Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

[Infernally Clay]

I And even if they somehow up camp and vanish into the galactic aether for a couple decades, you think they're going to come back and be popular? They're the losers who peaced out in a war, let planets burn, let the Republic fall, and you think people are going to be on their side?

Considering this is basically what they do anyway... Yoda hides on Dagobah for decades, Obi-Wan does the same on Tatooine, Cal Kestis basically shepards every Jedi he can to a planet that's impossible to reach so they can live without fear of the Empire. Aside from Ahsoka and Kanan, did any Jedi actively oppose the Empire? Or were they hiding and keeping their heads low and trying to survive?

You say the Jedi were too bound to the Republic to do anything else but that's the point. They shouldn't have been. One of the major issues people across the galaxy had with the Jedi Order was that they were slaves to a corrupt government, blindly following orders without questioning whether it was the right thing to do. This was not a sentiment that only developed after Palpatine took office, either. The corruption in the Senate and the Jedi Order's blindness to it were foundational issues that led to the loss in faith systems had in the Republic.

The Jedi Order should not exist to further the Republic's interests and it speaks volumes that the Jedi who did what was right, not what they were told to do, were considered mavericks and renegades. The Jedi had lost their way but they were too proud to admit they were no longer serving the light, but the greed and corruption of the Senate.

[KorvinStarmast]

As I recall that was a temporary battlefield promotion...didn't he die as a Colonel? Confirmed he was only an Lt. Colonel. Dropped from Major General back down to Captain in the regulars, then built up to Lt Col.

Doug handled most of this. He was still wearing stars when running amok in the Shanendoah under Sheridan, and near the end of the war. After the demobilization, yes, reverted to regular rank. Which sort of thing points to how it's only a little bit applicable to Anakin's situation, since he only grows in power as time goes on. He doesn't revert.

Why would they do that? They don't know that Palpatine is a Sith Lord or even antagonistic towards them. That only makes sense if theyve seen the movies and are trying to do something different.

Good "in world" argument, Dr Watson. +1

The Jedi do not have that hindsight, and they are deeply enmeshed in the Republic in a way that makes them hesitant to abandon it.

Which makes narrative sense, in world.

You can't be neutral in a war declared against you.

I suppose you can try, but it won't end well.

[Mordar]

Doug handled most of this. He was still wearing stars when running amok in the Shanendoah under Sheridan, and near the end of the war. After the demobilization, yes, reverted to regular rank. Which sort of thing points to how it's only a little bit applicable to Anakin's situation, since he only grows in power as time goes on. He doesn't revert.
Good "in world" argument, Dr Watson. +1
Which makes narrative sense, in world.
I suppose you can try, but it won't end well.

Power and Rank don't always correlate, though. But to apply it to SW...I wonder how Anakin would have taken things if Windu finished Sidious (note: not entirely sure Sidious wasn't playing Windu a bit there anyway), then with the war wrapped up he was reverted back to Knight and off the council.

Jedi could also have chosen not to lead because of their established non-leadership, non-military stance...not just because they read the script. I don't think their nature would allow that, though, and you know my take on how Sidious played natures like fiddles.

They could have taken to rooting out sedition and treason and left the battlefield to the Clones...and/or went full on Commando and focused on trying to throw 4-inch pipes through Dooku and Grevious...but they didn't.

Well, that would make a short war in most cases.

- M

[pendell]

For those arguing about Anakin as a general and being young ... this has an interesting parallel in history ...

Spoiler: similar but different

Show

...George Armstrong Custer was promoted to Brigadier General at the age of 23 due to his being very good at leading cavalry

... that also had an unhappy ending when all was said and done.

(IIRC, Alexander the Great was in charge of armies in either his late teens or early 20's ... so maybe this is a case of "age is a number" or something like that).

In terms of the spoilery, I think it had a lot more to do that the army of which he was a member grew rather abruptly from the tens of thousands of regular soldiers, spread over thousands of miles of frontier, to a million-plus continent-conquering behemoth in less than five years. Commissioned officers were in short supply. He was brevetted to the rank and was allowed to use it as a courtesy title thereafter, but when he was killed he had reverted to his permanent rank, lieutenant colonel. He was competent, yes, but I've never heard him described as brilliant. Certainly his last military campaign would argue against brilliance, at least against nonconventional foes.

Taking this back to Anakin, of course officers can be fast-tracked to promotion due to political connections or other considerations beyond pure merit. Anakin had a view of his own competence which, objectively, was not warranted. He is stronger in the Force and far more capable as a hero than any of the other Jedi but A) it takes more than heroism to get on the council. As the council's leader said, "wars not make one great". B) The Jedi council already has its quota of dashing heroes in terms of Mace Windu, Yoda, others. It's not as if his viewpoint is unique or particularly interesting. Even so, Palpatine is flattering Anakin and this promotion he is proposing serves the primary purpose of driving a wedge between Anakin and the other Jedi.

Not to mention, Obi-Wan isn't on the council himself and doesn't have master rank. It is to his credit that he doesn't resent Anakin's elevation past him.

The Jedi Council resents Palpatine using his influence to elevate Anakin to a position he hasn't earned ,at least by their lights.

Really, it's a master-stroke of the Dark Side. Palpatine leverages Anakin's pride and ambition against the Council's resentment to inflame tensions and bring Anakin ever closer to his orbit. It just goes to show, so long as you're interacting primarily through the Dark Side, Palpatine is undefeatable.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mechalich]

Not to mention, Obi-Wan isn't on the council himself and doesn't have master rank. It is to his credit that he doesn't resent Anakin's elevation past him.

No. Obi-Wan is on the Council and holds the rank of master.

Obi-Wan was placed on the Council immediately following AotC. He replaced Coleman Trebor who died at Geonosis.

Taking this back to Anakin, of course officers can be fast-tracked to promotion due to political connections or other considerations beyond pure merit. Anakin had a view of his own competence which, objectively, was not warranted. He is stronger in the Force and far more capable as a hero than any of the other Jedi but A) it takes more than heroism to get on the council. As the council's leader said, "wars not make one great". B) The Jedi council already has its quota of dashing heroes in terms of Mace Windu, Yoda, others. It's not as if his viewpoint is unique or particularly interesting. Even so, Palpatine is flattering Anakin and this promotion he is proposing serves the primary purpose of driving a wedge between Anakin and the other Jedi.

Anakin is the best command rank officer in the Clone Wars on either side, Jedi or otherwise. The only person against whom it's even a close comparison is Obi-Wan, and Anakin is significantly better at unconventional ploys and has a better rapport with the clones than Obi-Wan does. His viewpoint - as several pages in this very thread have worked quite hard to establish - is absolutely both unique, interesting, and extremely valuable.

By any measure based on Anakin's accomplishments he easily deserves a Council Seat. Now, it is entirely correct that his personality flaws and flawed relationship to the Force means he is not ready, but at the same time the nature of those limitations mean Anakin is inherently incapable of realizing this. At the same time it is the Jedi Council's flaws that make it impossible for them to explain this to him is a way that avoids escalating internal tensions. They are unable to 'let him down easy.' Palpatine, of course, is aware of both sets of flaws. His scheme relies primarily on Anakin to be sure, but it also relies on his knowledge of the Jedi Order's structural failings.

[Peelee]

By any measure based on Anakin's accomplishments he easily deserves a Council Seat.

OK. Let's use the measure of "good at introspection and contemplation instead of just pure warrior and strategic capability".

[pendell]

No. Obi-Wan is on the Council and holds the rank of master.

Obi-Wan was placed on the Council immediately following AotC. He replaced Coleman Trebor who died at Geonosis.

I stand corrected, thank you.

By any measure based on Anakin's accomplishments he easily deserves a Council Seat. Now, it is entirely correct that his personality flaws and flawed relationship to the Force means he is not ready, but at the same time the nature of those limitations mean Anakin is inherently incapable of realizing this. At the same time it is the Jedi Council's flaws that make it impossible for them to explain this to him is a way that avoids escalating internal tensions. They are unable to 'let him down easy.' Palpatine, of course, is aware of both sets of flaws. His scheme relies primarily on Anakin to be sure, but it also relies on his knowledge of the Jedi Order's structural failings.

His accomplishments entitle him to accolades not to either rank or responsibility he is unprepared for. He absolutely deserves the rank of general, which he possesses. The Council's job, however, is running the entire Jedi Order. That requires a degree of wisdom and attunement to the light side of the force he simply doesn't have; he's too passionate, too reckless, too young to be trusted to make those kinds of decisions. Look at all the conflict and emotional troubles he has with his marriage and with his family; one of those results in a massacre of an indigenous village on Tatooine. That , by itself, absolutely disqualifies him from any kind of master rank. For that matter, his secret marriage is absolutely another reason he's got no business on the council -- not only is it impacting his judgement, it's causing him to lose perspective.

I recently played through a war game in which one of the subordinate officers is a paladin. He's absolutely the person you want leading a cavalry charge or in command of the rear guard, but you must never, ever take his advice on strategy or you will lose. Sort of like Reepicheep in "Voyage of the Dawn Treader". He played chess with Lucy and would occasionally forget himself, begin thinking like a heroic knight rather than a cool-headed general. Whenever he did this, he lost every single time.

Anakin is well-suited to be a general and battlefield commander. When it comes to governing the Jedi Order, however, he is far out of his depth. He would be over-promoted in that role, and everyone on the Council knows it except him.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mordar]

Anakin is the best command rank officer in the Clone Wars on either side, Jedi or otherwise. The only person against whom it's even a close comparison is Obi-Wan, and Anakin is significantly better at unconventional ploys and has a better rapport with the clones than Obi-Wan does. His viewpoint - as several pages in this very thread have worked quite hard to establish - is absolutely both unique, interesting, and extremely valuable.

By any measure based on Anakin's accomplishments he easily deserves a Council Seat. Now, it is entirely correct that his personality flaws and flawed relationship to the Force means he is not ready, but at the same time the nature of those limitations mean Anakin is inherently incapable of realizing this. At the same time it is the Jedi Council's flaws that make it impossible for them to explain this to him is a way that avoids escalating internal tensions. They are unable to 'let him down easy.' Palpatine, of course, is aware of both sets of flaws. His scheme relies primarily on Anakin to be sure, but it also relies on his knowledge of the Jedi Order's structural failings.

Legitimate question - is he the best command rank officer, or the best warrior?

Anakin's accomplishments are 100% military...the Council is not a military body. Excelling (either as a warrior, commander, or both) at the first doesn't hold much value in determining membership for the second. Even if the Council were a military body, in the modern era does the best infantry soldier suddenly get moved to Joint Chiefs?

- M

[Errorname]

Power and Rank don't always correlate, though. But to apply it to SW...I wonder how Anakin would have taken things if Windu finished Sidious then with the war wrapped up he was reverted back to Knight and off the council.

I think even without Palpatine being a Sith Lord and Order 66 in the cards the end of the Clone Wars was going to be rough for the Jedi order. Anakin is the most prominent and most dangerous, but a lot of Jedi have fallen into distinctly non-Jedi states of mind as a result of the war and I think there's a real risk of a schism.

(note: not entirely sure Sidious wasn't playing Windu a bit there anyway)

I find it less compelling if Sidious was completely in-control the whole time. Schemers like him are more fun when they have plans that could have failed rather than being so powerful there's no real possibility of defeat.

Obi-Wan was placed on the Council immediately following AotC. He replaced Coleman Trebor who died at Geonosis.

Man, Anakin should have known that military prowess had nothing to do with your position on the council if that doofus was a council member and a master.

Legitimate question - is he the best command rank officer, or the best warrior?

Anakin's accomplishments are 100% military...the Council is not a military body. Excelling (either as a warrior, commander, or both) at the first doesn't hold much value in determining membership for the second. Even if the Council were a military body, in the modern era does the best infantry soldier suddenly get moved to Joint Chiefs?

He's certainly not infantry. Anakin gets a high-level strategic command on some of the most important campaigns of the war working as an equal to the council members. I don't know about best, frankly a lot of Clone Wars tactics and strategy don't really hold up to scrutiny, but I do think we're meant to understand him as an impressive general with a keen strategic mind.

[gbaji]

Eh, Jedi Councilmembers go off on assignment all the time and still fulfill their duties. Several councilmembers at that meeting are attending virtually, and the guys they send to Wookie Planet and after Grievous are both councilmembers.

The reason they keep Anakin around is that they think deploying the person with divided loyalties as a spy against his surrogate father figure is a good idea.

Either way, the point is that by appointing Anakin to be his representative on the council, Palpatine virtually assured that Anakin would remain on Coruscant while the last bits of the war wound down (specifically Grievous being hunted down and killed). If we assume that Palpatine's intent was to turn on the Jedi at that same point in time, using some pretext to force their hand against him, and then using that to declare them enemies of the state and enact Order 66, then it makes sense for him to want Anakin to be nearby for that so as to maximize his odds of forcing Anakin into choosing a side (and thus potentially gaining a new Sith Lord apprentice).

Of course, since Palpatine has the advantage of "this is a prequel where we're writing how he came to power in the first place", everything kinda goes exactly according to plan and he both gets his justification to outlaw the Jedi *and* gets himself a shiny new Sith apprentice. But the sequence is at least well written enough to show that he was hedging his bets and manipulating things to make them turn out to his advantage, rather than just randomly getting lucky.

Irrespective of anything else, neutrality stopped being an option once they learned that Count Dooku was in charge and specifically intending to act with hostility to the Jedi. You can't be neutral in a war declared against you.

Yup. I actually went back and re-watched the entire sequence in AotC, to see exactly what Dooku and the various Separatists said about this, and it was clear that their intention was to defeat the Jedi. They assumed that this would be necessary for them to succeed, so they built the army specifically to fight and kill the Jedi.

I think it's also relevant to point out that while Dooku tells Kenobi that there's a Sith presence corrupting and controlling the Senate, Kenobi does not believe him (and has good reason to given that not long after that Dooku is seen sporting a red lightsaber blade). The Jedi assume that the Sith are behind the Separatist movement, and allowing it to happen will be a disaster. So it's kind of a self fulfilling bit there. The Jedi have no choice but to fight against the Separatists. The Separtists build their army to fight the Jedi (assuming that the Jedi will try to stop them). And as result, conflict involving the Jedi is ensured. And that's where the Clone army comes in, since the Jedi alone can't defeat the Separatist Army.

How convenient that the one guy who is telling the Separatists that the Jedi will attack, so they must build this massive army to have any hope to succeed, is the same guy telling the Jedi what appears to be a lie about the Sith in the Senate (but is actually the truth), while reinforcing that apparent lie by revealing himself to have embraced the Dark Side (thus ensuring the Jedi will attack just as he told his Separatist allies that they would), *and* is also behind the same trojan horse Clone Army which is the only means by which those same Jedi have any hope of actually defeating the massive Separatist droid army. Hmmm.... Sneaky, right?

The Jedi could not risk allowing about 2/5ths of the systems in the galaxy to come under Sith rule, so they had no choice but to involve themselves in the conflict. And that's exactly what Dooku (well Palpatine really) was banking on.

I find it less compelling if Sidious was completely in-control the whole time. Schemers like him are more fun when they have plans that could have failed rather than being so powerful there's no real possibility of defeat.

Yeah. I get that as well. But honestly? Every time I watch that scene of Palpatine "struggling" against Windu, blasting force lightning out there, and having it reflected back, in a stalemate, and then crying out about how he's getting weaker, and "oh no! I can't hold him back much longer...!".

OMG! The only thing missing was Palpatine turning and winking at the camera. It was that much of a faked show to me. When I see that sequence I seriously get flashbacks to PeeWee Herman's death scene in Buffy the Vampire slayer (complete with "eh! ah!... Owwww..." and freaking kicking a bucket). It's just too much over the top with Palpatine playing the weak victim to get Anakin to have to act to "save him".

Sorry. I just can't watch that scene and get anything out of it other than the whole thing was staged by Palpatine.

[Keltest]

Palpatine is clearly hamming it up for Anakin's benefit, but that doesnt mean that he isn't genuinely in a bind there if Anakin doesn't help him. Dooku is dead, Palpatine is at this point counting on Anakin to be his apprentice. Absent Anakin's intervention, its entirely likely that Mace Windu eventually just overpowers him on his own, and if Anakin actually helps Windu, then Palpatine is done, period.

[Mordar]

I find it less compelling if Sidious was completely in-control the whole time. Schemers like him are more fun when they have plans that could have failed rather than being so powerful there's no real possibility of defeat.

For sure - I have repeatedly said Sidious' plan was 15 seconds from failing...the only sneaking suspicion part here is that I sometimes can't just accept video game logic. Windu lets Sidious kill the 3 mooks and then dances him around the room fully defensive, but a short time later even while still recovering from that whupping is able to fight Yoda to at worst a draw. Sure, Mace is a better fighter than Yoda, but still - this is one of those times when you scratch your head and wonder why he couldn't do that move back on level 7 when it would have saved 30 minutes of game time and 16 hours of real time.

He's certainly not infantry. Anakin gets a high-level strategic command on some of the most important campaigns of the war working as an equal to the council members. I don't know about best, frankly a lot of Clone Wars tactics and strategy don't really hold up to scrutiny, but I do think we're meant to understand him as an impressive general with a keen strategic mind.

By infantry I meant fighting in the front lines - there is plenty of tactical leadership there (which I think was Anakin's forte vs strategic leadership), not that he was "enlisted" or "just another dumb grunt".

- M

[Errorname]

Either way, the point is that by appointing Anakin to be his representative on the council, Palpatine virtually assured that Anakin would remain on Coruscant while the last bits of the war wound down (specifically Grievous being hunted down and killed).

Eh, I don't think so? I think the Jedi still try the incredibly dumb spy idea without the appointment, and instant faster than light communication means there's nothing stopping councilmembers on off-planet assignments from fulfilling their duties.

Yeah. I get that as well. But honestly? Every time I watch that scene of Palpatine "struggling" against Windu, blasting force lightning out there, and having it reflected back, in a stalemate, and then crying out about how he's getting weaker, and "oh no! I can't hold him back much longer...!"

Palpatine can be acting to try and play on Anakin's sympathies in that moment while still being in actual genuine danger. Like it's possible he can turn that fight around, but him getting his face melted probably was not the plan.

By infantry I meant fighting in the front lines - there is plenty of tactical leadership there (which I think was Anakin's forte vs strategic leadership), not that he was "enlisted" or "just another dumb grunt".

All of the Jedi fight on the front lines, even Yoda and Mace, but they're still generals. That's not even without precedent in human history, we don't do it anymore because modern warfare is so dangerous that you can't risk it but Jedi are much more able to survive attacks from high-lethality ranged weapons.

[Infernally Clay]

…but Jedi are much more able to survive attacks from high-lethality ranged weapons...

Ironically enough, thanks to Anakin. According to Rebels, he developed the modified version of Form IV that the Jedi Order used in the war. That’s probably a big part of why the Jedi went from getting slaughtered at Geonosis to being able to each handle hundreds of droids pretty effortlessly.

[KorvinStarmast]

Power and Rank don't always correlate, though. But to apply it to SW...I wonder how Anakin would have taken things if Windu finished Sidious (note: not entirely sure Sidious wasn't playing Windu a bit there anyway), then with the war wrapped up he was reverted back to Knight and off the council.

- M

That's a plausible story arc, but the problems with the Prequels weren't "how do we keep The Chosen One From Becoming Darth Vader" but "how do we run three movies to show how Darth Vader became who he is in the Eps 4, 5, and 6." And yes, Windu taking out Sidious and then putting Anakin back into normal Jedi ops so that he matures would be a good story. It just wasn't the story that would lead to what they needed it to.

, but I've never heard him described as brilliant. Certainly his last military campaign would argue against brilliance,

Nor did I call him brilliant. He had two outstanding attributes that his peers and superiors recognized:
1. He know how to lead and employ Cavalry; that's a particular skill that not all officers have. 2. He was bold. <= That was in somewhat short supply on the Union side (particularly in McClelland's case).

Spoiler: More Detail

Show

His success and his boldness inform some of his shortcomings in his ultimate campaign (he was working as part of a three pronged move) and also informed the amount of trouble he got into after the Civil War during his various campaigns in the West.

Taking this back to Anakin, of course officers can be fast-tracked to promotion due to political connections or other considerations beyond pure merit. Anakin had a view of his own competence which, objectively, was not warranted. He is stronger in the Force and far more capable as a hero than any of the other Jedi but A) it takes more than heroism to get on the council. As the council's leader said, "wars not make one great". B) The Jedi council already has its quota of dashing heroes in terms of Mace Windu, Yoda, others.

Yes. Anakin certainly has the "it's all about me" character that Custer's post Civil War career also showed.

Not to mention, Obi-Wan isn't on the council himself and doesn't have master rank. It is to his credit that he doesn't resent Anakin's elevation past him.

That's a plus for Obi Wan.

As to the council, they had the means to stop that but chose to simply be resentful: yeah, good way to lose.

[Errorname]

That's a plausible story arc, but the problems with the Prequels weren't "how do we keep The Chosen One From Becoming Darth Vader" but "how do we run three movies to show how Darth Vader became who he is in the Eps 4, 5, and 6." And yes, Windu taking out Sidious and then putting Anakin back into normal Jedi ops so that he matures would be a good story. It just wasn't the story that would lead to what they needed it to.

I don't think anyone here thinks "What if the Jedi stopped Sidious" was ever a viable way the Prequels could have gone. We're debating what the characters might have done differently to avert the tragedy

[LibraryOgre]

I don't think anyone here thinks "What if the Jedi stopped Sidious" was ever a viable way the Prequels could have gone. We're debating what the characters might have done differently to avert the tragedy

"Have you ever heard of the tragedy of Darth Vader the Broken? It is not a tale the Sith would tell you..."

[KorvinStarmast]

We're debating what the characters might have done differently to avert the tragedy

Why? That's not the story that was written. Tragedy is a part of the story. For the prequels, it is the core arc. To avert the tragedy is to delete the story.

@LibraryOgre: yes, that's an interesting way to open the prequels, but they didn't. More is the pity.

[Infernally Clay]

I don't think anyone here thinks "What if the Jedi stopped Sidious" was ever a viable way the Prequels could have gone. We're debating what the characters might have done differently to avert the tragedy

It would be more accurate to say that we're discussing what the Jedi Order may or may not have done wrong to allow events to play out the way they did, since some people seem pretty adamant that they did nothing wrong at all and were simply outmanoeuvred by Palpatine at every step.

What ifs are largely irrelevant when discussing prequels because they have to lead to a predetermined narrative. Palpatine has to become Emperor of the Galactic Empire, the Jedi have to fall, Anakin has to become Darth Vader...

[LibraryOgre]

I view it as more or less playing the game "What if you could be 17 again, knowing what you know now? What would you do?" but the question is instead "What if it was BBY 25 again, and you know what you know now? What would you do, Master Windu?"

[Mechalich]

It would be more accurate to say that we're discussing what the Jedi Order may or may not have done wrong to allow events to play out the way they did, since some people seem pretty adamant that they did nothing wrong at all and were simply outmanoeuvred by Palpatine at every step.

There does seem to be a lot of trouble accepting a multi-casual explanation for the fall of the Republic and rise of the Empire. I identify at least four major causes:

1. Structural factors impacting the nature of galactic governance in the late post-Russan period.
2. The diabolical machinations of Palpatine and his immediate Sith predecessors.
3. Anakin Skywalker's specific collection of character flaws.
4. Structural factors impacting the Jedi Order and blind-spots resulting from the same.

And that's in order of importance. Jedi culpability is way, way down the list and the Senate, collectively and across the spread of generations, has more responsibility for what goes on then everyone else put together. From well before the opening crawl of TPM rolls a massive galactic conflict is inevitable. The Sith both make it worse and make it work for them. Anakin allows the Sith specifically, rather than some other evil, to triumph. The Jedi put Anakin in the position to do so.

Now, because of the way the Force works in Star Wars, it is possible for destiny to overcome structural failures. If the Jedi had managed to position Anakin even slightly differently, it's possible that everything would have shifted and a glorious restoration of the Republic could have occurred, even though such a thing only has a 0.01% chance of happening based on an analysis of the trends. As such, even though the Jedi Order's responsibility is comparatively very small, it still contributes to doom.

[Errorname]

Why? That's not the story that was written. Tragedy is a part of the story. For the prequels, it is the core arc. To avert the tragedy is to delete the story.

Do I need to explain why people enjoy discussing stories? Or that by discussing "how could this story have turned out differently" we are not deleting the story, but rather engaging with it and it's characters. Especially for a tragedy, I think hope that the tragedy might be averted is an important part of stories like this, the moments where it feels like it might work out okay.

It would be more accurate to say that we're discussing what the Jedi Order may or may not have done wrong to allow events to play out the way they did, since some people seem pretty adamant that they did nothing wrong at all and were simply outmanoeuvred by Palpatine at every step.

Yeah, "how possible was it for these characters to save themselves" is something that matters in terms of how you view a character. Did they commit no mistakes and still lose because the game was rigged against them, or did some flaw in their character cause them to make a mistake at a key moment?

And that's in order of importance. Jedi culpability is way, way down the list and the Senate, collectively and across the spread of generations, has more responsibility for what goes on then everyone else put together. From well before the opening crawl of TPM rolls a massive galactic conflict is inevitable. The Sith both make it worse and make it work for them. Anakin allows the Sith specifically, rather than some other evil, to triumph. The Jedi put Anakin in the position to do so.

It feels like the Jedi get blamed more because they were actively working to stop this and failed, it means that creating the Empire is their fail-state where for Palpatine it's a win-state. Palpatine could save the republic effortlessly if his heart suddenly grew three sizes, but it's not interesting to discuss because it'd be too easy since he's the guy causing all the problems.

[Peelee]

Did they commit no mistakes and still lose because the game was rigged against them, or did some flaw in their character cause them to make a mistake at a key moment?

Imean, has anyone (at least, in this thread) claimed the Jedi made no mistakes or did nothing wrong?

[Errorname]

Imean, has anyone (at least, in this thread) claimed the Jedi made no mistakes or did nothing wrong?

No, but that wasn't really meant to be about them, it's more broadly talking about characters in tragedies.

[Peelee]

No, but that wasn't really meant to be about them, it's more broadly talking about characters in tragedies.

Ah. Yeah, that's fair.

[Mechalich]

It feels like the Jedi get blamed more because they were actively working to stop this and failed, it means that creating the Empire is their fail-state where for Palpatine it's a win-state. Palpatine could save the republic effortlessly if his heart suddenly grew three sizes, but it's not interesting to discuss because it'd be too easy since he's the guy causing all the problems.

I don't actually think Palpatine could save the Republic effortlessly, the structural problems go too deep. Also, if he suddenly pulled a 180 many of his allies, catspaws, stooges, and so forth would betray him and strike out on their own, since their interests would no longer align with Palpatine's. Like most would-be dictators, Palpatine's made all kinds of promises in the Senate to people and he has to keep those promises or face a massive backlash (most of these people either eventually are satisfied as Moffs, Generals, etc. or get purged, but prior to becoming Empire, Palpatine is balanced atop a house of cards). Also, by the time TPM begins the various factions that come to make up the CIS are going to start a massive conflict, of some kind, eventually, there's simply nothing the Republic could possibly do to meet their demands and peaceful secession is not viable - someone will start a localized conflict and it will spiral out of control. The result would almost certainly be far, far less expansive than the Clone Wars, but there would still be a big war. Which is not to say that he could not save the Republic, but it would be really, really hard.

The broader problem is that Star Wars is both uninterested in addressing the political situation with any detail and tends to be really terrible at it when they try. The Coruscant-focused episode in Mandalorian, where Dr. Pershing gets his mind erased by the mole because everyone leaves the room and there's apparently no security record of the procedure, is comically bad in terms of portraying competence by the authorities, and this is hardly an exception.

The scale of the Star Wars galaxy is such that imagining a properly functioning government is challenging all on its own, but getting even small-scale stuff right seems to be anathema to Star Wars creators. Pretty much every representative of the Republic, in any capacity, is either incompetent or corrupt. It's very frustrating.

[Peelee]

I don't actually think Palpatine could save the Republic effortlessly, the structural problems go too deep.

I dunno, i think it depends on just how many corrupt Galactic Republic politicians he's willing to murder.

[Infernally Clay]

Pretty much every representative of the Republic, in any capacity, is either incompetent or corrupt. It's very frustrating.

To be fair that’s kinda by design. A major issue Star Wars has is its nonlinear storytelling means a lot of material is filling in blanks after the fact and things have to start badly for the heroes if they’re to overcome the enemy and save the galaxy.

So from the very beginning, the Senate had to be lazy, incompetent or corrupt otherwise how do you explain that they were seemingly complicit in a galaxy-spanning Empire that was tyrannical and ruthless? To say that Empire was a moustache-twirling villain would be underselling it, yet the Senate existed for almost twenty years under Palpatine’s rule. That meant the Senate had to have sucked even before Palpatine reformed the Republic into the Empire and that’s what the prequels show us. We see first hand that the Republic has very few legitimately good politicians and most of them are just out for themselves, which Palpatine is able to take full advantage of.

The Mandalorian era shows have a similar problem. The Force Awakens portrays the Senate as so bad at their jobs that the First Order is able to operate with impunity for decades, kidnapping newborn children like Finn and indoctrinating them into a more radical and extremist version of the Empire. Turns out Palpatine survived Return of the Jedi and this is all part of some decades-long plan to undermine the New Republic so the people of the galaxy welcome the Empire back with open arms, so what does The Mandalorian era shows have to do? Show how much the New Republic sucked, how Imperial remnants were always active and the good guys - including the heroes of the Rebellion - did nothing to stop them.

[Mechalich]

I dunno, i think it depends on just how many corrupt Galactic Republic politicians he's willing to murder.

The funny thing is that he did that, under the Empire, and it didn't work. This strongly suggests that while the Republic still functioned and the tools available to Palpatine were significantly less draconian (in Legends, Mara Jade was allowed to pretty much freely murder anyone in the Empire based on her personal determination that they were sufficiently corrupt), his ability to control corruption was rather limited.

A big part of the problem is that the Chancellor has very little control over the Senate's membership. The Senate appears to draw up the systems that determines which territories or collection of territories (traditionally a sector, though some worlds like Alderaan get their own Senator because they're special, and certain corporate groups hold enough territory to get their own Senators too, like Lott Dodd of the Trade Federation), with each constituency producing its own Senator. And there does not seem to be any requirement at all that the Senator be voted into office. Numerous Senators are appointed by corporations, oligarchs, or even straight up monarchs.

Interestingly, we do know that Palpatine chose instead to simply bypass the Senate entirely. The Sector Governance Decree (which is part of those deleted RotS scenes) was used to bypass the Senate in favor of the Moffs, who Palpatine arranged to appoint himself and therefore could control. Tyrannical though this move was, drastically increasing federalism within the Republic was an essential move, and this choice, more than anything else, is responsible for such administrative successes and efficiencies as the Empire produced. Something like this, only using democracy, would probably have been necessary to save the Republic, but the chances of it passing the Senate at any point after 32 BBY without a massive war happening are basically nil.

So from the very beginning, the Senate had to be lazy, incompetent or corrupt otherwise how do you explain that they were seemingly complicit in a galaxy-spanning Empire that was tyrannical and ruthless? To say that Empire was a moustache-twirling villain would be underselling it, yet the Senate existed for almost twenty years under Palpatine’s rule. That meant the Senate had to have sucked even before Palpatine reformed the Republic into the Empire and that’s what the prequels show us. We see first hand that the Republic has very few legitimately good politicians and most of them are just out for themselves, which Palpatine is able to take full advantage of.

The thing is, the Senate can suck without everyone being corrupt, incompetent, or both. Institutions can fail even while almost every member of that institution is generally doing their best to make it succeed at their goals. Star Wars has a very bad tendency to try and convert all institutional failures into personal ones. For example, rather than having genuine ideological disagreements, we get a pro-platitude and a pro-tyranny side in the government (ex. the Disney New Republic introduced two factions only to have one of them be wholly subverted by the First Order).

And I get that fictional governments are hard, but in Star Wars it often feels like no one is trying.

[Lord Raziere]

It would be more accurate to say that we're discussing what the Jedi Order may or may not have done wrong to allow events to play out the way they did, since some people seem pretty adamant that they did nothing wrong at all and were simply outmanoeuvred by Palpatine at every step.

Agreed with you, is my short response. Jedi Order did do wrong.

My thoughts on this (long):
Palpatine outmaneuvering the entire Jedi Order is completely ridiculous. Any explanation for this that requires DBZ logic or Conservation of Ninjutsu to explain just doesn't hold water when analyzing from a narrative perspective.

I mean what are we to believe from these people who think the Jedi can do no wrong? That Palpatine can see so far into the future and in such detail that he can move in lockstep with every event to make sure it all plays out as planned years in advance? If that was the case, why didn't he use this future vision in the Original trilogy to stop the Rebellion from happening? Why didn't he foresee how Luke would turn Vader against him? the supposed great planner stops planning when he has all the power and just starts using force. should we really believe Lucas that Palpatine's mentor used the force to make Anakin? after all, why would a Sith lord make some random kid on a random planet on the outer rim that could only factor into anyone's plans if someone accidentally landed there found him, brought him to Coruscant and so on...

when we could go Death of the Author, and say much more reasonably.....Palpatine lied about that. Schmi Skywalker in turn didn't actually birth a chosen one but spoke vaguely because she doesn't want relive a trauma and Quigon didn't want to press on details of a father that wasn't in the picture, Anakin's just a normal kid with an oddly high midichlorian count- that is just a thing that can happen even if its incredibly improbable! it didn't seem to particularly affect how good Anakin was at the Force after all, supposedly he's more powerful and blah blah but he ends up looking like any other jedi. Show, don't tell after all and.....Anakin's greater power was never shown. heck, he loses to Dooku, to Obi-Wan, second Obi-Wan fight Obi-wan literally lets Anakin kill him, for a supposedly powerful jedi he doesn't have a good track record of winning fights against other jedi.

And.....what is Anakin's actual importance to Palpatine's plan again? No seriously, how is he important? Palpatine already set up this situation where he's playing both Republic and Separatists against each other, and can rule from either side's victory. He has the Order 66 plan in place, it clearly doesn't require Anakin to kill all the Jedi himself, the only time Anakin is important to making Palpatine succeed where we would've failed....is the part where he lets the Jedi know about Palpatine being Sith, and that one moment with Windu. Thats it. if Anakin had simply done nothing in the latter, Windu would've won and the galaxy would be saved. that doesn't require a super-long-future vision or whatever to pull off, that just requires a small future vision and a few lies to make sure one frustrated jedi knight does what he wants in one moment. the events of Episode II? doesn't matter if Anakin's involved, really. Palpatine is making that war happen regardless and the only reason Anakin goes to Geonosis is that Obi-Wan went there first, at no point does Palpatine need Anakin specifically to go there, he just needs a JEDI to go there. he might not even need that, when your running both sides, starting a war can occur in a number of ways and how it exactly begins isn't terribly important if that side is disposable.

no the reason we think Anakin is a chosen one or important in the first place....is because of the Jedi themselves. specifically because of Qui-gon who pushed for it, the Council if they had their way at the start wouldn't have even let Anakin in. What if Anakin never joined? Obi-Wan gets assigned to bodyguard Senator Padme in episode II, probably with some other apprentice. either the apprentice is similar enough to Anakin that events play out mostly the same except probably without the romance, or Padme dies, Obi-wan's investigations lead to the Separatists and the war starts anyways, Episode III, Palpatine either gets kidnapped the Separatists win and he controls things from the shadows, or Anakin doesn't exist and thus the Council is never told about Palpatine being sith in the first place and Palpatine just executes Order 66 anyways at an opportune time to catch them off guard, then in the original trilogy the force chooses someone else to be force-sensitive and overthrow the empire.

so.....Anakin is shown to be.... completely unimportant. Palpatine only thinks he's important because the Jedi thinks he's important. The Jedi only think he's important because Qui-gonn thinks he's important. Qui-gon only encountered Anakin in the first place because of a few laser shots from a Trade Federation orbital space station. neither Jedi on board saw this coming, none of the Council saw it coming clearly, there's no reason to assume Palpatine would foresee that either. the prophecy is never stated and does not seem to state anything about the chosen one being found after a ship having to make an unplanned landing, because surely if he really was the chosen one, the prophecy would state a detail like that, leave no room for doubt- but instead we get Mace Windu going "you believe this is the chosen one to bring balance to the force?" key word: BELIEVE. Not know. and then he dies. so....this entire chosen one business occurred because Qui-gon found a biological curiosity that has no relevance to anything and dangled it in front of the Council who when he kicked it, decided "we need a replacement for him, eh lets let the kid train under Obi-Wan and treat him like any other Jedi" just completely lazily despite their earlier protests, so clearly even the Jedi don't fully believe he's the chosen one either because if they did, wouldn't they recognize that this a special case? that maybe this particular Jedi needed to be prepared for things other Jedi won't? or that his particular circumstances might require some different handling to make sure he is fully on board? Nope. he is treated like any other Jedi, given orders like any other Jedi, they don't even mention or discuss Anakin's status after the first movie. Its as if that conversation with Qui-gon never happened aside from Obi-Wan referencing it at the end of episode III when he says he was supposed to bring balance, not destroy it.

This is not the usual way chosen one stories go, because.....usually....you have a bunch of people throughout the protagonists story affirming their important over and over again and how its important they make right the decisions and so on because they're the Chosen One and whatnot. that sort of nonsense. just look ATLA to see that being done well. we don't get that with Anakin, he's trust treated....like any other Jedi. so Palpatine, being mastermind super-liar supreme should know this, should know he's not actually important....because all he's used for is one moment to save his life for a promise of magical medical that he doesn't have to fulfill, thats practically free. thats not a masterstroke thats a gimme. then he just sends Vader to be his Force-thug throughout the galaxy even though Anakin no longer has any reason to obey him, technically? all he ever fought for is dead, so I guess Vader's just living out his latent rule by strength tyrant fantasies from episode II by then. so more probably, Palpatine just saw Anakin was emotionally manipulable and had inflated feelings of importance and thus took advantage of that- not a hard manipulation to pull off.

So it kinda becomes as far as masterminding goes, can Palpatine really mastermind what is essentially the entire galaxy by himself to create the conditions that lead to his rise? Well lets see, Dooku has to be in on the plan at the very least- he needs someone competent to run the other side, so this isn't really a one-man job, its at the very least a two-man con. the real problem comes when it comes to the engineering of the existence of the Separatists themselves. no matter how great of a mastermind you are, I don't believe you can make a galaxy-spanning secessionist faction from a galaxy-spanning happy republic all on your own within what, ten years? not even in your lifetime. No manipulator, no matter how great can just flip an entire culture or planet or nation or whatever into being secessionists or whatever, can just turn the light off from happy republic people to disgruntled secessionists, there is no persuasion score or charisma high enough to do that, there is no Force power that makes that work, because even the force is demonstrated to have its limits, and wouldn't the Jedi sense such a big shift in the Force? Not even the greatest manipulator to ever exist could engineer that sort of thing from nothing, even if took their entire existence to do so, Zero to Separatist just isn't possible, the mind-boggling scale of such a thing would take generations and lots of people working together to pull off, you certainly wouldn't be able to keep it a secret. And we have ample evidence throughout Star Wars canon that.....there was a lot of anger and social issues that existed during this time, issues that can't be explained by Palpatine's existence because they had existed long before this and existed long after, the farther you go from the core, the more your planet gets screwed by the Republic, the Outer Rim has always gotten the short end of the stick even in the best of times. So Palpatine isn't work with a blank slate happy republic where everyone is happy and its only him that wants power, there are generations of anger, social injustices and economic disparity for him to exploit and prey upon that make it far far easier and possible for the Separatists to exist. Manipulators can't do what do without material to work with after all.

So the question becomes......where did these conditions come from? if the Republic and the Jedi did nothing wrong, did these conditions just decide to spring up out of nowhere as Palpatine was born so he can suddenly outwit them all and be the villain for about 40 years before being overthrown? No. Outer Rim sucked before he came along, it clearly sucks after he was overthrown, so clearly the universe isn't randomly deciding to change itself for Palpatine's existence. Perhaps maybe the generations of Sith Lords before him helped out? I can believe they did, but I can't believe that one sith lord every generation was all it took, not for something this large. Maybe its the corporations alone doing all thats wrong, they're private companies right they're not affiliated with the actual republi- oh wait they are, there is a literal bill that makes corporations like them have seats on the freaking Senate, the military-industrial complex literally has voices in the seat of power alongside random worlds on the edge of the Republic who are screwed over by those same corporations! So. the Trade Federation? technically apart of the Republic's government. So the whole of episode I was technically a civil war within the Republic's own government. But for the corporations to get so powerful in the first place, the Senate has to basically let them do so, not regulating their power or what they can do to economically grow or how they can grow and thus allowing corporations like the Trade Federation to gain such power probably through exploitative predatory practices and allow them to be bribed by the money they give to their special interests so they ignore the Outer Rim's plight because the Senate itself passed a bill before that to allow the corporations to make settlements in the Outer Rim so they can do whatever they want there so as to expand the Republic because the actual wellbeing of your people don't matter right, only the fact that your government expands forever and ever until it encompasses all of existence until you rule over all that you see on the horizon and feel a warm sensation from looking at maps indicating the only color on it is yours, right? Wrong, generations of senators have screwed up and the Republic needs to abandon its dreams of constantly expanding, peaceful or otheriwse.

But suuuuurely the Jedi are always in the right and are not at fault for anything right? So there has to be nothing they could possibly do about any of this to fix it! The organization specifically meant to regulate force users and solve problems around galaxy, that is explicitly apart of the law enforcement of the Republic. the Organization that is supposed to specifically fight the Sith. the organization that specifically is supposed to be wise and help resolve things peacefully and thus offer good counsel to others and thus listen to their problems, the organization that is supposed to have compassion for all life, the organization that has the last sith outnumbered like, 10,000 to freaking 1 or 2, the organization that everyone trusts to protect the galaxy and mediate disputes instead of having a military, the organization that specifically has magical powers to see the future and sense when things are wrong......supposedly can't do anything about these problems. for centuries to a thousand years. supposedly can't go around helping the galaxy better so these conditions don't arise, supposedly can't foresee how these conditions can give rise to something ugly even if they don't know the exact form, supposedly can't help the Outer Rim not suck but has all the time to listen to the Senators and their problems.

supposedly cares about all life, which includes the Outer Rim, but barely goes out there to help unless its on accident, supposedly has compassion for all life but is willing to be generals to a war that engulfs the entire galaxy because apparently this policy is only true during peacetime as Jedi Master and Council Member Mace Windu cuts off a guy's head, Obi-Wan kills a Grievious, a cyborg and don't even count droids as living things given Obi-wan's attitude of "if droids could think there'd be none us would there?" which even if you argue that many droids are sapient by default, many of them can develop it as demonstrated by C-3P0 and R2-D2 and for a supposedly wise order they have an oddly blind eye when it comes to the thought that droids are living and people even if the force doesn't flow through them or whatever. supposedly has compassion for all life but doesn't do anything about slavery in the Outer Rim which is clearly causing pain and suffering and introduce power dynamics the Sith love to exploit and use, like why aren't the Sith taking the slave stuff on Tatooine and just putting it in all their servants so they can blow up anyone who betrays them from any distance? why aren't the Jedi getting rid of something that is literally an affront to everything they and Republic believe in a place that the Republic clearly wants to expand into regardless of how good it is to do so.

supposedly they can't do anything about the encroachment of the corporations but I dunno, Qui-gon and Obi-wan seemed to do pretty well defending Naboo from the Trade Federation there, could they have not investigated the Trade Federation for more wrongdoing? they seemed to get away scot-free politically for y'know, starting a planet-wide war, endangering an entire planet of civilian lives, all sorts of things, like did the Jedi never stop to think they might try to pull this again somewhere else? the more I examine them, the more I see the prequel jedi order have a distinct LACK of caring about life despite them supposedly being all about it, and when Anakin goes to them for help about a future vision to save the person he loves, the advice he gets is literally "stop caring about this life you care about" when a wise and empathetic person should be able to tell when that kind of advice is appropriate and needed you don't TELL people that when the person they love is still alive, wisdom and good advice are not things you can spray on everything without context or consideration, when wisdom is applied thoughtlessly it just becomes dogma. sure Anakin probably shouldn't be treated as so special as if he's above all other padawans or jedi or whatever, but the way the Jedi Order treats him is utterly without any consideration for context or personal circumstances, there is no such thing as one size fits all solution the Jedi don't seem to get that, treating Anakin as a faceless disciple of the order, which is....not compassionate at all. How tough does the love have to be before its just heartlessness? stoicism has it limits, and in some ways actively detrimental to communication and empathy and this is coming from someone gets the whole stoicism, discipline and calm deal, I had anger issues when I was real young, I get the need to control oneself, but controlling yourself isn't everything. not every emotion can be controlled by just saying "stop" and breathing- or should be, and not every issue in life can be something you can just bear and take in stride, nor would I ask anyone to do so. I would not hold even people like the Jedi to standards like that, because they are people first and their emotions should be respected no matter how control of it one claims they are, its just respectful to care even if they wouldn't be hurt, thats just the basic empathetic thing to do.

So if the Jedi can screw up a basic matter of empathy like this from one of its like, its wisest figures, supposedly......they screw things far larger that they are entrusted to do. like, fix the galaxy thats clearly out of balance even though no sith are around. because apparently to them everything is fine unless a sith shows up: the hutts, the exploitative corporations, the criminal cartels, the slave trade, the political discontent in poor places, the droids still being property, and so on so forth, those don't matter unless a Chancellor sends them to do something about it, until then nah, just chill in their temple on a city planet cut off from nature and from the common people below in your tower-like structure, largely talking to the most powerful people in the galaxy and no one else, as long they have their cushy meditation spot near the Senate its all fiiiiiiiiine. political unrest and economic concerns throughout the galaxy, just let go man, stop caring that you'll lose it and that people will die from how the Republic is mishandling everything, they'll all be one with the Force right? so its all fine, because they don't have to care about the passing of lives they supposedly care about and have compassion for, right, this is one with the Force's will riiiiiiiiigh-

Yeah, the Jedi are total screw ups. I'm wracking my brain and don't recall the Prequel Jedi Order being particularly compassionate, empathetic or caring about any life at all, sure they aren't being crazy murder social darwinists about it like the Sith are, but its quite clear that Jedi do not show any particular concern for life despite what Anakin claims about them in Episode II, instead acting as soldiers, generals and agents for a Republic they don't even care to fix because any problem that isn't brought to their direct attention through the Senate or some republic ending crisis like the Separatist war, they seem to ignore or shrug at while repeating platitudes to themselves so they don't care in a temple thats as far away as its possible to get from the lives and nature they supposedly hold sacred. they are trying to be good as best they know how, but trying is not good enough. like I've seen what a monk who cares about life looks like in other media, the Jedi don't follow that, again, look at ATLA: Aang is a far better example of someone who is compassionate but also calm and disciplined when needed, and its in fact his emotions that allow him to care more and better at helping balance the world,, because empathy is apart of that. When he was in his right state of mind he worked to not kill a single person, constantly- not killing someone who definitely deserved it was his final character conflict he had to solve! and here the Jedi are just killing people with their deadly all-cutting beam swords as if its nothing, with only "they're droids" as an excuse most of the time, but clearly flesh is not an obstacle when it comes down to it. they make a big deal out of Anakin killing Dooku but Obi-Wan and Windu kill Jango and Grievious and Obi-wan cut Maul in half to as if its just apart of the action scenes, so really Anakin is just learning from his Jedi Masters on this one. also its implied that adventures we see in the films are kind of normal for Obi-wan and Anakin, and if like, all the missions Anakin is sent out on turned into fights where he makes sure some people are cut down so that the planet can remain in the Republic and such, is it really that much of a surprise that he turned out like a brutal enforcer of an oppressive regime when all the examples of conflict resolution he gets shown is violence for the sake of a faceless all-reaching state that needs to continue and stay together at all costs? is it really that much of a surprise that the Jedi are ineffective at solving these problems, if their reaction to getting into violent adventures where they pull out their lightsaber is that its tuesday and to have fun battle banter?

The more I examine the Prequel Jedi Order, the less they are monks or protectors of a Republic.....and more they look like action movie heroes. because thats what they really are. stoic action movie heroes who don't quip as much as the next one over, but still action heroes who are just there to kick ass and blow stuff up then go home, job done. and how thats not what you want in an order to like, make sure the galaxy is at peace and prosperous and like mediate between entire civilizations and such. they are action movie heroes and that is clearly a bad thing, because thats how they treat their job in the galaxy and it works out poorly for them. now to be fair, I like action heroes......but doesn't mean they are appropriate for every situation or that they can't do wrong. just because the Jedi Order has action hero tropes, doesn't mean they are allowed to be successful nor are they absolved of any wrong they do. One does not do good things because they are a hero, they are a hero because they do good things. you can't start with hero then make all actions flow as good from that assumption, you have to start with good being done then work yourself up to being that, and the Jedi Order don't have the deeds to earn it. so more precisely, the Prequel Jedi order are just Badasses, they talk about being good and such but they don't actually walk the walk when they can fight someone instead. and being Badass just isn't an inherent good unto itself, not for the job they need to do for the galaxy, like sure get rid of Sith, but being good is more about wiping out the guy that is bad, you need to define what good is outside of the fight, outside of the enemy that you are not, or its meaningless.

show don't tell, Prequel Jedi Order aren't shown to be good in a way that matters and there is clearly in universe reasons why they are failing to be good, this doesn't mean they are evil or anything, its not that simple, or absolute. but you can try to be good and still fail at it, still mess up without being malicious. its more that the Jedi Order is....ignorant it seems of anything outside the politics they've entrenched themselves in which you'd think give them more power, but doesn't because now the politics controls the direction they go rather than them controlling where the politics go. they let themselves become pieces in the game rather than players, because they don't have any causes to play the game for, because the game has become the cause itself. the Republic's political stuff should only be a means to end: the people's wellbeing not the reason why the Jedi do anything at all, and they let the Republic's politics be what drives them to act. because that is all the Council does anything for, when the Senate wants this or that, when all they're fighting for is the Republic's continuation...they lost, because when perpetuation becomes the only concern, all others concerns fall by the wayside and ensures death more surer than anything else.

like the only reason I can think of to insist the Jedi done no wrong is because the author said so, and uh, death of the author so I'm not doing that, and because the Jedi Are Supposed To Be the Good Guys and Good Guys can't do bad things, which, uh, not true ever. such logic is backwards, because good people earn the title by doing good things, not by being good inherently or whatever.