Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)

[Rynjin]

Bosmer and Orcs.. i dont really remember them being that much present elsewhere in the cities.

Bosmer seem relatively rare in general, yeah. Orcs are more common in the Imperial cities because the army employs so many as blacksmiths.

Now this is an argument with some proper weight! Yes, agreed. A lot, lot of Nord culture emphasize their human roots, worship of pro-human heroes, etc..

But this is a massive indictment of Nord culture as a whole.

I do not think any worshipper of Shor is necessarily pro-human. They just acknowledge and respect their creator.

In a way, yes, but the issue with the Stormcloaks is that they hold themselves up as bastions of that Nord culture. They want a return to the pre-Imperial days entirely, without the softening that came with integration.

[veti]

A couple of Dunmer in Windhelm remark that the Nords seem to hate "anyone who isn't a Nord". But none of the other non-Nords in the city seem to share this perception. The Altmer do OK, and the (significant population of) Imperials seem to have quite a high status (Viola, Calixto, Adonato, "the Aretino residence").

Argonians are kept out of the city, yes - but at the behest of the Dunmer, not the Nords. The hatred between Dunmer and Argonians goes far deeper than either group's feelings toward Nords.

UESP lists ten Dunmer people in Windhelm:

Voldsea Giryon - makes no complaints about her treatment, experiences no difficulty or harrassment walking about the city or drinking in Candlehearth Hall.
Aval Atheron - runs a stand in the main market, alongside all the other merchants. Isn't treated noticeably differently from anyone else.
Faryl Atheron - works on a farm, thinks the talk of persecution is overblown, despite firsthand experience of Rolf's harrassment.
Suvaris Atheron - complains (understandably) of harrassment, but works in a trusted position for one of the top Nord families. She also gets harrassed by both sides - Ambarys Rendar repeatedly gives her a hard time about her employer.
Belyn Hlaalu - owns (owns!) his own farm outside the city. Thinks the Dunmer should shut up and work.
Luaffyn - has nothing to say about anything.
Idesa Sadri - also works in a trusted position for a Nord family. Nothing to say about discrimination or politics.
Ambarys Rendar - the most vocal anti-Nord. Not just anti-discrimination, he's actively racist against Nords. When asked about murders in Windhelm, he replies "None of that matters to me. Until someone takes a Dunmer, I let Windhelm deal with its own problems."
Malthyr Elenil - unhappy about living in the Gray Quarter and "rough treatment" (unspecified) at the hands of "Ulfric and his lot".
Revyn Sadri - makes no complaints about racism or discrimination.

So that's two votes for "shut up and work", three for "Nords are bastards", and five abstentions. It's hardly an overwhelming cry for liberation.

Is there racism? Oh yes, absolutely. (Although there's no visible foundation to the claim repeated a couple of times that this extends to all non-Nords.) But while Dunmer seem to be obliged to live in the Gray Quarter (if inside the city), they have no problems moving about the city, running market stands alongside Nord vendors, even owning land and employing a Nord labourer. And although there are some very loud Nord racists (Rolf, Elda), most of the important Nord citizens (the Cruel-Seas, the Shatter-Shields, Captain Lonely-Gale) show them no lack of respect or courtesy. Guards will actively direct you to Revyn Sadri's shop.

Finally, there's the guards. A couple of people complain that you can't get them to take an interest in the Gray Quarter's problems - but then, you can't get them to take an interest in a freakin' serial killer who's murdering Nord women, either, so I think that's more about a general culture of apathy than discrimination. The guards see themselves as a military force, not police - they think their job starts and ends with crowd control.

[Errorname]

Ultimately I agree that the Dunmer racism is not as prevalent as you might expect in Windhelm, however what I lean to with that is not "the Stormcloaks aren't actually racist" but instead "Bethesda were not willing to commit"

[Cikomyr2]

Ultimately I agree that the Dunmer racism is not as prevalent as you might expect in Windhelm, however what I lean to with that is not "the Stormcloaks aren't actually racist" but instead "Bethesda were not willing to commit"

I technically do not disagree, but we are here to discuss the game we have, no the game we wished Skyrim was, with better writing and more confidence in their own world.

Like, we can pick and chose the evidence we want if we can all handwave away to "oh Bethesda were incompetent", either in the writing department, or in design department.

Since Bethesda was not willing to commit to racist stormcloaks, then they are not committed racist. There's hint of racism, and most problem can be traced back to Ulfric's incompetent rule of his fief and the inability to ease tension in his backyard while committing all his forces to a war rather than keep order.

Even if there isn't a single observed example outright xenophobic and racist Nord Stormcloak, I 100% accept that they exist. Because.. ya know, people be people. But is Nord Supremacy *the* rallying cry of the Stormcloak? It is, but I think it's more a case that the populist sentiment is extremely anti-elven since the Great War and it has seeped among many other populist messages.

By the way, does anyone believe the Septim Empire has any chance of surviving? Even if they win the civil war, the Emperor has most likely been assassinated, and there's no indication anywhere he has an heir apparent. The man was more than instrumental in the Empire's not-complete defeat at the hands of the Altmeri Dominion.

And I think, overall, his death is just the crown jewel of the pile of deficiencies the Empire is going through.

[Errorname]

I technically do not disagree, but we are here to discuss the game we have, no the game we wished Skyrim was, with better writing and more confidence in their own world.

I think what we're talking about here is a conflict between what the game is presenting and what it's trying to present, but I do think the intent is relatively clear from the game as written.

By the way, does anyone believe the Septim Empire has any chance of surviving? Even if they win the civil war, the Emperor has most likely been assassinated, and there's no indication anywhere he has an heir apparent. The man was more than instrumental in the Empire's not-complete defeat at the hands of the Altmeri Dominion.

Oh the Empire's completely doomed. They'd be lucky to last another decade.

[veti]

I think what we're talking about here is a conflict between what the game is presenting and what it's trying to present, but I do think the intent is relatively clear from the game as written.

I disagree. I think "massive racism" is your headcanon, you want to see evidence of it, and so the fact that there is no such evidence becomes a writing failure. But I think it makes more sense to adjust your opinion of the Stormcloaks to match the evidence that is there.

There's still plausible reasons to hate them, e.g. Ulfric's cult of personality and his undisputed failures as a ruler. But then we have to offset those against similar level failures on the Imperial side. You can reasonably defend either choice, neither is a particularly comfortable fit.

But using "Stormcloaks are massive racists" as a shortcut to a definitive once-for-all answer? - that just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[Errorname]

I disagree. I think "massive racism" is your headcanon, you want to see evidence of it, and so the fact that there is no such evidence becomes a writing failure. But I think it makes more sense to adjust your opinion of the Stormcloaks to match the evidence that is there.

There is textual support to argue that the Stormcloaks are not as racist as they are often claimed to be, but also there are a lot of prominent instances where the game says that they are racist. So, no, I do not think "Stormcloaks are racist" is simply headcanon. You can argue that Stormcloak racism is overstated by their enemies, but even in the most charitable reading it is still very real and very much in place.

[Rynjin]

I disagree. I think "massive racism" is your headcanon

It's not headcanon when it's stated explicitly in the text. We can argue whether it's an informed attribute or not but it is stated that Nords hate elves and the Stormcloaks want "Skyrim for the Nords". They're one step removed from coming out and saying "Elves will not replace us".

If you need a bit more, look to this book which refers to Dunmer as "substandard beings" and uses common anti-immigrant/refugee rhetoric, or this story where a girl makes it clear that her lover being a Dunmer is unacceptable in the eyes of high society.

[veti]

It's not headcanon when it's stated explicitly in the text. We can argue whether it's an informed attribute or not but it is stated that Nords hate elves and the Stormcloaks want "Skyrim for the Nords". They're one step removed from coming out and saying "Elves will not replace us".

If you need a bit more, look to this book which refers to Dunmer as "substandard beings" and uses common anti-immigrant/refugee rhetoric, or this story where a girl makes it clear that her lover being a Dunmer is unacceptable in the eyes of high society.

What Karan writes is "Father would never allow me to marry a commoner, much less a poor Dunmer miner." It's far from clear that "Dunmer" is the deal-breaker of those three words.

Racism is endemic in all factions in Skyrim. I've already talked about Ambarys Rendar. The Thalmor are way bigger racists than any Nords, as a brief conversation (almost inevitably followed by a brief fight) with any of their patrols will remind you. The Forsworn hate the Nords, Dunmer hate the Argonians and vice-versa, the Imperials think they're better than everyone, nobody trusts Khajiit, and the stronghold Orcs won't even talk to you unless you do some dangerous-yet-menial errand to show that you're "their friend" first. Wherever more than about three people of the same race gather together, they will find some common cause against everyone else. The Nordic racism is prominent solely because there are so many Nords in the setting.

A major part of the background storytelling is devoted to the story of Ysgramor's extermination of the Snow Elves, the latter's degradation into the modern Falmer, their equally bitter conflict with the Dwemer, and current mindless hatred of basically everyone. The Argonian invasion of Morrowind, the Great War, the Markarth Incident - basically, almost all the lore that's been added since Oblivion is about either race wars or outright genocide.

Within that "endemic racism" framework, is there really any reason to suppose that the Stormcloaks are systemically "more racist" than everyone else? Are there racist Stormcloaks? - yes, of course, but there are non-racist ones too, and conversely there is racism on the Imperial side as well. But everywhere you go, racial minorities simply aren't particularly downtrodden. The only race that's really widely discriminated against are Khajiit, and the Stormcloaks don't treat them noticeably worse than Imperials do.

[Rynjin]

What Karan writes is "Father would never allow me to marry a commoner, much less a poor Dunmer miner." It's far from clear that "Dunmer" is the deal-breaker of those three words.

It's extremely clear. Commoner = bad. Dunmer = worse. That's just simple sentence construction. "never commoner...much less Dunmer". You can cut oput "poor" and "miner" because those are just different ways of saying "commoner". The Dunmer part is the issue.

Racism is endemic in all factions in Skyrim. I've already talked about Ambarys Rendar. The Thalmor are way bigger racists than any Nords, as a brief conversation (almost inevitably followed by a brief fight) with any of their patrols will remind you. The Forsworn hate the Nords, Dunmer hate the Argonians and vice-versa, the Imperials think they're better than everyone, nobody trusts Khajiit, and the stronghold Orcs won't even talk to you unless you do some dangerous-yet-menial errand to show that you're "their friend" first. Wherever more than about three people of the same race gather together, they will find some common cause against everyone else. The Nordic racism is prominent solely because there are so many Nords in the setting.

It's prominent compared to the factions in the rest of the series as well. The only faction more in-your-face racist have been the Dunmer, though we haven't had a game set in Summerset. At absolute worst the Nords take the bronze medal on this.

A lot of the stuff you mentioned is based around political or cultural reasons. The Forsworn don't "hate the Nords", they hate that people are living on their land. The Orcs aren't racist, they've been persecuted to the point that they have to be very careful about who they trust. The Imperials have a superiority complex about their culture, not unlike the French. Or real world Romans. It's not based around race, it's based around not being part of the Empire.

Within that "endemic racism" framework, is there really any reason to suppose that the Stormcloaks are systemically "more racist" than everyone else? Are there racist Stormcloaks? - yes, of course, but there are non-racist ones too, and conversely there is racism on the Imperial side as well. But everywhere you go, racial minorities simply aren't particularly downtrodden. The only race that's really widely discriminated against are Khajiit, and the Stormcloaks don't treat them noticeably worse than Imperials do.

The...Nords, and by extension the Stormcloaks (who represent the regressive part of Nord society) absolutely treat Khajiit worse than Imperials. you know, what with it being written into law that Khajiit cannot even enter cities, much less live within them. Also pretty sure they can't own property either.

And, again...Dunmer ghetto.

You have to ignore a lot of text, and even more subtext, to miss the fact that the Stormcloaks represent a Nord supremacist movement.

[Cikomyr2]

The...Nords, and by extension the Stormcloaks (who represent the regressive part of Nord society) absolutely treat Khajiit worse than Imperials. you know, what with it being written into law that Khajiit cannot even enter cities, much less live within them. Also pretty sure they can't own property either.

Look man. I like arguing here, but if you just insist on repeating this false fact again and again, and cannot bother to check up on the fact that all holds of Skyrim refuse entry to all Khajit caravaners, i think i am done discussing with you.

[Rynjin]

Look man. I like arguing here, but if you just insist on repeating this false fact again and again, and cannot bother to check up on the fact that all holds of Skyrim refuse entry to all Khajit caravaners, i think i am done discussing with you.

Yes. All holds of Skyrim. The Nord country. Populated by Nords. Who make Nord laws. To benefit Nords.

No other country has these laws. It's almost like Nords have an unusual hatred for Khajiit. And discriminate against them based on race.

[Errorname]

Yes. All holds of Skyrim. The Nord country. Populated by Nords. Who make Nord laws. To benefit Nords.

I mean, many of those holds are Imperial controlled, so it is fair to say that problems common to all holds can't really be said to be solely a Stormcloak problem. Neither side gets a passing grade in terms of how they treat the Khajit.

[Keltest]

I mean, many of those holds are Imperial controlled, so it is fair to say that problems common to all holds can't really be said to be solely a Stormcloak problem. Neither side gets a passing grade in terms of how they treat the Khajit.

I mean, its not like the Imperials actually make the local laws. Officially, theyre lending military support to Elisif, who they consider the legitimate ruler of Skyrim. Its actually something of a point that Tullius is disinterested in ruling or staying in Skyrim longer than he has to.

[veti]

It's prominent compared to the factions in the rest of the series as well. The only faction more in-your-face racist have been the Dunmer, though we haven't had a game set in Summerset. At absolute worst the Nords take the bronze medal on this.

The Dunmer were significantly more racist in Morrowind, and that was at least two major race wars ago at the height of Imperial peace and prosperity. The whole continent has been in largely-race-based turmoil since then. It would be surprising if tolerance and openness hadn't gone sharply downhill most everywhere.

But even after all that, here in Nord Skyrim we see elves still in trusted positions of public authority - stewards, housecarls, priests, teachers. Where were the equivalent humans in Morrowind? And there's no sign that Stormcloaks are any less tolerant than the Imperial faction.

A lot of the stuff you mentioned is based around political or cultural reasons. The Forsworn don't "hate the Nords", they hate that people are living on their land.

They say they hate Nords, I'm just taking them at their word. Madanach, in his dialogue, uses the word "Nords" throughout to designate his enemy.

The Orcs aren't racist, they've been persecuted to the point that they have to be very careful about who they trust.

If racism can be justified by showing there are historical reasons for it, we should be having an entirely different argument.

The Imperials have a superiority complex about their culture, not unlike the French. Or real world Romans. It's not based around race, it's based around not being part of the Empire.

But the Nords, so the Imperials insist, are a part of the Empire. Yet Proventus Avenicci dismisses the whole Dragonborn prophecy as "Nord nonsense", and Tullius doesn't even bother to disguise his disdain for the whole country.

The...Nords, and by extension the Stormcloaks (who represent the regressive part of Nord society)

No. No no no no no. Where do you get this "Stormcloaks represent the regressive part of Nord society" from? Sheer unadulterated Imperial propaganda, that's what that is. It has no basis in observable fact.

And, again...Dunmer ghetto.

There's no Dunmer ghetto in Stormcloak Riften. Two of its most prominent Nord citizens are married to Dunmer, which is two more than you'll find in any of the cosmopolitan Imperial cities. Baalgruf has a Dunmer housecarl, but neither Ulfric nor anyone else even considers that might reflect his choice of sides. The Archmage of Winterhold is a Dunmer, but of all the reasons Nords give for hating the college, race is never mentioned.

Yes, Windhelm has its problems with racial tension. But as the text you cited earlier makes clear, those problems are unique to Windhelm. They go back 200 years, long before "Stormcloaks" were a thing. And very clearly, they are rooted in economics, not ideology.

[Rynjin]

I mean, its not like the Imperials actually make the local laws. Officially, theyre lending military support to Elisif, who they consider the legitimate ruler of Skyrim. Its actually something of a point that Tullius is disinterested in ruling or staying in Skyrim longer than he has to.

Exactly.

And there's no sign that Stormcloaks are any less tolerant than the Imperial faction.

Except all the ones I and others have already mentioned.

They say they hate Nords, I'm just taking them at their word. Madanach, in his dialogue, uses the word "Nords" throughout to designate his enemy.

Those are indeed the people on their land.

If racism can be justified by showing there are historical reasons for it, we should be having an entirely different argument.

The orcs aren't racist at all, reasoned or otherwise. They're isolationist. They do not discriminate based on racial features, they discriminate based on in/out group. This is like saying the women only train cars in Japan are sexist.

But the Nords, so the Imperials insist, are a part of the Empire. Yet Proventus Avenicci dismisses the whole Dragonborn prophecy as "Nord nonsense", and Tullius doesn't even bother to disguise his disdain for the whole country.

Proventus is, indeed, a prejudiced individual. Tullius does not appear to be motivated by racial prejudice, just disdain for those he views as traitors. He's a soldier, through and through. Loyal to the Empire to a fault.

No. No no no no no. Where do you get this "Stormcloaks represent the regressive part of Nord society" from? Sheer unadulterated Imperial propaganda, that's what that is. It has no basis in observable fact.

Their entire platform is built on "returning to the old ways". That is, by definition, regressive.

There's no Dunmer ghetto in Stormcloak Riften.

I've already explained why that is.

Yes, Windhelm has its problems with racial tension. But as the text you cited earlier makes clear, those problems are unique to Windhelm. They go back 200 years, long before "Stormcloaks" were a thing. And very clearly, they are rooted in economics, not ideology.

And Windhelm is...what? Oh yes, the most staunchly traditionalist Nord city and the seat of Stormcloak power. And it seems really convenient that the problems are "economic" in nature yet seem to only affect a singular racial sub-group.

An issue with this discussion is that I cannot draw on the very clear real world parallels at play to illustrate my point, but the talking points you're using are...disturbing in how familiar they are.

[SirKazum]

An issue with this discussion is that I cannot draw on the very clear real world parallels at play to illustrate my point, but the talking points you're using are...disturbing in how familiar they are.

Let me just say, I'm amazed that this discussion hasn't veered into moderator-attracting real-world talk... yet. It has enormous potential for that.

[GloatingSwine]

No other country has these laws. It's almost like Nords have an unusual hatred for Khajiit. And discriminate against them based on race.

We haven't seen any of the rest of the provinces in the fourth era in a game, so we can't say whether those laws are unique or not.

But in other 4e stories we do know that, for example, non-Argonians need a license to enter Lilmoth.

The Elder Scrolls is a series in which casual racism is nonexistent because everyone is into ranked competitive racism instead.

[veti]

The orcs aren't racist at all, reasoned or otherwise. They're isolationist. They do not discriminate based on racial features, they discriminate based on in/out group.

And if you're an orc, you're in. How is that "not racist"?

Proventus is, indeed, a prejudiced individual. Tullius does not appear to be motivated by racial prejudice, just disdain for those he views as traitors.

Specifically - all Nords:

"You people and your damn Jarls."
"You Nords and your bloody sense of honor."
"Don't you Nords put any stock in your own traditions?"
"Well Ulfric, you can't escape from me this time. Any last requests before I send you to... to wherever you people go when you die."

If Ulfric habitually used phrases like "you people" or "you $RACE", you'd be all over it. But he doesn't. Why are you giving Tullius a pass?

Another of his quotes I particularly like: "Without us to keep order, the provinces would fall into barbarism and lawlessness." But you can see for yourself, Stormcloak holds aren't noticeably more barbaric or lawless than Imperial ones. There's no shortage of bandits/etc. in either.

Their entire platform is built on "returning to the old ways". That is, by definition, regressive.

No. Again with the Imperial propaganda. "The old ways" would mean loyalty to the Empire (Alvor: "Skyrim has always been part of the Empire. That doesn't mean I support everything the Empire's been doing lately, but Nords have never been fair-weather friends." Jora: "Talos, who in life was known as Tiber Septim, united Tamriel and founded the Empire.") Loyalty to the Empire, now there's a regressive idea if anything is.

I've already explained why that is.

I've scoured back up through the thread, and I can only imagine you're referring to this:

The corruption being the rleevant part. Maven doesn't believe in Stormcloak ideals, she aligns with the Stormcloaks because she doesn't wanna pay taxes.

... which I didn't address at the time, because frankly I can't see any point at which it touches upon recognisable reality, unless possibly the last five words. Maven doesn't align with the Stormcloaks, she's Imperial through and through, and at least some of Riften's people can see that even before she becomes the Imperial jarl. (Vulwulf Snow-Shod: "That's what happens when you're partners with a corrupt Imperial whore like Maven.") And since when does "corruption" lead to racial harmony and integration? Markarth is just as corrupt as Riften, and almost as bigoted as Windhelm.

In fact, it strikes me that Markarth and Riften might have been designed to be mirror images of each other. They're each the second cities of their respective factions, and the jarls of each seem stunningly oblivious to the fact that their political opponents are also manipulating their local organised crime factions.

But I digress. Your "explanation" of why Riften is racially harmonious is - because it's corrupt? You're going to have to break that down a bit more for me. Besides, now I've got this very distracting image in my mind of Maven Black-Briar as some kind of crusading civil-rights leader, and I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant...

I'll also address this part of your earlier post:

People keep bringing up that last part as if it matters. Bethesda no longer has the balls to have NPCs discriminate based on race and choices. That's it. that's the only reason.

Windhelm is a dirty, mismanaged ****hole on its best day. The non-human races are largely oppressed or absent. Argonians and Khajiit can't even enter the city AT ALL, Dunmer are forced to live in a ghetto, Altmer get by primarily on the privilege of money, and Bosmer and Orcs are entirely absent from the city as I recall.

That's the paradigm the Stormcloaks want everywhere

Except that it's not a policy they implement. Not anywhere. There is no change to the racial mix or treatment of any of the cities when the Stormcloaks take over. And Stormcloak Riften is arguably the most integrated city in the whole country. You can't just write that off as some kind of aberration, because it's their second city. Without Riften there is no "Stormcloak faction", just a single stronghold.

An issue with this discussion is that I cannot draw on the very clear real world parallels at play to illustrate my point, but the talking points you're using are...disturbing in how familiar they are.

If you can't put "real world parallels" out of your mind, that might explain why you're finding it so hard to see what's real in the world we're actually discussing. Maybe the "parallels" aren't as clear as you think.

[Errorname]

I do think it's telling that the Imperial aligned Jarls are in general the more reasonable ones. Maven and Siddgeir are both real pieces of work, but on average the Imperials get the agreeable and semi-competent ones like Balgruuf and Idgrod, where the Stormcloak Jarls tend to be vindictive fools like Skald and Korir, and thd best they get us Laila, who is merely a naïve fool

[Rynjin]

And if you're an orc, you're in. How is that "not racist"?

I already explained how. I don't like repeating myself.

Specifically - all Nords:
If Ulfric habitually used phrases like "you people" or "you $RACE", you'd be all over it. But he doesn't. Why are you giving Tullius a pass?

Mostly because I don't care about Tullius. He is at worst an individual that represents the current regime, and that is a regime we know does not as of currently implement anti-Nord laws (of their own volition). More importantly Tullius is a general, his political power isn't nonexistent but it is limited. Ulfric styles himself as a High King. He wants unlimited rule by might, making his own prejudices much more important as he has thge power to impose them.

Another of his quotes I particularly like: "Without us to keep order, the provinces would fall into barbarism and lawlessness." But you can see for yourself, Stormcloak holds aren't noticeably more barbaric or lawless than Imperial ones. There's no shortage of bandits/etc. in either.

Debatable. I don't feel like doing a bandit headcount to figure out which holds have more, and it would be a little unfair of me to point out that one of the "Stormcloak" cities is essentially owned in its entirety by the Thieves' Guild given the later parts of this discussion.

No. Again with the Imperial propaganda. "The old ways" would mean loyalty to the Empire (Alvor: "Skyrim has always been part of the Empire. That doesn't mean I support everything the Empire's been doing lately, but Nords have never been fair-weather friends." Jora: "Talos, who in life was known as Tiber Septim, united Tamriel and founded the Empire.") Loyalty to the Empire, now there's a regressive idea if anything is.

This makes pretty much zero sense and I have little idea how to go about addressing it. Skyrim has always been a part of the Empire, yes. it has also always had its own culture. One they feel the Empire has eroded. In some ways they are correct.

What the Nords believe, and Ulfric in particular believes, is in rule by might. If we want to go only by pure text, that's all Ulfric and the Stormcloaks stand for. This is Ulfric's only ideal:

Why did you kill the high king?"

"I killed Torygg to prove our wretched condition. How is the High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim, if he can't even defend himself?"

"Some call you a murderer."

"I challenged him in the traditional way, and he accepted. There were many witnesses. No 'murder' was committed. True, he didn't stand a chance against me. But that was precisely the point! He was a puppet-king of the Empire , not a High King of Skyrim. His father before him perhaps, but not Torygg. He was too privileged and too foolish, more interested in entertaining his queen than ruling his country."

And it's where their general oppression of "the lesser races" stems from. They deserve to be oppressed because they're not strong enough to stand up to those big Nord muscles. And, you know, economic superiority over a group of refugees but that's Imperial talk and it's definitely because Nords are the best.

I've scoured back up through the thread, and I can only imagine you're referring to this:



... which I didn't address at the time, because frankly I can't see any point at which it touches upon recognisable reality, unless possibly the last five words. Maven doesn't align with the Stormcloaks, she's Imperial through and through, and at least some of Riften's people can see that even before she becomes the Imperial jarl. (Vulwulf Snow-Shod: "That's what happens when you're partners with a corrupt Imperial whore like Maven.") And since when does "corruption" lead to racial harmony and integration? Markarth is just as corrupt as Riften, and almost as bigoted as Windhelm.

In fact, it strikes me that Markarth and Riften might have been designed to be mirror images of each other. They're each the second cities of their respective factions, and the jarls of each seem stunningly oblivious to the fact that their political opponents are also manipulating their local organised crime factions.

But I digress. Your "explanation" of why Riften is racially harmonious is - because it's corrupt? You're going to have to break that down a bit more for me. Besides, now I've got this very distracting image in my mind of Maven Black-Briar as some kind of crusading civil-rights leader, and I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant...

Riften is a nominally Stormcloak-aligned city, "ruled" by a Stormcloak-aligned Jarl.

But the real power behind the throne is and always was Maven. Who allows the Stormcloak alignment because it's more convenient, as she wins either way. She can align the city with the Stormcloaks using her puppet Jarl and reap the economic benefits to herself...and be completely, legally in the clear whether the Stormcloaks win or lose.

Corruption in and of itself does not lead to racial harmony, but the orchestrator behind said corruption is not a racist, and has no particular ideologically reason to implement racist policies in her city. because all she cares about is money, and anybody can spend that.

Except that it's not a policy they implement. Not anywhere. There is no change to the racial mix or treatment of any of the cities when the Stormcloaks take over. And Stormcloak Riften is arguably the most integrated city in the whole country. You can't just write that off as some kind of aberration, because it's their second city. Without Riften there is no "Stormcloak faction", just a single stronghold.

It's not a policy they implement because A.) Bethesda is lazy and B.) oppression like that takes years to manifest in any case. Their first order of business on taking over a city isn't going to be to declare a pogrom on the non-humans, they have bigger fish to fry.

And yes, Riften is an aberration. Because it is only nominally a Stormcloak city, as you argue yourself. Maven is in charge of Riften, not the Jarl. And she doesn't care about the Stormcloaks. She just wants to benefit from the confusion.

So I'm glad we agree that the Stormcloaks are an absolute joke of a "faction".

If you can't put "real world parallels" out of your mind, that might explain why you're finding it so hard to see what's real in the world we're actually discussing. Maybe the "parallels" aren't as clear as you think.

Yes I am sure Bethesda created whole cloth everything in their universe and were in no way influenced or tainted by locales, cultures, and ideologies form the real world.

[Mr Blobby]

What makes this particular claim more puzzling, to me, is that Ralof says the ambush was sprung "just outside Darkwater Crossing".

I've been to Darkwater Crossing, and it is nowhere near the border.

Another thing that's never addressed is why Ulfric was trying to cross the border. You'd think, as the very-high-profile leader of one faction in a civil war, he'd want to stay in the country.

I think 'near the border' is more important than 'near Darkwater Crossing'. And as to the why... I suspect Ulfric was going to near the border [between Ivarstead and Pale Pass?] to secretly meet up with say, 'a discontented Legion commander', 'Cyrodiili dissidents' or 'overseas Nord sympathisers' - only that it was an Imperial trap; after all Ralof says it was a near-perfect ambush and both Tullius and Elenwen were waiting in Helgen with an axe-man already lined up. You and Lokir simply get swept up in it under a 'kill them all and let God sort it out' mentality from that Imperial Captain.

Why were 'you' there, at the wrong place at the wrong time? It is left fuzzy on purpose, so you can mentally pencil in whatever backstory you'd like. After all, this is basically the same for the start of both Oblivion and Morrowind.

...So I'm glad we agree that the Stormcloaks are an absolute joke of a "faction"...

I personally sign up to the 'while not all Stormcloaks are racists, all racists are Stormcloaks' theory. And a lot of Stormcloaks are xenophobic - when it comes down to it, perhaps the only folks they don't have a beef with is Redguards and that's mainly due to their relative non-presence. The 'worst' treatment is perhaps to the Orcs; a group who were in Skyrim at least as long as the Nords and culturally most similar [Ulfric's claim to be High King would seem 'legitimate' to a tribal Orc, for example], respecters of raw power, often-worshippers of a 'banned' deity, their mer-pariah status means Nords don't even twig they are elves and with the loss of Orsimum [again] would feel keenly what it means to 'lose your homeland'.

They're the most likely candidates for a Stormcloak alliance as a group, but there's zero effort to recruit/tempt them. Which is why they are a joke of a faction; their 'Nord for the Nords' xenophobia is so strong they cannot see themselves offering Orcs 'houseroom' because they want it all themselves. It's a faction consisting of the overweening ambition of one guy and a wider circle of the bigoted, the greedy, the resentful and the stupid.

[Cikomyr2]

I would claim that "all racists are Stormcloak" to be true for all NORD racists.

Imperial, Breton, Redguard, Dunmner, Altmer, Orcsmer, Bosners, Argonians, Khajit.. all of them that could hold racist sentiments would join the Imperials just to put down these uppity Nords.


Btw, has it ever been stated how long it has been between Ulfric's duel with High King Torygg and the opening? We know its during the same year, but the opening of the game is set in fall. So it could have been months.

Its just that ive been thinking: the one thing we know is different in Solitude since that fateful event is that General Tullius showed up to be the imperial governor of the province basically at the same time as we show up in Skyrim. So it could be understood he recently took command of Solitude's garrison.

Which means Roggvir's execution was probably done explicitly on his order. Probably as part of the big propaganda point Tulius wants to push on the Nords that High King Torygg was "murdered", therefore anyone who remotely aided him is guilty of treason.

If Roggvir's fate had been determined at the time of the murder, why wait until after Tulius shows up to execute him?

[Mr Blobby]

Well, yeah. A Dark Elf racist isn't gonna sign up for the Stormcloaks, are they?

Anyway, Roggvir's execution is tagged to happen when you first arrive at Solitude. Depending on what kind of game you're playing, that could be a long time [current playthough; Day 45 and I've just got to Falkreath]. I think the only thing which can be remotely 'assumed' is that the delay was perhaps mainly down to arguments to how complicit/culpable the man was.

[Grim Portent]

If I were to come up with a reason Roggvir would be sentenced to death so long after the fact, it's possible Elisif has been grieving too much to perform even a perfunctory trial and pass sentence until lately, and by sheer coincidence she recovered enough to do so shortly before our arrival, resulting in Roggvir's quantum execution always taking place when we show up in the city. In this case the magnitude of what Roggvir is being accused of would make it important for Elisif to be the one to pass sentence as opposed to Falk Firebeard doing so on her behalf.

Or there's been some kind of legal stuff behind the scenes to determine if his execution is even legal by Nord and/or Imperial law that got resolved shortly before we get there.

[Keltest]

If I were to come up with a reason Roggvir would be sentenced to death so long after the fact, it's possible Elisif has been grieving too much to perform even a perfunctory trial and pass sentence until lately, and by sheer coincidence she recovered enough to do so shortly before our arrival, resulting in Roggvir's quantum execution always taking place when we show up in the city. In this case the magnitude of what Roggvir is being accused of would make it important for Elisif to be the one to pass sentence as opposed to Falk Firebeard doing so on her behalf.

Or there's been some kind of legal stuff behind the scenes to determine if his execution is even legal by Nord and/or Imperial law that got resolved shortly before we get there.

I suspect it was probably delayed by debate over the legitimacy of Ulfric's challenging of Torygg. If he was genuinely the king, or at least acting within legal bounds for the terms of the duel, then obeying his commands, opening the gate and otherwise not stopping him isnt a crime.

[Mr Blobby]

Did Roggvir even know that Ulfric had killed the High King as he let him out? I don't believe you never get an IC answer to that; but it's important to establish guilt [if he didn't, he was 'simply doing his job' and thus innocent].

It's also quite plausable that he simply was not a priority; that to a certain extent he was thrown in prison and forgotten about. Hell, if he lasts for many a month, it's possible that the major folks had believed he'd been executed ages ago and 'they'd simply missed the memo' on it.

[Batcathat]

While I generally think the Imperial side is the better choice (mainly for pragmatic reasons, as I don't think either side comes off great from a moral standpoint), I think they mostly look very hypocritical in regards to the fight between Ulfric and the High King. I wonder if they would've considered it murder if Torygg had won?

[Cikomyr2]

Did Roggvir even know that Ulfric had killed the High King as he let him out? I don't believe you never get an IC answer to that; but it's important to establish guilt [if he didn't, he was 'simply doing his job' and thus innocent].

It's also quite plausable that he simply was not a priority; that to a certain extent he was thrown in prison and forgotten about. Hell, if he lasts for many a month, it's possible that the major folks had believed he'd been executed ages ago and 'they'd simply missed the memo' on it.

No. There is no way he would have known.

Retelling of the events by all parties had Ulfric beeline for the exit of the city while everyone was in shock at what happened. Nobody challenged him on the way out, so Roggvir did his duty by letting a Jarl leave the city since he was not ordered to hold him.

It had nothing to do with Roggvir's allegiance, or the legitimacy of the duel. He was doing his job.

I still think the whole thing could be seen as an authoritarian move by Tulius. Finding a scapegoat the people could denounce publicly.

Maybe even check who sympathized with him so he could ID the Stormcloak sympathizers.

[Keltest]

No. There is no way he would have known.

Retelling of the events by all parties had Ulfric beeline for the exit of the city while everyone was in shock at what happened. Nobody challenged him on the way out, so Roggvir did his duty by letting a Jarl leave the city since he was not ordered to hold him.

It had nothing to do with Roggvir's allegiance, or the legitimacy of the duel. He was doing his job.

I still think the whole thing could be seen as an authoritarian move by Tulius. Finding a scapegoat the people could denounce publicly.

Maybe even check who sympathized with him so he could ID the Stormcloak sympathizers.

At least some Imperial accounts indicate that Ulfric was in fact being pursued by the guards. I don't believe Ulfric comments on it either way.