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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I have to wonder what was going through his head. He obviously wasn't on board with holding Alderaan hostage in order to get Princess Leia to divulge the base's location. He wasn't thrilled by it, and when the gambit failed he has maximum smug on when he tells Tarkin that he told Tarkin so -- that Leia would never consciously betray the rebellion.

    So he wasn't 100% on board with it. But he didn't stop it either.
    It's hard to tell because of the mask. Vader could have been thinking "Oh God no!!!!" or "Is Tarkin actually going to do it or is he bluffing?" or "Is it Taco night? I really hope its Taco night at the cafeteria."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
    Does that make Obi Wan the Greek Hero of the prequels? I mean, he definitely did big momentous stuff that shaped the galaxy, like killing Grievous. Of course, one could argue that he just did his part and it was Palpatine shaping the galaxy, but that would apply to Anakin as well. Maybe Palpatine is the Greek Hero of the prequels. If anyone in the entire Star Wars universe can be said to have done big momentous stuff that shapes the galaxy, he's the one.
    Well, he's not too far off, is he? The main difference is that Anakin's story continues until RotJ, whereas Obi-Wan dies in ANH fulfilling the role of the Hero's mentor. Without that foreknowledge though (and the prequels were explicitly written intending that foreknowledge to be part of the audience's experience) Obi-Wan is certainly a tragic hero in his own right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    That was the coup after the war.
    A coup of the CIS, led by General Grievous? That's usually called "war".

    Conversely, the war was over every day and the next day was just a new war. Maybe that's why it's called the Clone Wars, plural. Explains a lot. Though by this reasoning you'll have somewhere around several hundred to thousand people ending the war, depends on if they repeat the person some days.

    Also, Thanos did a monumentous action that shaped the galaxy, like a hero. Stepping out on a ledge here, haven't seen an Avenger movie past the first one, but the hero Thanos fits your definition. As does Palpatine, for that matter, to get back to Star Wars. This "hero" thing is a lot more common than i expected!

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSquirrel View Post
    Well, he's not too far off, is he? The main difference is that Anakin's story continues until RotJ, whereas Obi-Wan dies in ANH fulfilling the role of the Hero's mentor. Without that foreknowledge though (and the prequels were explicitly written intending that foreknowledge to be part of the audience's experience) Obi-Wan is certainly a tragic hero in his own right.
    Agreed, Obi Wan does everything he can to save the Republic only for it to fall because he inadvertently helped his enemy.

    Anakin was just an evil guy who got more evil.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2024-06-13 at 12:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    It's hard to tell because of the mask. Vader could have been thinking "Oh God no!!!!" or "Is Tarkin actually going to do it or is he bluffing?" or "Is it Taco night? I really hope its Taco night at the cafeteria."
    Well, we have the conference room scene in which he chides Admiral Motti for being "too proud of this technological terror you have constructed." It's pretty clear Vader believes that the Death Star is a waste of time and money. He wants to do things more the way he did at Mustafar in the clone wars: Why use a Death Star to smash a planet when a red lightsaber in the right place at the right time will have the same effect with less collateral damage. Even for a dark sider, it must seem outright foolish to smash a perfectly good planet you could otherwise dominate with an iron fist just to kill a conference room full of rebels. Especially when Vader, once he's in the right place at the right time, is every bit as unstoppable as a Death Star, as we saw in the corridor scene in Rogue One.

    I think his long game here is to discredit Tarkin so that things will be done his way instead. And, through the course of a trilogy, he gets half a loaf: He did indeed get Death Squadron to do things his way in Episode 5, and he actually won that battle, so points there. But evidently Palpatine was in love with the idea of Death Stars and so went and built another one ...

    ... or is that really what happened? Did Palpatine construct DSII less for any effectiveness would have and more as the bait to lure the rebellion into the one thing they could not afford to fight: A conventional battle against the Imperial fleet?

    Of course, the Palpatine of the EU didn't need a Death Star: He could conjure a planet-destroying Force Storm all by himself, no technology needed. Which raises the question as to why he's putting so much energy into building these techno-superweapons in the first place.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2024-06-13 at 12:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Of course, the Palpatine of the EU didn't need a Death Star: He could conjure a planet-destroying Force Storm all by himself, no technology needed. Which raises the question as to why he's putting so much energy into building these techno-superweapons in the first place.
    Oh that, at least, is easy to explain. Palpatine was surprisingly disinterested in running the galaxy. Like Nemik's manifesto says, tyranny requires constant effort and Palpatine wanted to do other things. He was more interested in unlocking the secrets of immortality and becoming more powerful and all that jazz, so his intention was always to create super weapons like the Death Star and the Starkiller Base (which the Empire had been working on for years by the time Cal Kestis reaches Ilum five years after Order 66) to do the job for him. The job being to keep the citizens of the galaxy in a constant state of terror so they never rise against the Empire.

    Alderaan was a well-respected, wealthy and influential system in the Senate. That's why Tarkin blew it up. He wasn't just tormenting Leia he was making a show of force to discourage any other well-respected, wealthy and influential systems from allying with the Rebellion. Of course it backfired when Luke blew up the Death Star because fear is a terrible method of control, but that was Palpatine's plan. The Empire needed to be able to rule through fear without him, so he could go do what he wanted to do now the Jedi were no longer around to impede his research.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    So, is Sol in on whatever seems to have happened?
    "Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene."

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    So, is Sol in on whatever seems to have happened?
    It depends on how bold the writers are. If they want to be daring, they'd make it so Sol, Indara and Kelnacca were all in on it and Torbin had no real say in the matter since he was just a padawan at the time (which is why he's the only one who couldn't live with what happened or his part in it).

    That would make the three Jedi Masters the de facto villains of the story, but that would be pretty ballsy given the Jedi are meant to be the good guys.
    "Don't think of it as dying," said Death,
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Originally Posted by Mechalich
    Ahsoka has all the ingredients to be a good Star Wars show, it's simply that they weren't put together properly and the result is a show that's just bad.
    I’m still hoping that one day the existing show will be re-cut into a standalone theatrical release. There’s enough good material to make a fast-paced Star Wars movie in the old style, without all the long silences and meaningful looks.

    And as long as I’m dreaming, I’d like a pony.

    Originally Posted by Mechalich
    Nobody knows what the Acolyte is trying to do, and that's three episodes in.

    …This, once again, displays a massive failure by Disney to understand Star Wars fan opinion. At this time, the fandom is very angry, very skeptical, and very much not inclined to give new Star Wars projects the benefit of the doubt….
    All of this is very true, but there’s one more aspect worth mentioning, which bears directly on the issue of reviews.

    When Disney first announced the Mandalorian, there was plenty of interest and excitement, because at long last there would be a live-action Star Wars show—featuring some of the coolest warriors in the Star Wars galaxy. We all knew who Mandalorians were, and we had a solid idea of what to expect.

    With the subsequent shows—Kenobi, BoBF, Ahsoka, Andor—we already knew the characters and actors involved, and we hardly needed marketing to tell us anything about them. We’d been introduced to those characters starting with the OT, so there was innate interest and at least some goodwill ahead of their shows.

    But with the Acolyte, almost everyone involved was new to Star Wars—and they chose to introduce themselves, not by telling us anything meaningful about the characters and their galactic era, but through open references to current real-world issues. A number of individuals seemed to delight in making statements which they knew would be highly polarizing, and this fits squarely into the broader context of angry, skeptical fans.

    Star Wars is about heroism in a galaxy far, far away from our own troubles and concerns, and not everyone wants present-day issues troweled onto a cherished-from-childhood canvas. This was the exact wrong moment to take the approach they did when introducing themselves and the show, and that must be exerting a powerful drag on the reviews.


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    Originally Posted by Trafalgar
    Episode 3 is just out there. It's almost unbearably bad. Bad dialogue, bad acting, bad execution of some weird ideas, bad pacing.
    This seems to be the broad consensus on Episode 3. The nighttime ceremony in particular looks and sounds like it was shot by a bunch of college students who watched a TED talk on voice acting.

    Originally Posted by Trafalgar
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    Some people don't like the fact that Carrie Ann Moss's character died from a small dagger after so many other character's in Disney Star Wars have survived impalement and bisection and falls from a great height. I think it's a good thing. The bad thing is so many characters surviving impalement.
    Spoiler: Knife Through The Heart, And You're To Blame
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    I don’t disagree on principle, but this is going too far in the other direction. A Jedi of Indara’s ability had any number of options to neutralize Mae before the final knife—and the fact that she didn’t use any of them just feels contrived.

    Most glaringly, there was a moment when Mae[’s stunt performer] did a cute little backflip barely six inches away from Indara—while Indara was just standing there motionless. All she had to do was a quick Force push while Mae was upside-down and the little gymnastics routine would be over.

    The only thing that makes sense to me is that the knife was poisoned with a combination myotoxin/neurotoxin that paralyzed Indara’s muscles while suppressing her neurotransmitters. That would be a potent weapon against any Jedi, but I doubt if the showrunners even know what a myotoxin is.


    Originally Posted by Trafalgar
    This show reportedly cost $180 million.

    …What did they spend the money on?
    I cannot fathom how they spent over $20 million per episode and came up with this. I really don’t know where it all went.

    It certainly didn’t go towards imaginative and compelling environments. After the wet, spooky atmosphere of Dagobah, the clouds of Bespin, the city-world of Coruscant and the glass hell of Mandalore, the witches’ planet of Bonkadonk (or whatever it is) comes off as cheap and generic by comparison. It’s a great location for a Middle-Earth series, but not exactly a unique and memorable galactic location.

    Originally Posted by pendell
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    They're going to go full in on the whole Jedi-is-the-evil-patriarchy-persecuting-the-women approach….
    Spoiler: Probability
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    They’ve already hinted strongly at that so far, not to mention the unsubtle subtext of the coven being persecuted out of intolerance. Wouldn’t be at all surprised if your hypothetical example turns out to be the actual storyline.


    Originally Posted by Infernally Clay
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    That would make the three Jedi Masters the de facto villains of the story, but that would be pretty ballsy given the Jedi are meant to be the good guys.
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    Pretty sure the Jedi are, in fact, meant to be the villains of the story.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    So how would you compare this to Knights of the Old Republic 2: Sithlords due to similiar premise?
    I mean villain was compared to Kreia from said game.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Pre-registering my guess: The Jedi (or a Jedi, Torbin, at a guess) will make a mistake, feel very guilty about that, disproportionate to their actual responsibility, and they will agree to keep some secret, maybe about Mae/Osha's origin, maybe about what happened that night, but the Jedi will not be in any meaningful sense the villains of the story.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    Pre-registering my guess: The Jedi (or a Jedi, Torbin, at a guess) will make a mistake, feel very guilty about that, disproportionate to their actual responsibility, and they will agree to keep some secret, maybe about Mae/Osha's origin, maybe about what happened that night, but the Jedi will not be in any meaningful sense the villains of the story.
    My guess is that the horn-y witch and a faction of more violent witches will set up an ambush for the Jedi, against the coven's wishes. The witch superior will try to intervene to stop it, and something along the lines of what you said will end up with all of the witches being killed by the Jedi (Torbin makes a mistake, is going do die, and his master has to reluctantly start killing witches to save him).
    I expect there to be some teasing into provoking the Jedi to fight, with Carrie-Anne Moss uttereing the line "a Jedi doesn't draw a weapon unless prepared to kill" as a warning, which we heard quoted back at her by Mae in E01 (and will also link back to their "jedi don't attack unarmed people" exchange).
    Last edited by Clertar; 2024-06-14 at 02:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    Pre-registering my guess: The Jedi (or a Jedi, Torbin, at a guess) will make a mistake, feel very guilty about that, disproportionate to their actual responsibility, and they will agree to keep some secret, maybe about Mae/Osha's origin, maybe about what happened that night, but the Jedi will not be in any meaningful sense the villains of the story.
    It would be very disappointing if, after all this build up, it all boiled down to a mistake that the Jedi felt disproportionate guilt over. You don't willingly unalive yourself (to coin the popular phrase) over that, nor would Mae accuse Indara of killing unarmed individuals if she did not do so. It doesn't exactly help that there were a lot of dead people in a room and none of them looked like they died because of a fire.

    For me, personally, I'd lean more towards the idea that the Jedi seem to keep a very close eye on Force sensitive communities and effectively outlawed such communities from training children to use the Force, because only the Jedi Order is allowed to do that. I would assume that the Jedi were initially unaware this coven used the dark side of the Force, however, and so the Jedi's mission became "to save the children from these evil witches and their creepy ritual" and this escalated into a battle that the coven lost. Badly. It probably wasn't until after the Jedi killed them all that they realised the women were completely harmless and their ascension ritual was too.

    Torbin explicitly says "Forgive me, we thought we were doing the right thing". Yet the right thing to do was probably taking Osha to Coruscant because she wanted to go and leaving Mae with the coven to live as they chose to.
    Last edited by Infernally Clay; 2024-06-14 at 06:29 AM.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

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    We've been shown elsewhere that they don't control or try to control other force using communities, though (see: nightsisters, etc).

    We already know they were not completely harmless because of what did to Torbin, but they're going to need a hell of a good reason to justify episode 2.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Have we confirmed the witches use the Dark Side? I'm thinking of the Gray Jedi from the Legends novel The Unifying Force , who followed a vision of the Force of the same name.

    The witches don't even call it a Force. They call it a Thread. It's pretty obvious, to me, that this thread has both what we would think of as light or dark side aspects. But the act of creating children, by itself, is not inherently a Dark Side action. If anything, the act of bringing a new life into the world is often an act of love and compassion, not the hateful destruction we see from Palpatine and the Sith.

    I have to wonder to what extent the witches -- or the Force -- fit into the Light/Dark model the Jedi use.

    Think of it this way: Imagine you live in a D&D world in which all nine alignments exist. Now, imagine you have a particular religion within this cosmology that defines good as strictly "lawful good" while everything else is one flavor or another of evil. What's more , they serve a god who will back this viewpoint, and they have crafted their own bespoke versions of "Detect Evil" and "Detect Good" which are really "Detect non-lawful good" and "detect lawful good" under the hood to reinforce their own viewpoint.

    Now create an order of paladins and send them into this world. They don't have a complex view of the world. They view the world strictly in terms of "good" and "evil". A Paladin of this order, encountering the OOTS, would adjudge almost all of them as evil except for Roy and Durkon, and question their associations with the other members.

    Nor would their attitude be lessened when they learn that Haley is a thief, a criminal, and Vaarsuvius a mass murderer.

    Now, imagine a group of these paladins encounter a neutral or even chaotic good religious group raising their children with non-traditional rituals. What would you expect the outcome to be? They view Modrons, elementals, all as a form of devils and demons in their simplistic view of the world. While they might try to settle this peacefully, violence would always be near the surface because of their utter abhorrence of the religious one's viewpoint and way of life.

    I wonder if where the showrunners are going with this are the "blind men with an elephant" analogy. One holds the trunk and tells us an elephant is like a snake. Another holds a leg and tells us an elephant is like a tree. But an elephant is a different thing from all these models, because none of the blind men can understand the elephant in its totality.

    Are the Jedi really the people who are the only ones in the galaxy who understand the elephant in full? Or are they only holding onto a piece of it while the witches have it by another? And if that second is the case, do the Jedi really have the right to judge and destroy those who think differently from them? And yes, taking people's children is absolutely a form of killing even if it leaves their bodies alive. To steal people's children is to steal their future.

    In this view, it's not that the Jedi are evil. It's that they have a simplistic dichotomy of the world and they inadvertently cause harm to innocent people when they try to shoehorn the entire galaxy into their world view, and when they declare all other viewpoints as illegitimate/ dark side. Not evil, just bigoted and intolerant.

    I know the modern world likes to think of "bigoted and intolerant" as synonymous with "evil". But they're not. There's a big, big difference between being unable to see the good in others and willingly, actively, seeking the destruction of the innocent. Even if the Jedi do turn out to be "bigoted and intolerant" in this respect they're still far, far more good than the even more bigoted, intolerant, and cartoonishly evil Sith.

    Not that this would have any reflections in the real world whatsoever.

    Of course, if that is where the showrunners are going with this, the fact the Jedi in the prequels are still essentially the same as they were in the High Republic era, in terms of seeing themselves as the sole arbiters of right and wrong in the galaxy, it would imply the Order as a whole learned nothing from this experience. Simply a regrettable incident to be instantly forgotten along with the "aggressive negotiations" Anakin jokes about in Episode 2. It's a view that doesn't reflect well on the Jedi Order, if that is where they're going with it.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2024-06-14 at 08:18 AM.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    This seems to be the broad consensus on Episode 3. The nighttime ceremony in particular looks and sounds like it was shot by a bunch of college students who watched a TED talk on voice acting.
    Good one!


    Spoiler: Knife Through The Heart, And You're To Blame
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    I don’t disagree on principle, but this is going too far in the other direction. A Jedi of Indara’s ability had any number of options to neutralize Mae before the final knife—and the fact that she didn’t use any of them just feels contrived.

    Most glaringly, there was a moment when Mae[’s stunt performer] did a cute little backflip barely six inches away from Indara—while Indara was just standing there motionless. All she had to do was a quick Force push while Mae was upside-down and the little gymnastics routine would be over.

    The only thing that makes sense to me is that the knife was poisoned with a combination myotoxin/neurotoxin that paralyzed Indara’s muscles while suppressing her neurotransmitters. That would be a potent weapon against any Jedi, but I doubt if the showrunners even know what a myotoxin is.


    Spoiler: I wanna stab you in the heart; Right in the bloody, bloody heart; For heaven's sake, You're just a fake, And you know it ain't right
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    To be fair, the blades look to be 4-6 inches long and people in the real world die from knife wounds like this. Though I agree that some kind of Sith poison would make the show a little better. If I was going against a Jedi, I would take every precaution I could.

    Another idea to explain why Indara doesn't block the blade is to make it special. In Heir to the Empire, a creature called the Ysalami (sp?) created a bubble around it where the force is absent. What if one of the knives is made out of some super rare metal that works the same way which makes it impossible to be seen, detected, or grabbed by the force?

    So Mae throws 3 daggers at Indara. The first two are steel and Indara can easily block them. The third is this special metal so it goes right through Indara's defenses and kills her.

    This also makes Mae a bigger threat because now the Jedi have to fight without the force. Just an idea.


    I cannot fathom how they spent over $20 million per episode and came up with this. I really don’t know where it all went.

    It certainly didn’t go towards imaginative and compelling environments. After the wet, spooky atmosphere of Dagobah, the clouds of Bespin, the city-world of Coruscant and the glass hell of Mandalore, the witches’ planet of Bonkadonk (or whatever it is) comes off as cheap and generic by comparison. It’s a great location for a Middle-Earth series, but not exactly a unique and memorable galactic location.
    It get's worse.

    I did a little research. The Empire Strike Back originally cost $30.5 million in 1980. Adjusted for inflation, that's $123.1 million compared with $180 million for The Acolyte. Of course that doesn't include the money Lucas spent on making the Special Edition of Empire but still...

    Empire had scenes on 3 very distinct planets and a space chase in an asteroid field. What does The Acolyte have? There are 5 episodes left but I am not expecting any large space or ground battles requiring a huge special effects budget.

    So what did they spend the money on? I think Leslye Headland bought herself a yacht.
    Last edited by Trafalgar; 2024-06-14 at 08:22 AM.

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    Originally Posted by pendell
    On the one hand, the disparity between critic approval (90%) and fan approval (24%) is stark….
    Just to update the numbers, the RT audience score now stands at 17%, and the critic score has dipped to 86%.

    The latter is more noteworthy, since it suggests even the people with vested interests in rating the show highly are becoming less enthralled.

    Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard
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    We already know they were not completely harmless because of what did to Torbin, but they're going to need a hell of a good reason to justify episode 2.
    Spoiler: The Cuddly Side of the Force
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    Yup, after making a big deal about how they don’t control the Force Thread and don’t wield it against others, they immediately weaponize it against Torbin—by far the weakest of the Jedi present—and then float the idea of murdering all the Jedi. I love their consistency to their principles and their compassion for others.


    Originally Posted by Trafalgar
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    Another idea to explain why Indara doesn't block the blade is to make it special. In Heir to the Empire, a creature called the Ysalami (sp?) created a bubble around it where the force is absent. What if one of the knives is made out of some super rare metal that works the same way which makes it impossible to be seen, detected, or grabbed by the force?
    Spoiler: It Cuts Like A Knife, But It Feels So Right
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    The creatures were called ysalamiri, and I really like this idea. It makes excellent sense and draws on existing EU lore.

    I’ll hold onto this idea when I wake all alone in the dark of night, sobbing inconsolably at what Star Wars has become.


    Originally Posted by Trafalgar
    It get's worse.

    …Empire had scenes on 3 very distinct planets and a space chase in an asteroid field. What does The Acolyte have? There are 5 episodes left but I am not expecting any large space or ground battles requiring a huge special effects budget.
    And that space chase is one of the coolest sequences in all of Star Wars, bar none, and it’s iconic in its own right. When I was a kid I drew on this scene to imagine that TIE fighters were chasing me on my bike through the woods. (I was a weird Star Wars kid.) And for many years this scene was featured in an exhibit on space travel at the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum in D.C. It encapsulates the action, peril and daredevil piloting skills that gave classic Star Wars its generational appeal.

    I highly doubt we’ll get anything so memorable here. A yacht, a Maserati and a private airship seem more likely.

    Originally Posted by Trafalgar
    It's hard to tell because of the mask. Vader could have been thinking "Oh God no!!!!" or "Is Tarkin actually going to do it or is he bluffing?" or "Is it Taco night? I really hope its Taco night at the cafeteria."
    This instantly gave me an image of Vader drinking from the nutrient hoses in the Andor prison, except he gets taco flavor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Have we confirmed the witches use the Dark Side? I'm thinking of the Gray Jedi from the Legends novel The Unifying Force , who followed a vision of the Force of the same name.

    The witches don't even call it a Force. They call it a Thread. It's pretty obvious, to me, that this thread has both what we would think of as light or dark side aspects. But the act of creating children, by itself, is not inherently a Dark Side action. If anything, the act of bringing a new life into the world is often an act of love and compassion, not the hateful destruction we see from Palpatine and the Sith.

    I have to wonder to what extent the witches -- or the Force -- fit into the Light/Dark model the Jedi use.
    I distinctly recall Aniseya saying others view what they do as “dark”, plus they’re witches in a coven and were almost certainly exiled from the Nightsisters, who themselves wield the dark side of the Force. You’d have to imagine, as well, that if this coven is doing something even the Nightsisters consider crossing the line then the Jedi Order certainly would not twiddle their thumbs about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    Torbin explicitly says "Forgive me, we thought we were doing the right thing". Yet the right thing to do was probably taking Osha to Coruscant because she wanted to go and leaving Mae with the coven to live as they chose to.
    Silly question...does Torbin actually know it's Mae, not Osha? Because from his perspective, he presumably heard that Osha failed and left the order and now someone who looks exactly like Osha shows up and attacks him, fairly clearly using the dark side. So, from his perspective, whatever went wrong on the planet ended up with everyone but Osha dead, and now Osha has failed to become a Jedi and fallen to darkness. If so, the 'right thing' was taking her to the Order when 'she' asked, but it has had this terrible result and the one good thing that came out of whatever went wrong there has fallen to darkness too...

    I can see that having a strong impact on him, especially if he felt guilt, rightly or wrongly, over what happened on the planet.

    This may also explain Indara's reaction, somewhat.

    There was some discussion above about Indara's death, and I maintain that that was quite well handled. Indara can save the bartender, or herself and saves the bartender. That may be unwise (or extremely wise, as her sacrifice does not end up being undone) but it's heroic and the suggestion that she should have just been able to stop both strikes me as pretty silly and missing the point. For Indara, there wasn't a third option, so she chose to sacrifice herself rather than an innocent. For Mae, there were a vast number of choices and she chose to endanger (and indeed, planned to kill) an innocent in order to help her accomplish her task.

    Again, I think the odds that the Jedi are going to be the villains of the piece are minimal.

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    I’m still confused about a few things from Episode 3, in particular having to do with the twins’ parents—who I’ll call Strict Mom (the Zabrak) and Indulgent Mom (the human).


    Spoiler: Pushmi-Pullyu
    Show
    What exactly was the deal with Indulgent Mom and her Force Thread-pushing demonstration? “The power of one,” “The power of two,” etc.

    Apart from looking incredibly hokey, I can’t work out what she was trying to get across. I couldn’t see much difference between her pushing against one witch versus two witches. What am I missing?


    Spoiler: Genetics I: Force Conception
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    So we know that the witches have been persecuted because they’re “different,” they’ve fled to Bonkadonk and their numbers are dwindling (?) or at least not increasing (because why exactly?) so they created the twins, probably in a ceremony that was just as creepy and poorly acted as the ascension thingy.

    But why?!

    Why would they need to?

    Why, in a galaxy with millions of years’ worth of advanced civilizations, in the context of a Republic with many thousands of years of direct technological continuity, would they need to rely on dodgy Force magic? Just because they’re “persecuted” (as they tell it), they immediately jump to “flirting with Dark Side powers to make immaculate Force babies” or whatever?

    Here in the real-world 21st century we could easily clone humans if it weren’t for ethical constraints, and there’s no reason to assume that cloning as a technology isn’t available in the High Republic era. The Kaminoans were very good cloners, but that doesn’t mean they were only cloners. Almost certainly this and many other reproductive technologies were highly advanced and widespread throughout the galaxy.

    And yet the strong implication is that the witches resorted to spooky forbidden Threadiness because they were desperate and out of options. Really?

    Not buying it. At the very least we need a line or two explaining why they can’t use conventional techniques—especially given the prominence that cloning has had in Star Wars canon and lore, from the very first movie onwards.


    Spoiler: Genetics II: Little Zabraks
    Show
    If the Zabrak mom (I want to call her Darth Melisande) actually carried the twins, as she says…how and why are they human, rather than Zabrak? Apart from the potential incompatibilities (different species, different genetics, different immune systems, different placental function, etc.) why were they selecting for human twins, rather than Zabrak twins?

    If they were specifically aiming for humans, why not simply use a human host mother? And if a Zabrak was preferred for some reason—either sentimental/emotional attachment, or perhaps inherent Zabrak affinity for the Force Thread—why didn’t they simply allow the twins to be Zabraks?

    This is probably too thinky and real-worldy, and definitely what the show doesn’t want us to ponder, but these things bug me. More than that, any competent story editor with a basic understanding of biology should have brought this up, and it’s an issue that could have been easily resolved with another line or two. Those lines could have added a touch more depth and complexity to the characters and the narrative…but I doubt it even occurred to the writers.

    Interestingly, over in Trek, there’s been much more attention paid to the issues of cross-species reproduction with regards to Spock and his parentage. Trek is more willing to at least raise scientific concerns, and touch on ethical issues stemming from science-inspired scenarios. Not always ("half-Caitian" comes to mind) but overall there seems to be much more awareness of the underlying technical concerns.

    By comparison, in Star Wars canon we’ve had at least two other cross-species conceptions that I can think of—Hera and Kanan’s child, and a clone trooper who went AWOL and raised children with a Twi’lek. In neither case was there any attention paid to the details (understandable, since these were kids’ shows), but in neither situation were the parents in a position to artificially assist the pregnancies, at least not with Pol Massa-level birthing technology. (Interestingly, in both cases the children were borne by Twi’lek mothers, which might suggest their species has some ability to hybridize naturally.)

    In the case of both Hera’s child and the trooper’s kids, the offspring were clear hybrids, so biologically they would be considered chimerae. (This happens naturally with some primate species in the real world, although it’s within-species rather than cross-species chimerism.) This raises the question of whether the Acolyte twins are also chimerae in a less visible way.

    That raises a lot of fascinating possibilities, at least to me, especially if we bring in the much-reviled-but-grudgingly-accepted Midichlorians. Those have already been referenced at least once in another Disney show (the “M-count” of the Imperial geneticist from The Mandalorian) so in theory they’re available to be referenced here. But once again, both the possibilities and the M-count reference are likely lost on the showrunners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    Silly question...does Torbin actually know it's Mae, not Osha?
    He does. The full exchange is...

    Mae: "I give you a choice - to confess your crime to the Jedi Council or receive the forgiveness you seek right here, right now, from me. Face the past, Master Torbin."

    Torbin: "I've been waiting for you, Mae. Forgive me, we thought we were doing the right thing."

    Mae never identifies herself, so this tells us that not only does Torbin know Mae survived, but the other Jedi Masters probably do as well, and Torbin at the very least has been waiting for Mae to come after them. Torbin knows they did something terrible but says they thought they were doing the right thing at the time, which implies to me at least that they didn't find out the truth until after they did what they did.

    He would also rather die there and then instead of confess what they did to the Jedi Council, which is either because his loyalty to the other three is more important than his own life or he valued this form of closure for Mae over his own absolution. I wouldn't be surprised if Indara allowed Mae to kill her for the same reason.

    Like Budd in Kill Bill, maybe it really is a case of "That woman deserves her revenge and we deserve to die".
    Last edited by Infernally Clay; 2024-06-14 at 10:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    Spoiler: I wanna stab you in the heart; Right in the bloody, bloody heart; For heaven's sake, You're just a fake, And you know it ain't right
    Show


    To be fair, the blades look to be 4-6 inches long and people in the real world die from knife wounds like this. Though I agree that some kind of Sith poison would make the show a little better. If I was going against a Jedi, I would take every precaution I could.

    Another idea to explain why Indara doesn't block the blade is to make it special. In Heir to the Empire, a creature called the Ysalami (sp?) created a bubble around it where the force is absent. What if one of the knives is made out of some super rare metal that works the same way which makes it impossible to be seen, detected, or grabbed by the force?

    So Mae throws 3 daggers at Indara. The first two are steel and Indara can easily block them. The third is this special metal so it goes right through Indara's defenses and kills her.

    This also makes Mae a bigger threat because now the Jedi have to fight without the force. Just an idea.
    Spoiler
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    I don't see the improvement in this suggestion. Instead of thinking of the human-relatable reasons behind an action, like how throwing a dagger at a bystander forces Indara to make a split-second decision on who to save and distracts her enough for an attack to land, you've jumped to inventing a special, never-before-seen material that exists only to downplay the actions of everyone involved. It wasn't Mae's ruthless quick thinking or Indara's compassion that led to the outcome of the battle, it was pocket unobtanium the whole time!


    The Jedi aren't invincible. As has been pointed out way earlier in the thread, Luke got his hand shot off by a random gangster on Tatooine. A majority of the order were unceremoniously gunned down by regular troopers. There really should never be the assumption that holding a lightsaber is an undefeatable offense and defense unless it's against another lightsaber, yet that seems to be what a lot of people prefer. And that's boring.

    Maybe inventing random one-off things is the appeal of the setting these days. I've always found it cringe-inducing that the fandom and creators will write 10 page wiki articles on every unnamed, unimportant character who shows up in the background of a scene. I suppose I could see the appeal of it, though, like a collaborative fiction element a la SCP Foundation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    I did a little research. The Empire Strike Back originally cost $30.5 million in 1980. Adjusted for inflation, that's $123.1 million compared with $180 million for The Acolyte. Of course that doesn't include the money Lucas spent on making the Special Edition of Empire but still...

    Empire had scenes on 3 very distinct planets and a space chase in an asteroid field. What does The Acolyte have? There are 5 episodes left but I am not expecting any large space or ground battles requiring a huge special effects budget.

    So what did they spend the money on? I think Leslye Headland bought herself a yacht.
    Empire is a two hour movie. The Acolyte is a 5-6 hour long series, and we've already seen four distinct planets in it. Brendok with its weird luminscent flora/fauna, Olega where Torbin's temple is, the snow planet Carlac, and Coruscant; plus the space scenes on the prison ship. I don't really think there's much of a question of where the money is being spent. It's been fairly diverse, even if it's clear the quality is being stretched at points. Brendok was a nice setting, the prison ship... not so much.
    Last edited by ArmyOfOptimists; 2024-06-14 at 12:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    He does. The full exchange is...

    Mae: "I give you a choice - to confess your crime to the Jedi Council or receive the forgiveness you seek right here, right now, from me. Face the past, Master Torbin."

    Torbin: "I've been waiting for you, Mae. Forgive me, we thought we were doing the right thing."
    Ah, thanks for finding the actual language and quotes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    Mae never identifies herself, so this tells us that not only does Torbin know Mae survived, but the other Jedi Masters probably do as well, and Torbin at the very least has been waiting for Mae to come after them. Torbin knows they did something terrible but says they thought they were doing the right thing at the time, which implies to me at least that they didn't find out the truth until after they did what they did.

    He would also rather die there and then instead of confess what they did to the Jedi Council, which is either because his loyalty to the other three is more important than his own life or he valued this form of closure for Mae over his own absolution. I wouldn't be surprised if Indara allowed Mae to kill her for the same reason.
    Certainly possible, or, he could simply mean exactly what he says. He's been waiting for Mae, to ask her forgiveness for whatever happened. And now he's done that. She says that the way to receive forgiveness is to drink the poison and he accepts that and does it, because that's what he wants, for her to forgive him, for whatever happened.

    I don't think it's about covering anything up from the Jedi Council, though they may not know, for the very simple reason that he doesn't actually have to do either of her choices. She has absolutely no way to force this choice on him and doesn't even really try to come up with one. He is transparently more powerful than her. If he wanted to, he could simply squish her into a little ball and dump her corpse in an incinerator. But neither that, nor going to the Jedi can get him what he seems to want, which is forgiveness from her.
    Last edited by ecarden; 2024-06-14 at 12:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    Certainly possible, or, he could simply mean exactly what he says. He's been waiting for Mae, to ask her forgiveness for whatever happened. And now he's done that. She says that the way to receive forgiveness is to drink the poison and he accepts that and does it, because that's what he wants, for her to forgive him, for whatever happened.

    I don't think it's about covering anything up from the Jedi Council, though they may not know, for the very simple reason that he doesn't actually have to do either of her choices. She has absolutely no way to force this choice on him and doesn't even really try to come up with one. He is transparently more powerful than her. If he wanted to, he could simply squish her into a little ball and dump her corpse in an incinerator. But neither that, nor going to the Jedi can get him what he seems to want, which is forgiveness from her.
    If the Jedi Council doesn't know, and it certainly seems as though they do not, then it can only be because Sol, Indara, Kelnacca and Torbin never told them. I have a very vague sense that Vernestra Rwoh might be in on it too, but I can't explicitly home in on why. Maybe something she said or alluded to in a conversation with Sol? I'd have to rewatch her scenes to be sure. Either way I get the distinct feeling that these four intend to take the secret of what they did to their grave. Indara likely allowed Mae to kill her, Torbin willingly drank the poison... I guess a lot of it depends on Kelnacca's response. He seemingly went into self-imposed exile, after all, so if he also allows Mae to kill him then we have a pattern we can't really ignore.

    The only question that leaves us with is how much is Sol in on it? Did he genuinely believe Mae died, or did he just play dumb because they all agreed they would? Did he take Osha as his padawan because it was his duty or because of his guilt?

    Then of course we have to ask why Osha left the Order, since that has only happened nineteen times in twenty five thousand years (making Osha one of the Lost Twenty). She was pretty eager to join the Jedi, after all, even if it meant never seeing her mother or sister again. Somewhat tangentially, that in itself raises an even better question. Do Jedi almost never leave the Order because it's all sunshine and rainbows or because it's the only life they've ever known and thus do not have a frame of reference? It's kinda interesting that both Anakin and Osha joined the Order under the assumption their lives would be so much better because being a Jedi would be the greatest thing ever, but then they both end up wanting to leave pretty quickly. Is that because they both had lives before the Jedi Order and only realise upon joining it what you have to give up to become a Jedi?
    Last edited by Infernally Clay; 2024-06-14 at 01:08 PM.
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    Osha isn't one of the Lost Twenty, they are not everyone who has left the Order, they are Jedi Masters who have left the Order. She wasn't a Master.

    I'[m fine with Indara's death, it ties in to the whole 'you don't beat a Jedi with a weapon' thing. The Master doesn't mean that literally, he means 'you have to make them not want to win', which is what happened with Indara and Torbin. Neither of them really wanted to hurt her, and that is what allowed her to win, not being better at fighting.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    If the Jedi Council doesn't know, and it certainly seems as though they do not, then it can only be because Sol, Indara, Kelnacca and Torbin never told them.
    Right, and there's a lot of reasons you might not do that. You might do it to cover up shame at some crime. You might do it to give Osha the best chance of adapting so that no one knows that she's a hideous abomination created by Sith Alchemy, you might do it because none of what happened is actually their fault and Indara thought Torbin was being a big stilly guilt-ridden child about it and wasn't going to waste the Council's time on that. There's lots of options for why the Council may not know...assuming they don't know. The only basis for that is that Mae makes a spectacularly hollow threat to reveal it to them, but as previously discussed, I don't think that has anything to do with Torbin's actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    I have a very vague sense that Vernestra Rwoh might be in on it too, but I can't explicitly home in on why. Maybe something she said or alluded to in a conversation with Sol? I'd have to rewatch her scenes to be sure. Either way I get the distinct feeling that these four intend to take the secret of what they did to their grave. Indara likely allowed Mae to kill her, Torbin willingly drank the poison... I guess a lot of it depends on Kelnacca's response. He seemingly went into self-imposed exile, after all, so if he also allows Mae to kill him then we have a pattern we can't really ignore.

    The only question that leaves us with is how much is Sol in on it? Did he genuinely believe Mae died, or did he just play dumb because they all agreed they would? Did he take Osha as his padawan because it was his duty or because of his guilt?
    I think this radically overstates what we know and Indara 'allowed' Mae to kill her in order to save someone else. Anything else is extrapolating well beyond what we see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    Then of course we have to ask why Osha left the Order, since that has only happened nineteen times in twenty five thousand years (making Osha one of the Lost Twenty). She was pretty eager to join the Jedi, after all, even if it meant never seeing her mother or sister again. Somewhat tangentially, that in itself raises an even better question. Do Jedi almost never leave the Order because it's all sunshine and rainbows or because it's the only life they've ever known and thus do not have a frame of reference? It's kinda interesting that both Anakin and Osha joined the Order under the assumption their lives would be so much better because being a Jedi would be the greatest thing ever, but then they both end up wanting to leave pretty quickly. Is that because they both had lives before the Jedi Order and only realise upon joining it what you have to give up to become a Jedi?
    I thought that they were fairly clear what happened with Osha (who is not one of the Lost Twenty, as they're Twenty Jedi Masters who left the Order, not anyone who happens to fail their tests and decide to bail). She was never able to let go of her grief and loss over what happened and so could never advance in the Jedi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyOfOptimists View Post
    There really should never be the assumption that holding a lightsaber is an undefeatable offense and defense unless it's against another lightsaber, yet that seems to be what a lot of people prefer. And that's boring.
    It is staggeringly common for some fans to prefer an interpretation of the text where the heroes they most identify with are unstoppable flawless who could effortlessly destroy any opponent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyOfOptimists View Post
    Spoiler
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    I don't see the improvement in this suggestion. Instead of thinking of the human-relatable reasons behind an action, like how throwing a dagger at a bystander forces Indara to make a split-second decision on who to save and distracts her enough for an attack to land, you've jumped to inventing a special, never-before-seen material that exists only to downplay the actions of everyone involved. It wasn't Mae's ruthless quick thinking or Indara's compassion that led to the outcome of the battle, it was pocket unobtanium the whole time!


    The Jedi aren't invincible. As has been pointed out way earlier in the thread, Luke got his hand shot off by a random gangster on Tatooine. A majority of the order were unceremoniously gunned down by regular troopers. There really should never be the assumption that holding a lightsaber is an undefeatable offense and defense unless it's against another lightsaber, yet that seems to be what a lot of people prefer. And that's boring.

    Maybe inventing random one-off things is the appeal of the setting these days. I've always found it cringe-inducing that the fandom and creators will write 10 page wiki articles on every unnamed, unimportant character who shows up in the background of a scene. I suppose I could see the appeal of it, though, like a collaborative fiction element a la SCP Foundation.
    Clone troopers defeated Jedi by having lots of troopers all simultaneously firing blasters at a single Jedi. Mae throws 2 knives. And I'd assume the knives velocity is much slower than a blaster.

    Luke Skywalker in his initial training in A New Hope is able to block 3 shots while blindfolded. So Jedi Master Indara is far worse than someone who isn't even a padawan yet. I don't think my solution is perfect but it at least makes Mae more of a threat and not depend on coincidence. I mean, what if the bad CGI Alien wasn't still in the bar? What would she do then? Keep throwing daggers until she runs out?

    Empire is a two hour movie. The Acolyte is a 5-6 hour long series, and we've already seen four distinct planets in it. Brendok with its weird luminscent flora/fauna, Olega where Torbin's temple is, the snow planet Carlac, and Coruscant; plus the space scenes on the prison ship. I don't really think there's much of a question of where the money is being spent. It's been fairly diverse, even if it's clear the quality is being stretched at points. Brendok was a nice setting, the prison ship... not so much.
    4 distinct planets whose exteriors are only seen for a moment. And I am pretty sure they just reused existing Coruscant CGI. The rest is all interior shots. The CGI characters are mediocre at best. The dialogue and writing sucks. There is nothing about this production that makes me say WOW.

    But lets do a more apples to apples comparison. Season 1 of the Mandalorian cost $100 million and had known leading actors (Pascal, Carano, Esposito) and known directors (Filoni, Favreau, Waititi). And they spent millions on the Grogu animatronic. What is it about the Acolyte that makes it $80 million dollars better than season 1 of the Mandalorian?

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    With regards to the Lost Twenty --

    Osha ( And what the heck kind of name is that? ) is never described as a knight in the promotional material, only as a "former padawan".

    And we know there's such a thing as the Jedi trials by which a Padawan transitions to Knighthood.

    So how's this for a theory: Osha either refused to take the trials, or failed them, possibly deliberately. Perhaps it might even be that her pre-Jedi knowledge of the Force from the coven means she cannot accept the Jedi teachings wholeheartedly, and this leads to a break.

    At any rate, this would explain why she wouldn't be considered one of the Lost Twenty. You must be a knight to be considered "lost", and she "washed out" or otherwise left during training. I don't know what the statistics are for Padawans graduating to knighthood, but it may be that Padawans not going on to become knights -- either because of family attachments, or falling in love, or finding a dream job, or washing out, or being otherwise unsuitable (as in, carried away in a straitjacket because they're flippin' psychotic) -- is not uncommon. If the Jedi counted Padawans who didn't finish training among the Lost, the number might be considerably higher.

    Respectfully,

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    Originally Posted by Infernally Clay
    Spoiler
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    Like Budd in Kill Bill, maybe it really is a case of "That woman deserves her revenge and we deserve to die".
    Spoiler: Kill Sol
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    Sure seems like it.


    Originally Posted by ArmyOfOptimists
    The Jedi aren't invincible. As has been pointed out way earlier in the thread, Luke got his hand shot off by a random gangster on Tatooine.
    If this refers to the fight at the Sarlacc pit, in no way was Luke’s hand “shot off.” He took a blaster shot to the back of his hand, and he definitely felt it, but it didn’t prevent him from continuing to fight two-handed or from swinging two-handed on the rope from the sail barge to the skiff. In his X-Wing a bit later we see the hand's outer housing has been burned off, but the inner mechanisms are entirely intact and functional. Describing this as "shot off" simply isn't accurate.

    Spoiler: As Applied to the Acolyte...
    Show
    The broader issue with Indara’s perfomance isn’t that she wasn’t “invincible,” but that the fight was presented in such a way that it seemed to ignore any number of common-sense moves that could have allowed Indara to neutralize Mae without seriously harming her. As Trafalgar just pointed out, Indara is supposed to be an experienced master, but here she's performing at below padawan level.

    Just like the Force Thread conception in Episode 3, it feels hamfistedly contrived to drive the story where the showrunners want it to go, rather than making any intelligent effort to sell it to the audience beyond “this is supposed to look cool, so just buy it.”


    Originally Posted by ArmyOfOptimists
    A majority of the order were unceremoniously gunned down by regular troopers.
    Again, this phrasing distorts the context. These weren’t “regular troopers,” these were trusted brothers-in-arms who had fought alongside the Jedi every day for years.

    And the gunning-down wasn’t a casual thing; it was a plot many years in the making, timed to take advantage of both the Jedis’ long-term trust as well as their extreme focus on the tactical situations of the moment. It’s not an accident that every set of clone troopers we see shooting at the Jedi begin their attack from behind the Jedi, while the Jedi are concentrating on hostiles or potential hostiles ahead.

    Originally Posted by ArmyOfOptimists
    Brendok with its weird luminscent flora/fauna, Olega where Torbin's temple is, the snow planet Carlac, and Coruscant….
    True, true. We’ve never seen another planet with weird luminescent flora and a magical willow tree.

    And look, a snow planet! Never seen one of those before, not in the OT and not in the ST, not to mention the Mandalorian (twice). And we’ve definitely never seen Coruscant before.

    —Obviously the last has story reasons for its presence in the series, but the first three are decidedly lacking in originality. As much as I’d love to visit the actual filming location for Bonkadonk, visually it’s almost identical to the planet where Grogu sent out his force-call, with matching temple ruins. These planets may be “diverse” within the narrow confines of this one show, but they’re uninspired and repetitive when compared with Star Wars overall. Mustafar, Utapau, Scarif, Kamino are all highly varied and dramatic locations, and I haven’t seen anything in this show to match them.

    Even within the Disney shows, Andor gave us a deeply beautiful location for the Rebel heist—centered on a certain iconic Scottish dam—and even Ahsoka gave us Peridea, with a uniquely cool concept for planetary rings and a uniquely forlorn and windswept landscape. They were visually lovely and had some real thought put into them. And the Mandalorian gave us a miniature Halo, again unique in visual Star Wars canon.

    By contrast, the planets we’ve seen so far in Acolyte seem very generic—snow planet, woodsy planet—and it doesn’t seem the showrunners spent any time considering how to make those locations sparkle and astound. But there I go again with my crotchety old-fashioned yearning for some genuine sensawunda.

    Originally Posted by Infernally Clay
    It's kinda interesting that both Anakin and Osha joined the Order under the assumption their lives would be so much better because being a Jedi would be the greatest thing ever, but then they both end up wanting to leave pretty quickly.
    Not convinced this is the case with Anakin. He spent ten years in the Order, and I don’t recall offhand that he expressed any sentiments towards leaving during that time. When he’s whinging to Padme in AotC, he seems to think that he should be advancing further in the Jedi Order—reinforced by his behavior in RotS—rather than wanting to strike out on his own.

    As I recall, he only effectively “left” once he saw Windu holding a purple saber to Palpatine, and that was very late in the third sequel movie. To judge by his elevator banter with Obi-Wan at the start of AotC, he seems to have enjoyed his first ten years with the Jedi, or at least had fun rescuing his master from time to time.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    Right, and there's a lot of reasons you might not do that. You might do it to cover up shame at some crime. You might do it to give Osha the best chance of adapting so that no one knows that she's a hideous abomination created by Sith Alchemy, you might do it because none of what happened is actually their fault and Indara thought Torbin was being a big stilly guilt-ridden child about it and wasn't going to waste the Council's time on that. There's lots of options for why the Council may not know...assuming they don't know. The only basis for that is that Mae makes a spectacularly hollow threat to reveal it to them, but as previously discussed, I don't think that has anything to do with Torbin's actions.
    Where are you even getting "none of what happened is their fault and they'd just be wasting the time of the Council to report on it"? Did I miss something in the three episodes we've seen so far that suggests the Jedi did nothing wrong? I thought the central mystery of the show was finding out what the Jedi did that was so bad that Mae, one of the two protagonists of the show, would hunt them down one by one to get revenge?

    I'm also not too keen on the use of language such as "hideous abomination". I don't really get why you're framing it like that, nor why you think Sith alchemy had anything to do with it. The coven is implied to have been exiled from the Nightsisters and their witchcraft has been known to do a lot of things, up to and including bringing the dead back to life. The Nightsisters having a forbidden way to create life honestly makes a lot of sense.

    I think this radically overstates what we know and Indara 'allowed' Mae to kill her in order to save someone else. Anything else is extrapolating well beyond what we see.
    It's not really overstating anything. We have four Jedi who did something very bad, although you seem to believe they did nothing wrong at all and that Torbin is just being a silly goose, with one going into self-imposed exile and another entering into a deep form of meditation that nobody but one of the children they wronged could wake him from before he apologises and promptly kills himself. It's really not a huge stretch to believe Indara, a Jedi Master that was clearly well beyond Mae's ability to defeat, allowed Mae to kill her. It's not like Jedi can only hold one object at a time with the Force.

    I thought that they were fairly clear what happened with Osha (who is not one of the Lost Twenty, as they're Twenty Jedi Masters who left the Order, not anyone who happens to fail their tests and decide to bail). She was never able to let go of her grief and loss over what happened and so could never advance in the Jedi.
    Whether she's one of the Lost Twenty is largely irrelevant to the point being made, that being that she was super eager to join and she lasted ten years before she suddenly left. It's unlikely to be as basic and straightforward as "she couldn't let go of her past", because if it was then why did she hang around for ten years? It sounds like an excuse if I'm being honest. Osha doesn't exactly come across as someone whose past trauma affects her ability to function.

    What if Sol intentionally stopped her becoming stronger in the Force because, like the child in the classroom, she would sense his immense guilt over what happened on Brendok and start asking questions he didn't want her to ask?
    "Don't think of it as dying," said Death,
    "Just think of it as leaving early to avoid the rush."

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