OOTS #1299 - The Discussion Thread

[Emperor Time]

To be fair, “polymorphed Allosaurus” isn’t exactly that high up on the priority list most of the time.

Good point but still he should have known that only having one brainwashed ally might not be enough to win against this party.

[Raven777]

It means the Order would rather have Haley fly past a dragon and pick up a junior apprentice than ask the member of the team who can cast Greater Dispel Magic to do so.

V spent their turn getting knocked prone in the first panel, then spending a move action to get up and another move action to get out of the dragon's reach and possibly Sunny's Antimagic Field in the fifth panel. No time or even possibility for them to cast a spell this round.

[Kardwill]

I did have a question whether or not Bloodfeast chomping on Calder's neck would prevent the dragon's fire-breathing ability from functioning.

The rules don't speak about it, but they don't say an Allosaurus crushing your throat prevents you to speak either, and yet it just happened.
For that kind of thing, you would ask your GM's ruling. That's one of the key advantage of TTRPGs over CRPGs : Tabletop has an actual thinking human acting as a storyteller/referee, to adjudicate edge cases like this one.

Personally, I would totally rule in favor of my players in such a case, and block the Dragon's breath attack, at least as long as they can maintain pressure/grapple on its neck. It's not every day a player manages to strangle a dragon.
But other DMs might rule otherwise.

And I don't know, Serini has been conspicuously absent during the battle, and Roy did want to make a deal before the fight. Calder is probably very intelligent and might be able to tell they're not Serini's longtime allies. A deal might still be on the table after the submission. It does seem more in character than just killing him (especially now that he can barely defend himself).

Well, Roy was eager to negociate BEFORE Calder tried to murder them just because they were not grovelling enough, and before he learnt that Calder was a slaver mindbending cultleader. He might not feel as diplomatic when the fight that the dragon started turns in the Order's favor.

On the other hand, Battlefield Arguments and Last Round Negociation are kinda Roy's signature feats. If Calder attempts to negociate, it would feel off for Roy to flatly say "no" and simply cut down the dragon.

[Shining Wrath]

Alternately, the fall seems to have cracked the ground around the containment circle, so if Calder can get free, he might be able to flee back out of the dungeon. Running into Team Evil to complicate things more?

The rules don't speak about it, but they don't say an Allosaurus crushing your throat prevents you to speak either, and yet it just happened.
For that kind of thing, you would ask your GM's ruling. That's one of the key advantage of TTRPGs over CRPGs : Tabletop has an actual thinking human acting as a storyteller/referee, to adjudicate edge cases like this one.

Personally, I would totally rule in favor of my players in such a case, and block the Dragon's breath attack, at least as long as they can maintain pressure/grapple on its neck. It's not every day a player manages to strangle a dragon.
But other DMs might rule otherwise.




Well, Roy was eager to negociate BEFORE Calder tried to murder them just because they were not grovelling enough, and before he learnt that Calder was a slaver mindbending cultleader. He might not feel as diplomatic when the fight that the dragon started turns in the Order's favor.

On the other hand, Battlefield Arguments and Last Round Negociation are kinda Roy's signature feats. If Calder attempts to negociate, it would feel off for Roy to flatly say "no" and simply cut down the dragon.

Rule Of Cool says that if the party can choke a dragon, they can prevent spellcasting and breath weapons. Because who has hands big enough to choke a dragon? Most parties don't have an Allosaurus close at hand.

I think Roy's negotiations will be "Usually I'd talk to you, but I tried that earlier and you tried to incinerate me. You don't get a second chance. Belkar?" Belkar: lots of stabbing.

[BurlewContact]

V spent their turn getting knocked prone in the first panel, then spending a move action to get up and another move action to get out of the dragon's reach and possibly Sunny's Antimagic Field in the fifth panel. No time or even possibility for them to cast a spell this round.

Not talking about V. I’m talking about Elan. Which the Order would know if they didn’t marginalise, discriminate and abuse him. Tarquin was right, Elan deserves better

[Shining Wrath]

- V is prone, right next to a Dragon fighting an Allosaurus, and in the middle of an antimagic field. They're kinda busy right now, and Haley can't pick them up, since that would dispel her Flight spell. On the other hand, Minrah can cast her spell right now. That round probably saved BF from being polymophed back to a lizard (and instantly killed by the dragon).

- Would you rather have V burning one of his few 6th level spells (Greater dispell, as you suggested), or have the new girl do the same with a 1st level spell (protection from evil)?

- Roy, Haley and Minrah already discussed the plan while V was captured. They seized the first opportunity to spring the plan. Again, that gains them time to act before Calder could shout an order.

So, using Minrah was the right call, both from a tactical and spell-economy point of view. Bloodfeast would be dead if Roy, haley and Minrah had waited for V to get out of the AMF.

BC, as explained later, wanted Elan to do the job. The point of "Level 6 spell slot versus Level 1" still holds, though. Also Elan would have to stop buffing via song to cast a spell ("Hit, hit, hit the mean old dragon!").

[danielxcutter]

Does it even affect them in the AMF?

[Space Sorceress]

Going to the comic, I'm really surprised Serini's not getting in on the dogpile against the grappled, easy to sneak-attack prey. Seems like it should be releasing all sorts of dopamine to her.

lol yeah I'm hoping the next comic is Serini showing us exactly what an Epic Rogue can do in this situation

[Lheticus]

I'd agree though it is possible that Team Evil find the corpse and reanimate and serves a narrative function that way.

I'm in your camp on this one, I think. Possibly Bloodfeast will have a rematch.

[Kardwill]

I'm in your camp on this one, I think. Possibly Bloodfeast will have a rematch.

A big zombie dragon isn't that much of a threat, though. Cool looking, sure, but unless I'm missing something it's just a big HP sponge with a big-but-slow attack. Nowhere near Calder's raw power.

[Fitzclowningham]

Does anyone know whether the effects of a Weapon of Legacy would be affected by an AMF? I was hoping to see a lot of green when Roy finally got to hit Calder

[fuschiawarrior]

Plot twist: Calder fell on Serini just like this.

[ozmar]

EDIT since you clarified you were talking about Elan (my b) - isn't it best to have him stab Calder while making quips (or buff the other people who are hitting Calder, assuming Bard songs can't be AMF'd), and keep his Greater Dispel Magic on standby? They might need to fight Xykon later, and Elan can likely do more damage in melee than Minrah can. And buffing everyone else who's in melee would almost DEFINITELY do more damage overall, too...

Elan can run out of spell slots, but he can't run out of sword or song. And buffing Bloodfeast's damage too seems really mean, besides.

Greater Dispel Magic is a 6th-level spell (5th-level Bard) that has a chance of failure.

Protection from Evil is a 1st-level spell that is guaranteed to succeed.

Having Minrah free Sunny is just good tactics.

-Ozmar the Rules Lawyer

[Provengreil]

Good point but still he should have known that only having one brainwashed ally might not be enough to win against this party.

You underestimate the critical flaw of most dragons: Pride. They only back down when it's far too late.

[hungrycrow]

To be fair Elan excluded himself from that meeting to hang out with Sunny. Elan got mistreated a LOT in the past and the group's been doing better, but Elan's still Elan. He's pretty hard to work with under the best circumstances, and Elan's Greater Dispel would be the least optimal thing he could do here. Elan is boosting their damage with a song since that's not a magical effectand his caster level was too low to pass the dispel check since he's multiclassing. He's most effective when dispelling buffs from potions or wands, not from a high level dragon.

Going to the comic, I'm really surprised Serini's not getting in on the dogpile against the grappled, easy to sneak-attack prey. Seems like it should be releasing all sorts of dopamine to her.

Also V knowing when they're out of their depth is the greatest. I'm just concerned that Roy and Durkon look ROUGH. They need some healing when all this is done.

Inspire Courage is supernatural, so I believe it doesn't work while everyone else is in the AMF. Also I think it doesn't work on Roy while Mindblank is up?

Serini might jump in next comic, but she might also just not want to get into melee with a dragon. Even surrounded he'll be formidable if he can get rid of Bloodfeast, and he might decide to put everything into killing her if it's an option.

[BurlewContact]

To be fair Elan excluded himself from that meeting to hang out with Sunny. Elan got mistreated a LOT in the past and the group's been doing better, but Elan's still Elan. He's pretty hard to work with under the best circumstances, and Elan's Greater Dispel would be the least optimal thing he could do here. Elan is boosting their damage with a song since that's not a magical effectand his caster level was too low to pass the dispel check since he's multiclassing. He's most effective when dispelling buffs from potions or wands, not from a high level dragon.

Elan has CL16 minimum. I’d say he has as much chance as V does.

But the people who are talking about “the most optimal action” are missing the point. The point is the impact on the real world. Elan excludes himself from the meeting because he didn’t feel confident attending. The first instinct of the Order SHOULD be to adjust the meeting to accommodate Elan’s anxiety and impaired following ability and make him feel comfortable attending. Anything else is CRIMINAL work practices. Instead Elan is told the meeting is optional and because of this he missed out on valuable CPD so that Minrah of all people has a better understanding of the big picture team capabilities than a founding member. Who remembers when Elan was ordered by V to run a mile to get Durkon to unpetify Haley when he could have Song of Freedom’d her out himself? Clearly no one. It’s never been acknowledged in comic and the Order are letting history repeat.

But they are fictional. It doesn’t matter what they do. What matters is that Rich Burlew, a person in the real world, is advocating for criminal work practices and portraying them in comic as acceptable. OOTS has a big reach amongst neurodiverse people and people who work with, live with and employ neurodiverse people. In that context, such behaviour would be criminal and Rich is portraying it as acceptable.

Elan’s certainly not getting a happy ending in a workplace where your employer shouts at you that you don’t count and then continues to treat you as second class without consequence.

[KorvinStarmast]

{Scrubbed}

Why burn a level 6 or level 5 slot when you can get the job done with a level 1 slot?

Tarquin was right, Elan deserves better

Elan ran the party into the Serini/Beholder trap.

But of course given he was at the meeting where everyone shared their character sheets his team know too.
Oh wait. The Order excluded him from that

No, he excused himself to go and play baseball with Sunny.

- Would you rather have V burning one of his few 6th level spells (Greater dispell, as you suggested), or have the new girl do the same with a 1st level spell (protection from evil)?

- Roy, Haley and Minrah already discussed the plan while V was captured. They seized the first opportunity to spring the plan. Again, that gains them time to act before Calder could shout an order.

How dare the Order execute a plan?

So, using Minrah was the right call, both from a tactical and spell-economy point of view.

How dare Roy think tactically?

It's a good use of resource to put Minrah on this mission.

Plus it is national woman's month, or something like that. Lean into it, Sister!

Also V knowing when they're out of their depth is the greatest. I'm just concerned that Roy and Durkon look ROUGH. They need some healing when all this is done.

And there's a bard hanging around ...

EDIT: just read your rant. How do you feel about Bandana?

Just to let you know: you are in the running for this month's "least charitable take on a comic strip" award.

[Tzardok]

He actually did yeah. Does Dispel Magic et. al work on SLAs? I know they don’t work on supernatural abilities.

They do. A SLA can be dispelled, but not counterspelled. A SU can be neither, a spell both. All three are useless in Antimagic.

The rules don't speak about it, but they don't say an Allosaurus crushing your throat prevents you to speak either, and yet it just happened.

Actually, they do: the SRD says that you can prevent an opponent you have pinned from talking

Elan can run out of spell slots, but he can't run out of sword or song. And buffing Bloodfeast's damage too seems really mean, besides.

Correction: Elan can run out of song. Bardic Music has a limited number of per day uses.

Does anyone know whether the effects of a Weapon of Legacy would be affected by an AMF? I was hoping to see a lot of green when Roy finally got to hit Calder

Yes, of course they are affected.

[BurlewContact]

Elan ran the party into the Serini/Beholder trap.

Elan did this because he failed a will save. He failed a will save because V and Roy, the two members who made a successful will save on screen are hogging the mind blanks. Another example of bad work practices hurting Elan on purpose.

[BurlewContact]

Let's see, if I have mind blank, I protect the two people with the highest intelligence, one of whom is the party leader, one of whom is the irreplaceable arcane spell caster.

Your take is not valid.

I made a take that explains my larger issue in post 55. But in general it’s good practice to shore up weaknesses not enhance others strengths. At least when you’re dealing with abjurations.

And that’s excluding whether ROY deserves to be leader.

[Provengreil]

Elan has CL16 minimum. I’d say he has as much chance as V does.

But the people who are talking about “the most optimal action” are missing the point. The point is the impact on the real world. Elan excludes himself from the meeting because he didn’t feel confident attending. The first instinct of the Order SHOULD be to adjust the meeting to accommodate Elan’s anxiety and impaired following ability and make him feel comfortable attending. Anything else is CRIMINAL work practices. Instead Elan is told the meeting is optional and because of this he missed out on valuable CPD so that Minrah of all people has a better understanding of the big picture team capabilities than a founding member. Who remembers when Elan was ordered by V to run a mile to get Durkon to unpetify Haley when he could have Song of Freedom’d her out himself? Clearly no one. It’s never been acknowledged in comic and the Order are letting history repeat.

But they are fictional. It doesn’t matter what they do. What matters is that Rich Burlew, a person in the real world, is advocating for criminal work practices and portraying them in comic as acceptable. OOTS has a big reach amongst neurodiverse people and people who work with, live with and employ neurodiverse people. In that context, such behaviour would be criminal and Rich is portraying it as acceptable.

Elan’s certainly not getting a happy ending in a workplace where your employer shouts at you that you don’t count and then continues to treat you as second class without consequence.

Did you make a fresh account containing the author's name just to accuse him of criminal advocacy over letting a lighthearted manchild not attend a meeting that put much more serious characters to sleep? And then say that his current course of action is informed by missing information about the team member that he skipped the meeting with, observing those same capabilities in action during play?

[Space Sorceress]

Correction: Elan can run out of song. Bardic Music has a limited number of per day uses.

Ahhh, thank you, thank you. Knew I shoulda double-checked that before posting; my understanding of DnD rules is pretty basic

I just figured one couldn't run out of, you know, singing. Maybe he has to take cough drops after too many songs or something...

[ozmar]

Does anyone know whether the effects of a Weapon of Legacy would be affected by an AMF? I was hoping to see a lot of green when Roy finally got to hit Calder

AMF shuts down all magic. Period. Only artifacts are immune. A weapon of legacy is just a masterwork weapon in an AMF.

-Ozmar the DM

[Provengreil]

AMF shuts down all magic. Period. Only artifacts are immune. A weapon of legacy is just a masterwork weapon in an AMF.

-Ozmar the DM

This is only mostly true, actually.

It is a swanky, emotionally important masterwork weapon in an AMF.

[RichTF]

Another advantage of Protection From Evil is that it provides ongoing protection, so Calder won’t be able to try that same trick again during this fight (not on Sunny at least).

[woweedd]

Sounds like someone is miffed by the way the Order treats Elan.

To be fair... Elan's history kind of warrants their dismissing him. But they've gotten better, as he's also gotten better at contributing. There have been many, many, many examples of Elan's increasing competence and the party's (and especially Roy's) acknowledgement thereof.

-Ozmar the Fair Witness

Personally, i'd have picked this as an example of Roy acknowledging Elan's growth. Him actively deferring to Elan to make an extremely vital descion, showing that Roy really does trust his judgement, on this at least.

[ti'esar]

The way Calder keeps referring to Sunny as "aberration" is really starting to tick me off.

[ozmar]

Personally, i'd have picked this as an example of Roy acknowledging Elan's growth. Him actively deferring to Elan to make an extremely vital descion, showing that Roy really does trust his judgement, on this at least.

I literally thought of that one, but looking up comics takes time :) so I just picked the ones I could quickly find.

-Ozmar the Semi-Lazy

[ozmar]

The way Calder keeps referring to Sunny as "aberration" is really starting to tick me off.

Well, he doesn't know its name. But also, Calder's kind of evil, so yeah... But I think its good that it ticks you off. Its a good response to the objectification that Calder probably applies to all beings other than him(her?)self. Other creatures are just slaves to Calder.

-Ozmar the Objective

[Tzardok]

The way Calder keeps referring to Sunny as "aberration" is really starting to tick me off.

On one hand, yes, but on the other, what else is he supposed to say? He can't say beholder because the name is copyrighted, and he doesn't know Sunny's name.