is exactly why I never go out of my way to make sure I have a ranged weapon on melee builds. Highly likely the ranged weapon is terrible anyway (yeah I'm not putting points in dex if I'm wearing heavy armor). I think it's much more useful to get a mobility option - boots of speed are the gold standard, but the elven racial teleport is great, a gish with misty step/thunderstep, etc. In an actual combat, I'd rather spend my action dashing than making a super underwhelming ranged attack 19 times out of 20.

As for the OP question -
Hexblades, and warlocks in general. They're super fun through level 5. Starting at 6 though (approximately), they just don't have the juice. Not enough spell slots, too fragile, lackluster damage. It's impossible to not think "why didn't I play a different gish option."

I found my hexblade warlock with GWM and Shadow of Moil (by level 7 - before that they used darkness+devils sight) for advantage to hit and disadvantage to be hit actually worked quite well. Better than a barbarian for just doing damage and they always had Eldritch Blast for a fallback ranged option.

However, the character more or less requires GWM and/or PAM in order to outdamage Agonizing Blast in the long run.

[Psyren]

Psyren, what position do you believe you are refuting by bringing up magic items?

I have never said that AC 18-19 with no other buffs, features or bonuses is all you need at every level of play. So when you brought up T4 boss monsters like Empyreans (CR 23) - yes, obviously you're going to need more than mundane half-plate and a mundane shield to survive against those, the DMG says as much.

[RSP]

I found my hexblade warlock with GWM and Shadow of Moil (by level 7 - before that they used darkness+devils sight) for advantage to hit and disadvantage to be hit actually worked quite well. Better than a barbarian for just doing damage and they always had Eldritch Blast for a fallback ranged option.

However, the character more or less requires GWM and/or PAM in order to outdamage Agonizing Blast in the long run.

For me, I didn’t like having to be in the back with EB, after using my invocations and ASIs/Feats all on being effective in melee.

Shadow of Moil wasn’t that fulfilling as you’re essentially stuck doing that one thing, when able to do it. You’re still at most (assuming Conc holds) doing it twice a SR. Any more combats then that (or losing Conc) are you’re neither in melee, nor casting leveled spells.

So you can’t use great spells like Synaptic Static or Sickening Radiance, or utility spells like Fly or Invisibility; because it then means you’re sitting in the back pew-pewing rather than using any of your invocations or feats.

(And SoM only does so much in terms of damage mitigation, but that’s beside the point, here.)

Obviously, others might have different experiences, but putting all that work into making melee worthwhile (as you say, a feat is needed just to even validate the effectiveness of melee over EB, plus all the PoB invocations, as well as PoB itself), and then having to still stand back and still EB a lot just became a “why am I playing this character”?

It sounds like you enjoy it though, so maybe it’s just me. Hopefully that continues: I don’t mean to say the build can’t be fun; but it just didn’t work out that way to me once getting into T2.

[Schwann145]

If only Short Rests weren't an hour, then Warlocks could expect to actually cast more spells.

An hour is actually a long time to ask of a group that is out in their adventuring day, in presumably hostile territory. If you can find a place that's safe enough for an hour, there's no reason to think it wouldn't be safe for a Long Rest.

Otherwise? I think Warlocks should probably abandon the idea that they classify as "spellcasters" at all, but rather see Invocations as your primary focus and your spells as nothing more than a nice bonus.
If your Warlock build requires (leveled) spellcasting to function properly, it's going to be a faulty build.

[RSP]

If only Short Rests weren't an hour, then Warlocks could expect to actually cast more spells.

An hour is actually a long time to ask of a group that is out in their adventuring day, in presumably hostile territory. If you can find a place that's safe enough for an hour, there's no reason to think it wouldn't be safe for a Long Rest.

Otherwise? I think Warlocks should probably abandon the idea that they classify as "spellcasters" at all, but rather see Invocations as your primary focus and your spells as nothing more than a nice bonus.
If your Warlock build requires (leveled) spellcasting to function properly, it's going to be a faulty build.

Warlocks, in general, are fine, I find, so long as you’re playing it as an EBer. Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast are fantastic, and if that’s the combat role you’re playing for, it’s fun and satisfying, and you have room for fun invocations. Your spells end up being impactful, like the aforementioned Synaptic or Sickening, upcast Fly, Slow, whatever; and not a necessary tax for your playstyle. You can have the super familiar or the best Rituals (and a normal familiar).

It’s having to devote every resource to being okay at what you want to do, while still not having enough ability support to do it repeatedly, that’s a bummer.

But a well built blasting Warlock is fun, in my opinion.

[Inquisitor]

For me, I didn’t like having to be in the back with EB, after using my invocations and ASIs/Feats all on being effective in melee.

Shadow of Moil wasn’t that fulfilling as you’re essentially stuck doing that one thing, when able to do it. You’re still at most (assuming Conc holds) doing it twice a SR. Any more combats then that (or losing Conc) are you’re neither in melee, nor casting leveled spells.

So you can’t use great spells like Synaptic Static or Sickening Radiance, or utility spells like Fly or Invisibility; because it then means you’re sitting in the back pew-pewing rather than using any of your invocations or feats.

(And SoM only does so much in terms of damage mitigation, but that’s beside the point, here.)

Obviously, others might have different experiences, but putting all that work into making melee worthwhile (as you say, a feat is needed just to even validate the effectiveness of melee over EB, plus all the PoB invocations, as well as PoB itself), and then having to still stand back and still EB a lot just became a “why am I playing this character”?

It sounds like you enjoy it though, so maybe it’s just me. Hopefully that continues: I don’t mean to say the build can’t be fun; but it just didn’t work out that way to me once getting into T2.

Seems like needing feats just to be competitive goes way beyond just the Warlock though. Pretty much all martials are in the same boat there; a bladetrip with scaling at level 5 isn't far off a 2nd attack.
At least with ranged attacks, whether EB or arrows, you're in relative safety and can justify moderate damage; at it's core 5e doesn't reward going into melee enough.

[RSP]

Seems like needing feats just to be competitive goes way beyond just the Warlock though. Pretty much all martials are in the same boat there; a bladetrip with scaling at level 5 isn't far off a 2nd attack.
At least with ranged attacks, whether EB or arrows, you're in relative safety and can justify moderate damage; at it's core 5e doesn't reward going into melee enough.

Maybe, but Fighters and Rogues at least get extra ASIs to help with that. As a fighter or rogue it’s an extra bonus to add to your chosen style, and less a tax (since you get extra ones).

Warlock just feels like “why did I spend 4 invocations, a feat, my patron, my pact, and my spell slots on being equal to just getting Agonozing Blast?” Then add in that they aren’t durable enough to actually stay in melee so you’re still just standing in the back blasting away anyway…

Make two Warlocks: 1) a devoted melee gish, and 2) an EBer with AB. Then, at about level 8, start tracking how many times they’re each just spamming EB in combat.

That’s my experience anyway, though I’ve heard it’s not uncommon.

[Dork_Forge]

With the exception of a raging barbarian, yes. beyond Tier 1, AC 19 loses its shine rather quickly.

This is in line with what I was saying, my point was that AC 19 alone isn't enough to be a competitive frontliner. The Barbarian has a larger Hit Die and Rage backing that AC, other classes have features like Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, etc. Even a high AC will never be the only defense needed, and 19 isn't really high at any level.

Slow cast on the enemy helps (but if one is not using Tasha's expanded bard spell list, one has to wait until level 10 to get that from magical secrets).
of this discussion

This helps certainly, but that's like Grappling and Shoving to me. Slow isn't a defensive spell, it's a debuff you cast to help the party as a whole not boost your own defenses.

I think that a warforged PC Fighter with defensive fighting style and the warforged racial.origin bonus of +1 for AC gets you to 20 with chain mail and shield.

I'm not sure at this point if any WotC stuff just lets you free pick a feat at level 1, I know a lot give you a restricted list and background specific ones, but if they do:

A Thri-kreen Fighter with a shield, chain, Defense, and Dual Wielder gets to 20. I also just find that imagery hilarious. 19 is super easy to do, 20 a bit harder early on, but if momentary boosts and shorter durations count then it's much easier thanks to Shield, Shield of Faith, Gift of the Metallic Dragon etc.

[Keltest]

This conversation is starting to get a little surreal. If you want to just hit things with your sword, play a fighter. Pick eldritch knight if you want a little magic backup. That's what it's there for. If you pick warlock over EK it's because you want your big dumb eldritch blast and a couple of big spells, and anything else is supplementary to that, not the reverse. Complaining about EB being a big part of a hexblade's arsenal is missing the point. The sword is an option, not an entire replacement of the class.

[Gurgeh]

Yes, but this is fifth edition and the ability to be good at hitting things with a sword is apparently a god-given right for every character class under the sun.

[Keltest]

Yes, but this is fifth edition and the ability to be good at hitting things with a sword is apparently a god-given right for every character class under the sun.

For a certain value of "good" I guess.

[Hael]

For me, I didn’t like having to be in the back with EB, after using my invocations and ASIs/Feats all on being effective in melee.

Shadow of Moil wasn’t that fulfilling as you’re essentially stuck doing that one thing, when able to do it. You’re still at most (assuming Conc holds) doing it twice a SR. Any more combats then that (or losing Conc) are you’re neither in melee, nor casting leveled spells.

So you can’t use great spells like Synaptic Static or Sickening Radiance.

Hexblades are really meant to be martial gishes. Doing the cast spell and then hit things with a stick (or xbow) is part of the fantasy, and at least its a little more versatile than most martial decision trees. Now, of course its not as powerful as casting spells, but then if you want to do that, you play another class that does it better. Ultimately this is the problem with all gishes in the game, namely that even when your melee is better than most martials, its still better to be a caster instead.

Anyway, the powerful Hexblade builds that I played were mostly martial offensive juggernauts (amongst the highest damage in the game without going too heavy into multiclassing) but at the cost of some defense.

However, its not entirely clear that a pure martial is any better on the frontline. Hit die ceases to really be that important for survivability (the difference between a d8 and a d10 is basically rounding error) as you go up in levels. Even barbarians die super fast in the games I play once they get in melee range. I’d prefer having Shadow of Moil on, and at least being able to disengage for free, or have an emergency dimension door, or being untargetable by many spells and effects. The biggest problem for Hexblades are grapples and rather limited mobility.

Still if you play them like a tank, you will die. They’re really meant to be more of an offtank. You send them to solo down one BBEG or tough mob. Leave the swarms to the cleric or paladin.

[Telok]

Even barbarians die super fast in the games I play once they get in melee range.

That reminds me. We had a zealot barb who was quite discontent from... I guess around 11 to the tier 4 bit, whenever he got his "I don't care about hit points any more and i can't be knocked out of rage" ability.

It really did suck for him for 5 or so levels. Crap saves (even with the wis save prof feat) & lots of mental/fear effects kicking him out of rage, tons of stuff ignoring his bps resist (and more all the time as random extra damage types kept getting added to monsters), ac 20 didn't do jack in the face of all the brutes & auras & save-or-else stuff. The poor guy got feared/held/stun locked or ate grave dirt every other fight for four or so levels and was getting depressed. Then like two levels or such and suddenly he's an unstoppable death machine and we only care about throwing any heals at him to make sure he doesn't end rage without a hit point.

He still needed the casters to save him from a bunch of status effects and he couldn't do much of anything out of combat. But anything you could solve with hit point damage got done by just trapping the monsters near him and slapping four or more saving throw boosts/immunities on him. Not sure it really made up for the months of being suck & fail.

[Kurald Galain]

If only Short Rests weren't an hour, then Warlocks could expect to actually cast more spells.

An hour is actually a long time to ask of a group that is out in their adventuring day, in presumably hostile territory. If you can find a place that's safe enough for an hour, there's no reason to think it wouldn't be safe for a Long Rest.

Yes, that. The problem with warlocks is not whether their AC should be 19 or 20 or (gasp!) 21; the problem is that in some campaigns you can only rarely get a short rest. While I'm sure this depends on the DM a lot, in pretty much every 5E game I've played in, we pretty much never had "at least one but less than eight" hours of spare time.

[Schwann145]

Complaining about EB being a big part of a hexblade's arsenal is missing the point. The sword is an option, not an entire replacement of the class.

If the class requires EB to be taken, and yet it doesn't give it for free, then something somewhere is fundamentally wrong with the class.

[elyktsorb]

Maybe its more a semantics point than anything else. The subclasses mechanics mostly point in the right direction, they just only partially achieve the goal (you have reasons to want to be in melee, and you're certainly better there than a Stars druid would be, but you don't scale well and the value you add there drops steadily as levels go up) rather than being outright "bad". I think having Symbiotic Entity be slightly weaker but eventually activatable as a bonus action would have helped a lot.

As someone obsessed with Spore Druid, the main annoyance is Symbiotic Entity being an action as opposed to a bonus action. (or rather that you can't do it as both) Like, it's such a killer for anything melee related, heck, even spell related as well. Yeah if you already have one of the concentration spells up you don't have much of a reason to not spend your action reapplying temp hp if you need it. But still, Moon gets to choose between action and bonus action, so it's clearly not that much of an issue to make it so Symbiotic Entity works on a bonus action.

I also don't think it should be any weaker. Assuming you get to level 20, a Moon Druid can transform into something with 120ish hp every turn as either an action or a bonus action and still cast spells.

While a Spore Druid gets 80 temp hp and has to waste an action to do so. Which means if you don't have a concentration spell going to use your bonus action to do something, you have to waste a turn applying the temp hp.


Sure, spore gets the luxury of temp hp and casting spells at the same time for its entire career, but, if you're playing a spellcasting druid, how often are you in danger? I suppose I can't speak for Dreams, Stars or Wildfire (although I know wildfire has a spirit that can teleport them) as I've never played them, but Land and Shepard? Never in any excess danger for the most part, especially shepard with the go to strat of putting a bunch of buff summons between you and the enemy.

Then there's also the option of activating Symbiotic Entity before combat so you don't waste your first turn applying it. Which is where the 10 minute time limit comes into play. I don't know who thought 10 minutes was a good idea, I want them identified for light bullying. 10 minutes is a perfect amount of time for things to possibly go a bit off the rails and oops, the buff died before combat started. This is probably the most baffling part to me.

To that end, I do think SporeX/Totem Barbarian5 is pretty viable. Effectively doubles your temp hp for all damage types barring psychic, gives you a 2nd attack to add that d6 to, and there are plenty of options for getting a bonus action attack to bring that up to 3 even if your bonus action ends up being pretty busy without proper setup.

[Schwann145]

I don't know who thought 10 minutes was a good idea, I want them identified for light bullying.

Could not agree more! It's pretty ridiculous that the duration doesn't just match Wild Shape's duration. The ability is weaker than a combat Wild Shape, and provides no utility outside of temp HP when compared to a non-combat Wild Shape. Considering how few Wild Shapes you get, the 10 minute duration is even more of a joke.

[RSP]

Yes, that. The problem with warlocks is not whether their AC should be 19 or 20 or (gasp!) 21; the problem is that in some campaigns you can only rarely get a short rest. While I'm sure this depends on the DM a lot, in pretty much every 5E game I've played in, we pretty much never had "at least one but less than eight" hours of spare time.

It isn’t the case, though, that you can LR any time you have 8 hours:

“ A character can’t benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period, and a character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of the rest to gain its benefits.”

If you do one or two combats, then LR instead of SR, you’re done LR for that 24 hour period.

Now, you could rest for 24 hours I guess, but that’s on the DM for not then adjusting the dungeon or whatnot for your being there for that much time.

[Schwann145]

This isn’t the case though:

“ A character can’t benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period, and a character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of the rest to gain its benefits.”

If you do one or two combats, then LR instead of SR, you’re done LR for that 24 hour period.

Now, you could rest for 24 hours I guess, but that’s on the DM for not then adjusting the dungeon or whatnot for your being there for that much time.

They didn't mention anything at all about multiple Long Rests.

[RSP]

They didn't mention anything at all about multiple Long Rests.

No, but if you wake up from a LR, and start the adventuring day, you need to wait 24 hours before having another LR, no?

If the DM just allows unlimited downtime to avoid this, then yes, it’ll be a standard 1 combat work day.

But I don’t think that’s the “standard” idea from RAW, that PCs should just take LRs whenever they decide to.

[Kurald Galain]

Yes, that. The problem with warlocks is not whether their AC should be 19 or 20 or (gasp!) 21; the problem is that in some campaigns you can only rarely get a short rest. While I'm sure this depends on the DM a lot, in pretty much every 5E game I've played in, we pretty much never had "at least one but less than eight" hours of spare time.

This isn’t the case though:

Yes, it is absolutely the case that, as I wrote, in pretty much every 5E game I've played in, we pretty much never had "at least one but less than eight" hours of spare time.

What, you were personally present in all my games now, so you can claim this was not the case? How does that even make sense?

[RSP]

Hexblades are really meant to be martial gishes…Ultimately this is the problem with all gishes in the game, namely that even when your melee is better than most martials, its still better to be a caster instead.

Anyway, the powerful Hexblade builds that I played were mostly martial offensive juggernauts (amongst the highest damage in the game without going too heavy into multiclassing) but at the cost of some defense.

Hexblade’s don’t lose out on “total offense”, or the ability to deal damage in total: that’s why I refer to them as “glass canons”, the offensive output is there.

The issue is they made a “gish” type Patron that, instead of being like 70% martial offense and 70% defense, they went 100%+ offense, and 0% defense.

Hexblade’s have plenty of ways to produce damage without really having a way to mitigate incoming damage, so they have issues with staying power once getting into T2, when your frontline bad guys’ output starts adding up.

Still if you play them like a tank, you will die. They’re really meant to be more of an offtank. You send them to solo down one BBEG or tough mob. Leave the swarms to the cleric or paladin.

Right: they can’t stay on the frontline, which is an issue for a build that needs to dedicate everything just to being in melee, just to make it worthwhile to do melee instead of EB+AB.

So if the answer is “don’t do melee and save your spell slots for BBEG encounters (because you need them to stay in melee with the BBEG), and just spend all day EBing from the back lines; until you face the BBEG” then you’re not actually playing your gish build, or using any of the resources you put into being melee capable, the vast majority of your 5e playtime; which is rather disappointing.

Which is why I said Hexblade’s meant to be in melee are a “build that should have been good, but wasn’t.”

Yes, it is absolutely the case that, as I wrote, in pretty much every 5E game I've played in, we pretty much never had "at least one but less than eight" hours of spare time.

What, you were personally present in all my games now, so you can claim this was not the case? How does that even make sense?

Wasn’t referring to your playing experience not being the case: was referring to the ability to take a LR any time you have 8 hours available.

Since it appears to be a touchy point, I’ve edited my post to clarify that.

But to the real point: if your DM(s) allow LR any time you want, that will, indeed, create differences in expectations of how PCs function.

The “5 minute workday” isn’t “bad” or “wrong”, per se, but it will mean certain builds are less effective; while others are much more so.

But that’s why the rule I posted is in place, because the game doesn’t expect LRs after every combat.

[Kurald Galain]

But that’s why the rule I posted is in place, because the game doesn’t expect LRs after every combat.

Sure, but the problem is more the opposite scenario.

It's not that all classes want to wait for eight hours after each combat, and the warlock doesn't have to.
The problem is that the warlock wants to wait for one hour after each combat, and the other classes don't have to.

Most classes can easily go several combats before needing a long rest; and have no particular incentive or reason to sit still for an hour after combat. Warlock is the big exception here.

[Keltest]

Sure, but the problem is more the opposite scenario.

It's not that all classes want to wait for eight hours after each combat, and the warlock doesn't have to.
The problem is that the warlock wants to wait for one hour after each combat, and the other classes don't have to.

Most classes can easily go several combats before needing a long rest; and have no particular incentive or reason to sit still for an hour after combat. Warlock is the big exception here.

Warlocks, fighters, barbarians (to spend hit dice), monks, wizards (to use arcane recovery). Short rest characters arent the most common type, but theyre hardly rare either.

[Slipjig]

The issue with the build is it’s selling point is “you’re able to fight in melee and be a caster” while it just locks you into a subpar playstyle as a one trick pony; and it’s not even a good trick.

This isn’t an example of the build working, as you suggest; but rather, is another example of why the build doesn’t work as advertised.

I would argue this actually represents success from a game-design standpoint. It's fine if a build can switch-hit being a blasty caster and a melee front-liner. But that character should NOT be as good at melee as the dedicated melee specialist, or as blast-y as the dedicated blaster specialist.

I understand there are characters that break this rule (bladesingers being example #1), but I consider those bad game design. I like flexible characters, but that flexibility needs to have a cost.

[RSP]

I would argue this actually represents success from a game-design standpoint. It's fine if a build can switch-hit being a blasty caster and a melee front-liner. But that character should NOT be as good at melee as the dedicated melee specialist, or as blast-y as the dedicated blaster specialist.

I understand there are characters that break this rule (bladesingers being example #1), but I consider those bad game design. I like flexible characters, but that flexibility needs to have a cost.

It’s not about being as good at melee. Hexblade Bladelocks aren’t as good at melee as Fighters. It’s that Hexblade Bladelocks are all offense and no defense.

The “design” issue is that the Hexblade is supposed to be a gish option, but to actually be in melee, they have to go all in on everything, using feats, invocations, pact option and spells, and still have to leave melee repeatedly (either willingly or by being knocked to 0).

The Bladesinger has to devote resources to being in melee successfully, which mitigates its ability to cast. But it has defensive abilities that allow you to choose to do so. They won’t be as good in melee as a Fighter, or as good doing spells as another Wizard, but they can do both.

Hexblade has to sacrifice everything else, including their casting, just to be subpar at melee.

[Kurald Galain]

Warlocks, fighters, barbarians (to spend hit dice), monks, wizards (to use arcane recovery). Short rest characters arent the most common type, but theyre hardly rare either.

Come now, a wizard who can use Arcane Recovery once per day is not a "short rest character".

I'll grant that fighters with superiority dice are another character that wants lots of short rests; but rather than propping up the warlock, this means that nobody (at least in my area) plays this kind of fighter, either. Which is too bad because I find it a really fun mechanic.

So the clear difference here is that other characters can benefit from a short rest, whereas warlocks (and sup.dice fighters) require frequent short rests to function effectively.

[Keltest]

Come now, a wizard who can use Arcane Recovery once per day is not a "short rest character".

I'll grant that fighters with superiority dice are another character that wants lots of short rests; but rather than propping up the warlock, this means that nobody (at least in my area) plays this kind of fighter, either. Which is too bad because I find it a really fun mechanic.

So the clear difference here is that other characters can benefit from a short rest, whereas warlocks (and sup.dice fighters) require frequent short rests to function effectively.

Fighters get Action Surge and Second Wind back on short rests too. Monks get Ki points, which is, you know, almost all their resources. And it seems unlikely to me that your clerics/druids want to spend all their spell slots healing the Barbarian all the time.

Maybe you play at a table where long rests are plentiful and supplant the need for a short rest, but that is a table issue, not an issue with the warlock.

[Theodoxus]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. What difference does it make to players if the Warlock says "I'd like to take a SR, if possible." The DM decides if its reasonable, says yes or no, if yes, players take a minute to roll HD if they want and play goes on. No one is asking to take an actual hour long break in real time...