Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)

[Keltest]

Oh not at all. I dont think the Forsworns were under Thalmor control, there's no evidence pointing at a relation.

Actually, i think its more likely Hrolfdir baited Ulfric at the Thalmor's suggestion, and then turned on his ally to make the whole scandal. But its completely circumstantial reasoning without an ounce of evidence to back it up.

According to at least one of the Forsworn in Markarth, the Stormcloaks savaged the civilian reachmen populace. Whether or not they were directly responsible for the systemic hunting down of the Forsworn after they gained control of the city, they definitely did a number on them in the process of reclaiming it.

But also, im not sure that it matters, because Ulfric also definitely was the one who pushed for the ending of the Talos ban in Markarth, and the one who forced the Empire to publicly say so, and thats the part of the Markarth Incident that the Thalmor were helped by.

[Errorname]

Actually, i think its more likely Hrolfdir baited Ulfric at the Thalmor's suggestion, and then turned on his ally to make the whole scandal. But its completely circumstantial reasoning without an ounce of evidence to back it up.

Basically all the information we have is that the Thalmor considered Ulfric an asset, and that he only became 'uncooperative' after the Markarth Incident. Circumstantial is sort of the best we've got.

[Cikomyr2]

Basically all the information we have is that the Thalmor considered Ulfric an asset, and that he only became 'uncooperative' after the Markarth Incident. Circumstantial is sort of the best we've got.

Yes. I just wanted to acknowledge that Ulfric being a Thalmor "asset" doesnt necessarily mean he actually knew he was a Thalmor asset. Maybe someone in his entourage was a Thalmor plant, or someone he met in the Thalmor prison that reached out to him but was actually a plant.

Like, imagine if the guy who called Ulfric to his aid in exchange of the promise of making Talos worship legal in Markath was a Thalmor agent who figured a smart plan to please his Thalmor handlers, while at the same time securing the forces necessary to reconquering his fief. (The man also conveniently died shortly after kicking the Stormcloak out and handed them to the Thalmor, on a "diplomacy" mission to the Forsworns).

[Keltest]

Yes. I just wanted to acknowledge that Ulfric being a Thalmor "asset" doesnt necessarily mean he actually knew he was a Thalmor asset. Maybe someone in his entourage was a Thalmor plant, or someone he met in the Thalmor prison that reached out to him but was actually a plant.

Like, imagine if the guy who called Ulfric to his aid in exchange of the promise of making Talos worship legal in Markath was a Thalmor agent who figured a smart plan to please his Thalmor handlers, while at the same time securing the forces necessary to reconquering his fief. (The man also conveniently died shortly after kicking the Stormcloak out and handed them to the Thalmor, on a "diplomacy" mission to the Forsworns).

I think he pretty likely does not know he's an asset. Pawns rarely do.

But also, the Jarl of Markarth being a Thalmor agent is improbable.

[bluntpencil]

Stormcloaks 100%, and for one reason, and one reason alone:

The Imperials tried to behead me because of a clerical error. That, in and of itself, is enough for me to go full on rebel, and slay anyone trying to maintain the Empire's brutally uncaring rule over the people of Tamriel.

Say what you will about Ulfric Stormcloak, he doesn't have people decapitated for no reason at all.

[Rynjin]

Right, Ulfric is a great guy to work for. Y'know, as long as you're the right type of people .

Meanwhile, the Empire was not going to execute you due to a clerical error. They were going to execute you because you were captured alongside the leader of an insurrectionist army in the territory.

If you're gonna be mad at them for a crime, be mad at them for the right one.

[Errorname]

Right, Ulfric is a great guy to work for. Y'know, as long as you're the right type of people .

I mean as I recall you don't really get treated much differently by Ulfric if you're not-a-nord in the actual game proper. Given the way a lot of the lore and dialogue is written you probably should be, but it mostly fails to materialize.

Meanwhile, the Empire was not going to execute you due to a clerical error. They were going to execute you because you were captured alongside the leader of an insurrectionist army in the territory.

Executing some schmucks who happened to be nearby when you captured some insurgents is still pretty bad

[Rater202]

Meanwhile, the Empire was not going to execute you due to a clerical error. They were going to execute you because you were captured alongside the leader of an insurrectionist army in the territory.

If you're gonna be mad at them for a crime, be mad at them for the right one.

Um, no.

The fact that you were arrested by mistake and aren't slated for execution is pointed out and a power-tripping bitch orders you executed anyway.
In what should have been full earshot of the general.

[Rynjin]

I mean as I recall you don't really get treated much differently by Ulfric if you're not-a-nord in the actual game proper. Given the way a lot of the lore and dialogue is written you probably should be, but it mostly fails to materialize.

That's because you're useful. A credit to your race, even.

Executing some schmucks who happened to be nearby when you captured some insurgents is still pretty bad

Absolutely, but that's not a clerical error, it was the intent. Be angry about the ruthlessness, not incompetence. @Rater202: you not being on the list didn't really matter; orders were to execute everyone. That's why the thief was on the block as well.

[Grim Portent]

In a sense the Empire in its current form is doomed, nothing can change that. Arguably nothing should change that. The Medes have done rather well all things considered, but the collapse is inevitable.

At this point the most important thing is keeping White-Gold out of the hands of the Aldmeri Dominion, and preferably the other towers as well. Skyrim being part of the Empire or not doesn't really matter for this, what matters is Cyrodiil not being a dysfunctional mess, and Cyrodiil has been a dysfunctional mess since the Oblivion Crisis. Too much backstabbing and division, too much general chaos. What the empire needs is to refocus on the core, get Cyrodiil stable and safe, secure the trade routes that the empire relies on, then it can focus on things like keeping the provinces in the empire.

I think in the long run the Empire would have been better off letting Skyrim go like it did with Hammerfell and Black Marsh. It's not worth holding on to bits of the Empire that are going to get you bogged down in a guerilla war even if you win the formal war. Let them go peacefully, sign some favourable treaties as part of it, flip off the Altmer by signing a defensive pact with the new government. You can always reconquer the continent in a few generations, you were going to need to take half of it back from the Dominion or independant rulers by force anyway, and that won't be a quick process. All you need to do is hold on to Cyrodiil, and eventually the pieces will fall into place, it's the single most valuable province on the continent, and well suited to founding empires.

[Rater202]

"the thief" was a horse thief, and despite his protests stealing horses was punishable by death in all sorts of cultures.

He's not being sentenced to death for being in the wrong lace at the wrong time, he's being sentenced to death for committing a crime punishable by death.

The dragonborn was explcitly noted to not have been on the list and then was specifically ordered executed anyway in a context that very much comes across less like "that sucks, but orders are orders" and more like that one specifc woman was on a power trip.

Seriously, her exact words were "Forget the list. S/he goes to the block" in an incredibly gruff tone.

That's not ruthless orders, that's power-tripping bitch who doesn't give a ****.

Hell: The fact that the horse thief was, in fact, on the list(Lokir) indicates that he was arrested on purpose rather than grabbed for being too close to the ambush.

[GloatingSwine]

"the thief" was a horse thief, and despite his protests stealing horses was punishable by death in all sorts of cultures.

He's not being sentenced to death for being in the wrong lace at the wrong time, he's being sentenced to death for committing a crime punishable by death.

You mean a crime punishable by a fine of 50 septims right?

[Rynjin]

I mean, by that logic, everything is gucci. Illegal border crossing between two regions at war has historically been a crime punishable by death as well.

[Rater202]

You mean a crime punishable by a fine of 50 septims right?

For the player, yes, but given that the Pc can murder literaly every non-ssential PC in the hold and also dozens of guards and still get out of prison with virtually no time having passed while NPC prisoners face life or death for comparatively less you ahve to infer a degree of gameplay and story degregation.

I mean, by that logic, everything is gucci. Illegal border crossing between two regions at war has historically been a crime punishable by death as well.

1: No indication that the Dragonborn entered Skyrim illegally.

2: Cyrodil is not at war with Skyrim, Skyrim itself is in a state of civil war between Imperial forces and an insurrection, so there are not, in fact, "two regions at war"

3: If it was for an illegal border crossing, they would have said that, not "forget the list. S/he's going to the block."

The cruel indifference to the Legion Commander upon being told that there was a mistake and the Dragonborn is not on the list of people slated for execution is the cause he. You're not slatted for death, you wre arrested by mistake, but this power-tripping bitch orders your death anyway.

[Rynjin]

1: No indication that the Dragonborn entered Skyrim illegally.

Except for the fact that they were arrested for illegally crossing the border. If they had been crossing legally, they...wouldn't have been arrested.

2: Cyrodil is not at war with Skyrim, Skyrim itself is in a state of civil war between Imperial forces and an insurrection, so there are not, in fact, "two regions at war"

Do you think Tullius is a local?

3: If it was for an illegal border crossing, they would have said that, not "forget the list. S/he's going to the block."

The cruel indifference to the Legion Commander upon being told that there was a mistake and the Dragonborn is not on the list of people slated for execution is the cause he. You're not slatted for death, you wre arrested by mistake, but this power-tripping bitch orders your death anyway.

You were arrested for illegal border crossing. They have no information about you other than that. Everyone on that cart is slated for death.

This is a "wrong place wrong time" crime just like Lokir. Everybody there is getting the axe because they can't risk any of Ulfric's supporters getting away. You're a political sacrifice, in other words. The list is irrelevant.

[Keltest]

Worth pointing out, you are almost certainly not on the list because you were unconscious until just before you arrived, and thus they could not learn your name or home. Not being on the list just means they didn't interrogate you.

[Rater202]

Except for the fact that they were arrested for illegally crossing the border. If they had been crossing legally, they...wouldn't have been arrested.

1: Citation for that being why they were arrested? Al context implied that it was a case of wrong place, wrong time.

2: The fact that someone was arrested is not proof that a crime was committed. Again, implications point to wrong place, wrong time.

3: For the third goddamn time, Dragonborn goes to the block because the commander said so, no other reason, and the order came in a "power-tripping bitch" tone of voice, not an "orders are orders" tone of voice.

@Keltest: If that was the case then there would be no reason to bring up that you're not on the list and presumably they would have written your physical description/'uninterrogated person.' As is there is no indication that any interrogation occurred, and the fact that Lokir has no idea what's going on and thinks he can get out of it by saying he's not ar ebel suggests otherwise.

[Errorname]

Except for the fact that they were arrested for illegally crossing the border. If they had been crossing legally, they...wouldn't have been arrested.

No real reason to think that. Crossing the border is why you were in the area, but they don't charge you with illegally crossing the border before trying to cut off your head.

Even if it was a crime, that's still a pretty disproportionate punishment.

Everybody there is getting the axe because they can't risk any of Ulfric's supporters getting away. You're a political sacrifice, in other words. The list is irrelevant.

This is not a pro-Empire argument.

[SerTabris]

I mean as I recall you don't really get treated much differently by Ulfric if you're not-a-nord in the actual game proper. Given the way a lot of the lore and dialogue is written you probably should be, but it mostly fails to materialize.

I feel like that's a sort of thing where at least a good part of it is a natural result of the design philosophy in Bethesda-style open-world games. (Even the ones they didn't write, looking at Caesar's behavior toward women Couriers in New Vegas.)

[Rynjin]

The "citation" is in the opening line of the game. You were caught crossing the border. Why would they "catch" you if you were crossing at a proper border crossing/checkpoint and had the right papers?

[Rater202]

The "citation" is in the opening line of the game. You were caught crossing the border. Why would they "catch" you if you were crossing at a proper border crossing/checkpoint and had the right papers?

Except that's not what's said.

Hey, you. You're finally awake. You were trying to cross the border, right? Walked right into that Imperial ambush, same as us, and that thief over there.

If you're a nord, Hadvar will further reply that you chose a bad time to come home.

You were arrested for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, not for crossing the border.

When it's pointed out that you were captured by mistake, the Imperial Captain in question orders you executed anyway.

That's not a good look for the Empire.

(It's especially egregious if you're not a Nord, since it's highly improbable that an Argonian or Dunmer is going to join the Stomrcloaks)

[Keltest]

Except that's not what's said.
If you're a nord, Hadvar will further reply that you chose a bad time to come home.

You were arrested for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, not for crossing the border.

When it's pointed out that you were captured by mistake, the Imperial Captain in question orders you executed anyway.

That's not a good look for the Empire.

(It's especially egregious if you're not a Nord, since it's highly improbable that an Argonian or Dunmer is going to join the Stomrcloaks)

You weren't captured "by mistake" you were in a place that you shouldn't be along with the leader of the rebellion. They can't not assume youre a stormcloak, otherwise getting spies in would be as trivial as just not wearing the color blue.

As a coincidence, it is super unfortunate for you, but you also look incredibly guilty from the Empire's perspective.

[Rynjin]

So...you think that the Empire set up an ambush at a legitimate border crossing and just hoped Ulfric would be dumb enough to pass through?

Like yeah, I think Ulfric is an idiot too, but I'm pretty sure even he isn't braindead enough to walk up to the Customs office and go "Hi, I'm Ulfric Stormcloak, leader of the Stormcloaks and true High King of Skyrim and the Nords" and then get arrested by the incredulous border guards.

[Errorname]

I feel like that's a sort of thing where at least a good part of it is a natural result of the design philosophy in Bethesda-style open-world games. (Even the ones they didn't write, looking at Caesar's behavior toward women Couriers in New Vegas.)

I remember a lot more open discrimination to a female Courier than I saw for an Argonian Stormcloak, but it's a fair point.

The "citation" is in the opening line of the game. You were caught crossing the border. Why would they "catch" you if you were crossing at a proper border crossing/checkpoint and had the right papers?

You are assuming a lot of diligence for an empire that's about to cut off your head without even doing any paperwork

[veti]

Again, the Thalmor did not have free reign to do that until Ulfric made it blatantly obvious that the Empire was not abiding by the terms of the Concordant. There was no religious persecution going on until after Ulfric, specifically, made a big deal about how it wasnt going on on his watch.

Let's be clear, that's the history according to the (unabashedly partisan) verbal account of a village blacksmith. Talking about something that happened 20 years ago. More measured accounts say that Ulfric demanded freedom of worship from the Jarl before using his militia to put down the Reachmen.

To me, the curious part of that story is the fact that Ulfric - who'd been a Thalmor prisoner of war just a few months earlier - had this Nord militia all geared up and ready to fight. Where did they come from? Why were they not ravaged by the Great War, like every other fighting force in the Empire?

Their appointed High Queen of Skyrim is a puppet to her advisor. She has no ability to rule her fief, is being obeyed at the goodwill of her three main advisors (Tulius the Imperial, her Vampire Wizard and Firebeard her lover).

I agree with you for the most part, but (1) you missed Erikur, who seems at least as influential over Elisif as any of those three, and (2) there's zero indication of a romantic relationship between Elisif and Falk Firebeard. We know Falk is involved with Bryling.

Stormcloaks 100%, and for one reason, and one reason alone:

The Imperials tried to behead me because of a clerical error. That, in and of itself, is enough for me to go full on rebel, and slay anyone trying to maintain the Empire's brutally uncaring rule over the people of Tamriel.

Say what you will about Ulfric Stormcloak, he doesn't have people decapitated for no reason at all.

Two things you find in Solitude (and Helgen) that you won't find in any Stormcloak-controlled city: an executioner (and matching block), and a freaking torture chamber. If that doesn't amount to a massive red flag against supporting the Empire, I don't know what would.

There's every indication that corruption is taken for granted in imperial circles. Consider - practically all Erikur's dialogue, and Vittoria Vici's too. Maven as Jarl of Riften. Jarl Siddgeir. Cidhna Mine. The Synod. To say nothing of the entire Dark Brotherhood quest line. The Stormcloaks are nasty and brutish, but there's a level of integrity about them. (Most of the time, anyway. It's marginal, and of doubtful value given how stupid and/or selfish most of the people concerned are, but it's there.)

I'd also point out that when Ulfric loses the Civil War, he lays down his life in battle, but when the Empire loses, Ulfric offers Elisif terms - and she, despite all her theatrics and oaths about avenging Torygg, accepts them.

[Cikomyr2]

By the way, this is what i mean by the game is badly written. It never makes any connection for a cohesive world.

Someone is getting executed for being a Horse thief, which in real medieval times was a thing. But as someone else pointed out in game its a measle 50 septim bounty.

Someone else said you are to be executed for crossing the border, but we have absolutely NO hint that the borders are effectively shut down/heavily controlled past this opening dialogue. The bulk of the empire effort seems to be fighting the Stormcloaks, not monitoring the borders. There's no comment by merchants that trade has been stopped between Skyrim and other provinces. There's no lipcomment made about the Morrowind/Skyrim province being close either, since theres a Mage Guild questline about a courrier coming from Morrowind.

The world is just senseless because we are shown arguments that should make sense in a vacuum but is absolutely ignored by the rest of the world.

You know a major plot point that is never addressed? The Greybeards' future. Because theres FOUR of them and their ONE AND ONLY RECRUIT left them 20 years ago to go and play war. That means there's a good chance the Greybeards will fail to transmit their knowledge and wisdom of this unique Voice magic.

You cannot go talk to Ulfric to make him realize he basically broke the legacy of the Greybeard by leaving them, and that he should go back and resume his training.

There's no commentary by Ulfric about you being the Dragonborn, and how you basically upstage him instantly as the True Master of the Voice, which is one of the cultural myth he has built around himself as a defender of Nord Tradition.

All of that can make for such a rich, deep and intricated lore, but Bethesda never, ever goes beyond just the random line. And we are left arguing over what a random imperial officer says in the start of the game, because whatever motivation she had is in no way related to the actual gameplay in the world. Just like how Lin's concerns about "having enough fuel" in the start of Starfield absolutely links to no actual gameplay or lore reality.

Its just something someone said to expedite the story, but no actual though has been put into it.

[Errorname]

Someone else said you are to be executed for crossing the border, but we have absolutely NO hint that the borders are effectively shut down/heavily controlled past this opening dialogue

There is no hint that the borders are shut down in the opening dialogue. From context it's very clear that you were crossing the border and blundered into an ambush set for Ulfric's company. You have committed no actual wrongdoing, you were bycatch.

You know a major plot point that is never addressed? The Greybeards' future. Because theres FOUR of them and their ONE AND ONLY RECRUIT left them 20 years ago to go and play war. That means there's a good chance the Greybeards will fail to transmit their knowledge and wisdom of this unique Voice magic.

There's five of them, one of whom is an immortal dragon. If all four of the humans die before they recruit another apprentice, which is possible, Paarthurnax will still exist and will retain their knowledge.

While I definitely think "help the Greybeards recruit some new apprentices" would have made a fine quest, I don't think it's necessarily a flaw that it isn't in the game.

[Cikomyr2]

There's five of them, one of whom is an immortal dragon. If all four of the humans die before they recruit another apprentice, which is possible, Paarthurnax will still exist and will retain their knowledge.

While I definitely think "help the Greybeards recruit some new apprentices" would have made a fine quest, I don't think it's necessarily a flaw that it isn't in the game.

Paarthunax is not a Greybeard. He taught them the Way of the Voice, and is their leader, but he is not one of them.

And Paarthunax can no longer carry that burden because by the end of the main quest, he's either been killed or left to lead the Dragons in following his example in the Way of the Voice. In either case, he is unable to continue teaching the Voice to any new Greybeard prospect.

And in any case, i find it unlikely that whatever Human-centric traditions the Greybeards developped over the millenia about the recruitment and teaching to new recruits would have been Paarthunax's domain. He doesnt even deign to speak to a proven Dragonborn until it becomes necessary to stop Anduin. Why would he go out to call recruits?

The Greybeards as an institution are more than "those who mastered the Voice", even if the rest of what makes them the Greybeard is probably focused on teaching. (I.e. whatever cultural heritage they hold is in relation to the Tu'hum and its place in Nord culture).

[Keltest]

Paarthunax is not a Greybeard. He taught them the Way of the Voice, and is their leader, but he is not one of them.

And Paarthunax can no longer carry that burden because by the end of the main quest, he's either been killed or left to lead the Dragons in following his example in the Way of the Voice. In either case, he is unable to continue teaching the Voice to any new Greybeard prospect.

And in any case, i find it unlikely that whatever Human-centric traditions the Greybeards developped over the millenia about the recruitment and teaching to new recruits would have been Paarthunax's domain. He doesnt even deign to speak to a proven Dragonborn until it becomes necessary to stop Anduin. Why would he go out to call recruits?

The Greybeards as an institution are more than "those who mastered the Voice", even if the rest of what makes them the Greybeard is probably focused on teaching. (I.e. whatever cultural heritage they hold is in relation to the Tu'hum and its place in Nord culture).

Paarthurnax is absolutely a Greybeard. They flat out call him as such when you ask about their membership, among other things.

[Cikomyr2]

Paarthurnax is absolutely a Greybeard. They flat out call him as such when you ask about their membership, among other things.

Which is absolutely bonkers because he never had to learn the Tu'hum. He was created with its knowledge infused as part of his being.

Again, another absolutely beautiful thing in the lore: the Way of the Voice is basically a philosophy of existence for Dragons to grow an appreciation for the harmony of the world, tampering their impulse to dominate and replace it with contentment. The Dragons have the power already, its about seeking spiritual enlightenment.

Whereas for Humans, its basically access to the Power of the Dragons. Spiritual enlightenment is taught as part of the Way, but obviously the Greybeards hold resentment for those who abandoned the spiritual enlightenment side of the Voice and just go about using it to assert power over the world.

Its like if both specie approach the Way of the Voice from two completely different angles and aspiration and i cant remember last time i saw it in a work of fiction.