OOTS #1299 - The Discussion Thread

[The MunchKING]

The same V that was ready yet again to kill Serina for the vile crime of upstaging them?

She quite literally tried to "immobilize her harmlessly". It's Hailey that wanted to put a few ranged attacks into Serina.

[Peelee]

She quite literally tried to "immobilize her harmlessly". It's Hailey that wanted to put a few ranged attacks into Serina.

Last panel.

Though that (and Haley's comment) is obviously hyperbole.

[The MunchKING]

Last panel.

Though that (and Haley's comment) is obviously hyperbole.

"posthumous divination". I thought she was talking about removing the mimic posthaste. And that the "Earlier suggestion" she was willing to entertain was moving slowly to stay as a group.

that'll teach me not skim V's verbose speech bubbles.

[Envyus]

So while I know the story trumps the rules and all that, I feel like putting some pure game analysis in here. And assuming Calder is a Wyrm (as it lets him cast 8th level spells) this fight is not going as poorly as it looks for him.

Bloodfeast is likely advanced to Gargantuan but despite the pin it’s unlikely to have done much damage because Calder has DR 20. Everyone ganging up on him now that he’s grounded also likely won’t be able to do much to him because of the DR 20 and all of their magic gear being tuned off by the anti magic. Like the few hits they got on him prior don’t look to have done much, Calder has like 600 Hp and is very likely still above half.

[The MunchKING]

I don't know if he is a Wyrm though, as he's stated to have class levels, and from what I saw, mindbender lets you get spells like you got a level in your spellcasting class. SO if he put a bunch of levels into it, it would be like sorc levels + HD/Age spells for how many spells he could cast.

[Envyus]

I don't know if he is a Wyrm though, as he's stated to have class levels, and from what I saw, mindbender lets you get spells like you got a level in your spellcasting class. SO if he put a bunch of levels into it, it would be like sorc levels + HD/Age spells for how many spells he could cast.

Nothing suggests to me he has class levels. Some people theorized he has class levels and I don’t agree with them.

[Naysmith]

...unless, say, Durkon and V take the lead in making a deal, showing V's further growth in respecting life and showing Durkon that, hey, maybe he can convince Redcloak in the end. Plus the fun of the party's two least-charismatic characters taking the lead in negotiations.

I quite like the idea of V trying for mercy even to the wicked in a complete 180 from their previous approach. Though I would add the refinement of V (or possibly Durkon) interrupting some attacks to ask Roy and/or Serini for a merciful solution, rather than an unprompted surrender that seems vanishingly unlikely.

[danielxcutter]

Nothing suggests to me he has class levels. Some people theorized he has class levels and I don’t agree with them.

Why don’t you? It fits his abilities.

[hamishspence]

Everyone ganging up on him now that he’s grounded also likely won’t be able to do much to him because of the DR 20 and all of their magic gear being tuned off by the anti magic.

DR/magic is considered Supernatural rather than Extraordinary and will be turned off in the antimagic field too.

[danielxcutter]

Also being grappled is probably a significant AC penalty. I don’t remember the specific rules though.

[Conit]

Elan excludes himself from the meeting because he didn’t feel confident attending. The first instinct of the Order SHOULD be to adjust the meeting to accommodate Elan’s anxiety and impaired following ability and make him feel comfortable attending.

You're saying Elan is not confident attending the meeting because he's been made to believe he won't be contributing anything, which is a fair interpretation.
But here's how I interpreted it. Elan is not confident attending the meeting because he knows he won't be contributing anything. Look at how Serini describes the meeting "a plan to plan a plan", they're strategizing. Elan's expertise is on what would make a good story, but Elan himself has acknowledge that doing something because it makes for a better story often puts people in danger (see 938), so creating a strategy based on it making a good story is a bad idea. Conversely, a person devising a strategy, and executing it without flaw not a great story. A good story is antithetical to a good strategy, so Elan does not have the strategic insight to contribute anything of value to that conversation, and Elan knows this.
When Elan suggests a plan it's usually total nonsense (see 80) and Elan is well aware of that. When Roy seems to seriously consider one of Elan's plans, Elan is genuinely concerned (see 1027) because he knows what he just said should not be taken seriously.
That doesn't mean Elan's input on a plan isn't valued by Roy or the party, we see in 1218 Roy relying on Elan's bardic expertise to decide the next course of action. Elan is extremely valuable for providing feedback on a plan, but basically useless for the creation of that plan.

Planning is not where Elan thrives, in fact quite the opposite. Elan's strength is spontaneity. When plans fail, Elan is almost always the one who pulls some surprise out his pocket (see 223, 386, 445, 478, 767, 794, 930). Elan's not a planner, that's why both of his opposites (Nale and Tarquin) are such meticulous planners. Elan is a wildcard, and in a universe where a plan's success is totally reliant on what will make a better story? (see 836) you're always gonna want to have a wildcard.
So not only would Elan participating not be beneficial, it would actually be detrimental. Again Elan's strength is spontaneity, if everyone knows all his abilities and items, then they're no longer a surprise and if Elan can't do something surprising then he's much less effective.

You say Roy and the party are not accommodating for Elan, however I argue they actually are accommodating for Elan by allowing him to not attend the meeting.
Imagine you're the boss of some tech start-up and you had the world's greatest coder on your team, tell him to code anything and he'll have it done in a hour, but he has absolutely no insight when it comes to designing an application (ex. he could code a search bar for a web browser easily, but ask him if a web browser should have a search bar and he'd have no clue). Would you force him to attend the design meetings, where he can't contribute and will feel worthless, or do you let him not attend those and instead just do what he's good at?

I think this is actually a good message for neurodiverse people. A neurodiverse person often cannot contribute to a team in the same way a nerotypical person could. What's being shown here is, it's ok to not be able to contribute in that way, you don't have to, that doesn't mean you're not valuable to the team.

Who remembers when Elan was ordered by V to run a mile to get Durkon to unpetify Haley when he could have Song of Freedom’d her out himself? Clearly no one. It’s never been acknowledged in comic and the Order are letting history repeat.

I don't think we can blame the party for Elan forgetting his own abilities, that's literally one of his most well established character traits, he even straight up chooses to not realize things because it makes a better story (see 793). This is a strength btw, it makes him more spontaneous which again is his strong suit.
Also Song of Freedom requires a minute long uninterrupted performance, there's no way Elan could go 10 rounds without getting interrupted by Zz'dtri, Qarr, or Yuk Yuk. Even if Elan could do the full 10 rounds, V would still tell him to go to Durkon because he can free Haley and wasn't aware of the Linear Guild's presence, so all Elan using song of freedom would do is waste a minute.

But they are fictional. It doesn’t matter what they do. What matters is that Rich Burlew, a person in the real world, is advocating for criminal work practices and portraying them in comic as acceptable. OOTS has a big reach amongst neurodiverse people and people who work with, live with and employ neurodiverse people. In that context, such behaviour would be criminal and Rich is portraying it as acceptable.

I fundamentally disagree with the sentiment of this. I believe an artist can portray something as acceptable, or even portray it as something good, and still not be advocating for it. Look at The Punisher comics, a core theme of those comics is deplorable irredeemable criminal gets away with disgusting crime through judicial loophole. Frank Castle decides if the legal system won't enforce the law, he must be the one to do it.
Often the people Frank Castle kills are completely irredeemable, and the world is genuinely better off without them. The Punisher comics seem to portray Frank Castle's vigilante justice as not just justified/acceptable but also a genuine benefit to society. However the comics' authors are usually not advocating for vigilante justice, in fact many of them actively condemn it.
One can argue that, even if the artist isn't advocating for it, it's still irresponsible to portray a harmful thing as acceptable because it could influence people to believe it's acceptable. However the problem becomes should art be censored from portraying harmful things as acceptable because some people might actually believe it? If so, then shouldn't we be censoring theft, murder, leaving someone to be tortured and killed, lying about suffering from a mental illness (this one's deemed acceptable by literal gods), disenfranchisement of a political opponent (through attempted murder), or what about the destruction of an uncountable number of universes. This stance is honestly quite similar to Miko's ideology.
There's also the fact that it's very difficult if impossible for an artist to control how someone interprets their art.

Elan’s certainly not getting a happy ending in a workplace where your employer shouts at you that you don’t count and then continues to treat you as second class without consequence.

You speak of context regarding Roy’s view on Elan. The context that matters is Rich saying that stress brings out the true person. This means regardless of what Roy says and does prior and subsequent, he believes Elan doesn’t count. That’s the real Roy. And I think, in real life, that an employer who says that, that’s him DONE. Expelled. Dismissed from leadership. And of the other members, Elan is best positioned to replace him as leader.

I don't think "stress brings out the true person" applies to that event. Yes Roy was stressed, but Roy was also angry, even more so than he was stressed, and most people would agree you're not your true self when you're angry. Roy was furious at himself for "letting" Durkon die, that's why he said that.

I've never begged for a reply before but I spent no joke 10 hours writing this comment, so please reply so I can know I didn't just waste half a day.

[Diachronos]

That's not a good name, though. Calling someone a freak of nature "because that's their creature type" really sounds like a slur. That sounds like calling someone different a Primate, which is technically correct (we all are members of the Primate family), but has unfortunate undertones.

I guess it depends on your sensitivity, but I think "you minion" would actually be less demeaning.

Wow, it's almost like dragons, especially chromatic dragons and especially especially ANCIENT chromatic dragons, think that literally every other creature in existence is beneath them and unworthy of even the tiniest shred of respect...

[Bird]

I've never begged for a reply before but I spent no joke 10 hours writing this comment, so please reply so I can know I didn't just waste half a day.

Obviously, that wasn't directed at me, but FWIW, it's a great post. It's thoughtful, well-supported, meaningful and compassionate.

I feel sort of bad that you spent your day on it, because whenever I've done something similar, I've always ended up regretting it.

I hope you get the reply you're looking for, though, and again, great post.

[Kardwill]

Wow, it's almost like dragons, especially chromatic dragons and especially especially ANCIENT chromatic dragons, think that literally every other creature in existence is beneath them and unworthy of even the tiniest shred of respect...

Well, that's exactly what I meant. Calling Sunny "aberration" to their face plays into the idea that to Calder, everybody else is just a tool or a plaything. Not a person, but a thing to be used and discarded. Hence the "Dragon gotta dragon"

[Unoriginal]

Well, that's exactly what I meant. Calling Sunny "aberration" to their face plays into the idea that to Calder, everybody else is just a tool or a plaything. Not a person, but a thing to be used and discarded. Hence the "Dragon gotta dragon"

So why is it ok to call Calder "Dragon"?

That words implies someone who greedily hoard riches and react violently to anyone who'd threaten or even touch the smallest ammount, after all.

[Kardwill]

Once again, Belkar demonstrates that he cares about his little friends - although I'm not sure Bloodfeast the Extreminator counts as little at this moment.

And he even does that without death threats!

Pre-Durkula Belkar would have talked about flossing with their entrails, so threatening to break their teeth is progress, I guess

[Kardwill]

So why is it ok to call Calder "Dragon"?

Well, I'm not calling Calder "dragon" to his face (Or doing anything in Calder's general neighborhood, really. Mostly because I like my organs non-incinerated ^^)

[Provengreil]

So why is it ok to call Calder "Dragon"?

That words implies someone who greedily hoard riches and react violently to anyone who'd threaten or even touch the smallest ammount, after all.

As a form of address? It's not, and I don't think I've seen anyone do so. He introduced himself in his first appearance after all. As a description? It's pretty accurate, he's a dragon through and through.

In Sunny's case, their creature type is aberration and it's therefore an applicable adjective. It is not an appropriate form of address, and we are supposed to take Calder using it that way as a sign of arrogance and dismissiveness.

And sure, he hasn't exactly had time to learn Sunny's name here, but that's his fault.

[brian 333]

So why is it ok to call Calder "Dragon"?

That words implies someone who greedily hoard riches and react violently to anyone who'd threaten or even touch the smallest ammount, after all.

Squire Molehill, I dub thee Sir Mountain.

[Conit]

Obviously, that wasn't directed at me, but FWIW, it's a great post. It's thoughtful, well-supported, meaningful and compassionate.

I feel sort of bad that you spent your day on it, because whenever I've done something similar, I've always ended up regretting it.

I hope you get the reply you're looking for, though, and again, great post.

Thanks. Even if I don't get a reply back from the guy, I'm glad to know there's at least one person who's read the comment and thought about it. That's enough for me to know it wasn't a complete waste of time, so again thank you.

[Provengreil]

Thanks. Even if I don't get a reply back from the guy, I'm glad to know there's at least one person who's read the comment and thought about it. That's enough for me to know it wasn't a complete waste of time, so again thank you.

Check your forums inbox.

[ozmar]

If only. The hours and hours of meetings talking about how to be more productive will keep expanding until productivity improves. (0_o)

And HR Sensitivity Training will continue until morale improves...

-Ozmar the Politically Correct

That's where I fail. I quite like the French.

Not even the French like the French...

-Ozmar the Francophobe

Nothing suggests to me he has class levels. Some people theorized he has class levels and I don’t agree with them.

I think Mindbender is an actual prestige class from Complete Arcane? Not that it's definite, but when Serini says "He's a bit of a mindbender..." I read it as Calder has taken this prestige class. If so, then he has class levels. Note that this class advances spell-casting every other level. So its plausible that Calder is a less-than-ancient dragon with ten levels of this prestige class.

-Ozmar the Pedantic

[Peelee]

Not even the French like the French...

-Ozmar the Francophobe

Marianne does, and that's enough for me.

[Cryos]

Yeah! Get em! Die dragon, die! I wonder if they'll use this strategy with Bloodfeast again, maybe not since it would be dramatically unsatisfying but this was still a great checkov's pet

[Peelee]

Yeah! Get em! Die dragon, die!

I choose to interpret this as "the dragon, the!"

[Shining Wrath]

So... How do we measure the ratio of "people we hate" to "people we are united with"? Is it all about scale?



Yeah. San Fransisco, like many things, looks much much better from a distance than up close.

I haven't been there for a few years, but it's a lovely town up close as well. People hating on the city who haven't been there are weird.
On social media I once had someone tell me downtown Denver was a hell-hole because politics stuff. I said "Hey, I walk down the 16th Street Mall twice every day as part of my commute, and I've never been bothered at all". Didn't matter to them; they'd been told Denver was full of crime, so therefore, my life experiences didn't matter.

Oh sure, but the joke was Bleu cheese.

In a literal sense Bleu is just French for Blue, right?

Right, but it was also the name of a dog. A French King's dog. The priests of the court didn't like the exclamation "Sacre Dieu" (Holy God!), so the nobles switched to swearing by the king's dog "Sacre Bleu!" (Holy Blue, or Holy Dog).

You're saying Elan is not confident attending the meeting because he's been made to believe he won't be contributing anything, which is a fair interpretation.
But here's how I interpreted it. Elan is not confident attending the meeting because he knows he won't be contributing anything. Look at how Serini describes the meeting "a plan to plan a plan", they're strategizing. Elan's expertise is on what would make a good story, but Elan himself has acknowledge that doing something because it makes for a better story often puts people in danger (see 938), so creating a strategy based on it making a good story is a bad idea. Conversely, a person devising a strategy, and executing it without flaw not a great story. A good story is antithetical to a good strategy, so Elan does not have the strategic insight to contribute anything of value to that conversation, and Elan knows this.
When Elan suggests a plan it's usually total nonsense (see 80) and Elan is well aware of that. When Roy seems to seriously consider one of Elan's plans, Elan is genuinely concerned (see 1027) because he knows what he just said should not be taken seriously.
That doesn't mean Elan's input on a plan isn't valued by Roy or the party, we see in 1218 Roy relying on Elan's bardic expertise to decide the next course of action. Elan is extremely valuable for providing feedback on a plan, but basically useless for the creation of that plan.

Planning is not where Elan thrives, in fact quite the opposite. Elan's strength is spontaneity. When plans fail, Elan is almost always the one who pulls some surprise out his pocket (see 223, 386, 445, 478, 767, 794, 930). Elan's not a planner, that's why both of his opposites (Nale and Tarquin) are such meticulous planners. Elan is a wildcard, and in a universe where a plan's success is totally reliant on what will make a better story? (see 836) you're always gonna want to have a wildcard.
So not only would Elan participating not be beneficial, it would actually be detrimental. Again Elan's strength is spontaneity, if everyone knows all his abilities and items, then they're no longer a surprise and if Elan can't do something surprising then he's much less effective.

You say Roy and the party are not accommodating for Elan, however I argue they actually are accommodating for Elan by allowing him to not attend the meeting.
Imagine you're the boss of some tech start-up and you had the world's greatest coder on your team, tell him to code anything and he'll have it done in a hour, but he has absolutely no insight when it comes to designing an application (ex. he could code a search bar for a web browser easily, but ask him if a web browser should have a search bar and he'd have no clue). Would you force him to attend the design meetings, where he can't contribute and will feel worthless, or do you let him not attend those and instead just do what he's good at?

I think this is actually a good message for neurodiverse people. A neurodiverse person often cannot contribute to a team in the same way a nerotypical person could. What's being shown here is, it's ok to not be able to contribute in that way, you don't have to, that doesn't mean you're not valuable to the team.


I don't think we can blame the party for Elan forgetting his own abilities, that's literally one of his most well established character traits, he even straight up chooses to not realize things because it makes a better story (see 793). This is a strength btw, it makes him more spontaneous which again is his strong suit.
Also Song of Freedom requires a minute long uninterrupted performance, there's no way Elan could go 10 rounds without getting interrupted by Zz'dtri, Qarr, or Yuk Yuk. Even if Elan could do the full 10 rounds, V would still tell him to go to Durkon because he can free Haley and wasn't aware of the Linear Guild's presence, so all Elan using song of freedom would do is waste a minute.


I fundamentally disagree with the sentiment of this. I believe an artist can portray something as acceptable, or even portray it as something good, and still not be advocating for it. Look at The Punisher comics, a core theme of those comics is deplorable irredeemable criminal gets away with disgusting crime through judicial loophole. Frank Castle decides if the legal system won't enforce the law, he must be the one to do it.
Often the people Frank Castle kills are completely irredeemable, and the world is genuinely better off without them. The Punisher comics seem to portray Frank Castle's vigilante justice as not just justified/acceptable but also a genuine benefit to society. However the comics' authors are usually not advocating for vigilante justice, in fact many of them actively condemn it.
One can argue that, even if the artist isn't advocating for it, it's still irresponsible to portray a harmful thing as acceptable because it could influence people to believe it's acceptable. However the problem becomes should art be censored from portraying harmful things as acceptable because some people might actually believe it? If so, then shouldn't we be censoring theft, murder, leaving someone to be tortured and killed, lying about suffering from a mental illness (this one's deemed acceptable by literal gods), disenfranchisement of a political opponent (through attempted murder), or what about the destruction of an uncountable number of universes. This stance is honestly quite similar to Miko's ideology.
There's also the fact that it's very difficult if impossible for an artist to control how someone interprets their art.




I don't think "stress brings out the true person" applies to that event. Yes Roy was stressed, but Roy was also angry, even more so than he was stressed, and most people would agree you're not your true self when you're angry. Roy was furious at himself for "letting" Durkon die, that's why he said that.

I've never begged for a reply before but I spent no joke 10 hours writing this comment, so please reply so I can know I didn't just waste half a day.

This is very well researched indeed and well argued. I don't think the person you responded to will care, though. Some people just want to be mad at the world.

[Kardwill]

I wonder if they'll use this strategy with Bloodfeast again, maybe not since it would be dramatically unsatisfying but this was still a great checkov's pet

Yeah, I guess something will happen that will make this a one-shot thing. I just hope it's not something bad happening to Sunny or Bloodfeast.

[Dummy]

"You know what equals power? Power. Power equals power. Crazy, huh? But the kind of power? Doesn't matter as much as you'd think. It turns out, everything is oddly balanced. Weird but true. For example: Right now power takes the form of a... "

Magic inmune Allosaurus.

Hey, that could work better against the Evil Group than just having Sunny there as an obvious target. Is kinda tricky for an undead sorcerer and a pure spellcaster cleric to fight against Bloodfeast without their spells and supernatural abilities. Sure Oona and Greyview are there too, so is not a flawless strategy, but still a pretty cool one.

[Timy]

Right, but it was also the name of a dog. A French King's dog. The priests of the court didn't like the exclamation "Sacre Dieu" (Holy God!), so the nobles switched to swearing by the king's dog "Sacre Bleu!" (Holy Blue, or Holy Dog).

Wow !

What is your source ?

I never heard of that explanation and apparently neither did the internet... I can't find anything except the fact that due to being an anagram, the auto-correct can swith god for dog if misspelled :p

Funnily, according to wikipedia, english-spoken people use more the word "sacrebleu" than the french because of several fictional french-spoken characters using it (FYI : nobody says that in France ^^)

[urbanwolf]

Because Bloodfeast was breed in a kingdom with a massive budget and manpower what kind of thing could they have done to make them better?

Warbeast training would have a high skill check but not impossible. +1hd +3 str and con. Permanent greater magic fang and improved natural armor. Would not matter in the amz, but could explain how he hurt a vampire in his lizard body.(pierced its DR hitting would be easy with all his hitdice) We can assume that they are not awakened.