Questions about a class

[Mr.PC0X]

This is the third forum I've asked so I REALLY hope I can find an answer here.

NIGHTFELL: Whether you have experienced the setting or not, it introduced three new player classes. Of which I fell in love with the Medium and the "Master of Tradition". HOWEVER, I'm not a fan of classes without a decent number of options, so I started designinging new sublcasses for both.

My longterm goal is to port both the Medium and the "Master of Tradition" (whose name I hate with a fiery passion) into my own homebrew setting, with some minor tweaks of course. But herein lies the problem... I've never actually played the Master of Tradition. My player group is small and despite my willignness to try new things and new settings many of the other players find less enjoyment in doing anything beyond generic fantasy murderhoboing.

My concern is that the more I look at the class, the more narrowly I built I see it. I'm worried the class will be overshadowed by other base classes in 5e. I want to expand on the class but I feel porting over a class that can't pull it's own weight might make it dead on arrival. So I would like to ask other seasoned veterans of D&D, is it good?

You don't need to have a Nightfell setting corebook, I offer the class's SRD here https://www.5esrd.com/database/class...-of-tradition/

My attempt to ask D&D Beyond has been soundly ignored, my attempt to ask r/Nightfell has fallen on deaf ears (I'm not sure a subreddit with less than 200 users is really all that active), so I ask you all.

[kingcheesepants]

It's got interesting flavor but there are no mechanics in this class that make it even close to worthwhile. It has a d6 hit die, light armor and no martial weapon proficiency so it definitely doesn't belong on the front lines. But it also doesn't have spellcasting except for ritual spells. And its special ability is limited use, requires a check and only gives a small one turn damage bonus. The guy does get expertise which is always nice, but only 3 skills from a limited list, which is fewer than a rouge or bard get.

A knowledge cleric, mastermind rouge, a wizard with expertise somehow (via a feat or a class dip), a pact of the tome warlock, or any bard who doesn't dump intelligence, can give you the same flavor while having significantly stronger mechanics in every area.

You'd have to add a lot to this class to make it even close to worthwhile because right now the only way I can see this being used in a game is by making this an NPC sidekick class.

[Dalinar]

First I've heard of this setting, let alone this homebrew class. On a read, it doesn't seem particularly great, no.

-d6 hit die and light armor, so pretty weak on the survivability end

-Requires both INT 13 and WIS 13 to multiclass, despite seemingly not having any abilities that scale with INT (and only one with WIS).

-Three proficiencies that are mostly in knowledge-related checks, plus an expertise in the same list with more at later levels (honestly this isn't too bad a list in my experience, but I know some tables complain those skills are useless outside Perception).

-Detect Weakness would be pretty good if it were at will and a bonus action, but it seems remarkably undertuned in this form (and also oddly worded). If you spend your entire action to apply this to someone and succeed, you've increased the next damage they take by a d4. Yay. The one-successful-use-per-short-rest is practically unneeded because I don't know when I would ever use this. The scaling die helps a little, but it's still literally less damage than a weapon attack, and the oddity of scaling against the target's CR is icing on the cake (so is this just useless versus CR20+?)

-Subclasses don't seem to be on this wiki, so I can't judge those.

-A fairly decent number of rituals from any list sounds great, but to my knowledge the vast majority of good rituals are on the Wizard list. You could just be a wizard. And I know the wizard has a reputation for being one of the stronger 5e classes, but even still, the gap between "full blown wizard" and "a few rituals and skill proficiencies and a bad version of Favored Foe/Hex and also you need a lot of WIS" is vast. We also don't know what your spellcasting modifier is for those rituals, not that I'm sure how much that matters with respect to rituals, but it seems like an oversight.

-Tales of Monsters and Magic gives you Soul Points. I don't know what that is. That said, I doubt they are so valuable that hamstringing your party by bringing a MOT is worth getting a few more on a short rest.

-Master's Tenacity grants +1 to saving throws against spells if they are cast by aberrations, fiends, and undead. Aura of Protection is in the game. Need I elaborate?

-Master of Legends: your 20th level is a free cast of Legend Lore once per day (not per long rest, per day--another case of odd wording). Forgoing the material component on it is kind of nice, but I doubt a 20th level party will particularly notice the expense. In any case, you are now doing something the Bard, Cleric, or Wizard could have done at level 9, just slightly cheaper. It also doesn't cost you a spell slot, but that's because you don't have spell slots.

So... what do you even do on this class? You have some decent skill proficiencies, but not the ones a lot of tables value most other than Perception (no Sleight of Hand/Thieves' Tools, no Stealth, no CHA skills, no Athletics or Acrobatics). You have some rituals. You likely spend most combats attacking once per round with a sling, which is more damage than Detect Weakness unless your DEX is substantially worse than your WIS or the enemy armor class is high. Even in situations where Detect Weakness is called for, you only get it once per short rest--do you get too tired for your awesome analysis powers to work after that?

I can't judge the subclasses because I don't see them on the wiki, but they'd have to be not only quite strong, but also introduce a lot more interesting options.

You could genuinely just slap full caster progression on this class and it'd be maybe on par with 5e's base classes provided the class' spell list was decent.

[Mr.PC0X]

It's got interesting flavor but there are no mechanics in this class that make it even close to worthwhile. It has a d6 hit die, light armor and no martial weapon proficiency so it definitely doesn't belong on the front lines. But it also doesn't have spellcasting except for ritual spells. And its special ability is limited use, requires a check and only gives a small one turn damage bonus. The guy does get expertise which is always nice, but only 3 skills from a limited list, which is fewer than a rouge or bard get.

A knowledge cleric, mastermind rouge, a wizard with expertise somehow (via a feat or a class dip), a pact of the tome warlock, or any bard who doesn't dump intelligence, can give you the same flavor while having significantly stronger mechanics in every area.

You'd have to add a lot to this class to make it even close to worthwhile because right now the only way I can see this being used in a game is by making this an NPC sidekick class.

Thank you for the insight, so here are the things I intend to alter, based on your siggestions:

1: Detect Weakness no longer requires a check and can be used as a bonus action a number of times equal to Proficiency Bonus, recharging on a short or long rest.
2: Tales of Monsters and magic now grants temporary hit points in addition to soul points.
3: Masters Tenacity now provides half proficiency to saving throws against spells regardless of source (not defined by originof creature type)
4: 1st level spells cast from subclasses can be cast a number of times equal to Proficiency Bonus or Intelligence modifier, recharging on a short or long rest.

It is remarkably obvious this class is supposed to be a degensive support class not meant for the front lines. In the subclasses I've already designed I've tried to keep this ideology, but I agree, the base class seems REALLY lackluster.

[JNAProductions]

Echoing the others.

Unless the subclasses are monstrously powerful, this class is bad. I would not allow anyone to play it at my table, because I need PCs to be able to contribute.

[Chaos Jackal]

This isn't narrowly built, this is flat out terrible. I sincerely hope the subclasses and/or the Soul Point subsystem mentioned come with a big bang, because otherwise the class is essentially useless by virtue of having nothing to do.

Essentially, what the base chassis gives you is the ability to add up to 5d4, scaling up to 5d10, damage... once per short rest, rolling some skills and rituals. Which... essentially amounts to nothing, because everyone can roll skills, the classes that have Expertise actually have features and while Ritual Caster for free is great, it doesn't account for any situation where you don't have ten minutes to spare and there are a lot of situations like these.

Detect Weakness is so hilariously bad it's uncanny. Even if it was at will and without a check, it would still be terrible. In a party of 4-5 people, odds are not everyone will be attacking every round, attacking the same target or even attacking in general, so realistically, you'd be spending your action doing something like 3d4/6/8/10 per round. That's an average of 16.5, if you get to the d10. A bog standard greatsword with 20 Str deals 12 damage on a hit, and there will be bonuses and more attacks at the level where a Master of Tradition would be adding d10s. Making it a bonus action also matters little, since you don't really have anything to do with your action - the most you can hope for is a light crossbow attack with what is likely a secondary or tertiary stat.

As is, this is a useless class. Look into its subclasses in case it gets uses, otherwise give it better weapon proficiencies, perhaps the ability to use Int or Wis for attacking, or anything else really that would have an impact in any situation, especially a combat one. Otherwise, you are stuck doing the same thing for a tiny reward. Oh, and you'll die if anyone gets to your face, because you're a d6 character without anything better than studded leather, no mobility and no ways to boost your defense. Not that you'll be missed, because nobody would ever notice your pointless existence.

[Rukelnikov]

I checked the subs, and they are as underwhelming as the rest of the class, to be completely honest, I think giving it half casting with cantrips would be the only way to make it even remotely on par power-wise with the SRD classes, maybe allowing it access to all spells.

[Mr.PC0X]

What if I edited the class to lean more into Detect Weakness. It's an Int class in the book, so what about adding Int mod to detect weakness and usining int + pb per short rest?

Someone also mentioned halfcasting w/ cantrips which I could see, I can work on a curated list

[JNAProductions]

I applaud your efforts to keep the class from being OP.

But I think you’re better off figuring out “What do I want the class to do/be?” And building your own class or finding a good fit from existing classes.
This class is just too anemic.

[Mr.PC0X]

I applaud your efforts to keep the class from being OP.

But I think you’re better off figuring out “What do I want the class to do/be?” And building your own class or finding a good fit from existing classes.
This class is just too anemic.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I see a low survivability Int class with limited spellcasting, bridging the line between arcane and divine. A defensive minded support character who focuses on giving allies the abilitu to do more damage round to round and grants allies defensive buffs or thp. I see a subtheme of esoteric knowledge with decent skills and a focus for opposing specific creature types. I see a recluse, an advisor, an erudite, and an occiltist.

That's what I would like this class to be/do. I see the flavor and framework for that here, the question is how to refine it, make it better, useable.

[kingcheesepants]

Thank you for the insight, so here are the things I intend to alter, based on your siggestions:

1: Detect Weakness no longer requires a check and can be used as a bonus action a number of times equal to Proficiency Bonus, recharging on a short or long rest.
2: Tales of Monsters and magic now grants temporary hit points in addition to soul points.
3: Masters Tenacity now provides half proficiency to saving throws against spells regardless of source (not defined by originof creature type)
4: 1st level spells cast from subclasses can be cast a number of times equal to Proficiency Bonus or Intelligence modifier, recharging on a short or long rest.

It is remarkably obvious this class is supposed to be a degensive support class not meant for the front lines. In the subclasses I've already designed I've tried to keep this ideology, but I agree, the base class seems REALLY lackluster.

Even with those changes it's still just too weak. However looking at the features and your proposed changes did give me an idea that might be workable. Rather than making this a full class how about making it a subclass of bard? Detect weakness can be reworked as the subclass bardic inspiration, Tales of Monsters is already super similar to song of rest, you can give the ritual caster feature as the lvl 6 feature and the master's tenacity can be reworked into the level 14 feature. If you really want to make it unique and more Int than Cha you could say when choosing this subclass you may replace any bard features that use Charisma with Intelligence. And then you'll be good to go. A decent, flavorful bard subclass.

[Mr.PC0X]

Even with those changes it's still just too weak. However looking at the features and your proposed changes did give me an idea that might be workable. Rather than making this a full class how about making it a subclass of bard? Detect weakness can be reworked as the subclass bardic inspiration, Tales of Monsters is already super similar to song of rest, you can give the ritual caster feature as the lvl 6 feature and the master's tenacity can be reworked into the level 14 feature. If you really want to make it unique and more Int than Cha you could say when choosing this subclass you may replace any bard features that use Charisma with Intelligence. And then you'll be good to go. A decent, flavorful bard subclass.

The funny thing is. You're not wrong and that's something that I noticed when I first took a look at this class is that it very much appears to be bard lite, which is depressing because the book it debuted and actually had a Bard subclass.

I want to see if I can retool the class to make it unique enough to stand on its own, but also decent enough to be playable. Not necessarily you know, top tier, but definitely increase the damage output of detect weakness in order to increase its viability or usability. Start focusing more on, maybe it's ability to provide defensive buffs or THP. For the sub classes I'm thinking of at the very least, letting them summon a creature that can , help them be like a damaged sponge. I definitely like the idea of being a 1/2 cafter, at least giving it a bit more versatility, but it's still ideologically. A defensive support character so I don't want to give it too many offensive spells but at the very least. Maybe some healing spells and some wall spells maybe. It subclasses, and even with masters tenacity seem like it's leaning towards just generally being good at shrugging off. Magic and saving throws which might be something that I can lean into further. If I expand on it more.

[Rukelnikov]

What if I edited the class to lean more into Detect Weakness. It's an Int class in the book, so what about adding Int mod to detect weakness and usining int + pb per short rest?

Someone also mentioned halfcasting w/ cantrips which I could see, I can work on a curated list

Think it this way, what is this character doing as its routine? It doesn't have Extra Attack, it doesn't have cantrips (outside of 1 subclass which gets Sacred Flame), what is it doing round after round? Making a single attack with a Light Crossbow?

If you wanna lean on the sage that makes everyone else better instead of being themselves good at combat, you could buff up Detect Weakness to the point where it becomes their routine.

As is DW gives 1d4 damage for themselves and up to 4 allies, assuming a party of 5 that's 5d4 damage, for an action at lvl 1, that's ok, I don't think its a wasted action at all, but there's many caveats to it, first and foremost, being 1/sr means it cannot be your routine.

Second, it has a wisdom check, I'd leave it in place, as fighters roll att vs AC for their damage to stick, and casters have enemies roll saves for their damage/effects to stick, you would be rolling Wis vs CR for your damage to stick (you can also flavor this as not only knowing/noticing something relevant about the creature, but being able to convey said information in the midst of combat on a meaningful manner for others to take advantage of it)

Third, for this to be at its most useful you need to act before as many of your companions as possible. If Alice attacks and then MOTs turn comes up, Alice is not benefitting from this damage till next turn, nor are you benefitting from this till next turn since you are spending your action on DW and not attacking, and not all foes are gonna live long enough for the full 5d4 to be applied to them, since now the other 3 party members act, and the foe needs to survive them all and Alice, and when your second turn comes up and you can finally make use of your d4, that means you are not refreshing DW for this turn, sometimes that may not be a problem cause maybe 3 of your 4 party members missed and still keep their d4, but as EA and save for half spells enter the picture this will less common, so 5d4 is looking exceptionally generous, even more so when fighting lots of weak enemies, as they are likely to go down before each party member connects a hit against them.

Here's how I'd change this to make DW the classes routine action.

Detect Weakness

At 1st level, you are able to study the enemy in front of you to identify their weaknesses and point them out to your allies.

As an action, you can focus attention on a target within 30 feet, and then roll a Wisdom check to which you can apply your Proficiency bonus (DC equal to 10 + the target Challenge Rating).

If successful, you and up to 4 allies within 30 feet, add 1d4 to the next damage roll within the next minute against that specific target.

The damage bonus increases to 1d6 at 5th level, 1d8 at 11th level and 1d10 at 17th level.

Exploit Weakness

At 1st level, whenever you make successful use of your Detect Weakness feature, you may immediately spend a bonus action to make an attack against that creature. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.

You could have it be Int modifier times if you want Int to be the classes secondary stat.

Font of Exploitation

Beginning when you reach 5th level, you regain all of your expended uses of Exploit Weakness when you finish a short or long rest.

If MOTs are not gonna benefit from Tales of Monsters and Magic's Soul points replenishing, or Soul points are not particularly useful, then I'd change it too:

Tales of Monsters And Magic

At 3rd level, you can tell stories and legends to your companions during a short rest. Up to 5 creatures that are able to understand your language, and complete a short rest nearby may listen to your words (they cannot therefore be engaged in doing anything else) regain 1d4 Soul Points at the end of the short rest.

Choose a creature type, the first time someone benefiting from this feature deals damage to a creature of the chosen type, they may consider it to be under the effects of your current level of Detect Weakness. The benefit lasts until they take a long rest.

At 9th level, the creatures regain 1d8 Soul Points instead, and your current level of Master's Tenacity against creatures of the chosen type, this benefit lasts until their next short rest

I think that's a start, now they have a somewhat decent routine, still need more, but even when power wise I don't think giving them half casting would be a problem I do think it will diminish the relevance of some of their other features like the rituals, and the few spells granted by subclasses. They still need something more though.

[Mr.PC0X]

There's a lot here to dig through but you're on to something. Part of me wants to try giving them True Strike, and let them deal additional damage on attacks benefitting from it equal to their DW die + Int or Wis mod.

Also thought about making DW grant advantage ot expanded crits at higher levels.

Soul Points are useless outside Nightfell so I planned to replace them with THP, and allow the feature to recharge on short rests so charchters are frequently overstocked for HP.

I'll need to spend more time looking into some of uour suggestions than I have atm, but I'm interested in working on this.