Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)

[Grim Portent]

Depends, Maven and Laila's steward are grifters first and foremost. Maven becomes Jarl when the city is taken by military force, and claims to have ties to powerful figures in Cyrodiil, so she's probably untouchable as far as the Legion is concerned.

If they think they can extract more money from the Rift by keeping a war going for a bit longer then they would do it, and they'd lie and manipulate Laila well past the point of any hope of victory to do so. The only thing that makes them swap is when trying to keep Laila in place as a puppet is more effort and risk than just overtly taking over and returning to corrupt business as usual.

[Errorname]

So The Rift and The Pale might keep fighting, Winterhold would probably fold. Windhelm has no obvious heir apparent to take over for a dead Ulfric.

They only captured Ulfric, not Galmar or any other major officers. There might be no obvious heir apparent to the throne, but the Stormcloak commanders are all still in play and so even if all the Jarls roll over instantly after Ulfric dies (probably not happening, Skald is a true believer and the sunk-cost probably keeps the other two in the fight) you're still going to have a large mobilized army with an intact command structure and an ironclad belief in the cause.

Ulfric's death is probably decisive in the sense that it would mark the point where Stormcloak victory stops being a plausible outcome, but without the Dragonborn to break the military stalemate it would probably still take a very long time for them to finally actually lose.

[veti]

A war of Imperial conquest with no hope of victory in the Rift would be bad for Riften and its criminals, especially if the Legion came in to stamp out the corruption.

The Legion, stamp out corruption? Srsly?

The Legion doesn't do that. It's commanded by people who see corruption as the natural order. Think Erikur, or Vittoria - they're not directly connected to the legion, but they represent its culture perfectly. That's why it chooses to put Maven in charge of Riften. They could have had Mjoll, or even Bolli, but no, go with Maven.

[Keltest]

The Legion, stamp out corruption? Srsly?

The Legion doesn't do that. It's commanded by people who see corruption as the natural order. Think Erikur, or Vittoria - they're not directly connected to the legion, but they represent its culture perfectly. That's why it chooses to put Maven in charge of Riften. They could have had Mjoll, or even Bolli, but no, go with Maven.

Bolli? The guy who owns the fishery? Is he actually big in the community at all? Mjoll is, IIRC, fairly unpopular in Riften since she keeps picking trouble with the criminal element. While that might be laudable, a community leader she is not. They put Maven in charge because she is, for better or worse, a big figure in the community and connected to the Imperials.

[Errorname]

They put Maven in charge because she is, for better or worse, a big figure in the community and connected to the Imperials.

It does make sense enough to ally with a local crime lord, but it does make any statement of the Empire "stamping out corruption" utterly laughable

[Keltest]

It does make sense enough to ally with a local crime lord, but it does make any statement of the Empire "stamping out corruption" utterly laughable

Player experience aside, Maven's position as crime lord is not actually public knowledge. Thats sort of how crime lords work.

Maybe more to the point, the degree to which she is actually a crime lord rather than just rich and ruthless is a little up in the air. She employs the services of criminal organizations (or at least the Thieves Guild. She's probably lying about her connections to the Brotherhood) but doesn't have a leadership position in any of them and is explicitly described as a client for the Guild, similarly to other influential figures with money in other holds.

[Errorname]

Maybe more to the point, the degree to which she is actually a crime lord rather than just rich and ruthless is a little up in the air. She employs the services of criminal organizations (or at least the Thieves Guild. She's probably lying about her connections to the Brotherhood)

Crime Lord might be overstating it (although she is a Lord who does Crime) but her connections and use of the Guild and Brotherhood (even if she probably needs to go through the Guild to contact the Brotherhood) isn't exactly secret, at least to anyone who is in the know about local politics.

doesn't have a leadership position in any of them and is explicitly described as a client for the Guild, similarly to other influential figures with money in other holds.

A key thing about the Thieves' Guild questline is that they're in dire straits. Maven is not merely a client, she is their only major client at the start of the game and when someone tries to take down the Guild, they do it by trying to break their connection with Maven, with the understanding that without her support what's left of the Guild would fall apart.

So yeah, putting her in charge makes the idea that the Empire is stamping out corruption in any form laughable.

[veti]

Bolli? The guy who owns the fishery? Is he actually big in the community at all? Mjoll is, IIRC, fairly unpopular in Riften since she keeps picking trouble with the criminal element. While that might be laudable, a community leader she is not. They put Maven in charge because she is, for better or worse, a big figure in the community and connected to the Imperials.

Bolli employs a bunch of people and his employees seem to like him. He's also popular at the temple. Mjoll may be "fairly unpopular" with the criminal element, but the merchants all love her, which seems to me like not an unreasonable position.

Player experience aside, Maven's position as crime lord is not actually public knowledge. Thats sort of how crime lords work.

Maybe more to the point, the degree to which she is actually a crime lord rather than just rich and ruthless is a little up in the air.

When the Thieves' Guild appoints a new master, Maven is there - in their HQ, attending the ceremony as an honoured guest - and takes time to tell the new boss not to screw it up. Throughout the TG questline, Maven is the boss - way more important to decision making than Mercer or anyone else who's actually in the guild. A significant part of the questline is devoted to putting a rival of hers out of business.

And I don't know about "not public knowledge". She employs Maul, as far as I can tell, specifically to stand about on the street and tell everyone new coming into the city about it.

[Grim Portent]

At the start of the Thieves Guild plotline Maven is very much the guild's patron. They survive because she has a use for them as deniable assets, the guards largely leave them alone because she pays them off. She has her own enforcer in the city and the Jarl's steward in her pocket. She's a corrupt businesswoman keeping the overt criminals on a leash for personal gain. The Kingpin of Riften as it were.

[Cikomyr2]

At the start of the Thieves Guild plotline Maven is very much the guild's patron. They survive because she has a use for them as deniable assets, the guards largely leave them alone because she pays them off. She has her own enforcer in the city and the Jarl's steward in her pocket. She's a corrupt businesswoman keeping the overt criminals on a leash for personal gain. The Kingpin of Riften as it were.

Yhea she's a local tycoon allowing McDonald's to run business in her backyard in exchange for favor and deniability.

If there's one character that just gets more powerful any way possible in Skyrim, its Maven.

[Errorname]

For what it's worth, it's not like the Stormcloaks are any better. Ulfric does the exact same "put a corrupt business owner in charge" with Thongvor Silver-Blood in Markarth.

[veti]

For what it's worth, it's not like the Stormcloaks are any better. Ulfric does the exact same "put a corrupt business owner in charge" with Thongvor Silver-Blood in Markarth.

Yeah, we're not quite so sure about him. His brother Thonar was a crook (arguably) even worse than Maven, but we can't be sure how closely Thongvor was involved in any of that.

On the one hand, it seems implausible that he didn't know at least in general terms what his brother was up to. On the other, I don't think there's any actual evidence linking him to his brother's crimes, and his brother's wife Betrid flat out says that it's Thonar who runs all the business. Dialogue between Thonar and his wife (which UESP records, but I admit I've never heard myself) suggests that Thonar has very little respect for his brother and is likely keeping him a good deal in the dark.

Edit: It's the balance of jarls that makes me want more to support Ulfric rather than the Empire. The Stormcloak jarls may be weak (Laila) or petty (Skald) or senile (Vignar) or chancers (Sorli), but they are, mostly, honest. Whereas on the Imperial side you have outright crooks like Siddgeir and Maven, and the whole show being nominally run by Elisif - probably the weakest-willed character in the whole game. The best jarl on either side is Balgruuf, and he's in no hurry to pick sides either. (I kinda want to slap him when, during Season Unending, he bursts out "This is how the empire rewards us for our loyalty?" That's pretty rich, coming from him of all people.)

[Errorname]

Yeah, we're not quite so sure about him. His brother Thonar was a crook (arguably) even worse than Maven, but we can't be sure how closely Thongvor was involved in any of that.

I think it's pretty clear that the game is drawing an equivalence between the Black-Briars and the Silver-Bloods. Ruthless noble families who start out as de facto rulers of their holds that align themselves with the winning side of the war to end up de jure ruling the hold.

The game gives you more opportunities to undermine the Silver-Bloods, including killing their Maven equivalent, but putting Hemming Black-Briar in charge of Riften wouldn't be much better.

Edit: It's the balance of jarls that makes me want more to support Ulfric rather than the Empire. The Stormcloak jarls may be weak (Laila) or petty (Skald) or senile (Vignar) or chancers (Sorli), but they are, mostly, honest. Whereas on the Imperial side you have outright crooks like Siddgeir and Maven, and the whole show being nominally run by Elisif - probably the weakest-willed character in the whole game. The best jarl on either side is Balgruuf, and he's in no hurry to pick sides either. (I kinda want to slap him when, during Season Unending, he bursts out "This is how the empire rewards us for our loyalty?" That's pretty rich, coming from him of all people.)

I actually think the balance of Jarls is heavily skewed in the Empire's favour.

There are like two holds in the game where the best Jarl is the Stormcloak one (Falkreath and Riften) and frankly in both scenarios you're picking the best of bad options, and Balgruuf or Vignar is kind of a lateral move. For the rest of the holds I think the Imperial option is just flatly better. Not always good, Igmund sucks and Kraldar is unimpressive, but their stormcloak equivalents are worse, Ulfric has positive qualities but Brunwulf is clearly a decent man who wants to do right by people who Ulfric is doing wrong, and Idgrod and Brina are both decent people who care about the good of the hold whose alternatives are completely self-interested.

[veti]

I think it's pretty clear that the game is drawing an equivalence between the Black-Briars and the Silver-Bloods. Ruthless noble families who start out as de facto rulers of their holds that align themselves with the winning side of the war to end up de jure ruling the hold.

I agree there are strong parallels, but you have to be careful with "parallels", because it invariably turns out that they're not nearly as parallel as they first appeared. This is a point I was thinking about earlier in this thread, in the context of racism in Windhelm.

In this case, Maven's equivalent is Thonar, and you can straight up kill him, no problem. As I said before, his brother Thongvor - is no oil painting, he certainly wouldn't be my choice to govern the city, but there's no evidence that he's flat-out crooked, unlike his late brother. This is a marked contrast to the Black-Briar case, where Maven is clearly and visibly nurturing and involving her family in every part of the "business".

I actually think the balance of Jarls is heavily skewed in the Empire's favour.

There are like two holds in the game where the best Jarl is the Stormcloak one (Falkreath and Riften) and frankly in both scenarios you're picking the best of bad options, and Balgruuf or Vignar is kind of a lateral move. For the rest of the holds I think the Imperial option is just flatly better. Not always good, Igmund sucks and Kraldar is unimpressive, but their stormcloak equivalents are worse, Ulfric has positive qualities but Brunwulf is clearly a decent man who wants to do right by people who Ulfric is doing wrong, and Idgrod and Brina are both decent people who care about the good of the hold whose alternatives are completely self-interested.

Yeah, it's a tough call. Listing the Imperial candidates first for consistency:

• Igmund vs Thongvor - we can agree they both suck in different ways. I'm inclined to favour Thongvor just because he doesn't host the Thalmor in his own palace. Score: Empire -1.
• Siddgeir vs Dengeir - again we can agree, both poor but Siddgeir is appreciably worse. Score: Empire -1.
• Idgrod vs Sorli - I used to like Idgrod better than I do nowadays. Now I can't stop noticing how unpopular she is in her own capital. Sounds as if there's a revolution brewing there that has nothing to do with the Stormcloaks. I'm inclined to see this as a wash. Score: 0.
• Balgruuf vs Vignar - I like Balgruuf. The worst moment in the Stormcloak campaign is when you kick him out of Dragonsreach. But I don't know anything specifically bad about Vignar, apart from some people (most notably Ulfberth War-Bear) insinuating that he's past it. And I have to point out that Balgruuf, for all he seems like a decent leader, has done a terrible job of raising his own kids. (Vignar's family is above reproach.) Score: Empire +2.
• Brunwulf vs Ulfric - Brunwulf is the better candidate, mostly because he doesn't have higher political ambitions, which allows him to focus on his own hold. Score: Empire +1.
• Kraldar vs Korir - Korir is a blinkered idiot, Kraldar a weak-willed sycophant. Neither one seems likely to give Winterhold any kind of useful leadership. Score: 0
• Brina Merelis vs Skald - yep, again I agree, have to give this one to Brina. Score: Empire +1.

So far, the advantage seems to be with the Empire, at +2 preference points. But I've saved the best for last:

• Maven vs Laila - frankly I would rather delete Skyrim from my drive and never play it again, than put Maven on any kind of throne. She's not only evil, she's by far the nastiest and most eminently hateable character in the whole game. And about all I can do to get back at her is steal her horse. So frustrating. Empire: -3.
• Elisif vs Elisif - I think the Stormcloak Elisif is a significantly better ruler than the Imperial one. Without the distraction of playing at national politics and swearing revenge, without the parasitic legion's presence in her hold, Elisif is a sadder but wiser leader. At the very least she's no longer sacrificing her own city guards to feed a personal vendetta dressed up as a war. Empire: -1.

So that's my preferences, and they leave me rooting (but not very enthusiastically) for a Stormcloak victory.

[Errorname]

Idgrod vs Sorli - I used to like Idgrod better than I do nowadays. Now I can't stop noticing how unpopular she is in her own capital. Sounds as if there's a revolution brewing there that has nothing to do with the Stormcloaks. I'm inclined to see this as a wash.

Idgrod's getting old and she's a little aloof but she does seem to care, which is preferable to Sorli being an open careerist who intends to use Morthal as a stepping stone to a different hold. Idgrod also has kids who don't suck, she's literally the only Jarl I can think of who has a clear heir who is a decent likeable person.

Maven vs Laila - frankly I would rather delete Skyrim from my drive and never play it again, than put Maven on any kind of throne. She's not only evil, she's by far the nastiest and most eminently hateable character in the whole game. And about all I can do to get back at her is steal her horse. So frustrating.

The truth is that Maven is running things no matter who's in charge. It's still bad, but since I do not share your charitable interpretation of Thongvor's character I don't see it as any worse than putting the Silver-Bloods in charge of Markarth.

Elisif vs Elisif - I think the Stormcloak Elisif is a significantly better ruler than the Imperial one. Without the distraction of playing at national politics and swearing revenge, without the parasitic legion's presence in her hold, Elisif is a sadder but wiser leader. At the very least she's no longer sacrificing her own city guards to feed a personal vendetta dressed up as a war.

Most of your reasons for why Stormcloak Elisif is better boil down the war being over, which also applies to her on an Imperial run. That's a lateral move at best.

[Cikomyr2]

I would argue that High Queen Ellisif would remain an imperial puppet anyway and always favor imperial prerogatives over the well being of Skyrim or Solitude, whereas Jarl Ellisif would at least be able to prioritize on Solitude. Which i think it greatly needs, because its the one hold with the most matter-of-fact wealth discrepancy and gentrification not explained by an active corrupting influence like the thieve guild/Maven or the Forsworn/Silverblood.

Ah just makes me sad about the lack of follow up after the civil war. The idea of the Dragonborns going and reforming the Jarls of Skyrim to make sure they are proper Stewart of their people (or alternatively, the Dragonborn reinforcing the predatory nature of the jarl rulership for his own benefit) would make for good storytelling.

[druid91]

Brunwulf is clearly a decent man who wants to do right by people who Ulfric is doing wrong.

Brunwulf is a weird character because like.... I get a feeling that at one point he was supposed to be right? But at some point all that was cut from the game so now he's just the crazy old man making things up to be mad at Ulfric about while also ignoring that his missus does a lot of the same things Brunwulf decries in Ulfric and his supporters.

[veti]

Idgrod's getting old and she's a little aloof but she does seem to care, which is preferable to Sorli being an open careerist who intends to use Morthal as a stepping stone to a different hold. Idgrod also has kids who don't suck, she's literally the only Jarl I can think of who has a clear heir who is a decent likeable person.

The thing about Idgrod - she's (apparently) been there her whole life, she's had plenty of opportunity to win the confidence of her people, but she's signally failed to do so. They have absolutely zero trust in her.

Currently the dispute is about allowing a wizard into the town. It seems petty and stupid, but (a) she's not able to convince them even over such a trivial thing as this (every(?) other jarl has a freaking court wizard, people seem to accept that), and (b) Falion really is "up to something" in the marshes that (to my knowledge) is never really explained. Idgrod tries to call him to order about it, but I don't think anything changes. Maybe people are right not to trust him.

The truth is that Maven is running things no matter who's in charge.

Meh. Up to a point. Laila is a weak character, and she'll bend to whatever advice she's given in the most confident tone. We see that coming mostly from Maven, but Mjoll - and, potentially, the Dragonborn - also have voices, and may be able to persuade her to a different course sometimes.

Most of your reasons for why Stormcloak Elisif is better boil down the war being over, which also applies to her on an Imperial run. That's a lateral move at best.

If the Imperials win, then Elisif is high queen of Skyrim. But she's a hopelessly weak character, completely underqualified for that role. That suits the Legion fine, the last thing they want is a strong ruler in Skyrim, but their presence is toxic to her. With the Legion there, she will never have to - indeed, never get the chance to - step up and make any kind of meaningful decisions whatever, whether about Skyrim or Solitude.

Remove the Legion, and renounce her claim to the throne, and then she can focus on governing Solitude and Haafingar - a job I think she probably has the potential to grown into. (So does Ulfric, apparently.) She goes from being infantilised by the Legion and manipulated by the Thalmor, to being bullied by Ulfric. That's definitely an improvement. She'll be bitter, certainly, but she can't deny she's got off lightly in the circumstances.

Brunwulf is a weird character because like.... I get a feeling that at one point he was supposed to be right? But at some point all that was cut from the game so now he's just the crazy old man making things up to be mad at Ulfric about while also ignoring that his missus does a lot of the same things Brunwulf decries in Ulfric and his supporters.

Elda doesn't really... do anything, she's all talk. At the end of the day, she's serving Dunmer customers as well as any other race. Mind you Ulfric doesn't noticeably do much either, but in his case that's part of the problem, because he's in charge.

If Brunwulf takes over, the Dunmer seem pretty pleased about it, but all parties agree that nothing substantial has actually changed, yet at least. Does Rolff at least stop shouting abuse at night? - I'm not sure, but from a glance in the Creation Kit it looks to me as if he keeps at it - there's no conditions on that package, so it will never change as long as he's alive. So either Brunwulf is taking things very slowly, or he's serious about free speech...

[Keltest]

Brunwulf IIRC has dialogue about planning out the logistics for the renovations of the Grey Quarter once he becomes Jarl, and presumably he responds to bandit attacks on Dunmer refugees the way Ulfric doesn't. If we don't see any changes its almost certainly because Skyrim is bad about showing the passage of time after major events, and not because he's a liar.

[Errorname]

The thing about Idgrod - she's (apparently) been there her whole life, she's had plenty of opportunity to win the confidence of her people, but she's signally failed to do so. They have absolutely zero trust in her.

Honestly it seems more like she's getting old and some people are worried she's going senile more than that she never had confidence.

Meh. Up to a point. Laila is a weak character, and she'll bend to whatever advice she's given in the most confident tone. We see that coming mostly from Maven, but Mjoll - and, potentially, the Dragonborn - also have voices, and may be able to persuade her to a different course sometimes.

Laila is tied down by bad counsel since all of her advisors are in Maven's pocket, Mjoll clearly isn't able to counter that, and a Dragonborn based out of Riften is very likely to be a Thieves' Guild member who is also on Maven's payroll, so no I don't think it's fixable.

[GloatingSwine]

a Dragonborn based out of Riften is very likely to be a Thieves' Guild member who is also on Maven's payroll, so no I don't think it's fixable.

Only because she’s an essential character and I wasn’t allowed to kill and eat her.

[veti]

Brunwulf IIRC has dialogue about planning out the logistics for the renovations of the Grey Quarter once he becomes Jarl, and presumably he responds to bandit attacks on Dunmer refugees the way Ulfric doesn't. If we don't see any changes its almost certainly because Skyrim is bad about showing the passage of time after major events, and not because he's a liar.

He absolutely could shut Rolff up on day one. Just tell the guards to have a word with him, keep him out of the Grey Quarter at night - job done, at least a 20% improvement in Dunmer living standards right there.

I agree Skyrim is really bad at changing the environment, because budget. But that comes down to "this is the text we've got", again. Rolff could be fixed with a single line in the Creation Kit, which is about the same amount of effort it would take Brunwulf, but neither he nor Bethesda has thought it worth doing.

[Errorname]

I agree Skyrim is really bad at changing the environment, because budget. But that comes down to "this is the text we've got", again. Rolff could be fixed with a single line in the Creation Kit, which is about the same amount of effort it would take Brunwulf, but neither he nor Bethesda has thought it worth doing.

The thing is that the text we've got is contradictory. Multiple characters have lines asserting that Brunwulf being in power is making things better even though in actual gameplay terms nothing changes.

[Xihirli]

Hold up, is ONLY Ulfric able to call a Moot? If I’m the Emperor and I’m politically savvy about Skyrim, here’s what I think I would do after the Ulfric / Torryg fight in order to prevent a Civil War.

1: Have one of my Jarls call a Moot. Why wouldn’t they be able to?
2: Important note, abandon the idea of trying to make Elisif High Queen. That’s trying to salvage the purpose of a figurehead who already got Fus Ro Dah’d away. Elisif is the most usable puppet of available Jarls, but that’s also a key part of why it will be difficult to get Nords to accept her as High Queen.

The rest of this depends on my top priority. If my top priority is maintaining an Empire, I put my weight behind making Balgruuf High King with Imperial support. Quietly arrange to have Ulfric assassinated before he can just repeat what he did to Torryg. I don’t like this plan, but I think it’s the best one TO MAINTAIN THE EMPIRE without civil war.

My preferred plan is to forget about maintaining an Empire and focus on the next war against the Thalmor. In that situation I can go one of two ways.
1: Accept Ulfric’s claim to the throne. This is a hard sell to Elisif and to me, I don’t think he would do all that well. But it’s certainly the way it can be done EASIEST. Don’t have to do any political maneuvering, just accept the change and allow Skyrim to be independent.
2: Put your Jarls behind Balgruuf, but this time make it clear that you’ll allow an independent Skyrim with a military alliance. Ulfric would probably accept that, he clearly respects Balgruuf, and even if he protested not all of his followers would be willing to fight if they could get MOST of what they want by accepting the Moot. Certainly Winterhold would accept this compromise.

I lose a lot, but not nearly so much as I would with a civil war raging for a few years.

[Grim Portent]

Hold up, is ONLY Ulfric able to call a Moot? If I’m the Emperor and I’m politically savvy about Skyrim, here’s what I think I would do after the Ulfric / Torryg fight in order to prevent a Civil War.

1: Have one of my Jarls call a Moot. Why wouldn’t they be able to?
2: Important note, abandon the idea of trying to make Elisif High Queen. That’s trying to salvage the purpose of a figurehead who already got Fus Ro Dah’d away. Elisif is the most usable puppet of available Jarls, but that’s also a key part of why it will be difficult to get Nords to accept her as High Queen.

The rest of this depends on my top priority. If my top priority is maintaining an Empire, I put my weight behind making Balgruuf High King with Imperial support. Quietly arrange to have Ulfric assassinated before he can just repeat what he did to Torryg. I don’t like this plan, but I think it’s the best one TO MAINTAIN THE EMPIRE without civil war.

My preferred plan is to forget about maintaining an Empire and focus on the next war against the Thalmor. In that situation I can go one of two ways.
1: Accept Ulfric’s claim to the throne. This is a hard sell to Elisif and to me, I don’t think he would do all that well. But it’s certainly the way it can be done EASIEST. Don’t have to do any political maneuvering, just accept the change and allow Skyrim to be independent.
2: Put your Jarls behind Balgruuf, but this time make it clear that you’ll allow an independent Skyrim with a military alliance. Ulfric would probably accept that, he clearly respects Balgruuf, and even if he protested not all of his followers would be willing to fight if they could get MOST of what they want by accepting the Moot. Certainly Winterhold would accept this compromise.

I lose a lot, but not nearly so much as I would with a civil war raging for a few years.

The Jarls can all theoretically call a Moot, and in theory they can do this at any time, but the Stormcloak Jarls are holding off until Ulfric is certain of his appointment as High King and no longer has the Empire trying to arrest and kill him, and the Imperial ones are all holding off until after Ulfric is arrested so there will be no question of Elisif becoming High Queen.


The Moot by the 4th era is almost a formality, a bit of ritual to validate the status quo, which for a long while has been that the Jarl of Solitude is High King, and the major players among the Jarls know this even if they don't openly say it. Torygg was High King because his dad was High King and no one felt the need to oust him rather than because they thought he would be good at the job, and this likely goes back a few generations, with an elective monarchy becoming a de facto successive one through indifference.

[Rynjin]

Which does beg the question of...why didn't Ulfric call a Moot when Torygg's dad died? That makes him just as complicit in his rise to power as everyone else, and seriously undercuts his ability to claim the moral high ground.

If he'd called a Moot and argued for a return to the old ways there, he'd have a lot more of a leg to stand on if/when people pick a poor candidate for High King just out of inertia and apathy.

[Errorname]

My preferred plan is to forget about maintaining an Empire and focus on the next war against the Thalmor. In that situation I can go one of two ways.
1: Accept Ulfric’s claim to the throne. This is a hard sell to Elisif and to me, I don’t think he would do all that well. But it’s certainly the way it can be done EASIEST. Don’t have to do any political maneuvering, just accept the change and allow Skyrim to be independent.
2: Put your Jarls behind Balgruuf, but this time make it clear that you’ll allow an independent Skyrim with a military alliance. Ulfric would probably accept that, he clearly respects Balgruuf, and even if he protested not all of his followers would be willing to fight if they could get MOST of what they want by accepting the Moot. Certainly Winterhold would accept this compromise.

I lose a lot, but not nearly so much as I would with a civil war raging for a few years.

I'd genuinely be shocked if there wasn't massive pressure within the Empire for the Legions to bring in Ulfric's head, both from imperials outraged that he murdered the lawful king and from the Thalmor's agents who want to pressure for a war. Letting Torygg's death go unpunished is something I can't imagine would have been viable for Mede.

[druid91]

Which does beg the question of...why didn't Ulfric call a Moot when Torygg's dad died? That makes him just as complicit in his rise to power as everyone else, and seriously undercuts his ability to claim the moral high ground.

If he'd called a Moot and argued for a return to the old ways there, he'd have a lot more of a leg to stand on if/when people pick a poor candidate for High King just out of inertia and apathy.

He was at that Moot. That's where he made an impression on Torygg in the first place.

[Xihirli]

Which does beg the question of...why didn't Ulfric call a Moot when Torygg's dad died? That makes him just as complicit in his rise to power as everyone else, and seriously undercuts his ability to claim the moral high ground.

If he'd called a Moot and argued for a return to the old ways there, he'd have a lot more of a leg to stand on if/when people pick a poor candidate for High King just out of inertia and apathy.

Was the White-Gold Concordat even signed then?

[druid91]

Was the White-Gold Concordat even signed then?

Yes. Ulfric wasn't Jarl before the Concordat. His father was.