OOTS #1299 - The Discussion Thread

[Windscion]

The way Calder keeps referring to Sunny as "aberration" is really starting to tick me off.

He's a cult leader, seeing his minions as anything other than expendable isn't his thing.

[Yxylu]

I did have a question whether or not Bloodfeast chomping on Calder's neck would prevent the dragon's fire-breathing ability from functioning.

While I would rule that it would stop the breath weapon, were I the DM, in this case (right now, anyway), it’s moot. The anti-magic cone shuts down the breath weapon, since dragon breath is a supernatural ability.

[Heroic Lich]

First of all, Elan is not neurodivergent. He is of low intelligence, yes, but he is not mentally disabled

It's admittedly pedantic being neurodivergent doesn't mean mentally disabled, it means you have a different way of processing information and dealing with emotions, among other things. Elan is probably neurodivergent since he seems to have some elements of ADHD, although turned up to 11.

As for the Song of Freedom point...I don't know if he actually knew Song of Freedom at that point, it seems like a weird thing to bring up

But as for the other points, Song of Freedom has a long casting time so it is correct to say that it wouldn't work. Everything else is spot on.

[Kardwill]

Well, he doesn't know its name. But also, Calder's kind of evil, so yeah... But I think its good that it ticks you off. Its a good response to the objectification that Calder probably applies to all beings other than him(her?)self. Other creatures are just slaves to Calder.

-Ozmar the Objective

Well, yes. After all, Sunny is just a "fascinating little tool" whose only purpose in life is serving Calder's ambitions. Like everybody else, really. It's just the natural order of things.

Dragons gotta dragon.

[Coppercloud]

First of all, Elan is not neurodivergent. He is of low intelligence, yes, but he is not mentally disabled, in the real world sense,

I'm sure it wasn't your intention, but your phrasing could be read as equating neurodivergence with mental disability, which rubbed me the wrong way.

As for the Song of Freedom point...I don't know if he actually knew Song of Freedom at that point, it seems like a weird thing to bring up.

Bards learn Song of Freedom before they get 5-th-level spells, and Elan had those at this point. The only ways Elan could learn these abilities in reverse order would be if the OotS-specific Dashing Swordsman prestige class advanced bard spellcasting, or if Elan didn't get enough Perform skill ranks until two levels later. Which is possible, since this comic is not meant to be a treaty on build optimization, and also since despite being a human Elan's low intelligence would give him less points per level.

But as for the other points, Song of Freedom has a long casting time so it is correct to say that it wouldn't work. Everything else is spot on.

Song of Freedom was mentioned in the context of the fight against Zz'dtri at the arena, as an example of Elan forgetting his own abilities. I think Elan could have tried it at the time, but it would have slowed him down while he needed to run to warn Durkon anyway, so he might have decided against this course of action and not actually forgotten anything at all.

[BurlewContact]

First of all, Elan is not neurodivergent. He is of low intelligence, yes, but he is not mentally disabled, in the real world sense, he is, by D&D standards, fully mentally competent, and, like all characters with an Int score above 3, considered mentally competent, fully capable of things like being in combat, surviving in a dungeon, and telling right from wrong IE he has an alignment. As for the way they treat Elan, while there is certainly a degree of underestimation there (and, honestly, not entirely unwarranted), his competence has been acknowledged by the rest of the party on numerous occasions and, while Roy has snapped at him often (although, I notice you did not mention said snapping was shortly after learning his best friend was violently murdered), he is generally regarded as a member of the team on par. He excluded himself from the meeting, fully willingly, and it does not actually seem to have effected his effectiveness whatsoever. As for the Song of Freedom point...I don't know if he actually knew Song of Freedom at that point, it seems like a weird thing to bring up.



Since when? I mean, aside from the illusion magic early on, and that stopped pretty quickly after V started giving him pointers on how to use it effectively, I can't recall any notable instances of Elan forgetting about his powers any more so then the rest of the party sometimes do as well (IE V forgetting about Blackwing all the time, pre-development).

I’m aware that Elan isn’t neurodiverse. I’m ALSO aware Rich Burlew promised to include members of every marginalised minority group in his comic and he seems to have missed a particularly large group who is a significant part of the fan base.

You speak of context regarding Roy’s view on Elan. The context that matters is Rich saying that stress brings out the true person. This means regardless of what Roy says and does prior and subsequent, he believes Elan doesn’t count. That’s the real Roy. And I think, in real life, that an employer who says that, that’s him DONE. Expelled. Dismissed from leadership. And of the other members, Elan is best positioned to replace him as leader.

Of course, if we want to have it that Roy didn’t mean those things he said than maybe we should forgive Tarquin when he said he didn’t mean what he said and the Order should have let him aboard. After all, in real life the parent is right that their child was mistreated in the workplace nine time out of ten.

As for the team being “nicer to Elan” that doesn’t matter either. What matters is procedures to accommodate all members are present. Anything else is criminal and illegal, regardless of good intent. Procedurally the Order failed. Rich Burlew said the comic should be judged by its impact on the real world. Showing that you don’t need to make adjustments to a meeting because one member is struggling to follow and that it doesn’t matter if said member loses our on CPD is an example of a NEGATIVE REAL WORLD IMPACT.

As for Elan uniquely forgetting his powers, it’s the only running joke of that ilk which carries past early book 2 (other than Blackwing) and Elan forgetting illusions is the subject of a book 6 bonus comic in the Giant Fight. But the most notable example is the Song of Freedom thing (which Elan was definitely a 13th level Bard during). You wouldn’t want your co-worker making you run a mile because neither of you knew you could do something and then it never gets brought up again. Neither should Elan.

[kenlund]

I find myself if this battle is a n opportunity to get some of the Order the XP they need to hit their next levels. It would be a good time right before the big boss battle with Xykon. And beating a dragon is usually worth a lot of XP.

I've played D&D, but I'm not clear on the rules for a behol...I mean creature like Sunny using anti-magic. Will Bloodfeast polymorph back to a lizard when no longer in Sunny's gaze? Or has this removed the spell effect?

[ozmar]

I feel like if we're applying real-world laws to a D&D world we're going to hit much bigger crimes from the Order than some less than ideal treatment of a coworker with ADHD.

IKR. Of all the things to get upset about! "Oh noes, the Order doesn't model best-practices in workplace inclusion!" Never mind the wholesale plundering and murder of goblins in dungeons... the extra-legal vigilantism... the attempts to foment rebellion and topple foreign governments... impersonating royalty...

-Ozmar the Fantasy Lawyer

[Tubercular Ox]

The real crime here is against the Bluish people who were unfairly robbed of the only representation they had. It's bad enough that literally everyone punched down on them after the Rooster Teeth thing, but ignoring Rich's casual erasure of them from history in favor of arguing about workplace practices is cooperating with genocide.

[gatemansgc]

I love Sunny! So earnest.

Haley looks stressed. I'm guessing Minrah in full armor weighs a good bit more than either Elan or Bandana.

Thanks, Rich!

oh true, she is used to carrying lighter characters!

[BurlewContact]

I'll be honest I just assumed Haley picked up Minrah because she was closer and not in the anti-magic field. Probably the correct tactical choice and if I was Elan's player I wouldn't be at all mad about it.



Here's the thing, Tarquin is acting in bad faith and Roy is not.



I feel like if we're applying real-world laws to a D&D world we're going to hit much bigger crimes from the Order than some less than ideal treatment of a coworker with ADHD.



If I had to run a mile to get something and I realized I had a tool that could have done the job in my pocket I would be deeply frustrated, but it's also the sort of mistake that happens in a high-stress situation (and which in this case had an obvious narrative purpose of taking Haley out of the fight with Z and getting Nale into contact with Malack)



I do in fact specifically remember Rich saying that he was hesitant to include an explicitly trans character because he was worried about getting things wrong.

Elan is also out of the AMF and Dispel is ranged.

I agree Tarquin’s apology is insincere. But so is Belkar’s after “character development”. But ultimately that evolved into something more. Maybe Tarquin: Prisoner of Elan could evolve his behaviour. But Haley denies that opportunity by shooting Tarquin in the face, talking over Elan and acting against his best interests.

Application of real world laws is irrelevant to the fantasy stuff because that’s clearly tongue in cheek with obvious “don’t try this at home” disclaimers. What I’m concerned about is real. It’s a real thing that could happen and Rich portrays it without a disclaimer.

[hroþila]

Spoiler

Show

Anyway, cool fight. In the comic, I mean

[Heroic Lich]

Y'all think that if those crack in the floor didn't disrupt the stasis, that Calder will be half in stasis if the AMF turns off?

I've actually been wondering about that for a while, but since Sunny's kept her AMF eye centred on him maybe not? I don't think it will at this point anyways but that could have been a good strategy earlier on.

[danielxcutter]

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[Heroic Lich]

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[Provengreil]

I've actually been wondering about that for a while, but since Sunny's kept her AMF eye centred on him maybe not? I don't think it will at this point anyways but that could have been a good strategy earlier on.

It really kind of depends on how the trap actually works I guess. Thinking on it, it's likely that someone his a trigger on the way in and it didn't matter because Calder was already moving, so by now they're off either way. Be kinda funny to have him half mobile though.

Maybe that's how the two sides of the battle find time to use words and not wounds?

[arimareiji]

IKR. Of all the things to get upset about! "Oh noes, the Order doesn't model best-practices in workplace inclusion!" Never mind the wholesale plundering and murder of goblins in dungeons... the extra-legal vigilantism... the attempts to foment rebellion and topple foreign governments... impersonating royalty...

-Ozmar the Fantasy Lawyer

Wrt your input throughout the thread… You probably get this all the time, but I wanted to say that I'm a huge fan of your work. (^_~)

(I just find myself wondering who fermented perceived grievances long enough to decide creating …Detract was a good idea.)

[Psyren]

2. Minrah: what spell is she casting?

Pro:Evil is my guess, as she has used that anti-domination tactic previously.

Is dragon subdual even a thing in 3.x?

As written, only constructs and undead are immune to nonlethal baseline. True Dragons are susceptible, so knocking him out is feasible if they go that route.

If that weren't enough, this overland movement quote seems to explicitly state that dragons are subject to nonlethal damage:

Dragons do not tire as quickly as other creatures when moving overland on the ground. If a dragon attempts a hustle or a forced march, check for nonlethal damage once every 2 hours instead of every hour.

[Rinazina]

If the Calder phase ends soon with his demise, only two factors could be affected:

1. A giant Tyrannousurus (can it be shrinked?) that otherwise can't leave the room.
2. Serini perhaps trusting the Order even more than before?

... and so, I don't see this as more than an appropriate level random encounter...
What narrative purpose do you see in it so far? if none, then Calder isn't over yet?

[Provengreil]

If the Calder phase ends soon with his demise, only two factors could be affected:

1. A giant Tyrannousurus (can it be shrinked?) that otherwise can't leave the room.
2. Serini perhaps trusting the Order even more than before?

... and so, I don't see this as more than an appropriate level random encounter...
What narrative purpose do you see in it so far? if none, then Calder isn't over yet?

Indeed, this is why I said earlier the Calder thing isn't just going to be them pinning him, killing him, and moving on. Too much effort for no payout on a narrative side for that.

Serini's interactions with the order going forward are highly likely to hinge on how this finishes.

And Bloodfeast is only big while in the AMF. It's providing Calder with quite the tactical dilemma: Party gets magic, or party gets dinosaur. Which would you choose?

[ti'esar]

On one hand, yes, but on the other, what else is he supposed to say? He can't say beholder because the name is copyrighted, and he doesn't know Sunny's name.

I mean, that's not wrong, but it's not like Calder is so flush with minions here that he needs a specific identifier. He's going out of his way to use the most dismissive term possible.

It's a small detail, but it's definitely an effective move for establishing him as "evil, but also kinda a ****", to paraphrase Rich's comments on Xykon.

[The MunchKING]

Ahhh, thank you, thank you. Knew I shoulda double-checked that before posting; my understanding of DnD rules is pretty basic

I just figured one couldn't run out of, you know, singing. Maybe he has to take cough drops after too many songs or something...

I mean technically you're right. He can't run out of singing.

WHat he CAN run out is magic power to put IN his singing.

On one hand, yes, but on the other, what else is he supposed to say? He can't say beholder because the name is copyrighted, and he doesn't know Sunny's name.

I mean he could have ASKED at any point before the Order of the Stick showed up.

Just goes to show that as a Cult Leader he just doesn't care. I know all the most powerful members of MY cult in Cult of the Lamb. :p

But as for the other points, Song of Freedom has a long casting time so it is correct to say that it wouldn't work. Everything else is spot on.

They WERE Fighting a wizard at the time. I don't think they had a minute for unbroken singing time, esp. as a Ranger was rolling in to dual shot anyone that would have helped V's chance.

But 12th does seem like Elan would have been at that level by that point.

I've played D&D, but I'm not clear on the rules for a behol...I mean creature like Sunny using anti-magic. Will Bloodfeast polymorph back to a lizard when no longer in Sunny's gaze? Or has this removed the spell effect?

Baleful Polymorph has duration:Permanent. SO after he leaves the AMF, Bloodfeast will be back to a tiny aggressive lizard.

[Yirggzmb]

You are creating your own assumption as to Elan's reasons for not attending the meeting. It could just as easily (and frankly more likely) be because he just finds meetings boring, and he would rather spend time getting to know their new friend Sunny.

Man, I was just thinking "If I were there, I'd so much rather go hang out with Sunny than sit in a long boring meeting". Not because I'm "too anxious about whether I can contribute" but because "omg that sounds really boring". I don't think there's anyway you can "accommodate" a meeting like that into being less boring either, other than just not having it at all.

Elan had a choice about whether to attend. He chose "nah". They were perfectly able to text him (ask him telepathically) if his presence became required or they had questions. And he can look at the meeting notes (or ask Roy for the short version) afterwards if he wants to.

Sounds ideal to me.

[Psyren]

If the Calder phase ends soon with his demise, only two factors could be affected:

1. A giant Tyrannousurus (can it be shrinked?) that otherwise can't leave the room.
2. Serini perhaps trusting the Order even more than before?

... and so, I don't see this as more than an appropriate level random encounter...
What narrative purpose do you see in it so far? if none, then Calder isn't over yet?

#1 the dinosaur is actually perma-shrunk. It will revert to pocket size the moment Sunny puts their lens back in or stops looking at it.

#2 That's a likely outcome of this battle, yes. It would be nice if the paladins could have participated though, her opinion of them is even lower than that her opinion of the Order.

Pivoting to Serini...how does the Troll treatment impact her aging? I know Troll lifespan is around 100 years, but would the creatures age out more rapidly than that if they did not have regeneration? Thus, does Serini have any additional Troll-influenced longesvity? For some reason, many new Troll questions have come to mind.

- M

I think her halfling side is contributing more to her lifespan than the troll side.

[ozmar]

Wrt your input throughout the thread… You probably get this all the time, but I wanted to say that I'm a huge fan of your work. (^_~)

(I just find myself wondering who fermented perceived grievances long enough to decide creating …Detract was a good idea.)

Gosh, thanks!

-Ozmar the Blushing

[The MunchKING]

Banjo players?

He made their rep into a GOD... puppet thing.

Sounds like pandering to me.

[Tzardok]

I mean, that's not wrong, but it's not like Calder is so flush with minions here that he needs a specific identifier. He's going out of his way to use the most dismissive term possible.

Wouldn't the most dismissive term be either "Slave" or "You there!"?

Pivoting to Serini...how does the Troll treatment impact her aging? I know Troll lifespan is around 100 years, but would the creatures age out more rapidly than that if they did not have regeneration? Thus, does Serini have any additional Troll-influenced longesvity? For some reason, many new Troll questions have come to mind.

- M

There exists the possibility that a troll without regeneration would be more longlived. Regeneration possibly puts a lot of stress on the body and consumes ressources that would otherwise be spent on keeping the body going.

[fuschiawarrior]

Wouldn't the most dismissive term be either "Slave" or "You there!"?

Wouldn't you find demeaning if your boss or cult leader used "human" to refer to you? In my opinion all three are equally bad.

[Tubercular Ox]

Show me where, exactly, The Giant promised to included members of EVERY marginalized group. Because there's a lot of them. Left handed people? Sikhs? People with Tourette's Syndrome? Kleptomaniacs? Schizophrenics? Banjo players? Seems like an impossible task.

Don't forget the Blues.

[Tzardok]

Wouldn't you find demeaning if your boss or cult leader used "human" to refer to you? In my opinion all three are equally bad.

Probably, but I'd find it less demeaning than "slave" or "servant". Not to mention any actual insults.