OOTS #1299 - The Discussion Thread

[pendell]

You're saying Elan is not confident attending the meeting because he's been made to believe he won't be contributing anything, which is a fair interpretation.
But here's how I interpreted it. Elan is not confident attending the meeting because he knows he won't be contributing anything. Look at how Serini describes the meeting "a plan to plan a plan", they're strategizing. Elan's expertise is on what would make a good story, but Elan himself has acknowledge that doing something because it makes for a better story often puts people in danger (see 938), so creating a strategy based on it making a good story is a bad idea. Conversely, a person devising a strategy, and executing it without flaw not a great story. A good story is antithetical to a good strategy, so Elan does not have the strategic insight to contribute anything of value to that conversation, and Elan knows this.
When Elan suggests a plan it's usually total nonsense (see 80) and Elan is well aware of that. When Roy seems to seriously consider one of Elan's plans, Elan is genuinely concerned (see 1027) because he knows what he just said should not be taken seriously.
That doesn't mean Elan's input on a plan isn't valued by Roy or the party, we see in 1218 Roy relying on Elan's bardic expertise to decide the next course of action. Elan is extremely valuable for providing feedback on a plan, but basically useless for the creation of that plan.

Planning is not where Elan thrives, in fact quite the opposite. Elan's strength is spontaneity. When plans fail, Elan is almost always the one who pulls some surprise out his pocket (see 223, 386, 445, 478, 767, 794, 930). Elan's not a planner, that's why both of his opposites (Nale and Tarquin) are such meticulous planners. Elan is a wildcard, and in a universe where a plan's success is totally reliant on what will make a better story? (see 836) you're always gonna want to have a wildcard.
So not only would Elan participating not be beneficial, it would actually be detrimental. Again Elan's strength is spontaneity, if everyone knows all his abilities and items, then they're no longer a surprise and if Elan can't do something surprising then he's much less effective.

You say Roy and the party are not accommodating for Elan, however I argue they actually are accommodating for Elan by allowing him to not attend the meeting.
Imagine you're the boss of some tech start-up and you had the world's greatest coder on your team, tell him to code anything and he'll have it done in a hour, but he has absolutely no insight when it comes to designing an application (ex. he could code a search bar for a web browser easily, but ask him if a web browser should have a search bar and he'd have no clue). Would you force him to attend the design meetings, where he can't contribute and will feel worthless, or do you let him not attend those and instead just do what he's good at?

I think this is actually a good message for neurodiverse people. A neurodiverse person often cannot contribute to a team in the same way a nerotypical person could. What's being shown here is, it's ok to not be able to contribute in that way, you don't have to, that doesn't mean you're not valuable to the team.


I don't think we can blame the party for Elan forgetting his own abilities, that's literally one of his most well established character traits, he even straight up chooses to not realize things because it makes a better story (see 793). This is a strength btw, it makes him more spontaneous which again is his strong suit.
Also Song of Freedom requires a minute long uninterrupted performance, there's no way Elan could go 10 rounds without getting interrupted by Zz'dtri, Qarr, or Yuk Yuk. Even if Elan could do the full 10 rounds, V would still tell him to go to Durkon because he can free Haley and wasn't aware of the Linear Guild's presence, so all Elan using song of freedom would do is waste a minute.


I fundamentally disagree with the sentiment of this. I believe an artist can portray something as acceptable, or even portray it as something good, and still not be advocating for it. Look at The Punisher comics, a core theme of those comics is deplorable irredeemable criminal gets away with disgusting crime through judicial loophole. Frank Castle decides if the legal system won't enforce the law, he must be the one to do it.
Often the people Frank Castle kills are completely irredeemable, and the world is genuinely better off without them. The Punisher comics seem to portray Frank Castle's vigilante justice as not just justified/acceptable but also a genuine benefit to society. However the comics' authors are usually not advocating for vigilante justice, in fact many of them actively condemn it.
One can argue that, even if the artist isn't advocating for it, it's still irresponsible to portray a harmful thing as acceptable because it could influence people to believe it's acceptable. However the problem becomes should art be censored from portraying harmful things as acceptable because some people might actually believe it? If so, then shouldn't we be censoring theft, murder, leaving someone to be tortured and killed, lying about suffering from a mental illness (this one's deemed acceptable by literal gods), disenfranchisement of a political opponent (through attempted murder), or what about the destruction of an uncountable number of universes. This stance is honestly quite similar to Miko's ideology.
There's also the fact that it's very difficult if impossible for an artist to control how someone interprets their art.




I don't think "stress brings out the true person" applies to that event. Yes Roy was stressed, but Roy was also angry, even more so than he was stressed, and most people would agree you're not your true self when you're angry. Roy was furious at himself for "letting" Durkon die, that's why he said that.

I've never begged for a reply before but I spent no joke 10 hours writing this comment, so please reply so I can know I didn't just waste half a day.

I do NOT have ten hours to respond, but I wanted to recognize and the you for your efforts in writing this post. I hope the person it is written to will read it and , at least, consider your arguments even if they don't agree.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tubercular Ox]

{scrubbed} I doubt he's going to engage with what Conit said. If he does it's going to be because I called him on it. Am I helping yet?

To Conit: As people keep saying, you have a lot to be proud of in that post. Don't let BurlewContact's failure to engage upset you.

[bunsen_h]

Nothing suggests to me he has class levels. Some people theorized he has class levels and I don’t agree with them.

For page 1297, there was a long discussion about whether Calder casting the Polar Ray from his eyes indicated that he had a special feat or if it was just how Rich was going to depict such spells for bonus stylishness. But on page 1296, Calder cast from his hand/claw. So that does seem to suggest that Calder casting from his eyes involved actual game mechanics, which has implications for his minimum level. I don't know how the details work themselves out.

Planning is not where Elan thrives, in fact quite the opposite. Elan's strength is spontaneity. When plans fail, Elan is almost always the one who pulls some surprise out his pocket (see 223, 386, 445, 478, 767, 794, 930). Elan's not a planner, that's why both of his opposites (Nale and Tarquin) are such meticulous planners. Elan is a wildcard, and in a universe where a plan's success is totally reliant on what will make a better story? (see 836) you're always gonna want to have a wildcard.
So not only would Elan participating not be beneficial, it would actually be detrimental. Again Elan's strength is spontaneity, if everyone knows all his abilities and items, then they're no longer a surprise and if Elan can't do something surprising then he's much less effective.

Hmm. I'd argue that Elan's "secret plan" involving Julio Scoundrél was a long-term plan, well executed. But it's a different form of planning. I'm a poor chess player; I can't keep track of a bunch of possible future moves and counter-moves. But I'm generally pretty good at pulling together a variety of factors in a creative way that blind-sides colleagues and opponents. In my employment, several times we've been blocked by some intractable problem. I've come up with solutions that were bizarre and kludgy, but also stable, robust, and maintainable. A couple of times, some person who was new to the team has been boggled by them and criticized them, then had the situation explained. "Hey, if you think you can come up with something better, feel free. Don't forget that you have to work within the following constraints... No? Then perhaps you should apologize...?"

I've never begged for a reply before but I spent no joke 10 hours writing this comment, so please reply so I can know I didn't just waste half a day.

Well, I appreciated it.

[Tubercular Ox]

{scrubbed}

He kept changing his argument to match the things people appeared to be upset about.

[Mordar]

Thanks. Even if I don't get a reply back from the guy, I'm glad to know there's at least one person who's read the comment and thought about it. That's enough for me to know it wasn't a complete waste of time, so again thank you.

Any time spent improving one's use of the written word cannot be a complete waste of time.

Additionally, we get to discuss the potential impacts of adding regeneration to a halfling on said halfling's natural lifespan. So also not a waste!

I choose to interpret this as "the dragon, the!"

Thanks, Sideshow Peelee.

- M

[Shining Wrath]

Wow !

What is your source ?

I never heard of that explanation and apparently neither did the internet... I can't find anything except the fact that due to being an anagram, the auto-correct can swith god for dog if misspelled :p

Funnily, according to wikipedia, english-spoken people use more the word "sacrebleu" than the french because of several fictional french-spoken characters using it (FYI : nobody says that in France ^^)

My high school French teacher. And I don't remember her source.

Poking around the internet found French people saying that this version is an urban legend.

[Peelee]

My high school French teacher. And I don't remember her source.

Poking around the internet found French people saying that this version is an urban legend.

As i said earlier, it's just a rhyming alternative. Americans have similar phrases replaced with rhyming versions, which are similarly rarely used.

[KorvinStarmast]

In Sunny's case, their creature type is aberration and it's therefore an applicable adjective. It is not an appropriate form of address,

Face palm time. For Calder, it is, and that's what matters. You are free to follow your own norms and customs.

Warbeast training would have a high skill check but not impossible. +1hd +3 str and con. Permanent greater magic fang and improved natural armor. Would not matter in the amz, We can assume that they are not awakened.

Neat idea.

Elan's "secret plan" involving Julio Scoundrél was a long-term plan, well executed.

Concur

Additionally, we get to discuss the potential impacts of adding regeneration to a halfling on said halfling's natural lifespan. So also not a waste!

To which I respond "die, halfling, die...with fire!"

[Lord Torath]

"die, halfling, die...with fire!"

Or, in German the halfling, the... with fire!

[DavidSh]

To which I respond "die, halfling, die...with fire!"

Or, in German the halfling, the... with fire!

I'm too slow, but I was going to suggest that Serini is "die Haflingin". Or maybe "die Halblingin" -- I'm not sure how far the translation out of English went, and my knowledge of German is faded in any event.

[Mordar]

Or, in German the halfling, the... with fire!

Great, now we either have Sideshow Lord Torath, or Peelee is going to want use-credit.

- M

[Tzardok]

I'm too slow, but I was going to suggest that Serini is "die Haflingin". Or maybe "die Halblingin" -- I'm not sure how far the translation out of English went, and my knowledge of German is faded in any event.

It's Halbling (respectively Halblingin or Halblingsfrau).

[Space Sorceress]

Thanks. Even if I don't get a reply back from the guy, I'm glad to know there's at least one person who's read the comment and thought about it. That's enough for me to know it wasn't a complete waste of time, so again thank you.

Me too. It was great.

Especially from the perspective of someone who occupies multiple minority groups and has both a physical disability and a mental illness.

It's one thing to talk about accommodation in the sense of finding a way to treat everyone absolutely equally, and another entirely to consider how people feel and what they want and need.

[Psyren]

So why is it ok to call Calder "Dragon"?

That words implies someone who greedily hoard riches and react violently to anyone who'd threaten or even touch the smallest ammount, after all.

Who, when speaking to Calder, referred to him as "Dragon?"

You would need to compare lifespans with a halfling without regeneration who had sustained the same injuries.

This is called a con-troll group.

*takes massive groan damage*
*starts making death saves*

DR/magic is considered Supernatural rather than Extraordinary and will be turned off in the antimagic field too.

Ahh, 3.5, I don't miss you...

[Doug Lampert]

So, now you know, if you need to make fun of someplace, it's the Intersection of Telegraph and Bancroft in Berkeley California. They're wierd there.

I think I was drunk there once. Also, Weird not Wierd. (For some reason).

I have thought about this some, and in the spirit of this thread I feel I must point out that I am dyslexic. This is of course a disability (pretty mild in my case, but, it is a disability).

You have insulted me by claiming that I can't spell based only on my disability and my inability to put the letters i and e in the correct order in English spelling, and this is based on my membership in a protected class.

Naturally, I will not admit to reading this thread while at work, HOWEVER, I remembered this insult today when I was in the office, and it thus created a pervasively hostile work environment hindering my ability to perform my job. I remembered it twice, so this occured on multiple occassions.

I will therefor be reporting KorvinStarmast to the EEOC as soon as I get a round tuit. Some might point out that KorvinStarmast has no employment relationship with me, to which I say, BAH! Korvin can be my boss or have another job related relationship without a contract (just like Elan and Roy), maybe he's a vendor or something.

Korvin has plainly set a horrible example for people everywhere with his blatant discriminatory behavior based on my disability, children read this comic, won't someone think of the children?!

Did I get that more or less correct?

[Mordar]

Did I get that more or less correct?

Well, yes...except that my librarian in 6th grade had the Round Tuit, so I don't think you can get it...so no filing for you.

Sorry!

- M

[Doug Lampert]

Well, yes...except that my librarian in 6th grade had the Round Tuit, so I don't think you can get it...so no filing for you.

Sorry!

- M

Drat!

Foiled again!

Maybe I can find an alternative? I could file as soon as I get a Doily but we know that V has that.

[bunsen_h]

My high school French teacher. And I don't remember her source.

Poking around the internet found French people saying that this version is an urban legend.

There's an old folk song about a dog named Blue. Maybe that's it?

[Crixus33]

Furthermore, if his surrender includes an exit or if he just flatly escapes, he likely runs into TE and continues to contribute that way. Either he strains the power struggle between Xykon and Redcloak, or maybe even manages to contribute to the MitD somehow.

I find this interesting. Perhaps Calder is in someway the leverage Durkon needs to convince Redcloak for his help. Since the Order of the Scribble ran into him, presumably it was on their quest to seal the rifts. Perhaps Calder has some knowledge of the Rifts and/or Snarl that could help sway Redcloak? What that would be I don't know since most of the relevant info is only known to the gods and what Thor has relayed to Durkon. But as an evil Dragon he would have no reason to side with the Order of the Stick (other than the sparing of his life) and thus maybe that is how his surrender is negotiated. Essentially, he has info and/or the "negotiating position" to help with Redcloak.

Or maybe it is just a cool fight as a set piece. It would be a shame for the dungeon to be hyped up for so long and see very little of it. For example, imo, it is a bit disappointing we didn't see Girard's Ziggurat at its prime fully illusioned.

Finally as the super longshot (since it wouldn't really fit into the themes of the comic), Calder is a mindbender as stated by Serini. Mayhaps he mind bends Redcloak into helping seal the rifts.

[No good @ names]

I love V’s expression while walking away from the Allosaurus vs Dragon wrestling match. Amazing what the Giant can convey in stick figures.

[The MunchKING]

It's interesting, but Xykon is immune to mind-altering spells, and narratively Redcloak can't be mind controlled for anything important as the story needs his decisions to be HIS to fulfill his arc regarding the fates of Goblinkind.

[KorvinStarmast]

Or, in German the halfling, the... with fire!

Das Halflingfrau

Did I get that more or less correct?

No.
I before E, except after C, or when sounding like A as in neighbor and weigh ... and the exceptions are of coursed raised up and illustrated.

Weird, isn't it?
Spelling that word wrongly, or incorrectly, has nothing to do with dyslexia.
It's an incredibly frequent spelling mistake. See also leisure... I mean, is it a lee-zhur suit or a Lazer Suit?
I get that you were going for a laugh, but you forgot the blue text

[Peelee]

I before E, except after C, or when sounding like A as in neighbor and weigh ...

Spoiler: Is it really fair to call them "exceptions"?

Show

[Space Sorceress]

why does english DO this

[Peelee]

why does english DO this

Hey, I had to learn it. You chose to learn it.

[Naysmith]

why does english DO this

There's ... history behind oddities of the English language.

And more on-topic, I feel that Calder definitely is more than just a "see how mighty the heroes are now" battle. Though he's certainly doing that, too.

[Waspinator]

Do we know how old a dragon Calder is? If I'm looking at the right tables, he's probably got a higher Strength than the dino, but he might've gotten some kind of penalty to the grapple because of the surprise factor.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Just a general tip of the hat to those who brought respectful and thoughtful ideas, agreements, disagreements, and dialogue in general to this thread. Even to the topics that are probably a bit off this specific comic.

Another thumbs up to the comment that took ten hours to write. I myself have composed some massive theorycrafting about the comic or about other things, and I never know if I'm screaming into the void or not, as I'm generally too distracted to keep up with all the threads I've ever responded to on the various forums I inhabit.

Kudos for caring about an idea that much. I feel our attention spans are quite limited at times, but giving a single topic ten hours of nonstop thought voluntarily and for no immediate benefit is really where our better thoughts do come from. Whether they're heard or not, understood or agreed with or not. Those are our better moments.

[Diachronos]

I've never begged for a reply before but I spent no joke 10 hours writing this comment, so please reply so I can know I didn't just waste half a day.

10 hours well-spent, my friend. I thought something fell over in my kitchen last night, but it must've been the mic drop that came with your post.

For page 1297, there was a long discussion about whether Calder casting the Polar Ray from his eyes indicated that he had a special feat or if it was just how Rich was going to depict such spells for bonus stylishness. But on page 1296, Calder cast from his hand/claw. So that does seem to suggest that Calder casting from his eyes involved actual game mechanics, which has implications for his minimum level. I don't know how the details work themselves out.

The spell lists that the Monster Manual has for dragons is just what they usually have at their disposal. There's nothing saying that they can't choose to master different spells.

And frankly, if a dragon is even remotely competent, they won't stick exclusively to spells of their own element. Anybody who's actively hunting a dragon is either an idiot, or has taken precautions against what sort of threats they expect the dragon to whip out.
If I'm going to be fighting a red dragon, I'm going to be using whatever fire resistance I can get my hands on so I don't get nuked by its breath weapon or die to whatever fire-based hazards its lair is likely filled with. I'm not going to be expecting it to whip out a bunch of lightning, acid, or (especially) cold damage.

That being said, there's always a possibility that Calder does have actual class levels on top of his natural HD, but we have no way of knowing that for sure unless Rich comes out and says so.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think the 3.5e MM even has listed spells known for dragons. Same for feats or skill ranks. You're kinda expected to customize them since they're probably a miniboss encounter at bare minimum.