What build should have been good, but wasn't?

[Blatant Beast]

I saaw ye olde 'Hit Die size doesn't matter it's a rounding error' so I'm contractually obligated to add HD does matter in actual gameplay. Hit points matter and are the most thorough defense against death.

Hit points matter, but the approximately 22 extra hit points that a 20th level character with a d10 hit die has over a PC with 20 levels in the Warlock class is ameliorated with a single cast of Armor of Agathys.

Celestial Warlocks or the Ravenloft Undead Warlock both also have subclass features that provide Temporary Hit Points.

Perhaps, you need a new contract.

[J-H]

This thread went from "which subclasses are good on paper and bad in practice" to "why hexblades suck/don't suck". Give it a rest, it's ok to have difference experiences of the same product.

To answer OP I am going to say Samurai Fighter.

Samurai gives you a big nova and risible tHP, and then you're basically a Champion with worse crit range.

I've run one as an NPC, and had one in a game I DM'd, but both were high level. The 18th level feature is worth 4-9 extra attacks on going to 0, or it can be used for something clutch... in my game it was "Oh, we just ate 16 fireballs and most of the party is dead. I'm going to activate my Helm of Teleportation right now and get us out of here." (they got arrogant and let a big group of enemies surround them and advance all at once).

I like the face-friendly features, which are substantially more useful than the champion subclass features, and are one of the relatively few ways to get up to 4 save proficiencies.

[Dork_Forge]

Hit points matter, but the approximately 22 extra hit points that a 20th level character with a d10 hit die has over a PC with 20 levels in the Warlock class is ameliorated with a single cast of Armor of Agathys.

Celestial Warlocks or the Ravenloft Undead Warlock both also have subclass features that provide Temporary Hit Points.

Perhaps, you need a new contract.

Saying the difference in HD size doesn't matter because you can cover it with a resource is not a convincing argument. I mean, you literally just said (paraphrasing ofc) "the difference doesn't matter because a 20th level Warlock can spend one of their 4 slots to make up the difference." But here's some food for thought:

- Temp HP is not HP. It doesn't matter when your HP max gets reduced by Undead, when you calculate massive damage death (as much), and it doesn't help you when you get smacked by a spell that deals with HP totals. Like the Power Word spells, but also stuff like Sleep and Color Spray.

- In direct comparisons, the lower HD PC is starting off from a weaker place that then needs to be patched with something else or just live with the fact that they're closer to death at any given time. So yes the Warlock can cast Armor of Agathys, but the Fighter didn't have to use or invest anything, the Warlock in your example is just catching up.

- Larger HD creatures can also benefit from that stuff too! You brought up the Celestial Warlock's 10th level feature, that's a party buff. The D10 or D12 class gets that too on top of their already larger HP max total.

- Folks often go to the big picture level 20 difference, but lower level is the most played D&D and every HP can be the difference between staying up or going down, or going down and dying from massive damage.

- In actual table play, HD size difference will often work together with other factors. A martial is traditionally more likely (and this is confirmed by my experience) to have a higher Con than other classes. Suddenly that level+1 becomes (2xlevel)+1.

Fun anecdote time:

1) One of my tables consists of a straight Paladin, a Barbarian/Rogue, and a Bard/Warlock/Sorcerer with a couple Sidekicks. One of the big things they had to deal with in prep when they fought a Lich was PWK, the Bard and caster sidekick were under 100HP and had been shut down by it in previous skirmishes with the villain. So in prep for that the Paladin upcast Aid to give them a chance at immunity to it (at the start of combat at least). That HP difference meant that the Paladin had to burn a precious 3rd level slot that could have been a big smite against an undead or a Revivify.

2) At another (lower level) table, a Paladin decided to MC into Sorcerer, something he ran into as the party leveled up was that he simply didn't have the staying power to face tank with the Fighter like he used to. Repeated levels of comparatively losing 2HP had left a sizeable dent and he had to learn to adapt his playstyle to deal with it. iirc he started to really feel and notice the difference with his second Sorc level.

[Frogreaver]

On Hexblades
Medium Armor, Shields and d8 hp is not adequate for a front liner - but it's a good start.

Did someone say Cleric?
Those things aren't enough for a Cleric to be a front liner either. Clerics can heal for a ton of hp if needed. Clerics also get quite a few good damage spells that allow them to do damage while taking the dodge action if needed.

All the Dials
That said, there are lots of ways for the hexblade to increase their survivability (fiendish vigor is amazing at this for most of T1 and T2), there are alot of ways for the party to increase the hexblades survivability (control spells or more front liners really help here), there are alot of ways for the DM to as well (who monsters target and when can really change things), and finally there's attrition based survivability difficulty levels and encounter level survivability difficulty levels.

Changing any of these dials can have a significant effect on the perceived survivability of the hexblade (or really any front liner).

Other Observations
There's very few PC's that are a potent force on the battlefield while being capable of being the only front liner in a game where front liners are primarily targeted regardless of their other combat contributions.

Conclusion
I believe all the accounts, but it would be more interesting to me to hear about the games hexblades failed or succeeded in than to just hear they failed or succeeded.

[Schwann145]

I disagree. The hexblade is not a gish because the warlock is not a full caster, or even a half caster. It can bridge the gap between the caster and melee parts really well, but doesn't bring the magic to be a gish on its own.

Ah, but it is a full caster. The problem is that the spells it so heavily relies on (X/day Invocations and Cantrips) do practically nothing to support it's gish-subclass option.
So it can't be a half-caster or a melee by default - it's definitely a full caster... with almost no access to leveled spells.

[Keltest]

Ah, but it is a full caster. The problem is that the spells it so heavily relies on (X/day Invocations and Cantrips) do practically nothing to support it's gish-subclass option.
So it can't be a half-caster or a melee by default - it's definitely a full caster... with almost no access to leveled spells.

If it doesn't have access then by definition it can't be a full caster.

[Asmotherion]

Sorcerer 20.

Simple right? I just needed a Sorcerer that had a good blasting cantrip, with some synergy to enhance that cantrip, like, say, a nice +Charisma mod to damage. Sounds familiar?

I know you can dip Warlock for it. However, it would have been better to get a Sorcerer that does the same stuff, and maybe a 3.5 Warlock Eldritch Blast, that has rider effects on it and that deals untyped/force sneak-attack-like damage. It should also not have been a Cantrip, but a class ability instead, IMO.

Also, Warlock 20. Warlocks are infamously good as a dip class, but very few people like to play Warlock 20. Again, my solution to that is to copy 3.5 mechanics: Give Warlocks At-Will uses of Spells as Invocations (they kinda did that, but for very few spells IMO), and ditch the actual spellcasting altogether. Also, see above my rant about Eldritch Blast.

In my opinion, multiclassing should have been optimal for very specific, niche things, and not a general optimisation technique.

Now, on actual class combinations:

Fighter-Barbarian gives you very few things. It could have been a cool combination though.

Druid-Ranger also sounds cooler than it actually is.

I see no mechanical reason to play a Cleric-Paladin, who, concept wise, sounds like a cool character.


Now, other than classes, I dislike how the current Planar Binding functions. One of my favorite character concepts in 3.5 was a Sorcerer who "prepares" by planar binding the right entity for the right encounter. RP was lots of fun, and was a valid workaround to the otherwise limiting spells-known of the Sorcerer. Now, it comes with a price tag, which to me, reads as "useless until you gain high level spell slots. Unless your party somehow has limitless funds, the spell starts being good by the time you unlock 7th level spell slots, aka Level 14, which is usually near, or post campaign end for most (published, 3rd party included) campaigns. I like playing a Conjurer that actually gets to Conjure entities to serve him, and getting rid of the Summon Monster line of spells, totally nullifies this playstyle.

Finally, one more cool thing I could do in 3.5 that I can't do in 5e is to use the monster manual as my spellbook. I'm obviously talking about Polymorph, which used to be much less limiting in it's applicable forms than "animals only". So, a Polymorph Themed Sorcerer/Wizard/Whaterver-Else-Gets-Polymorph Build is basically a Druid in this edition. Pass.

If this rant feels to you as a "I miss 3.5" it's A) partially because it's true; I'll pick a 3.5/pathfinder game over a 5e game, any time. But mostly B) that I feel 5e failed so bad at translating and simplifying old but cool mechanics in it. I want to like 5e or whatever comes next. I just feel it's sacrificing many cool things I like in the game, for the sake of balance, and balance should really not be more important than coolness. That's all.

TL;DR version:

-You shouldn't have to Multiclass to optimise your character. Characters should be optimizable without dips/multiclass.
-Cool class combos that don't function well with the game mechanics.
-Old guy has nostalgia rant about how 5e should be more like 3.5.

That's more or less what I have to say. I'll leave you with that, hopefully persuading some of you to join me to the dark side in switching to 3.5/Pathfinder. The rest of you, have a nice day.

[Blatant Beast]

Saying the difference in HD size doesn't matter because you can cover it with a resource is not a convincing argument.

I’m sorry, I am not trying to make this personal, but the post I am quoting of yours I find quite lacking.

Of course a D10 class can have more HP than a D8 class…that is proof of nothing of importance.

The Aid spell, THP, even the lowly Blade Ward Cantrip, are effective ways for D8 HD classes to bridge the hit point chasm and reach parity to the d10 average HP baseline.

Are you contending D8 classes just die at higher tiers? Seems like you are picking nits

[RSP]

[B]
All the Dials
That said, there are lots of ways for the hexblade to increase their survivability (fiendish vigor is amazing at this for most of T1 and T2), there are alot of ways for the party to increase the hexblades survivability (control spells or more front liners really help here), there are alot of ways for the DM to as well (who monsters target and when can really change things), and finally there's attrition based survivability difficulty levels and encounter level survivability difficulty levels.

Changing any of these dials can have a significant effect on the perceived survivability of the hexblade (or really any front liner).

One thing about FV (and the Field ability): it adds tHP, which doesn’t play nice with AoA. So those don’t really work together, it’s pick one or the other. AoA generally is the better of the two, but takes the spell slot away. While FV uses an invocation, which the melee Hexblade is already starved for.

It’s not that in a vacuum FV is bad, it’s just another example of how Hexblade’s abilities don’t work nicely (like Shadow Blade, which would be an awesome weapon for a Hexblade, if it worked with ANY of their melee abilities: Hex Warrior, Thirsting Blade. Or getting access to Shield, except the better you get, level wise, the worse an option Shield is: if you’re using a slot on Shield at Warlock 5+, you’re doing something wrong)

[Frogreaver]

One thing about FV (and the Field ability): it adds tHP, which doesnÂ’t play nice with AoA. So those donÂ’t really work together, itÂ’s pick one or the other. AoA generally is the better of the two, but takes the spell slot away. While FV uses an invocation, which the melee Hexblade is already starved for.

ItÂ’s not that in a vacuum FV is bad, itÂ’s just another example of how HexbladeÂ’s abilities donÂ’t work nicely (like Shadow Blade, which would be an awesome weapon for a Hexblade, if it worked with ANY of their melee abilities: Hex Warrior, Thirsting Blade. Or getting access to Shield, except the better you get, level wise, the worse an option Shield is: if youÂ’re using a slot on Shield at Warlock 5+, youÂ’re doing something wrong)

I don't agree with the conclusion but I agree with the complaint. Many of the things that would be cool if they worked together and/or worked as well as they do for other classes don't do so for the hexblade. Shield is mostly a waste, Fiendish Vigor doesn't play well with Armor of Agathy's, being in melee doesn't play well with wanting to use a big concentration spell, shadow blade just fails to work with the blade pact features, etc.

I'm not a fan of Armor of Agathy's anyways. The hour long duration, action to cast and spell slot competition make it hard to use. I mean as an emergency my hp is really low this encounter and want to live it can be great, but it's not something I'd look to precast or cast early in a combat outside such a situation.

For me, my invocations as a hexblade would be something like
Level 2: Fiendish Vigor + Eldritch Mind (hex is really solid at this level)
Level 3-4: Trade Eldritch Mind for Improved Pact Weapon (shatter is the go to spell for level 3-4, will occasionally use others but shatter is hard to beat)
Level 5-6: Trade out Improved Pact Weapon for Thirsting Blade (probably have a magic weapon by now) and pick back up Eldritch Mind (too many good concentration spells at level 5+)

The key to spells is that control/summoning spells all make melee easier and so those would be my focus from here on. Surprisingly, Shadow Hound level 6 hexblade feature can help here as well by providing another body on the battlefield.

The problem fox hexblade isn't really that hexblade melee is bad if you build appropriately, it's mostly 2 things that detract perception from it. #1 is that hexblade EB is still better. Late game with alot of melee feats hexblade melee starts looking better, but for most of the game EB just works, is ranged etc. - even for a hexblade. #2 is that the spells people want to cast with a melee hexblade just aren't the ones that are the most effective.

[RSP]

I'm not a fan of Armor of Agathy's anyways. The hour long duration, action to cast and spell slot competition make it hard to use.

Right. AoA is much better with damage mitigation, like with CS Sorc. Another example of stuff not working great with Hexblade.

For me, my invocations as a hexblade would be something like
Level 2: Fiendish Vigor + Eldritch Mind (hex is really solid at this level)
Level 3-4: Trade Eldritch Mind for Improved Pact Weapon (shatter is the go to spell for level 3-4, will occasionally use others but shatter is hard to beat)
Level 5-6: Trade out Improved Pact Weapon for Thirsting Blade (probably have a magic weapon by now) and pick back up Eldritch Mind (too many good concentration spells at level 5+)

Without IPW are you grabbing Warcaster to use a shield? Seems redundant with EM. EM isn’t enough to maintain Conc while in melee.

The problem fox hexblade isn't really that hexblade melee is bad if you build appropriately, it's mostly 2 things that detract perception from it. #1 is that hexblade EB is still better. Late game with alot of melee feats hexblade melee starts looking better, but for most of the game EB just works, is ranged etc. - even for a hexblade. #2 is that the spells people want to cast with a melee hexblade just aren't the ones that are the most effective.

Having to select every option for melee, just to be better at range is an issue, and agree the melee spells don’t work well.

But Advantage on Conc Saves isn’t enough without Con Save Proficiency, you’ll drop your Conc being in melee, wasting the spell and perhaps turning your summons against you.

As you get into T2, around 8-ish, the damage starts being a bigger issue (at least that’s about when I started noticing it.

[Sception]

Spores Druid is hands down my vote for most frustrating design in 5e. It wants so badly to be a melee druid alternative to Moon but every one of its features fights against you at that objective.

The big problem with spore druid is a conceptual one. Why is the guy based on molds and fungus supposed to be a tanky melee fighter in the first place? It's not hard to break a mushroom or toadstool, and where fungus is dangerous at all it's through poison and infection. "Spores" are meant to drift through the wind to spread the fungus at range. Spores druid is so obviously a back line status ailment concept, nothing about it says tanky front line fighter, no wonder the devs could pull together enough effective & thematic subclass features to make it work. From the very first ideas spores druid was trying to force a square peg through a round hole. Easily my least favorite subclass for wasting a good concept.

[Psyren]

The big problem with spore druid is a conceptual one. Why is the guy based on molds and fungus supposed to be a tanky melee fighter in the first place? It's not hard to break a mushroom or toadstool, and where fungus is dangerous at all it's through poison and infection. "Spores" are meant to drift through the wind to spread the fungus at range. Spores druid is so obviously a back line status ailment concept, nothing about it says tanky front line fighter, no wonder the devs could pull together enough effective & thematic subclass features to make it work. From the very first ideas spores druid was trying to force a square peg through a round hole. Easily my least favorite subclass for wasting a good concept.

I actually think it could and should work very well as a frontline concept. The idea is that the fungi and other "death magic" aspects modify your biology to make you very sturdy; this is the druid that can get shot in the eye with an arrow and simply pluck it out, which would be represented mechanically by the pile of temp HP they get.

Where they messed up is by wanting you to land multiple hits to get the most benefit. The damage boost should have been balanced around being 1/round instead - either a single (scaling) burst of damage, or potentially even a damage over time that simulates a virulent disease or infection. Ideally, it should also leech HP for the spore druid to further push the pathogenic/parasitic fantasy.

[Amnestic]

In my opinion, multiclassing should have been optimal for very specific, niche things, and not a general optimisation technique.

Class capstones vary so utterly in power it's kinda ridiculous. Paladins get a subclass specific cool button to smash, clerics get to guarantee their Divine Inspiration, artificer gets a passive +6 to all saves, barbarians get unlimited rages and +4 str/con, bards get...one BI dice, if they roll initiative and didn't have any left.

Sorcerer and Warlock are definitely on the lower end of impressive for capstones.

[Hal]

My contribution to this would be War Mage.

It has some nice sub-class features, and you're still a wizard, so you're going to be solid either way. But I really wish it had included getting armor/shield proficiency.

More critically, the 6th level feature, Power Surge, is underwhelming. It centers around giving you a bonus for counterspelling/dispelling magic; if you're not doing a lot of that, it's just a 1x/SR damage boost, and not a great one for its rarity. It also competes with Arcane Deflection for your reaction. It's not bad, per se, but it could have been a lot better.

[diplomancer]

Class capstones vary so utterly in power it's kinda ridiculous. Paladins get a subclass specific cool button to smash, clerics get to guarantee their Divine Inspiration, artificer gets a passive +6 to all saves, barbarians get unlimited rages and +4 str/con, bards get...one BI dice, if they roll initiative and didn't have any left.

Sorcerer and Warlock are definitely on the lower end of impressive for capstones.

Sorcerer 20 is probably the most powerful capstone in the game. It's so powerful, in fact, that most DMs would not allow the Sorcerer to take full advantage of it. A Sorcerer 20 is a Coffeelock. Of course, I'd imagine that most people who HAVE played a 20th level character have played it as a one-shot, not as a part of an ongoing campaign, in which case the Sorcerer capstone becomes a lot less powerful.

Warlock 20 is ok. It's not the best capstone, it's not the worst either, solidly middle-of-the-road.

[Theodoxus]

I actually think it could and should work very well as a frontline concept. The idea is that the fungi and other "death magic" aspects modify your biology to make you very sturdy; this is the druid that can get shot in the eye with an arrow and simply pluck it out, which would be represented mechanically by the pile of temp HP they get.

Where they messed up is by wanting you to land multiple hits to get the most benefit. The damage boost should have been balanced around being 1/round instead - either a single (scaling) burst of damage, or potentially even a damage over time that simulates a virulent disease or infection. Ideally, it should also leech HP for the spore druid to further push the pathogenic/parasitic fantasy.

That would be truly epic. Although such a massive power upgrade over base druid that it would probably become top pick. Curbing the power down to reasonable would nerf the concept, or make it so underwhelming that it's nigh useless to use.

That said however, if one were to trek down that rabbit hole for a bit, I could see something like a Spore Druid granting an ally the spore cloud that worked a bit like nanites, regenerating HP/tHP on a round by round basis; perhaps having a secondary affect that lashes out when struck. Have it be a pool, something like 5 per level, or even 1d6 per level but rolled when used - both healing and damage draw down from that pool, and once exhausted, needs to be reapplied by the druid.

The design space is definitely ripe for expanding into, just need to be careful how it's done.

[Amnestic]

Sorcerer 20 is probably the most powerful capstone in the game. It's so powerful, in fact, that most DMs would not allow the Sorcerer to take full advantage of it. A Sorcerer 20 is a Coffeelock.

Any DM that allows coffeelock is frankly doing themselves a disservice in the first place. It's a stupid "build", based upon a stupid oversight in the writing that didn't factor in multiclassing, and using a way of play that is antithetical to the narrative of the universe.

Scrap that and what do you have? An extra 8 sorcery points per day, on average? So an extra 5th level slot plus a cheap metamagic?

[Keltest]

Any DM that allows coffeelock is frankly doing themselves a disservice in the first place. It's a stupid "build", based upon a stupid oversight in the writing that didn't factor in multiclassing, and using a way of play that is antithetical to the narrative of the universe.

Scrap that and what do you have? An extra 8 sorcery points per day, on average? So an extra 5th level slot plus a cheap metamagic?

Dont coffeelocks die of exhaustion after like a week anyway due to actively avoiding a long rest?

[Sorinth]

The big problem with spore druid is a conceptual one. Why is the guy based on molds and fungus supposed to be a tanky melee fighter in the first place? It's not hard to break a mushroom or toadstool, and where fungus is dangerous at all it's through poison and infection. "Spores" are meant to drift through the wind to spread the fungus at range. Spores druid is so obviously a back line status ailment concept, nothing about it says tanky front line fighter, no wonder the devs could pull together enough effective & thematic subclass features to make it work. From the very first ideas spores druid was trying to force a square peg through a round hole. Easily my least favorite subclass for wasting a good concept.

Fungus/mold is very hard to get rid without a total replacement, so that sturdiness of sticking around when they should have died should be part of a spore druid, admittedly that works for both a front line and back line. But being tanky is definitely part of the concept. Perhaps it could have been done better via something like a Zombie's Undead fortitude but temp HP work as well.

Poison/Disease from nature is also more heavily melee then it is ranged, and when it's ranged it's usually short range. It's way more common for things like diseases to spread via touch/ingest then by air, and even when it's in the air it's usually very short range. So it makes sense that you would either be front or middle line over the backline.

[Amnestic]

Dont coffeelocks die of exhaustion after like a week anyway due to actively avoiding a long rest?

There's ways around it that I'm sure people who are in favour of the build could detail, but I'm not much interested in all the tricksy ways it can be done. I hold that the very idea of it is so fundamentally at odds with the rest of the design and intent of 5e it should be consigned to only the most hypothetical of discussions and ignored utterly whenever any talk of actual play is involved.

[RSP]

Any DM that allows coffeelock is frankly doing themselves a disservice in the first place. It's a stupid "build", based upon a stupid oversight in the writing that didn't factor in multiclassing, and using a way of play that is antithetical to the narrative of the universe.

Scrap that and what do you have? An extra 8 sorcery points per day, on average? So an extra 5th level slot plus a cheap metamagic?

I believe the thinking is play an Elf so your LR is 4 hours. So you get 4 SRs after your LR, while waiting for everyone else to LR. Then while the Wizard is doing his daily ritual spells, get another SR in. That’s two 5ths and a 4th to start your day.

Then you get into So-and-so is talking to the guy about the McGuffin. That convo takes an hour (4 more Sorc Points). Then we’re waiting for three hours to meet up with the other guy (12 more points). Then we go attack the castle 2 hours later (8 more points).

As there’s no limit to SR, it’s open for repeatedly getting used when there isn’t anything preventing it. Even if the adventuring day is 8 hours, with 4 hours LR, that leaves 12 hours (48 Sorc Points) of potential SR time for the Sorc.

[KorvinStarmast]

Seems like you are picking nits

Welcome to the internet.

I hold that the very idea of it is so fundamentally at odds with the rest of the design and intent of 5e it should be consigned to only the most hypothetical of discussions and ignored utterly whenever any talk of actual play is involved.

It is cheese. I am also not a fan of the invocation as a general principle. I suspect that one of the devs is a huge Meg Ryan fan, or a huge Tom Hanks fan, and that's how it got into the game.
Why do I think that? If you take the invocation, and you are on the dev team

Spoiler: Yes, I went there

Show

you are Sleepless in Seattle

[RSP]

It is cheese.

In so far as the level 20 Sorc ability goes (so not specifically commenting on Coffeelocks), I disagree that it’s “cheese”.

It’s literally just using the ability the way it was designed.

Now they could very well have chosen a better way to enact the ability, if their goal was just having an extra 4-12 Sorc Points throughout the day (like just making it Barbarian-esque: “your Sorcerer Point max increases to 30”). But there’s a difference between using the ability the game gave you, in the ways the game intends; and finding loopholes in multiclass combos with specific niche abilities.

[KorvinStarmast]

In so far as the level 20 Sorc ability goes (so not specifically commenting on Coffeelocks), I disagree that it’s “cheese”.

To me, coffee lock relies on a particular warlock invocation. (That's the cheese I refer to)>
The level 20 Sorc ability seems fine to me.

[Psyren]

Dont coffeelocks die of exhaustion after like a week anyway due to actively avoiding a long rest?

Aspect of the Moon invocation

[MoiMagnus]

Dont coffeelocks die of exhaustion after like a week anyway due to actively avoiding a long rest?

Coffeelocks dates from before Xanathar's (which adds a rule where skipping a long rest means you do a Con check and get exhausted if you failed), where peoples argued that by RAW, doing successive shorts rest should be enough to avoid any kind of exhaustion.

[All of that mixed with the common misunderstanding about what coffee does: you can't compensate for bad sleep with coffee without some serious health issues down the line.]

[tokek]

Sorcerer 20 is probably the most powerful capstone in the game. It's so powerful, in fact, that most DMs would not allow the Sorcerer to take full advantage of it. A Sorcerer 20 is a Coffeelock. Of course, I'd imagine that most people who HAVE played a 20th level character have played it as a one-shot, not as a part of an ongoing campaign, in which case the Sorcerer capstone becomes a lot less powerful.

Really? It only regains lost SP, there is no obvious way to stack that up.

At 20th level, you regain 4 expended sorcery points whenever you finish a short rest.

I'm totally not seeing why that is so amazing on what is by definition a single-classed character so very few shenanigans are possible.

[Theodoxus]

Convert all your SP into slots, and never take a long rest. That's the cheese. I don't really think it's all that bad, tbh, but some folks get their panties in a twist thinking about nigh unlimited MMs or something... (like, the Wizard was doing that 3 levels ago /shrug)

[Spo]

On the other side, a shepherd druid worked too well in tier 2. Every fight was either a cakewalk or a TPK depending if she had a level 3+ spell slot left. The other PCs barely mattered.

I stopped playing my shepherd druid for this very reason around tier 3/4 play. I felt guilty about making every fight boring for the others players and solving practically every problem with the number of tools I was given.