OOTS #1299 - The Discussion Thread

[elecampane]

So glad the ridiculous argument from the previous thread, saying "a 78+ Hp Allosaurus maybe perhaps got stabbed with a nonmagical greatsword, he might be dead", got laid to rest in this comic.
So sad the new completely bonkers argument has taken over this thread. Seriously, "OOTS should be held to the standards of modern-day employers with HR departments because real-life employers read this comic and that might inform their actions" is completely inane-sounding to me. Like, OOTS use child labor, have a convicted mass murderer in their midst, a non-convicted (albeit repentant) genocidal mage, and don't even get me started on the sexual harassment violations. Not to mention all the stealing, plundering, defying authorities and so on and so forth.

And, like, them agreeing to Elan doing teambuilding exercise instead of suffering through a meeting he didn't want to attend and would not contribute to is indeed them accommodating him. I don't understand how the takes "Elan is very capable and is the only one of the Order deserving to be a leader" and "Elan depends on others to make him do hard things or chew hard things to little pieces so he can digest them" are coming up simultaneously in the same argument. Because the second argument is exactly what "they should've found a way to include Elan in a meeting against his wishes" essentially is.

Also, the assumption that they didn't ask Elan to cast greater dispel magic on Sunny because they forgot he could is too out of nowhere. The chance of dispel magic working depends on difference between caster levels of the original spell caster, and the caster of dispel. Calder's at least level 15 (Ocular ray), possibly 17, so the DC to dispel would be 26+ against 1d20+Elan's caster level. Why use a spell that will more likely fail than work, and would take a 5th level slot, when one could use a 1st level spell that will 100% work and also provide continuous protection?
I'll give you one thing: Haley's attacks would probably be more useful than whatever song Elan's playing, and she'd spend her turn lifting Minrah up. If Elan had invested points in use magic device, which is a Cha skill and is a class skill for him, he would be able to use Haley's wands (neither Fly nor Protection from alignment are Bard spells, thus requiring UMD), he would've been able to act better in this situation. But he did not. Suggesting the Order should've used his magic just to make him feel included, even though it would puts everyone in greater danger is just... bad; pretty sure that would be actually criminal in a real-life employment situation.

Standard t-rex grappling or fighting an old+ red dragon doesn't work in the rules, but it's possible if the t-rex is advanced to Gargantuan size, which seems reasonable since it and the dragon look comparable in size. T-rexes can be advanced up to 54 HD

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm

Yes, but Bloodfeast is an Allosaurus. Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge); 21-30 HD (Gargantuan).

Because more people would be upset at the effects of not having daylight savings time than are upset by having it. Yeah. I know. Crazy, right? But... bear with me here.

Most people dislike the actual time change. And that's a reasonable thing. But it happens 2 days a year. Annoying, but brief relatively speaking.

Most people who dislike something about the actual time and the "daylight" elements of it, actually complain about "standard time" and not the actual "daylight savings time" period of the calendar. And that's what we just normally get in terms of hours of daylight per day. Nothing at all we can do about it (well, except shifting to "daylight savings all the time", which I've heard people talk about, but I suspect they would hate just as much if it were actually implemented, if not more). <...>

Weren't there medical studies that found a measurable adverse effects on human health, brought by this "annoying, but brief" 2 days a year clock-shifts? From myself I can say that my country had relinquished DST some 10 years ago, and I hadn't missed that bastard even for a second since.

[The MunchKING]

But there's also another factor: Bloodfeast isn't wild. He was trained by the Empire of Blood and may well be carrying a nonstandard stat block for his creature type. He almost certainly has improved grab and a pretty good strength score, and it wouldn't change his size, but some of the other stuff in there might be different in a way that's helping him.

If it's all training, what if it's not stat boosts (Which tend to reflect your innate stats), but CLASS LEVELS!

Bloodfeast is going to turn out to have like 10 levels of Fighter on top his monster HD.

[Provengreil]

If it's all training, what if it's not stat boosts (Which tend to reflect your innate stats), but CLASS LEVELS!

Bloodfeast is going to turn out to have like 10 levels of Fighter on top his monster HD.

Well that's not far off from what I'm suggesting, really. Maybe not fighter levels exactly, but warrior (maybe a slight homebrew, like "monster warrior" or "trained beast"): improved BAB to 1 and a remixed feat list alone can close the normal grapple score gap by about 13 or so.

[drazen]

.

Because more people would be upset at the effects of not having daylight savings time than are upset by having it. Yeah. I know. Crazy, right? But... bear with me here.

Most people dislike the actual time change. And that's a reasonable thing. But it happens 2 days a year. Annoying, but brief relatively speaking.

Most people who dislike something about the actual time and the "daylight" elements of it, actually complain about "standard time" and not the actual "daylight savings time" period of the calendar. And that's what we just normally get in terms of hours of daylight per day. Nothing at all we can do about it (well, except shifting to "daylight savings all the time", which I've heard people talk about, but I suspect they would hate just as much if it were actually implemented, if not more). Case in point:

That's "standard time". It would be that dark that early whether we had daylight savings time or not. Or, if we switched to DST all year round, it would get dark an hour earlier in the winter months, and you'd be complaining about driving home in the dark. Or your kids walking home from school in the dark. Or your kids doing afterschool activities in the dark, etc (I'll point out that the absurd solution number two I mention below would actually fix this. Of course, your kids would have to learn stuff 20% faster during the winter months, but it's all relative right?)

I suspect that the vast majority of people actually really do enjoy the fact that daylight extends longer into the evening during the summer months because of daylight savings time, rather than having sunrise occur at like 4:30 in the morning, and would actuallly dislike it if that were removed.

It's hard to say exactly, but I suspect that most people actually do prefer the effects of daylight savings. They just don't like the abrupt time change. And, given the time period, I just happened to be giving this some thought over the last couple days, and have come up with two "solutions":

1. Given that we live in an age with all our clocks being digital and whatnot, just have like "leap seconds" (or reverse) happen every day. We could seriously just adjust the clock skew a tiny bit each day, and none of us would really notice it. Computers don't have a problem with this, since they just count time from an arbitrary starting point anyway (in total seconds since epoc time). What you see on your clock is just the application of a timezone function to that base time. Could be easy enough to do this. Might be an issue having to constantly reset your oven(s) maybe (about the only clocks most people use that don't auto sync to some nntp source).

2. A slight(ly absurd) variation of the above. We actually change the duration of the length of time a second actually lasts at different times of the day througout the year. That way, night and day time are always the same length of time!. I mean, this might wreak a bit of havoc in just about everything, but it would certainly be... fun! (yeah, I may have been in a sillly delerium when I came up with this one). I haven't quite worked out the details in terms of latitudinal effects, but I'm sure we could make it work.

Nitpick: with year-round DST, you're no longer driving home in the dark. However, the kids are waiting for the school bus in the dark, which is why year-round DST was abandoned when attempted in the 1970s.

What's funny is that something like 80% of the people want to abolish the time change but they are evenly divided about HOW to do this. Nearly half want year round DST. Nearly half want year round standard time. A few silly outliers want to split the difference with a 30-minute shift.

As for me, as a golfer, I wholeheartedly endorse the only possible correct solution to this conundrum, Daylight Golfing Time, wherein we set the clocks ahead FOUR to SIX hours so that I can golf until midnight.

In all seriousness, I have long speculated that most peoples' feelings usually strongly depend on which end of the time zone they live in. In Maine, it's dark at 4PM for a couple months of the year. But in western Eastern time it's light past 10 PM in the summer... it's just that most people probably think of that kind of daylight as more of an Alaska/Norway kind of thing.

Most of New England should probably be on Atlantic time, but they're on Eastern time likely due to business with and proximity to New York City.

[DreamCreator]

There is definitely going to be some drama around Serini seeming to have ENTIRELY DIPPED during this fight. Likely to save her own skin. Although I'm surprised she would have left behind Sunny..

The only other possibility I can think of is that she ran off to grab reinforcements or some other magical doodad to help with the fight.

[bunsen_h]

"...and what's a gllrtkyt? I need to do what you say in the order you say it, after all, and I can't close my gllrtkyt unless I know what it is."

Pedantically: the instruction was "turn your gllrtkyt", not to close it.

To be fair, “polymorphed Allosaurus” isn’t exactly that high up on the priority list most of the time.

That depends on whether the situation involves concern about the possibility that one might show up (extremely unlikely, under most circumstances) or about what to do with a temporarily-un-polymorphed allosaurus that is actually in the room. The former is not much of a priority; the latter usually is.

I'm in your camp on this one, I think. Possibly Bloodfeast will have a rematch.

If Calder is killed, I don't think the Order is likely to leave the body lying around. They're aware of the possibility that it could be used against them, V has disintegrated vanquished foes in the past and is aware of the option, and Sunny has unlimited disintegrations available IIRC.

IKR. Of all the things to get upset about! "Oh noes, the Order doesn't model best-practices in workplace inclusion!" Never mind the wholesale plundering and murder of goblins in dungeons... the extra-legal vigilantism... the attempts to foment rebellion and topple foreign governments... impersonating royalty...

-Ozmar the Fantasy Lawyer

Back at the turn of the century, I worked for a small company whose payroll included a sales... organism. In all his time with the company — I saw about a year and a half of it before the company folded — he never made a sale. (When we were handed our termination paycheques, he was peeved that the other salespeople had commissions but he didn't.) This was at least partially because he spent some of his time trying to make "deals" with "clients" about things that the company had no connection with. On observation, his main role was to attend important meetings with prospective clients, sit in the back, watch all the presentations, then pipe up with bizarre questions that made us look incompetent. I have no idea why he was kept on, nor why he was included in these meetings. Maybe it was some kind of "inclusivity", maybe they couldn't find a way of keeping him out, maybe the people who made such decisions were trying to kill the company. If he'd been kept out of those client meetings, perhaps he would have felt bad, but he'd probably have been able to keep drawing a paycheque for longer.

2. A slight(ly absurd) variation of the above. We actually change the duration of the length of time a second actually lasts at different times of the day througout the year. That way, night and day time are always the same length of time!. I mean, this might wreak a bit of havoc in just about everything, but it would certainly be... fun! (yeah, I may have been in a sillly delerium when I came up with this one). I haven't quite worked out the details in terms of latitudinal effects, but I'm sure we could make it work.

In years gone by, there was a well-known internet kook named Alexander Abian. He was a math prof, and I can't critique his work in his own field, but I can comment on his supposed scientific concepts. He was regularly ending his messages with comments like "ALTER EARTH'S ORBIT AND TILT - STOP EPIDEMICS OF CANCER, CHOLERA, AIDS, ETC. / VENUS MUST BE GIVEN A NEAR EARTH-LIKE ORBIT TO BECOME A BORN AGAIN EARTH". All that we need to do to resolve the DST issue is to change our orbit: get rid of the eccentricity, and straighten up that axis of rotation.

[Ruck]

Did you make a fresh account containing the author's name just to accuse him of criminal advocacy over letting a lighthearted manchild not attend a meeting that put much more serious characters to sleep? And then say that his current course of action is informed by missing information about the team member that he skipped the meeting with, observing those same capabilities in action during play?

Apparently so. I don't think there's much more to say.

[Gusmo]

I predict Calder dies, but comes back undead and allied to Xykon.

[Ruck]

Also, after moving further north and with more extreme differences in daylight length, I wouldn't mind a permanent Daylight Saving Time. I'm just tired of the back-and-forth changes. But I also don't like the sun going down at 4 in the winter.

[gbaji]

Weren't there medical studies that found a measurable adverse effects on human health, brought by this "annoying, but brief" 2 days a year clock-shifts? From myself I can say that my country had relinquished DST some 10 years ago, and I hadn't missed that bastard even for a second since.

Can't speak to medical studies (nor how reliable vs cherry picked they may be). I can say that the number one issue I have is when they switch back to standard time, and... depite the fact that everyone knows what day the time changes on (like well in advance even!), somehow the city/state (or whomever does this) can't figure out to change the time the street lamps turn on. Do they not have some kind of computerized system that determines when the street lamps come on? Maybe not. And sure. I'd assume that this also happens in the morning hour when we switch to DST (do the lights turn off before dawn? I'm not generally awake and outside that early).

Dunno. I think that most people don't really understand the effect of having or not having DST in effect (relative to the various alternatives folks have proposed). The negatives are the clock change. Period. The actual effect on daylight and when dusk/dawn comes, is pretty overwhelmingly possitive (IMHO of course!).

If we actually went to year round DST in say Seattle, you'd have dawn hitting at 8:57AM in the middle of winter. If we went to year round ST, Seattle would have dawn hitting at 4:11AM in the middle of summer. What DST does is smooth that out, making the earliest dawn 5:11, and the latest dawn 7:57 (in Seattle, where it rains a lot anyway, so...?)

Where I live would be less problematic, but still not great. If we went to year round DST, we'd have dawn hitting at 7:50AM in winter. If we went to year round ST, we'd be hitting dawn at 4:40AM in the middle of summer. Once again, DST smooths that out making the earliest dawn 5:40, and the latest dawn 7:04 (in Sunny San Diego, where I live).

So for the continental US, it's actually a pretty decent system. Assuming that most people aren't actually doing a whole lot of productive stuff outside the home that early anyway (which the vast vast majority are not), there's a ton of value in not having all of that daylight "wasted" while we're all snug in our beds.

Nitpick: with year-round DST, you're no longer driving home in the dark. However, the kids are waiting for the school bus in the dark, which is why year-round DST was abandoned when attempted in the 1970s.

Yeah. I suspect that's where most of the "OMG! My kids will have to wait for the school bus in the dark" assumptions comes from. I haven't run like all the different latitudes, but (as you can see from my quick dump of some data, and folks are free to check their own city/zip here), in most more northern latitudes the latest dawn occurs in ST anyway, so DST doesn't have this effect (except if applied year round or course!). And at my latitude, the latest dawn is 7:04, which is not exactly super late. I suppose if your kid has a really long bus ride and maybe a walk to the bus that might be an issue. But honestly? If he's walking in the dark because dawn doesn't come until 7:04, he's probably also walking in the dark because it comes at 6:50 (which is the latest dawn in ST where I live).

And, of course, as you get further south, dawn comes earlier anyway, so the problem becomes moot.

But yes. You are absolutely correct, that if we went to either DST all year round *or* ST all year round, we'd have one problem or the other, and tons of people would complain about them.

[arimareiji]

Imean, obviously that would work, but I'm going with what's possible.

Thank you for a good long dark laugh. *applauds*


…although maybe if they ever invent a way to charge people a subscription fee for it?

[Peelee]

Thank you for a good long dark laugh. *applauds*

And I'm fighting for that laugh to be in the daylight!

[Space Sorceress]

And I'm fighting for that laugh to be in the daylight!

But think of the Vampires, Peelee! The Vampires!!

#isSwedish

[bunsen_h]

Also, after moving further north and with more extreme differences in daylight length, I wouldn't mind a permanent Daylight Saving Time. I'm just tired of the back-and-forth changes. But I also don't like the sun going down at 4 in the winter.

It is better to don a blindfold than to curse the brightness.

[Peelee]

#isSwedish

You have my condolences. HEYO!

[Space Sorceress]

You have my condolences. HEYO!

XDDDDDDDDDDDD

eyes watering

thanks

[Doctor West]

Another day, another person reaching further than a half-ogre with a spiked chain just so they have something to be angry about.

[Edric O]

Apparently this discussion has veered off into some other topics. But I'm a simple flumph. I just came here to say

<Dalek voice>

EXTREME-INATE. EXTREME-INATE. EXTREME-INATE.

[Wraithfighter]

Honestly, I just don't get why anyone would prefer a high level spell with a chance of failure being cast by a high-level party member over casting a low-level spell with a 100% success rate being cast by a lower-level party member.

The only real advantage Greater Dispel Magic has over Protection From Evil is range, which would've been useful if Haley hadn't been able to give Minrah a lift, but most other times its a pretty bad case of overkill. Maybe something that Roy could've thought about using in a previous strip, but it absolutely makes sense that he'd try to make the preferred solution work over the risky-and-expensive one.

[Ruck]

It is better to don a blindfold than to curse the brightness.

Well, I'm having more of the problem described by the original saying. The 5 AM to 9 PM sunlight in the summer is fine with me. (And to be overly literal, I do have electricity, but I'm inclined to be a late-night person which means in those short days I really get very little sun.)

[Psepha]

Honestly, I just don't get why anyone would prefer a high level spell with a chance of failure being cast by a high-level party member over casting a low-level spell with a 100% success rate being cast by a lower-level party member.

The only real advantage Greater Dispel Magic has over Protection From Evil is range, which would've been useful if Haley hadn't been able to give Minrah a lift, but most other times its a pretty bad case of overkill. Maybe something that Roy could've thought about using in a previous strip, but it absolutely makes sense that he'd try to make the preferred solution work over the risky-and-expensive one.

Another reason that Prot. Evil is the better choice is that it has a duration. With a dispel they'd be at risk of Calder just immediately dominating Sunny again - the Order doesn't know Calder's spellcasting level or available spell slots, so they'd be gambling on a mindbender not having more mind control available - which Serini specifically told them to be careful of, and should have remained a concern since at the beginning of the fight Calder wasn't in the AMF.

[talkamancer]

The 5 AM to 9 PM sunlight in the summer is fine with me.)

In London on 21st June we get 16H40 of daylight and on 21st December only 6H55. I'd be happiest if someone found a way to float us towards the equator down the Atlantic for the winter.

[Kardwill]

I actually see this as the rest of the Order growing in their undersatnding of Elan, and accepting that while he does things in his own way, those ways are just as valid as the ones they use. So... His way is to not sit in a boring meeting and ramble on about character stats, but to get to know people in his own way. He's a free thinker. Heaven forbid we let him be himself.

One of the biggest signs of the Order respecting Elan's abilities and way of doing things is Belkar attending the Stroy Recap class. And Roy deciding that yeah, listening to Elan till late at night is a good use of Belkar's time and someone else will do the recon.

An interesting possibility. One could argue the damage caused by the stress could be regenerated, though, and the demand for additional sustenance should be significant in any event.

In fact, I recall some mass-media using that as a story by-product...the thing regenerating needed lots and lots of food to get better. Abominable, maybe?

Though I grant my original question was, at least in some regards, an editorial comment...I do find the topic very interesting.

So, would adding Troll-ish regeneration extend, shorten or have no impact on a halfling lifespan? Is it dependent on when the grafting occurred? Didn't some version(s) of (A)D&D Trolls also have a disease or poison effect from their claws?

- M

I don't think regenerate would help against aging. A true resurection can recreate from scratch the entire body of someone who died centuries ago, and yet it won't work on someone who died from old age.
So, lifespan in D&D sounds more like a "lifeforce/soul" situation, rather than a biology problem

[Unoriginal]

Great page. Feels amazingly dynamic and fast-paced.

I was thinking that before, but given how the fight is going I think we're going to see a demonstration of "how does the post-character development Order of the Stick deals with a defeated but not dead enemy, at the eleventh hour". Especially since it's more than likely Calder will NOT surrender on his own volition this time.

Last time the Order as a whole had to think about that was before the Azure City siege. Since then, Vaarsuvius and Belkar have become less kill-happy, Durkon and Roy have expressed the desire to do something about the whole adventuring-means-killing-people question, and there are other people' input to consider (Serini will advocate for killing, the others I'm not sure but I'd say probably not).

The way Calder keeps referring to Sunny as "aberration" is really starting to tick me off.

That's the literal name of Sunny's creature type, and Calder isn't allowed to call them their species' name because lawyers.

[Kardwill]

That's the literal name of Sunny's creature type, and Calder isn't allowed to call them their species' name because lawyers.

That's not a good name, though. Calling someone a freak of nature "because that's their creature type" really sounds like a slur. That sounds like calling someone different a Primate, which is technically correct (we all are members of the Primate family), but has unfortunate undertones.

I guess it depends on your sensitivity, but I think "you minion" would actually be less demeaning.

[Unoriginal]

That's not a good name, though. Calling someone a freak of nature "because that's their creature type" really sounds like a slur. That sounds like calling someone a Primate, which is technically correct, but...

Sapient aberrations in 3.X are generally quite proud of being aberrant relatively to the rest of the world.

As in, "we built temples dedicated to how freakish we are, and you should worship us for it" proud.

I guess it depends on your sensitivity, but I think "you minion" would actually be less demeaning.

Being told you are different from the rest and outside the norms is more demeaning than being told you're a subservient underling (with implied lesser importance)?

Depends on sensitivity indeed.


Not that I'm defending calling others "aberration" if it's meant as an insult or slur. But it's clearly not meant as one here.

[danielxcutter]

Another reason that Prot. Evil is the better choice is that it has a duration. With a dispel they'd be at risk of Calder just immediately dominating Sunny again - the Order doesn't know Calder's spellcasting level or available spell slots, so they'd be gambling on a mindbender not having more mind control available - which Serini specifically told them to be careful of, and should have remained a concern since at the beginning of the fight Calder wasn't in the AMF.

To be fair, Calder can’t use it on Sunny again in the AMF. But it’s still a good option for many reasons, yes.

Also re: “Aberration” - Calder’s an ******* and Evil, this has been established already. He probably doesn’t know Sunny’s name, but that’s likely just because he never bothered to ask.

[gerryq]

Looks like Bloodfeast won the grapple, and the sword didn't stab him.


If it wasn't RPG rules it would be, you don't come back from a neck bite like that. His only hope would be to somehow get a domination off despite the AMF onto a cleric and get healed.

Still, I suspect that Calder will live through this somehow. Simply killing him would feel....off, given how well characterized he already has become in just 5 pages.

Tricky business if he does, though. If he promises to defend the area against Team Evil, could he be trusted? Or would he give them all the information for vengeance, and join them if possible?

[danielxcutter]

Personally I think Calder’s going to die here. Considering what happened to him last time he surrendered I don’t think he’d do that again.

Heck, I honestly wouldn’t blame him for that. Even for an Evil bastard like him, being frozen but aware for decades is a nasty fate.

[brian 333]

I'll be honest I just assumed Haley picked up Minrah because she was closer and not in the anti-magic field. Probably the correct tactical choice and if I was Elan's player I wouldn't be at all mad about it.

Haley picked up Minrah because Roy told her to do so. And He specifically asked Minrah to cast Protection From Evil, which is not a Bard Spell.

IKR. Of all the things to get upset about! "Oh noes, the Order doesn't model best-practices in workplace inclusion!" Never mind the wholesale plundering and murder of goblins in dungeons... the extra-legal vigilantism... the attempts to foment rebellion and topple foreign governments... impersonating royalty...

-Ozmar the Fantasy Lawyer

Do you work with the Jones, Rodriguez Legal Partnership, LLC? Or are you an independent? If the latter, I will recommend you to the Stark family concerning a hostile work environment issue with their employer.

I was concerned then. I emailed Rich and sent a letter. Radio silence. Time for a different approach.

Why do people think it is okay to demand that artists create anything but what the author wishes to create? Politely phrased demands are still infringements on artistic license. The artist, not the audience, gets to dictate what is created.

You may judge or critique the work by any standard you wish, and you may do so publicly. If you are or own a venue where works of art are displayed, published, or sold, you may choose which works you will sponsor.

What you may not do is approach an artist with demands to include or exclude elements so that the work confirms to your ideals. Any laws which allow or encourage this behavior are wrong and should be stricken from the books.

Assume I write a textbook teaching businesses to exclude people based on issues having nothing to do with capability. You may publicly expose my work. You may disallow its use as a guide for your company's HR department. You may not demand that I rewrite it to conform to your ideals.

TLDR: Censorship is bad, m'kay? Even if you have good motives, m'kay?


Daylight Savings Time was implemented to maximize natural lighting during work hours. Back when, if you were not there to answer the phone, you missed the call.

Nowadays, when you actually clock in is not relevant. Your phone has a call log, and you will be able to access your email account whenever you want, even if you don't go to work at all. Having everyone on a team or crew that works in tandem is still important, but if you are not a train company, having everyone working according to a single clock in New Delhi is no longer necessary.

Back when I was in construction, we would adjust our schedules to begin work at dawn, which allowed us to maximize the daylight available for overtime. We really didn't care about DST, because we couldn't start work in the dark but we wanted to begin work as early as possible. (Which sometimes meant going to bed in daylight when working in Montana.)

I say, leave the clock on Standard Time, or GMT, or whatever, and allow companies to decide when their work-day starts. It will cut down on the morning line when I want my coffee, which will make everyone happier.

Finally: I like to art, and drawing an animal with something in its mouth is hard. I have to admire The Giant's art.

And Calder gets to learn how it feels to be Extremeinated!