Druid Wildshape Question

[Lolth]

OK, so a Druid, 5th level, Wildshapes in to a Lion.

Which of the Lion's abilities does it keep, which does it lose?

I know this is a stupid question, but I am easily confused by wildshape/polymorph type issues.


All help appreciated.

[Chronos]

Wild Shape works like Alternate Form. Alternate Form grants:

# The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
# The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
# The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.

Lions don't have any supernatural or spell-like abilities, so that's moot. The druid gains the natural weapons (claw 1d4+5, bite 1d8+2), natural armor (+3), movement modes (40 ft.), and extraordinary special attacks (Pounce, improved grab, rake 1d4+2). The druid does not gain Low-Light Vision or Scent, because those are special qualities, not special attacks.

[mockingbyrd7]

Question: it says "any small or medium animal" in the Wild Shape description. Lions are large, so could a druid actually wild shape into a lion? Or is this just hypothetical?

[tainsouvra]

Question: it says "any small or medium animal" in the Wild Shape description. Lions are large, so could a druid actually wild shape into a lion? Or is this just hypothetical?

I'm sure it was hypothetical as use for an example, but it's directly relevant for an 8+ Druid of course.

[tyckspoon]

Question: it says "any small or medium animal" in the Wild Shape description. Lions are large, so could a druid actually wild shape into a lion? Or is this just hypothetical?

He'd have to wait until 8th level for Wildshape (Large.) At 5th level, he could instead turn into a Leopard, which has the same set of extraordinary special attacks (which he gets to use) and special qualities (which he doesn't.)

[Ungvar]

And what about the skills? This article on the current state of Polymorph-type effects directly addresses what a druid gets in three different forms. It clearly indicates the druid gets bonuses to skills depending on the form, but it does so in a really whacked out way:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060523a

Human Druid 6 with normal +4 to climb wild shapes into a leopard with a +19!?!?

Even if that's a typo, the article does the same thing for just about all the skills where the animal form is superior to the human form.

I think the only real answer is that wotc just never did a good job of thinking through the whole shapechanging thing. There's certainly enough self-contradiction going on in the various wotc sources to make numerous positions defensible. I think the most sensible solution is to determine the skills that are based primarily on physical characteristics, and rule that the druid gains them for whatever form he or she takes.

That doesn't just mean that the druid gets all the skills of the animal that have Str/Dex/Con as the relevant modifier. It would be just silly, in my view, not to get a bat's bonus to Listen or a hawk's bonus to Spot just because those are Wis based. You have the bat's ears, and you have the hawk's eyes. And if you can emulate the poison glands of a viper, I don't see why you can't duplicate a bat's ears.

[tyckspoon]

And what about the skills? This article on the current state of Polymorph-type effects directly addresses what a druid gets in three different forms. It clearly indicates the druid gets bonuses to skills depending on the form, but it does so in a really whacked out way:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060523a

Human Druid 6 with normal +4 to climb wild shapes into a leopard with a +19!?!?

For Climb, at least: The leopard has a climb speed, which gives a +8 racial bonus to Climb checks. The Druid's armor also melds in, so she's not taking the Armor Check Penalty any more; for the +1 hide she is listed as wearing, that's -3, so another +3 swing to the check. And lastly Climb is a Strength-based skill; the leopard is Strength 16 to the Druid's base of Strength 10, so that's another +3. Total +14 increase to Climb check. Changing shape shouldn't have any affect on skills other than those that result from changes to stats or other gross physical changes (you would see a similar increase to Swim if she changed to something with a swim speed.)

Edit: Math's still wrong. Magic stuff has to be masterwork, so that should be only -2 ACP on the armor. Seems to have been calculated as if it was -3 anyway. The skills for the other animals also seem to be including other racial skill bonuses, such as the viper's bonus to Listen, but I can find nothing in the rules for Alternate Form that would give you those bonuses. It makes sense that you would get them since they are largely based on the creature's physical properties, but it's not granted by strict text.

Extra Edit: Oh, right. Forgot the shield. That's another -2 ACP that disappears when the Druid wildshapes. So +8 for having a Climb speed, +4 for ACP that no longer applies, and +3 improved Strength gives a 15-point swing in the Climb check.

[Lemur]

Wild Shape works like Alternate Form. Alternate Form grants:

# The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
# The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
# The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.

Lions don't have any supernatural or spell-like abilities, so that's moot. The druid gains the natural weapons (claw 1d4+5, bite 1d8+2), natural armor (+3), movement modes (40 ft.), and extraordinary special attacks (Pounce, improved grab, rake 1d4+2). The druid does not gain Low-Light Vision or Scent, because those are special qualities, not special attacks.

As a visual elaboration, looking at the lion's stat block, you get the abilities highlighted in red. Abilities not highlighted are not gained, and you retain whatever your old abilities were. Note that your initiative and saving throws will be altered based on your new Dex and Con scores, but will not necessarily be the same as in the stat block.

Spoiler

Show

Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+10 (32 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+12
Attack: Claw +7 melee (1d4+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +7 melee (1d4+5) and bite +2 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Pounce, improved grab, rake 1d4+2
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +2
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Balance +7, Hide +3*, Listen +5, Move Silently +11, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Run
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pride (6-10)
Challenge Rating: 3
Advancement: 6-8 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —

Although of course the druid would have to be at least 8th level, as other posters mentioned, to turn into a lion.

[Ungvar]

For Climb, at least: The leopard has a climb speed, which gives a +8 racial bonus to Climb checks. The Druid's armor also melds in, so she's not taking the Armor Check Penalty any more; for the +1 hide she is listed as wearing, that's -3, so another +3 swing to the check. And lastly Climb is a Strength-based skill; the leopard is Strength 16 to the Druid's base of Strength 10, so that's another +3. Total +14 increase to Climb check. Changing shape shouldn't have any affect on skills other than those that result from changes to stats or other gross physical changes (you would see a similar increase to Swim if she changed to something with a swim speed.)

But a real, actual leopard only has a +11 to Climb!
.
.
.

and how does THAT work, anyway? 19 Dex should give a +4, and a +8 racial bonus should give a total of +12, not +11! What am I missing?


Anyway, my main point is that this article is really the only place I've seen support for the argument that the wild shaped druid gets the racial skill bonuses of the animal. It just isn't addressed. So the moral of the story is that if you want to have wild shaping or polymorphing, you really are going to have to make up your own house rule, because there isn't really a RAW.

[ThunderEagle]

But a real, actual leopard only has a +11 to Climb!
.
.
.

and how does THAT work, anyway? 19 Dex should give a +4, and a +8 racial bonus should give a total of +12, not +11! What am I missing?


Anyway, my main point is that this article is really the only place I've seen support for the argument that the wild shaped druid gets the racial skill bonuses of the animal. It just isn't addressed. So the moral of the story is that if you want to have wild shaping or polymorphing, you really are going to have to make up your own house rule, because there isn't really a RAW.

climb is a strength based skill. strength of 16 gives +3, added to the racial +8 gives +11.

[Ungvar]

climb is a strength based skill. strength of 16 gives +3, added to the racial +8 gives +11.

Yeah, I realized that this morning. Long day

[Chronos]

Anyway, my main point is that this article is really the only place I've seen support for the argument that the wild shaped druid gets the racial skill bonuses of the animal. It just isn't addressed.

It is addressed, for Climb and Swim specifically. All creatures with a climb speed automatically gain a bonus to Climb, and all creatures with a swim speed automatically gain a bonus to Swim. The druid gains the movement modes of the creature, so the druid gains a climb speed, so the druid gains the skill bonus. So by the rules as written, that climb speed is fine.

What's more perplexing is that druid's Spot score when in eagle form. Her wisdom didn't change, and her Spot isn't modified by any equipment, but her Spot increases by 8 in eagle form, corresponding to the eagle's racial bonus. I can't see any justification in the text of Wild Shape nor Alternate Form which justifies granting non-movement racial skill bonuses.

[seedjar]

I think it may have been an oversight, because the original 3.5 polymorph rules cover racial skill bonuses. In fact, I think I may have seen them mentioned in the PHB, but it's not covered in the SRD online so I'm probably just imagining things.
~Joe