OOTS #1299 - The Discussion Thread

[Tzardok]

I don't think the 3.5e MM even has listed spells known for dragons. Same for feats or skill ranks. You're kinda expected to customize them since they're probably a miniboss encounter at bare minimum.

Wouldn't be the first time someone looked at the Pathfinder SRD and thought it was the 3.5 SRD.

[Kardwill]

I don't think the 3.5e MM even has listed spells known for dragons. Same for feats or skill ranks. You're kinda expected to customize them since they're probably a miniboss encounter at bare minimum.

The first time I had to fully stat an adult dragon was also the very last game I ever DM'd in D&D3. ^^
Never.
Again.

[Ruck]

I haven't been there for a few years, but it's a lovely town up close as well. People hating on the city who haven't been there are weird.
On social media I once had someone tell me downtown Denver was a hell-hole because politics stuff. I said "Hey, I walk down the 16th Street Mall twice every day as part of my commute, and I've never been bothered at all". Didn't matter to them; they'd been told Denver was full of crime, so therefore, my life experiences didn't matter.

Yeah... probably against the rules to get into the deeper reasons people think and act like that. I haven't been to San Francisco in a long time but I had a nice visit both times I was, and there's a lot of great stuff to see, especially just walking around. Downtown Denver is fine, too, although (and for the first time ever, for me) I prefer living outside of the city and closer to the mountains.

Thanks. Even if I don't get a reply back from the guy, I'm glad to know there's at least one person who's read the comment and thought about it. That's enough for me to know it wasn't a complete waste of time, so again thank you.

It was a very well-considered response.

Face palm time. For Calder, it is, and that's what matters. You are free to follow your own norms and customs.

Yeah, that's literally covered in the part of the sentence you cut off:

and we are supposed to take Calder using it that way as a sign of arrogance and dismissiveness.

[Provengreil]

Great, now we either have Sideshow Lord Torath, or Peelee is going to want use-credit.

- M

I'm sure the Germans have a word for this problem.

[woweedd]

There's ... history behind oddities of the English language.

And more on-topic, I feel that Calder definitely is more than just a "see how mighty the heroes are now" battle. Though he's certainly doing that, too.

Honestly, I think it gets a bad rep. Other languages have justvas many edge casers, English speakers just don't hear anoit those, we're not special.

[Peelee]

I'm sure the Germans have a word for this problem.

And that word is "Peeleeistgroßartig", i assume?

[pendell]

10 hours well-spent, my friend. I thought something fell over in my kitchen last night, but it must've been the mic drop that came with your post.



The spell lists that the Monster Manual has for dragons is just what they usually have at their disposal. There's nothing saying that they can't choose to master different spells.

And frankly, if a dragon is even remotely competent, they won't stick exclusively to spells of their own element. Anybody who's actively hunting a dragon is either an idiot, or has taken precautions against what sort of threats they expect the dragon to whip out.
If I'm going to be fighting a red dragon, I'm going to be using whatever fire resistance I can get my hands on so I don't get nuked by its breath weapon or die to whatever fire-based hazards its lair is likely filled with. I'm not going to be expecting it to whip out a bunch of lightning, acid, or (especially) cold damage.

That being said, there's always a possibility that Calder does have actual class levels on top of his natural HD, but we have no way of knowing that for sure unless Rich comes out and says so.

Check me on this, but fighting an adult dragon in D&D is much like fighting a wizard. A wizard which doesn't have the usual balancing issue of being squishy but also has a massive size, a claw/claw/bite combo, a breath weapon, high resistance to just about everything, and a sizeable hit point total. You've got to prepare both to fight a wizard or sorcerer with an unknown spell list, but you also have to fight a very large, dangerous monster type as well.

Which implies that the battle shouldn't happen at all if we can't find some way to do what O-chul did, and learn in advance what the dragon's known spells are. If you have to go in unprepared, expect casualties at least.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Unoriginal]

Regarding Calder's size:

The only reference we have for a Red Dragon's size is the Empress of Blood, who had a head approximately one Thog long (not counting the horns) in her pre-eat-to-get-bigger days.

Since Calder's head is approximately two Haleys long or two Vaarsavii long without the horns. Since each size D&D size category is the double of the preceding one, we can estimate with some certainty that Calder is one size category higher than the Flashback Empress.

[danielxcutter]

Check me on this, but fighting an adult dragon in D&D is much like fighting a wizard. A wizard which doesn't have the usual balancing issue of being squishy but also has a massive size, a claw/claw/bite combo, a breath weapon, high resistance to just about everything, and a sizeable hit point total. You've got to prepare both to fight a wizard or sorcerer with an unknown spell list, but you also have to fight a very large, dangerous monster type as well.

Which implies that the battle shouldn't happen at all if we can't find some way to do what O-chul did, and learn in advance what the dragon's known spells are. If you have to go in unprepared, expect casualties at least.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Not really like a wizard, since they cast exactly like a sorcerer - though some varieties (especially the stronger ones) can pick from the Cleric list as well.

[Peelee]

Not really like a wizard, since they cast exactly like a sorcerer

Which are, of course, better.

[Kardwill]

Regarding Calder's size:

The only reference we have for a Red Dragon's size is the Empress of Blood, who had a head approximately one Thog long (not counting the horns) in her pre-eat-to-get-bigger days.

Since Calder's head is approximately two Haleys long or two Vaarsavii long without the horns. Since each size D&D size category is the double of the preceding one, we can estimate with some certainty that Calder is one size category higher than the Flashback Empress.

Another good comparison is the Ancient Black Dragon. Especially since in #628, we have her holding down V as a convenient point of comparison with Calder holding V in #1298

V is about the size of the ABD's head, or one of her arms. Calder's arm and head look like they are 1,5 to 1,8 V long. He looks far bigger on the shot with Haley, but this could be a perspective trick?


So, since Mature to Ancient Black Dragons are Huge, it'd put Calder on, what, either G or the extreme upper range of H?

Although those comparisons have limits due to the artstyle. The young black dragon doesn't look much smaller than his mom, for example (really smaller torso and shorter neck, sure, but head and arms about 1 Elan long in #183)

[Unoriginal]

Another good comparison is the Ancient Black Dragon. Especially since in #628, we have her holding down V as a convenient point of comparison with Calder holding V in #1298

V is about the size of the ABD's head, or one of her arms. Calder's arm and head look like they are 1,5 to 1,8 V long. He looks far bigger on the shot with Haley, but this could be a perspective trick?


So, since Mature to Ancient Black Dragons are Huge, it'd put Calder on, what, either G or the extreme upper range of H?

Although those comparisons have limits due to the artstyle. The young black dragon doesn't look much smaller than his mom, for example (really smaller torso and shorter neck, sure, but head and arms about 1 Elan long in #183)

Given how Black Dragons age, it would be entirely possible for both mother and son to be in the same size category.

Was the age category of either ever stated somewhere?

[bunsen_h]

The spell lists that the Monster Manual has for dragons is just what they usually have at their disposal. There's nothing saying that they can't choose to master different spells.

And frankly, if a dragon is even remotely competent, they won't stick exclusively to spells of their own element. Anybody who's actively hunting a dragon is either an idiot, or has taken precautions against what sort of threats they expect the dragon to whip out.
If I'm going to be fighting a red dragon, I'm going to be using whatever fire resistance I can get my hands on so I don't get nuked by its breath weapon or die to whatever fire-based hazards its lair is likely filled with. I'm not going to be expecting it to whip out a bunch of lightning, acid, or (especially) cold damage.

That being said, there's always a possibility that Calder does have actual class levels on top of his natural HD, but we have no way of knowing that for sure unless Rich comes out and says so.

The issue being discussed wasn't that he (a red dragon, inclined to fire) was using Polar Ray, but that it was being cast from his eyes. Whether that was just a matter of artistic license for extra coolness (no pun intended), or use of the Ocular Spell feat. Since Calder's other spell was cast from his hand/claw, that gives a bit more weight to the argument for his having used the feat (no pun intended) for the Polar Ray. And that has implications for his casting level.

[Kardwill]

Given how Black Dragons age, it would be entirely possible for both mother and son to be in the same size category.

Was the age category of either ever stated somewhere?

There was a joke in-comic about the son being a Young Adult, so I think we can safely put him there?
For the mother, I don't remember if her "Ancient Black Dragon" name comes from the comic. Anyway, I think we can safely put her at least as a Mature Adult, which are also Huge (But "Huge" covers a lot of ground between the "somewhat huge" MA and the "real huge" Ancient. Size categories are not one-size-fits-all)

[The MunchKING]

Qa'ar thought she was Ancient.

[Space Sorceress]

Which are, of course, better.

REPRESENT!

*does secret Spontaneous Caster handshake*

[Mordar]

why does english DO this

Gate keeping. Also, intentionally increasing opportunities to make fun of each other. And perpetuating jobs for little old ladies with rulers and whip-strike forearms.

I'm sure the Germans have a word for this problem.

And that word is "Peeleeistgroßartig", i assume?

Well, that's partly right.

Sideshowdenfreude might be good too. So sayeth the Muntz.

- M

[Peelee]

REPRESENT!

*does secret Spontaneous Caster handshake*

I love that all sorcerers know exactly what you're talking about.

Well, that's partly right.

Sideshowdenfreude might be good too. So sayeth the Muntz.

- M

Super!

[drazen]

I find this interesting. Perhaps Calder is in someway the leverage Durkon needs to convince Redcloak for his help. Since the Order of the Scribble ran into him, presumably it was on their quest to seal the rifts. Perhaps Calder has some knowledge of the Rifts and/or Snarl that could help sway Redcloak? What that would be I don't know since most of the relevant info is only known to the gods and what Thor has relayed to Durkon. But as an evil Dragon he would have no reason to side with the Order of the Stick (other than the sparing of his life) and thus maybe that is how his surrender is negotiated. Essentially, he has info and/or the "negotiating position" to help with Redcloak.

Or maybe it is just a cool fight as a set piece. It would be a shame for the dungeon to be hyped up for so long and see very little of it. For example, imo, it is a bit disappointing we didn't see Girard's Ziggurat at its prime fully illusioned.

Finally as the super longshot (since it wouldn't really fit into the themes of the comic), Calder is a mindbender as stated by Serini. Mayhaps he mind bends Redcloak into helping seal the rifts.

One random encounter between Plot Point A and Plot Point B, since the Owlbear incident on the Southern Plains. The bug riding slavers in the desert are another example. A non-random encounter may be substituted, such as the Crystal Golem, the frost giants, or the vampire spawn in the tunnel outside the Temple of Thor.

Presumably Calder's "endless waking nightmare" will lead to some discussions with Serini. This probably isn't a party that can work well with a hypnotic dragon, considering how absymally poorly they generally fare against mind control magic.

Right now it looks like he is held prone by a dinosaur and everyone is going to town on the pile of hit points. If being held stops his flames, claws, and tail, he's likely to be a corpse soon.

Maybe V will stop it when Calder is incapacitated but not dead as part of the whole penance deal (save a dragon vs. all the dragons they killed)? Otherwise it does seem like more of a set piece to me.

But hey, I'm not the author, so who knows!

[Doug Lampert]

One random encounter between Plot Point A and Plot Point B, since the Owlbear incident on the Southern Plains. The bug riding slavers in the desert are another example. A non-random encounter may be substituted, such as the Crystal Golem, the frost giants, or the vampire spawn in the tunnel outside the Temple of Thor.

I can't believe you failed to mention comic 145 where they not only have one random encounter on the way to the star-metal, but Vaarsuvious explains that all journies have exactly one random encounter.

[Lord Torath]

Das Halflingfrau

No.
I before E, except after C, or when sounding like A as in neighbor and weigh ... and the exceptions are of coursed raised up and illustrated.

Weird, isn't it?
Spelling that word wrongly, or incorrectly, has nothing to do with dyslexia.
It's an incredibly frequent spelling mistake. See also leisure... I mean, is it a lee-zhur suit or a Lazer Suit?
I get that you were going for a laugh, but you forgot the blue text

I always append "and in weird words like 'weird' " after the "neighbors and weigh".

Peelee can have the use credit. I was only piling on afterword.

[pearl jam]

I think that weird originally had a pronunciation that was less of an exception, but became an exception due to its pronunciation shifting.

[Provengreil]

I think that weird originally had a pronunciation that was less of an exception, but became an exception due to its pronunciation shifting.

You'd think, right? but no actually, the only thing about the word that didn't change was its pronunciation. It grew from Wyrd, which dealt less with the strange and was more about fate or destiny, was a noun in most uses, obviously spelled differently, and has the same pronunciation the whole time.

Weird, eh?

[drazen]

I can't believe you failed to mention comic 145 where they not only have one random encounter on the way to the star-metal, but Vaarsuvious explains that all journies have exactly one random encounter.

I thought I did when I said Owlbear incident, but, oops, now that you point me at it, V's explanation was after a battle with ogres, not an owlbear. I stand corrected.

I wasn't being arrogantly internet wrong. I was just being too internet lazy to check if I was remembering correctly. :P

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: I have removed a couple dozen posts from early in this thread that were rules violating or engaging with rules violating comments. So there's probably some oddness in the way the conversation reads now. Sorry about that.

Also, please keep it civil in here and report anything that appears to be a rule violation, whether it's an inappropriate topic, returned banned poster, or flaming/trolling.

[Amarsir]

I believe an artist can portray something as acceptable, or even portray it as something good, and still not be advocating for it.

Hey,

Really good summary of Elan. I never thought about his interaction with the party in that depth, but I will forevermore see that planning vs. improvisation angle.

Moreover than that though, I want to applaud this quote. Artists should explore different points of view. Different from their audience's and even from their own. Having an arena of ideas is how we grow as a society.

[Liquor Box]

Another good comparison is the Ancient Black Dragon. Especially since in #628, we have her holding down V as a convenient point of comparison with Calder holding V in #1298

V is about the size of the ABD's head, or one of her arms. Calder's arm and head look like they are 1,5 to 1,8 V long. He looks far bigger on the shot with Haley, but this could be a perspective trick?


So, since Mature to Ancient Black Dragons are Huge, it'd put Calder on, what, either G or the extreme upper range of H?

Although those comparisons have limits due to the artstyle. The young black dragon doesn't look much smaller than his mom, for example (really smaller torso and shorter neck, sure, but head and arms about 1 Elan long in #183)

I think you are placing too much emphasis on visual estimates of size here.

As you point out, there is a significant difference in the size of V relative to Calder's head. In the first and third panel, V looks about as long as Calder's head, wheras in the two panels where Calder is gripping V, V appears less long than Calder's head. This might be because of perspective (the relative nearness of V and the head to our viewpoint), or simply the art varying because the Giant isn't intending to suggest size in the detail we need for the assessment you want to make.

If it is different perspectives, there's no reason to think that the pictures where V appears smaller are more accurate than those where V appears bigger. If anything the opposite, because we know Calder is holding V in his claw which is further from our viewpoint than his head is - meaning that any forced perspective is going to make V seem smaller than the head.

In addition, V looks about the same size as Calder's head in the first panel of 1297. Hayley is similarly inconsistent, looking smaller than the head when Calder threatens to bite her in 1298, but about the same size as his head in earlier frames of 1298, and in 1296.

[Doug Lampert]

I thought I did when I said Owlbear incident, but, oops, now that you point me at it, V's explanation was after a battle with ogres, not an owlbear. I stand corrected.

I wasn't being arrogantly internet wrong. I was just being too internet lazy to check if I was remembering correctly. :P

That makes sense. The owlbear was on the way from Azure City to the Oracle IIRC. There have been a lot of minor encounters to keep straight.

There were the ogres and dirt farmers while travelling with Miko toward Azure City, and orc island could be considered a random encounter while looking for a place to take in the Azure city refugees (Banjulu becoming the orcs' god and settling things with a pie eating contest was certainly random enough for me).

They thought that the scags were a random encounter, but it turns out they were part of the Kubuto plot, the paladins thought Oona was a random encounter, but it turns out she's part of TE latest set of minions.

Most of their encounters advance the plot in one way or another, but even so, they have lots of more or less random encounters and plenty of their foes are defeated and never seen again. Do we really expect great significance and a dramatic return for the Furkini menace, or Curly the vampire, or the spiked chain wielding half-ogre; on the other hand, Trigak will of course be back. He got dramatic musical cues and all.

[Peelee]

That makes sense. The owlbear was on the way from Azure City to the Oracle IIRC.

I wonder what the owlbear wanted to ask.

[KorvinStarmast]

You'd think, right? but no actually, the only thing about the word that didn't change was its pronunciation. It grew from Wyrd, which dealt less with the strange and was more about fate or destiny, was a noun in most uses, obviously spelled differently, and has the same pronunciation the whole time. Weird, eh?

As the White Wolf might say: Wyrd! (I wonder who gets that reference?)