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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Mordar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    It is a snub, and intentionally so. Obi-Wan straight up accuses Anakin of using Palpatine to get himself on the Council. That's coming from Obi-Wan, who is the closest thing Anakin has to family.
    This is a hill for me. I don't know what field you are in, but to me this is akin to someone coming into the shop and after finishing their first year think they should be running the place. Post-docs don't sit on the Faculty Council, no matter how good their ESI proposal looks. If you do not deserve something, if you have not earned it, not being given that thing is not a snub.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    I'm just not too sure about removing all agency from the Jedi Council here. The idea that Palpatine engineered a galaxy wide conflict that left his enemies with no right choices just seems like an excuse to absolve the Jedi of their culpability. Palpatine was clever but he wasn't that clever. You say the Jedi couldn't just assassinate the guy but that was their Plan B. Even before Anakin told them that Palpatine was the Sith Lord they had been looking for, the Council had agreed that they would depose Palpatine if he didn't willingly surrender his office and install an interim government until they could figure out how to handle the existing corruption.
    Not removing agency...they plain got beat. Butts handed to them. Not because they are poor, sad victims. They didn't have the skillset needed, and they got housed period. If the Jedi are poor victims it cheapens Sidious' victory. I think I have made it clear that I do not subscribe to that point of view.

    Mace had the right idea to save everything, but even he was too late. It was their Plan Z because it was so against their doctrine, and Sidious knew it. In terms of melodrama or Saturday matinee, he *is* that clever. He read the whole Evil Overlords list and, in the PT, practiced what it laid out. He forgot all about it for the OT...maybe Mace's beating knocked that knowledge out of him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    Plus it's not like Palpatine can be credited for things that happened centuries before he was born. Palpatine didn't instruct the Jedi to abandon the temples and outposts they had manned for centuries. They chose to retreat from them because they felt they were no longer necessary, that the Jedi could just as easily help the galaxy from Coruscant as they could anywhere else, despite the fact that this meant they relied more and more on an increasingly corrupt Galactic Senate for orders and knew less and less about what was happening in the galaxy.

    Case in point, Tales of the Jedi. The Galactic Senate is asked by one of its members to send Jedi to a planet where criminals have kidnapped the politician's son. The Jedi do so, sending Dooku and Qui-Gon to rescue the politician's son. Except it wasn't criminals that kidnapped the politician's son. He wasn't even kidnapped. He had joined with villagers who were trying to get the attention of the Republic because the politician in question was corrupt and abusing his power for personal gain. The Jedi had no idea. How could they? They had no outposts nearby any more, they didn't send people out to do rounds and check on planets any more.

    Time and time again we are shown the Jedi grew complacent. It's not that they didn't care about the galaxy, they just had no presence in it. Systems could be suffering famine and poverty or corruption and the Jedi would never know even though, centuries before, the Jedi would have been on top of such things. The Outer Rim suffered the worst. If it wasn't pirates or criminal organisations like the Hutts, it was native fauna or natural disasters on planets too far from the galactic core to get help. You were truly on your own out there, despite the fact that centuries ago the Jedi had many outposts in the Outer Rim and were never too far away to help. Is it any wonder the people of the Outer Rim systems began to hate the Jedi and the Republic wanted to secede from the Republic and govern themselves?

    That's kind of the point of shows like The Acolyte that are set during the High Republic era, no? To show us what the Jedi Order should have been.
    Agree re: Sidious not getting credit for creating the astropolitical conditions that allowed his scheme to work...I just give him full credit for using every single thing available to him - including those conditions - to end the Jedi and create the Empire.

    This is where I start to get out of my depth. My exposure is really just the films, shows and some of the comics. My only SW novels were Splinter and HS at Stars' End era.

    Did they consolidate/withdraw because they felt they weren't necessary, or because of staffing issues, or because of allowing the government to govern? Based on what I do understand, though, is that the Jedi adopted a doctrine of (close to) non-interference. They did not control the Republic, they did not set policy, they did not have the will or the Jedipower to maintain the presence they once had. Theirs was not the responsibility to feed and clothe and behavior-modify the masses...because that is what even members of the last Council feared they would become...dictators and tyrants. Now I think we can debate the relative value of that, and how it could have been better implemented.

    Do we know they had such a strong Outer Rim presence? Or is it somewhat like a situation where we lament the old days when there were cops on every street corner and hamburgers were 10 cents...when only one of those things was ever true? Does feel like Lucas - who we know liked the Westerns as well as the Samurai - was going a little Marshals on the frontier here...the only law in a lawless area, but even they can't be everywhere.

    Re: Acolyte: I'm hoping for a cool MI-vibe, with power level more like Star Trek TOS rather than TNG (there was always a good chance anything Kirk encountered would have the Enterprise at a severe disadvantage...Picard had the best technology and the best crew and the best lines...).

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  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    Is it a snub? Is someone just enlisted not being promoted to Sergeant after finishing boot being snubbed? Now, he can certainly take it as a snub (Sidious' whole intent in that action), but it is not an insult to not be made the youngest and least experienced Master (ever?). No matter how many droids he's fought, or ships he's shot down...it isn't an insult for a war hero not to be placed on the Joint Chiefs when they were "only" a Captain.
    Anakin isn't someone who just enlisted and finished boot camp. Anakin is a dude who has been performing the work of a general for three years at this point without getting promoted to a master, and even after being appointed to the "Joint Chiefs" has still not been promoted. Every other Jedi we meet who has Anakin's position of command in the Clone Wars is a proper master.

    So yeah it'd definitely be perceived as a snub, especially by someone who has come up in a very militarized Jedi order and doesn't see his position as a general in the republic army and as a Jedi within a religious order as meaningfully separate.

  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    This is a hill for me. I don't know what field you are in, but to me this is akin to someone coming into the shop and after finishing their first year think they should be running the place. Post-docs don't sit on the Faculty Council, no matter how good their ESI proposal looks. If you do not deserve something, if you have not earned it, not being given that thing is not a snub.
    Broadly I agree, and there's the additional and highly salient point that the Jedi Council is obligated to push back against Palpatine attempting to manipulate their inner workings. Allowing the Chancellor to say 'I want Jedi X to be my representative on the Council, and of course you need to make them a Master as a result' is a problem. The Order, by RotS, lacked the strength to oppose part one of that statement, but they could oppose part two and reserve control over their internal promotions.

    Where the Jedi Council fails, however, is how they usually fail. You say this is a fork by Palpatine, and that's true, but life isn't a game of chess and schemes can be brought down or mitigated by making them increasingly complex. In this case the solution is obvious: the Council simply needs to explain itself to Anakin. I've mentioned this before in other threads, but the whole problem can be headed off by Obi-Wan taking Anakin aside and saying 'look, the whole thing about you not being a master is just for the politicians, we can't let it look like the Chancellor controls us. We all know you earned the rank, and you'll be the first person elevated as soon as the war's over.' Anakin, for all his many faults, is not an idiot and would understand this. And yes, it requires the Council bending on the requirements for Jedi Mastery a little bit, but over-promoting someone because of personal popularity despite a lack of emotional maturity is a human practice as old as history itself.

    Of course the Jedi do none of this and they leave Anakin feeling slighted at the moment they need his support the most. This is part and parcel of the council's actions throughout the PT period. The Sith make some move, or some event just happens, and the Council simply eats the loss. To belabor the chess game metaphor, half the time they just don't make a move at all.
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  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    I'll try to keep this brief because honestly these posts are getting silly in length. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    This is a hill for me. I don't know what field you are in, but to me this is akin to someone coming into the shop and after finishing their first year think they should be running the place. Post-docs don't sit on the Faculty Council, no matter how good their ESI proposal looks. If you do not deserve something, if you have not earned it, not being given that thing is not a snub.
    I appreciate that this is a hill for you but the thing is... Anakin wasn't a first year and he didn't think he should run the place either. It's not like eight year old Anakin Skywalker showed up after a week of being a Jedi and demanded Yoda's job. This is Anakin at twenty three years old, after giving the last fifteen years of his life to the Jedi Order, proving time and time again that despite his unorthodox methods he was one of the best Jedi the Order had ever had and they wouldn't have won the war without him. That's not an exaggeration, either. The Republic absolutely would have lost the war if it weren't for Anakin and this is specifically because of his unorthodox methods. The Jedi Council was predictable and Dooku knew them all too well, but Anakin was a wildcard who followed his gut (aka the Force) more than the orders of his superiors and it usually worked out (because the Force was ultimately on his side, not the Jedi or the Sith, on account of him being the Chosen One an' all).

    I'm not saying Anakin necessarily fulfilled the traditional criteria for promotion to Jedi Master, but it's a largely ceremonial position anyway. It would have been a huge deal for a lot of people all over the galaxy for the hero of the war to be officially recognised for his efforts by being promoted to Jedi Master and you know Palpatine would have had parades for the guy. Nothing but good press for the Jedi Order which cares very much about their tenuous public perception. They instead refused him the promotion on principle, not because giving him the promotion would break some code or tradition but because they thought he was using Palpatine to get it. It was really the other way around and they should have known that. As I pointed out before, the Jedi Council has had some pretty arbitrary reasons for promoting Jedi Masters so I'm not sure it's really fair what they did to Anakin.

    Did they consolidate/withdraw because they felt they weren't necessary, or because of staffing issues, or because of allowing the government to govern? Based on what I do understand, though, is that the Jedi adopted a doctrine of (close to) non-interference. They did not control the Republic, they did not set policy, they did not have the will or the Jedipower to maintain the presence they once had. Theirs was not the responsibility to feed and clothe and behavior-modify the masses...because that is what even members of the last Council feared they would become...dictators and tyrants. Now I think we can debate the relative value of that, and how it could have been better implemented.
    In order to defeat the Sith a thousand years ago, the Jedi Order became an army. When I say they became an army I mean they made the Grand Army of the Republic look like a street gang. It was a vast military power, deemed necessary due to the scale the Sith operated at at the time.

    This terrified the Republic, some believing the Jedi only wiped out the Sith so they could take over the galaxy themselves. In the end the Senate ordered the Jedi to dissolve their army and submit to judicial oversight, which they did. It wasn't so much that the Jedi adopted a doctrine of non-intervention but they were basically told to not intervene unless the Senate told them to. Of course, politics being politics, this meant different things every week. Maybe at one time the Senate didn't want the Jedi so much as lifting a finger, while at another the Jedi were given much more freedom to do their thing.

    If you were to single out a specific moment that irrevocably affected the future of the Jedi, however, I would say the Ruusan Reformation would be it.

    Do we know they had such a strong Outer Rim presence? Or is it somewhat like a situation where we lament the old days when there were cops on every street corner and hamburgers were 10 cents...when only one of those things was ever true? Does feel like Lucas - who we know liked the Westerns as well as the Samurai - was going a little Marshals on the frontier here...the only law in a lawless area, but even they can't be everywhere.
    They did. The Jedi of the High Republic era were everywhere and remnants of their presence are all over the place, with long abandoned temples and outposts found on many worlds across the galaxy. Some Jedi were known to fully embrace the cultures they looked out for, even going so far as to adapt Jedi traditions to local customs. While we have no concrete numbers, it is strongly implied that there were many, many more Jedi during the High Republic era than the ten thousand that made up the Jedi Order in the last years of the Republic.

    Even if they couldn't be everywhere at once, they were still there, and Jedi have a habit of being where they're needed. The greatest power of the Jedi is "plot relevance", after all.

    Re: Acolyte: I'm hoping for a cool MI-vibe, with power level more like Star Trek TOS rather than TNG (there was always a good chance anything Kirk encountered would have the Enterprise at a severe disadvantage...Picard had the best technology and the best crew and the best lines...).

    - M
    I kinda just want worldbuilding. As much as I was ecstatic to see Anakin again and live action Ahsoka, I'm pretty tired of prequel/original/sequel era stuff. We've seen it all before. What did bringing Obi-Wan back actually achieve? What did it add? If this show is a big hit we might get more High Republic stuff, similar to how The Mandalorian kicked off all this Episode 6.5 stuff (if you can call it that). That's the best outcome for me.
    Last edited by Infernally Clay; 2024-04-17 at 05:55 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Anakin isn't someone who just enlisted and finished boot camp. Anakin is a dude who has been performing the work of a general for three years at this point without getting promoted to a master, and even after being appointed to the "Joint Chiefs" has still not been promoted. Every other Jedi we meet who has Anakin's position of command in the Clone Wars is a proper master.

    So yeah it'd definitely be perceived as a snub, especially by someone who has come up in a very militarized Jedi order and doesn't see his position as a general in the republic army and as a Jedi within a religious order as meaningfully separate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    I'll try to keep this brief because honestly these posts are getting silly in length. :P
    Isn't that what makes them fun?

    Is it known how long it generally takes for a Padawan to become a Knight and then a Knight to become a Master?

    My perception is that we'd be years and then decades...is that accurate?

    If so, I still land where I was. If that is just wrong, and Knights have become Masters within a shorter time frame...given battlefield promotion, I will capitulate. After all, I'm on record saying he is a top warrior...

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  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    Who said anything about turning him into an infant?
    You did:


    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    There's an arc in The Clone Wars where a bunch of younglings go off to Ilum to acquire lightsaber crystals and it's made pretty clear they had been friends for basically their entire lives. They supported and encouraged each other as they overcame the trials they needed to pass in order to earn their crystals. It was a fantastic look at the bonds being forged between these children before they were selected as padawans and sent off to war, where they would inevitably die within the next year or two. A bit bleak but, hey, that's Star Wars for you.

    The point I'm making is that Anakin never felt like he belonged in the Jedi Order ...
    You very clearly contrasted Anakin to the other padawans by highlighting that the other padawans had all known each other "for basically their entire lives".

    The only way for Anakin to have those same bonds is if he too knew them "for basically his entire life", which means that he would have needed to be taken to the Jedi temple and raised there from infancy (or like 2 or 3 years old), just like all of the other padawans.

    You're the one who made this point. You may not have literally said "the Jedi should have raised Anakin from infancy", but the argument you actually used requires it (or something very very close in terms of starting age). This is precisely why the Order said he was too old to begin the training. It's just strange to me, because you keep jumping around talking about how they failed in their training of him, yet even when you yourself give examples of padawans who did not have the problems Anakin had, you circle directly back to the exact same "Anakin was too old to start the training" point that I have made (and which the Jedi Council directly stated in TPM).

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    If younglings typically undergo around ten or eleven years of Jedi School before they become padawans, why not just put him in the fifth year with other eight year olds? He'd have to do some catching up, sure, but given his natural talent with the Force it's not like it'd be particularly difficult for him to do. You really don't believe putting Anakin in a classroom with children his own age would help him fit in? You honestly believe making an eight year old kid a padawan when you aren't s'posed to become a padawan until you're thirteen or fourteen was the right thing to do?
    Honestly, I think this is just a bit of confusion over the term "padawan". Confusion that Lucas and Disney have not helped to clarify at all since TPM first came out (and some of the subsequent material actually made worse IMO). The same term is used in different ways in the films and series. We broadly think of them in terms of stages of training: Youngling when young. Then padawan when accepted as an apprentice to a knight or master. Then knight when you have proven yourself capable of acting without direct guidance. And then finally master, when you show wisdom to sit on the council and guide the order itself.

    Great. But Anakin is made a padawan right off the bat. But does that necessariliy mean that he was off on missions following Kenobi around the whole time? What exactly does "padawan" mean? I took it in this case to not mean that he was out of temple training and following another jedi around for what would otherwise be "final training", but that since he was not found at a young age, he needed a sponsor who would be more active in his training, and directly responsible for him. The same term "padawan" is used here, but this does not mean that he's not also going to be trained in the temple by other masters, and with other students of various ages and skill levels. That would be a silly way to train Anakin, and it's silly to just assume that is what happened based solely on a term that they made up in the film, and did not use consistently then, nor for most of the following projects either.

    Is there any direct cannonical source stating that Anakin did not spend time traning in the temple with other students his age? The films jump directly from TPM to AotC, so we skip right over his training, and right to him being more or less at the same point that Kenobi was with Qui-Gon in TPM. I'm not aware of any cannon stating what exactly his training consisted during that time period. And yes. I'm sure some rando's wrote some comic books, or wrote some novels stating their own personal pet dumb theories or ideas about what happened, but if they are dumb, and they result in things that make no sense, maybe we should just ignore them in favor of assuming something much more reasonable: Like that it would be astronomically unlikely that 9-10 year old (and completely untrained) Anakin was actively going on dangerous missions with Kenobi, and that the entirety of Anakin's training which would be difficult due to his age already, would be handled by a Jedi knight who was literally promoted a week earlier and has zero experience training anyone.

    Silly me. I'm going to go with "Anakin recieved many years of training at the temple by the same folks who trained the other youngiings and padawans, in the same classes these other younglings and padawans were in". Because that's the only answer that isn't crazy level stupid. And unless there is something in the actual cannonical films or series that state otherwise, I'm going to stick with that assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    Also, as I already said, they didn't promote Anakin to Knight because he met the qualifications because there no qualifications to meet. Under normal circumstances your Jedi master tells the Council they believe you're ready for the Trials and if you complete them you become a Knight. Anakin never underwent the Trials. When the war broke out he and many other padawans were promoted to Knights to fill out the Order's ranks. They didn't need padawan learners they needed generals for the Grand Army of the Republic.
    Where is this stated in cannon? I don't recall this. Admittedly, it's been a while since I watched TCW, but I don't remember it ever being stated that Anakin (or anyone) was promoted to Jedi Knight without having actually qualified for the title.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    As for whether or not Anakin deserved to be promoted to Master, they refused him the position in the most humiliating way possible and then asked him to spy on Palpatine for them. If you can't even appreciate how tone-deaf that is...
    Let's not forget that he wasn't "on the council". He was sitting in on council meetings, basically as a spy for Palpatine. He's an observer. Nothing more.

    When I was a young computer tech, one of my bosses asked me to sit in on some high level staff planning meetings because he could not attend personally. You know what I did in those meetings? I presented whatever reports/info my boss needed me to present, got some face time with more senior members of the org (which was good for my own professional growth), and reported back to my boss on relevant decisioins that were made. You know what I didn't do? Assume that i was part of the senior planning commitee, and was therefore empowered to make decisions and demand that people take them seriously. I also didn't demand a higher job title because "i'm sitting on the planning committee, and that's where senior titled people are, so I must get a promotion!".

    What Anakin expected was, quite frankly, ridiculous. There was nothing at all offensive or humiliating for them to not grant him a title he did not earn or qualify for, simply because someone else who actually did have rank and title asked him to sit in on the meetings for him and report back on what happened. The fact that it was quite obvious (apparently to everyone except Anakin) that Palapatine was using Anaking as a spy on the council, only makes Anakin's demand all the more absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    If we're moving the topic onto Anakin being refused the rank of master, it's worth remembering that Palpatine knew they wouldn't and they played right into his trap by not doing so.
    Oh. I agree that Palpatine had groomed Anakin at that point. But that does not make what Anakin was asking for any less ridiuclous. Part of grooming is making the target think that things that are not remotely normal or "ok" are in fact actually perfectly normal, reasonable, and "ok". Hence Anakin actually thinking he should be made a Master. It's absurd on its face, but he can't see it. That's not the council being wrong, that's Anakin being so twisted around in his thinking that he can no longer think straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    Had the Council made Anakin a Jedi Master, as tradition dictates one must be to sit on the Jedi Council, they would have robbed Palpatine of his ammunition.
    No. It would not have. It was ridiculous for it to even be presented that way. Lots of people attend Jedi Council meetings who are not Masters. You achieve the rank of Master first, and *then* you sit on the council. Just being in the room while a meeting is going on, isn't the same thing. Honestly, this whole sequences was IMO one of the weakest bits in RotS, for the exact reason that even Anakin, as messed up as he was, should not have had an issue with this. We've seen many time's when non-Masters are invited to attend and partipate in a council meeting, yet no one ever screamred about that. So why now? It was a contrived plot point. And a pretty weak one IMO. Certainly, it's not one I woud put a whole lot of weight on, nor assume had any meaning other than "The writers needed one more thing to drive a wedge between Anakin and the Jedi Order" and this is what they came up with.

    Bad writing IMO. But that's what we've got, so whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    Let's not forget that they did this for Obi-Wan already, promoting him to Jedi Master because they wanted him on the Jedi Council. As the Jedi Council proved on multiple occasions they're more than willing to bend the rules or provide arbitrary reasons to promote Jedi to Knight or even Master as it suits them.
    Wait? When did this happen? I'll fully admit that I haven't rewatched the relevant stuff that recently, but that's two bits you have posted that I don't remember being in the material at all. It wasn't even clear to me that Kenobi was a Jedi Master in AotC. Let's not forget that "master" is a label tha gets bandied around (just like padawan) but that seems to have variable meaning.

    Was Kenobi a Master even in RotS? Also unclear. Again, just because someone participates in a Jedi counciil meeting does not mean the are a Jedi Master. The Jedi Masters presuambly run the meetings, and make the final decisions, but it would be pretty restritive to say that no one could physically be in the room, much less talk during the meeting, without first having the rank of Jedi Master granted to them.

    I'd have to go back and watch. But pretty much, unless another Jedi refers to a Jedi with the title "master", that person is not a Jedi master. And even then, that's not correct, since padawan's refer to their instructors as "master" all the time, even if they aren't actual Jedi Masters either. I think you are getting caught up on the words people use (which, is terribly inconsistent in the various films and shows), when what presumably matters is the actual official rank of the Jedi in queston.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    The only reason they didn't promote Anakin to Jedi Master is because they believed he was using his friendship with Palpatine to get on the Council, apparently oblivious to the fact it was obviously Palpatine's idea not Anakin's.
    Huh? Again. Where are you getting this? They didn't grant him the title of Master because he had not earned that title. Even if Palpatine was not involved at all, and Anakin went to them and asked to sit on the council and make decisions and be called a Jedi Master, they would have said no. He was not even remotely close to old enough, or wise enough, or knowledgable enough in the force to have that title conferred upon him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Anakin is absolutely being entitled here but he's also completely right that he is being deliberately snubbed by the council. They don't want to promote him, Palpatine does, so they give him the responsibilities but not the rank. He's not wrong to perceive that as an insult, especially from the perspective of someone who's been doing the exact same amount of fighting and commanding during the war as the masters have been.
    Again. See my point above. And honestly, they don't even give him the responsibilities either. He's allowed to sit in on the meetings, only because Palpatine asked/ordered them to allow him to do this, with the specific intention that he would be attached duty-wise to Palpatine personally and report back to him. Be his "eyes and ears" on the council.

    It's unclear from the info in the film whether Anakin was at all authorized to make decisions or give orders to the council at all though. But even if he did, it was only by being a proxy for Palpatine. This was not something he was granted because of his own capabilities or seniority/authority in the order itself. There should have been no assumption or expection of a special rank as a result of this. In the same way that a Major in the army, sent with a briefcase with orders from a General to another command, may very well be transmitting orders, and may very well be carrying orders/documents back to the General he reports to, but he himself does not have any rank or powers or authority higher than the rank of "Major". Who you work for (or even speak for) does not change your own rank one bit.

    This is not a strange or alien concept, yet it's treated as though it is, and that Anakin not being granted higher rank for doing what is otherwise an administrative task, is somehow assumed to be wrong, or offensvie, or humulitating. It's not. That's absolutely normal and how any rational and sane organization would handle this sort of situation. What's strange is that anyone would think differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    The Jedi are also not wrong to recognize that Anakin is not mature and not particularly stable, not cut out to be a master. Both sides have an understandable perspective here and are being pitted against each other deliberately.
    Nah. I disagree. The Jedi "side" on this makes sense and is correct. The "side" that Anakin is on is pretty much complete wackadoodle nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Anakin isn't someone who just enlisted and finished boot camp. Anakin is a dude who has been performing the work of a general for three years at this point without getting promoted to a master, and even after being appointed to the "Joint Chiefs" has still not been promoted. Every other Jedi we meet who has Anakin's position of command in the Clone Wars is a proper master.
    By your own analogy, Anakin is someone who just finished boot camp three years ago and is suddenly being appointed to the Joint Chiefs. Except it's not by merit, it's by political appointment. Promotion is ridiculous for this. Being placed on the Joint Chiefs is ridiculous enough, which Anakin should damned well recognize, but he's blinded by his own ideals of forcing people to do what he thinks is right, so he is just fine with being placed in higher position of power.

    Sure, he performed the work of a general for three years, as did literally every other Jedi knight. I'm sorry, but claiming he should be promoted for doing the same job everyone else did falls flat for me, unless you want to claim that all Jedi knights should have been made Masters.

    Anakin gave his life to the Order? Yay! So did every other Jedi! Who the hell cares how many years he served, how many years he was a general? It's always going to be exactly as much, if not less, than every other Jedi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    Isn't that what makes them fun?

    Is it known how long it generally takes for a Padawan to become a Knight and then a Knight to become a Master?

    My perception is that we'd be years and then decades...is that accurate?

    If so, I still land where I was. If that is just wrong, and Knights have become Masters within a shorter time frame...given battlefield promotion, I will capitulate. After all, I'm on record saying he is a top warrior...

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    There are no specific rules as far as I'm aware because it's usually down to the individual and their abilities but we can use a rule of thumb. Younglings typically become padawans around fourteen years old if we are to believe the precedent set by the Jedi we know about, for example, while Obi-Wan was still a padawan at twenty five and was promoted to Jedi Knight because he had defeated Darth Maul and couldn't take on a padawan while he was still one himself. The Council bent the rules for Obi-Wan, promoting him without requiring he complete the Jedi Trials, so it's possible if not likely he was young for a Jedi Knight.

    We don't really know the full ins and outs with regard to how you become a Jedi Master but we do know of three ways. One is to be given a seat to the Council, which is how Mace Windu and Obi-Wan were promoted to Jedi Master. Another is to successfully train a padawan to knighthood, which is what is apparently the most common way. The third way we know about was to "gain recognition for their service to the Republic".

    Ironically enough, if you do indeed become a Jedi Master after successfully training a padawan to knighthood, it's possible the Jedi Council owed Anakin a promotion to Jedi Master the moment Mace Windu offered Ahsoka her knighthood (although, let's be real, he was just covering his butt since he was the most vocal about surrendering Ahsoka to the Republic for execution).

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    By your own analogy, Anakin is someone who just finished boot camp three years ago and is suddenly being appointed to the Joint Chiefs. Except it's not by merit, it's by political appointment. Promotion is ridiculous for this. Being placed on the Joint Chiefs is ridiculous enough, which Anakin should damned well recognize, but he's blinded by his own ideals of forcing people to do what he thinks is right, so he is just fine with being placed in higher position of power.

    Sure, he performed the work of a general for three years, as did literally every other Jedi knight. I'm sorry, but claiming he should be promoted for doing the same job everyone else did falls flat for me, unless you want to claim that all Jedi knights should have been made Masters.

    Anakin gave his life to the Order? Yay! So did every other Jedi! Who the hell cares how many years he served, how many years he was a general? It's always going to be exactly as much, if not less, than every other Jedi.
    Well now that you mention it, what would be wrong with promoting the Jedi Knights that survived the war and served the Republic faithfully throughout? You don't think surviving a galactic war deserves recognition? It would be like the scene in A New Hope, except with Jedi Knights being honoured for their service with a promotion to Jedi Master. Doesn't sound particularly unreasonable to me.

    Or are you going to argue that Pong Krell or Taron Malicos were more Jedi Master material than Anakin Skywalker?

    I will point out, however, that Errorname is correct. Anakin did not perform the same work as other Jedi Knights during the war. He was one of the most prolific generals of the war and his peers were Jedi Masters not Jedi Knights. In fact I don't really recall ever seeing that many Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars, but that might simply be because Jedi Masters went on the most dangerous missions during the war and that's the material the show focused on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    I will point out, however, that Errorname is correct. Anakin did not perform the same work as other Jedi Knights during the war. He was one of the most prolific generals of the war and his peers were Jedi Masters not Jedi Knights. In fact I don't really recall ever seeing that many Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars, but that might simply be because Jedi Masters went on the most dangerous missions during the war and that's the material the show focused on.
    There's a very bad tendency in Star Wars media to make Jedi characters Jedi Masters rather than Jedi Knights to make them seem important. This is sufficiently bad that in the various Wookieepedia categories for Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters the Masters outnumber the Knights even though presumably less than 1 in 10 Jedi Knights even make it to the rank of Master. As a consequence there are only a handful of stories focused on heroic Jedi Knights who are not Anakin. Ironically, the most complete of those stories might be the Republic Commando novels, since Etain Tur-Murkan was knighted early in the series (the end of book one if I recall correctly).

    That said, Anakin did outperform his peers and there is evidence that performance during the Clone Wars did allow for some Jedi to achieve the rank of Master at quite young ages as a result of their war experience. The best example is Aayla Secura who appears to have been promoted during the Clone Wars from knight to master and who had only been a knight for 6-7 years at the time. Anakin and Aayla share a lot of similarities in terms of resume, with Aayla also being noted as proactive, hotheaded, and somewhat reckless, but Anakin's abilities and record absolutely crush Aayla's in every way. She was also only a handful of years older than him.

    Anakin, of course, knew Aayla personally - she's one of a very few characters who even plausibly qualify as one of his peers in the Order - and would have been very aware of her promotion. He no doubt thought that since he'd accomplished everything Aayla had, only about ten times over, that he obviously deserved the rank of master. He probably assumed it was merely a matter of time. Anakin is not an idiot and is fully capable of understanding arguments like 'you haven't been a knight long enough' even if he would find them infuriating.

    We, the audience, know that the reason Anakin wasn't made a master had nothing to do with his accomplishments and everything to do with his emotional maturity and understanding of the Force. No doubt the Jedi Council came to such conclusions in their internal deliberations, and they weren't wrong. Where they screwed up was in personnel management. Mace Windu breaks the news to Anakin in a manner absolutely guaranteed to make him feel unjustly slighted and to set him off. You don't tell the hot-head he didn't get promoted because he's a hot-head and expect him to not get mad!

    Yes, Anakin's hot-headedness is his problem, but since the Jedi Order continued to keep him within its ranks, managing that problem was also an issue for the Order, and they really screwed that up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    There's a very bad tendency in Star Wars media to make Jedi characters Jedi Masters rather than Jedi Knights to make them seem important. This is sufficiently bad that in the various Wookieepedia categories for Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters the Masters outnumber the Knights even though presumably less than 1 in 10 Jedi Knights even make it to the rank of Master. As a consequence there are only a handful of stories focused on heroic Jedi Knights who are not Anakin. Ironically, the most complete of those stories might be the Republic Commando novels, since Etain Tur-Murkan was knighted early in the series (the end of book one if I recall correctly).

    That said, Anakin did outperform his peers and there is evidence that performance during the Clone Wars did allow for some Jedi to achieve the rank of Master at quite young ages as a result of their war experience. The best example is Aayla Secura who appears to have been promoted during the Clone Wars from knight to master and who had only been a knight for 6-7 years at the time. Anakin and Aayla share a lot of similarities in terms of resume, with Aayla also being noted as proactive, hotheaded, and somewhat reckless, but Anakin's abilities and record absolutely crush Aayla's in every way. She was also only a handful of years older than him.

    Anakin, of course, knew Aayla personally - she's one of a very few characters who even plausibly qualify as one of his peers in the Order - and would have been very aware of her promotion. He no doubt thought that since he'd accomplished everything Aayla had, only about ten times over, that he obviously deserved the rank of master. He probably assumed it was merely a matter of time. Anakin is not an idiot and is fully capable of understanding arguments like 'you haven't been a knight long enough' even if he would find them infuriating.

    We, the audience, know that the reason Anakin wasn't made a master had nothing to do with his accomplishments and everything to do with his emotional maturity and understanding of the Force. No doubt the Jedi Council came to such conclusions in their internal deliberations, and they weren't wrong. Where they screwed up was in personnel management. Mace Windu breaks the news to Anakin in a manner absolutely guaranteed to make him feel unjustly slighted and to set him off. You don't tell the hot-head he didn't get promoted because he's a hot-head and expect him to not get mad!

    Yes, Anakin's hot-headedness is his problem, but since the Jedi Order continued to keep him within its ranks, managing that problem was also an issue for the Order, and they really screwed that up.
    I can't tell if Mace Windu had a negative charisma score or he was just a jerk. It's legitimately odd how many times his abrasive personality seems to cause problems and his seemingly complete lack of self-awareness doesn't exactly help. Every other Jedi Master on the Council apologised profusely to Ahsoka for what she went through because they didn't stand by her, you even had Anakin apologising even though he did nothing wrong and everything right, but what did Mace Windu do?

    "This was totally a test to see if you were ready to become a Jedi Knight and you passed, so we'll let you become one."

    If I were Ahsoka I would've left the Order at that remark, too.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    There's a very bad tendency in Star Wars media to make Jedi characters Jedi Masters rather than Jedi Knights to make them seem important. This is sufficiently bad that in the various Wookieepedia categories for Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters the Masters outnumber the Knights even though presumably less than 1 in 10 Jedi Knights even make it to the rank of Master. As a consequence there are only a handful of stories focused on heroic Jedi Knights who are not Anakin. Ironically, the most complete of those stories might be the Republic Commando novels, since Etain Tur-Murkan was knighted early in the series (the end of book one if I recall correctly).

    That said, Anakin did outperform his peers and there is evidence that performance during the Clone Wars did allow for some Jedi to achieve the rank of Master at quite young ages as a result of their war experience. The best example is Aayla Secura who appears to have been promoted during the Clone Wars from knight to master and who had only been a knight for 6-7 years at the time. Anakin and Aayla share a lot of similarities in terms of resume, with Aayla also being noted as proactive, hotheaded, and somewhat reckless, but Anakin's abilities and record absolutely crush Aayla's in every way. She was also only a handful of years older than him.

    Anakin, of course, knew Aayla personally - she's one of a very few characters who even plausibly qualify as one of his peers in the Order - and would have been very aware of her promotion. He no doubt thought that since he'd accomplished everything Aayla had, only about ten times over, that he obviously deserved the rank of master. He probably assumed it was merely a matter of time. Anakin is not an idiot and is fully capable of understanding arguments like 'you haven't been a knight long enough' even if he would find them infuriating.

    We, the audience, know that the reason Anakin wasn't made a master had nothing to do with his accomplishments and everything to do with his emotional maturity and understanding of the Force. No doubt the Jedi Council came to such conclusions in their internal deliberations, and they weren't wrong. Where they screwed up was in personnel management. Mace Windu breaks the news to Anakin in a manner absolutely guaranteed to make him feel unjustly slighted and to set him off. You don't tell the hot-head he didn't get promoted because he's a hot-head and expect him to not get mad!

    Yes, Anakin's hot-headedness is his problem, but since the Jedi Order continued to keep him within its ranks, managing that problem was also an issue for the Order, and they really screwed that up.
    All his actions are added in after the fact, storytelling-wise. He already didn't become a master, and all later Clone Wars stories can have him do whatever they want, that fact will not change. It could conceivably further explore the already-present themes of why he didn't become a master despite his accomplishments, but I've seen both TCW and RotS, and neither one had much interest in introducing that theme, much less exploring it. Anakin isn't upset that hes not promoted to Master because he earned it through his works and successes. Hes upset that the incredibly prestigious position he's gifted after only three years as a Jedi Knight, in an organization of ten thousand, doesn't immediately grant him a title upgrade. Because title is all it is. A rose by any other name. He's already gifted a seat on the goddamned Jedi Council! He's one of the most elite Jedi in the galaxy, sitting on the most prestigious seats of power they have, and that's not enough. He feels spurned because he didn't get a new faceplate for his desk. That's not the Jedi insulting him or mistreating him, that's him being petty and greedy over inconsequential things.

    Also, sure, you can't tell the hot-head he didn't get promoted because he's a hot-head and expect him to not get mad, but that's also the hot-head's problem. Self-introspection is the key there, which he should realize at being told that, even if it might take effort and time. Instead, he just agrees to go slaughter kindergartens. He was already incredibly troubled and in insane turmoil, sure, but you can't fault the Jedi for not helping with that when he never told them anything about it. Can't help a person who doesn't want to be helped and all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sure, he performed the work of a general for three years, as did literally every other Jedi knight. I'm sorry, but claiming he should be promoted for doing the same job everyone else did falls flat for me, unless you want to claim that all Jedi knights should have been made Masters.
    Literally all the Jedi we see doing the same job as Anakin in the Clone Wars are masters. He's given a high-level command and put in charge of some of the most important campaigns of the war working as an equal in rank to sitting members of the council.

    I'm not even saying he should be promoted, every reason they give for not wanting to is justified, but the Jedi put a lot of responsibility on his shoulders because he was very good at his job and then denied him the rank and titles associated with those responsibilities, of course he sees that as a snub.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    I can't tell if Mace Windu had a negative charisma score or he was just a jerk. It's legitimately odd how many times his abrasive personality seems to cause problems and his seemingly complete lack of self-awareness doesn't exactly help.
    A bit of both, I think. Mace kind of draws the short straw of the main prequel Jedi of being the one who wasn't in the original trilogy and is thus the least important that the audience likes, so he gets the worst showing. He still gets cool moments, but he also ends up being the one who represents the worst of the Order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    He's already gifted a seat on the goddamned Jedi Council! He's one of the most elite Jedi in the galaxy, sitting on the most prestigious seats of power they have, and that's not enough. He feels spurned because he didn't get a new faceplate for his desk. That's not the Jedi insulting him or mistreating him, that's him being petty and greedy over inconsequential things.
    See, I think being given the fancy new desk but not the faceplate is the actual snub. Not getting promoted because your elders think you aren't ready for the responsibility is one thing, getting a de facto promotion out of necessity but with your boss making it clear that you haven't really been promoted is a clear insult.
    Last edited by Errorname; 2024-04-17 at 09:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Literally all the Jedi we see doing the same job as Anakin in the Clone Wars are masters.
    Canonically, no, Jedi Knights were also generals. Hell, Ahsoka, a padawan, commanded troops independently on numerous occasions, even if her command was smaller and she wasn't a full general.
    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    He's given a high-level command and put in charge of some of the most important campaigns of the war working as an equal in rank to sitting members of the council.
    He's an effective warrior. However, we know wars don't make one great. Are Jedi promoted to master because they are strategically effective? (Also, his effectiveness plays heavily into Anakin being pushed hard into Mary Sue territory in TCW. How can Filoni show Anakin as a good Jedi? By making him one of the most brilliant tacticians ever, of course!)
    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    I'm not even saying he should be promoted, every reason they give for not wanting to is justified, but the Jedi put a lot of responsibility on his shoulders because he was very good at his job and then denied him the rank and titles associated with those responsibilities, of course he sees that as a snub.
    They didn't. They explicitly gave him rank and responsibility, in the form of letting him he on the council! All he didn't get was the Master title. Please, tell me, do new powers come with that title? Or maybe it's about respect. Master is pretty lofty, only several thousand at s time held that title. Surely more lofty than being on thr Jedi Council, which had twelve members, they practically give that away.

    Even if you want to say that nobody on the council had ever not been a Master, you can also turn that around in that Anakin, who was still a Knight, was already on the council! Damned impressive, that!

    But no. Anakin needs the title. And sure, we can read that as Anakin seeing i lt as a snub, despite the Jedi not ever snubbing him and making exception after exception to accommodate him. But we fan also read that as Anakin being vain, selfish, petty, and controlling all of which were already established in his character. So between the options or "we never see the Jedi act like this" and "this is entirely in line with Anakin's character", I'm going to choose the latter interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    A bit of both, I think. Mace kind of draws the short straw of the main prequel Jedi of being the one who wasn't in the original trilogy and is thus the least important that the audience likes, so he gets the worst showing. He still gets cool moments, but he also ends up being the one who represents the worst of the Order.
    For my money, Windu is one of the worst characters in the Jedi Order. I don't know how much of that was due to Lucas and how much was due to casting Sam Jackson, but it doesn't affect how the character sucked.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2024-04-17 at 09:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Also, sure, you can't tell the hot-head he didn't get promoted because he's a hot-head and expect him to not get mad, but that's also the hot-head's problem. Self-introspection is the key there, which he should realize at being told that, even if it might take effort and time.
    Anyone who serves in a leadership role needs to know their subordinates and to assign them positions and tasks that are appropriate to their skill and temperament. People are not perfect, they have certain jobs they can handle and certain treatment they will tolerate and certain treatment they will not.

    Anakin fails the various tests that are thrown at him in RotS. That's absolutely true and ultimately that's on him and his large collection of character flaws.

    At the same time the Jedi Council sets him up for failure. They fail to manage him properly and to assign him tasks that are appropriate to his abilities and mental state. They are in fact so massively bad at this that Palpatine can openly suggest to them a solution that will solve all their problems: sending Anakin to go kill Grievous, and they reject it out of hand. Throughout the course of RotS the Jedi Council makes one failure of leadership after another, and while this is not directly responsible for their ultimate doom, it does contribute. Multiple parties can be at fault for a single awful outcome.

    Now, maybe Anakin's character flaws were such that he was unmanageable as a Jedi. I am very sympathetic to that argument. However, that option is foreclosed upon by the conclusion of TPM. The Jedi Council makes the choice to train Anakin and, for better or worse, he is the Chosen One. The Council needs him. They can't just fire his ***. This is important because it means Anakin has leverage over the Jedi and he, at least on an intuitive level, knows this. Giving Anakin the rank of master is, with regard to him personally "petty and inconsequential" so they should have done it. Over-prompting him as a sop to his ego means nothing. Now, I maintain they should have not done it openly as a means to push back against Palpatine, but promising hm the rank of master costs the Jedi Council nothing and just might have saved the galaxy.

    He was already incredibly troubled and in insane turmoil, sure, but you can't fault the Jedi for not helping with that when he never told them anything about it. Can't help a person who doesn't want to be helped and all.
    I can, and do, fault the Jedi Order for not noticing that he was troubled and in turmoil. Basically every agency on Earth that conducts 'high-risk' jobs, including law enforcement, the military, medicine, and others, has all sorts of programs in place to try and detect, catch, and solve mental turmoil in their personnel. Beyond simple kindness, this is an important aspect of maintaining capacity, since people who break can't work for you anymore.

    The evidence we had is that the Jedi Order handled this very, very badly during the Clone Wars, with Jedi breaking apart all over the place. This isn't entirely their fault, they clearly weren't ready to deal with the strain created by the transition from peacekeeping to active military duty, but they also don't even seem to have tried. So Jedi such as Ahsoka, Bariss, and even Pong Krell were all lost to the Order.

    Also, Anakin does want to be helped! He wants it desperately. He goes to Yoda begging for it! The problem is that the Jedi Order's bad rules make it impossible to ask honestly. He feels and is trapped, and when pushed by Palpatine, breaks. Yes, the ultimate responsibility is his - very much like so many other Jedi in RotS he chooses the worst possible option and loses everything as a consequence - but others failed to help him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    He's an effective warrior. However, we know wars don't make one great. Are Jedi promoted to master because they are strategically effective?
    They're not supposed to be, but the Order is losing it's way and becoming increasingly integrated into the Grand Republic Army, so not surprisingly that the members who excelled the most at that expect their military success to be reflected by their rank in the order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    They didn't. They explicitly gave him rank and responsibility, in the form of letting him he on the council! All he didn't get was the Master title. Please, tell me, do new powers come with that title?
    No, but combined with the knowledge that they did not want him there it is a sign that they do not consider him a legitimate member of the council despite his position on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    For my money, Windu is one of the worst characters in the Jedi Order. I don't know how much of that was due to Lucas and how much was due to casting Sam Jackson, but it doesn't affect how the character sucked.
    Windu sucks in ways that would have been easy to avoid and feel deliberate as a result. Not a likeable dude by any stretch but I find him pretty believable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Anyone who serves in a leadership role needs to know their subordinates and to assign them positions and tasks that are appropriate to their skill and temperament. People are not perfect, they have certain jobs they can handle and certain treatment they will tolerate and certain treatment they will not.
    Yeah, and Anakin is a very dangerous subordinate to have. Very talented in ways which demand to be used, but proud and ambitious in ways that make him difficult to control and that same talent that makes him valuable could be turned against you. I don't envy them here, not an easy person to manage.
    Last edited by Errorname; 2024-04-17 at 10:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    At the same time the Jedi Council sets him up for failure. They fail to manage him properly and to assign him tasks that are appropriate to his abilities and mental state. They are in fact so massively bad at this that Palpatine can openly suggest to them a solution that will solve all their problems: sending Anakin to go kill Grievous, and they reject it out of hand.
    "lolz just kill the leader" is not the grand plan that solves everything that it might at first seem. And even if actually feasible, assassination is probably not something the Jedi would be cool with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    The Jedi Council makes the choice to train Anakin and, for better or worse, he is the Chosen One. The Council needs him. They can't just fire his ***.
    Sure they can. Again, he doesn't have a "Chosen One" birthmark. As far as the other know he's likely the chosen one, but not guaranteed, and even if he is, if he, say, goes and kills entire villages of people im vengeance, yeah, they'd probably still fire his ass. More likely try to figure out some sort of Jedi prison or something, because that is kind of wildly out of line with what anyone should do, much less someone who is ij a public service position.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Over-prompting him as a sop to his ego means nothing. Now, I maintain they should have not done it openly as a means to push back against Palpatine, but promising hm the rank of master costs the Jedi Council nothing and just might have saved the galaxy.
    They're Jedi, not babysitters. If he needs his ego to be sopped, then he shouldn't be a Jedi.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    I can, and do, fault the Jedi Order for not noticing that he was troubled and in turmoil. Basically every agency on Earth that conducts 'high-risk' jobs, including law enforcement, the military, medicine, and others, has all sorts of programs in place to try and detect, catch, and solve mental turmoil in their personnel. Beyond simple kindness, this is an important aspect of maintaining capacity, since people who break can't work for you anymore.
    Yes, and i can absolutely guarantee you that these programs are not foolproof, do nothing whatsoever to curb future or ongoing behavior, and can miss past behavior.

    Fun fact! These programs work best when the person is forthcoming. Anakin was not forthcoming, despite what you claim next:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Also, Anakin does want to be helped! He wants it desperately. He goes to Yoda begging for it! The problem is that the Jedi Order's bad rules make it impossible to ask honestly. He feels and is trapped, and when pushed by Palpatine, breaks. Yes, the ultimate responsibility is his - very much like so many other Jedi in RotS he chooses the worst possible option and loses everything as a consequence - but others failed to help him.
    I don't know what you were watching, but it wasn't Star Wars. Anakin hid everything from them. His ideas that fascism is ideal governing, his personal feelings towards others, that he committed a small-scale genocide, you name it, Anakin hid it. The tusken murder is at least somewhat understandable, he doesn't want to be booted out, but even that could possibly have been something they tried to help with. He didn't want help with any of it. Anakin asked how to stop someone from dying Yoda told him death comes for everyone and being a Jedi means sacrifice. Anakin responds saying he won't let the death happen. That is not a man who wants to he helped. He didn't want actual answers, he was looking dor what he wanted to hear and was upset when he didn't get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    The evidence we had is that the Jedi Order handled this very, very badly during the Clone Wars, with Jedi breaking apart all over the place. This isn't entirely their fault, they clearly weren't ready to deal with the strain created by the transition from peacekeeping to active military duty, but they also don't even seem to have tried. So Jedi such as Ahsoka, Bariss, and even Pong Krell were all lost to the Order.
    That I'll agree with. And, for mt money, it stems mostly from taking on the clone army without really questioning it.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2024-04-17 at 10:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    "lolz just kill the leader" is not the grand plan that solves everything that it might at first seem. And even if actually feasible, assassination is probably not something the Jedi would be cool with.
    The Jedi literally do send somebody to kill Grievous (not really a proper assassination, Obi-Wan brings an entire army with him, but still), and sending Anakin on that mission at least keeps him off coruscant and away from palpatine for a bit, buys them some time.
    Last edited by Errorname; 2024-04-17 at 10:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Literally all the Jedi we see doing the same job as Anakin in the Clone Wars are masters. He's given a high-level command and put in charge of some of the most important campaigns of the war working as an equal in rank to sitting members of the council.

    I'm not even saying he should be promoted, every reason they give for not wanting to is justified, but the Jedi put a lot of responsibility on his shoulders because he was very good at his job and then denied him the rank and titles associated with those responsibilities, of course he sees that as a snub.
    The weirdest thing is you could understand if the Jedi Council verbalised their reasoning. If they were like “you’re a great warrior but you’re a terrible Jedi so we aren’t promoting you to Jedi Master”, it would at least provide a valid reason. It’s fine if people want to believe that’s why the Jedi Council refused to make Anakin a Jedi Master, but as far as the movie is concerned the only reason we’re given is this…

    OBI-WAN: Listen to me, Anakin. The fact of the matter is you're too close to the Chancellor. The Council doesn't like it when he interferes in Jedi affairs.

    ANAKIN: I swear to you, I didn't ask to be put on the Council…

    OBI-WAN: But it's what you wanted! Your friendship with Chancellor Palpatine seems to have paid off.

    ANAKIN: That has nothing to do with this.

    OBI-WAN: Anakin, regardless of how it happened, you find yourself in a delicate situation.

    ANAKIN: You mean divided loyalties.

    OBI-WAN: I warned you there was tension between the Council and the Chancellor. I was very clear. Why didn't you listen? You walked right into it.

    Even Obi-Wan, Anakin’s closest friend and brother, accuses him of using his friendship with Palpatine to get himself on the Council and implies he has told him in the past that he should distance himself from Palpatine to prove his loyalty to the Jedi Council. That’s kinda messed up and to blame Anakin for “walking right into it” is crazy. This is the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic we’re talking about. Even the Jedi Council doesn’t say no to him yet they expect Anakin to burn that bridge for them?

    See, I think being given the fancy new desk but not the faceplate is the actual snub. Not getting promoted because your elders think you aren't ready for the responsibility is one thing, getting a de facto promotion out of necessity but with your boss making it clear that you haven't really been promoted is a clear insult.
    They didn’t even give Anakin that. He believed he was being excluded from the Council and he wasn’t wrong. The Council did not trust Anakin. They only let him sit in on meetings they wanted Palpatine to know about and we saw them, on screen, withhold information from Anakin. They didn’t tell him of their intention to demand Palpatine steps down, nor did they tell him they wanted Palpatine to know that Obi-Wan was about to take out Grievous to gauge his reaction and determine their next step and whether they’d have to depose Palpatine by force.
    "Don't think of it as dying," said Death,
    "Just think of it as leaving early to avoid the rush."

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    The Jedi literally do send somebody to kill Grievous (not really a proper assassination, Obi-Wan brings an entire army with him, but still), and sending Anakin on that mission at least keeps him off coruscant and away from palpatine for a bit, buys them some time.
    Fair. Again, I'll never accuse Filoni of being a competent showrunner. Though it also takes the sails out of "Palatine offered this super valuable plan to Anakin".
    Last edited by Peelee; 2024-04-17 at 10:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Fair. Again, I'll never accuse Filoni of being a competent showrunner. Though it also takes the sails out of "Palatine offered this super valuable plan to Anakin".
    This is in the movie. The Jedi send Obi-Wan to kill Grievous, which is George's excuse for getting Obi-Wan off Coruscant so Anakin can't go to him about Palpatine and so Obi-Wan is in the crosshairs of Order 66. Filoni had nothing to do with this.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    The Jedi literally do send somebody to kill Grievous (not really a proper assassination, Obi-Wan brings an entire army with him, but still), and sending Anakin on that mission at least keeps him off coruscant and away from palpatine for a bit, buys them some time.
    It’s amusing to think the Council could have sent Anakin with Obi-Wan to deal with Grievous or even to Mandalore to help Ahsoka capture Maul and either option would have completely screwed up Palpatine’s plan, especially the latter given Maul knew everything Palpatine was planning to do and had attempted to lure Anakin to Mandalore to kill him (although as Ahsoka points out this would have ended very badly for Maul). You have Anakin anywhere else in the galaxy besides Coruscant when Order 66 goes down and Palpatine loses him every time. Depending on who you ask, it’s possible Mace Windu would have killed Palpatine there and then as well.

    Kinda makes you wonder how much of Palpatine’s success boiled down to right place, right time.
    "Don't think of it as dying," said Death,
    "Just think of it as leaving early to avoid the rush."

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    You have Anakin anywhere else in the galaxy besides Coruscant when Order 66 goes down and Palpatine loses him every time. Depending on who you ask, it’s possible Mace Windu would have killed Palpatine there and then as well.
    Order 66 isn't happening without Palpatine being confident that he has Anakin on-side, and Mace doesn't attempt the arrest without intel he gets from Anakin. It's possible this averts the worst outcome, Obi-Wan being present when things turn ugly might be enough to swing Anakin the other way, but hardly guaranteed

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    This is in the movie. The Jedi send Obi-Wan to kill Grievous, which is George's excuse for getting Obi-Wan off Coruscant so Anakin can't go to him about Palpatine and so Obi-Wan is in the crosshairs of Order 66. Filoni had nothing to do with this.
    Fair, forgot about that. Though I'm also not much kinder to late-stage Lucas. Regardless, though, I'll concede on that point.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Order 66 isn't happening without Palpatine being confident that he has Anakin on-side, and Mace doesn't attempt the arrest without intel he gets from Anakin. It's possible this averts the worst outcome, Obi-Wan being present when things turn ugly might be enough to swing Anakin the other way, but hardly guaranteed
    Hard to say. The Council made it pretty clear that as soon as they received word of Grievous’ defeat, they were marching to Palpatine’s office and demanding he step down.

    Kl-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from office.

    MACE WiNDU: That could be a dangerous move ... the Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition . . .

    Kl-ADI-MUNDI: . . . and replace the Congress with Senators who are not filled with greed and corruption.

    Anakin telling Windu that Palpatine is a Sith Lord may have sped things up, but Palpatine’s window was undoubtedly closing regardless. If he didn’t use Order 66 while the Jedi were still spread thinly across the galaxy it never would have worked. It’s not like he would actually give up those emergency powers anyway, right?
    "Don't think of it as dying," said Death,
    "Just think of it as leaving early to avoid the rush."

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Order 66 isn't happening without Palpatine being confident that he has Anakin on-side, and Mace doesn't attempt the arrest without intel he gets from Anakin. It's possible this averts the worst outcome, Obi-Wan being present when things turn ugly might be enough to swing Anakin the other way, but hardly guaranteed
    I doubt that. Anakin is a jewel in Palpy's crown, but not absolutely necessary, and Palps wouldn't let his opportunity slip by just for him.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    Hard to say. The Council made it pretty clear that as soon as they received word of Grievous’ defeat, they were marching to Palpatine’s office and demanding he step down.
    You're right that if they force his hand, Palpatine will fire it off without recruiting Anakin, I just assumed they were not going to force his hand by committing to a coup immediately without the knowledge that Palpatine has been a sith the whole time, although maybe they surprise me

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    You're right that if they force his hand, Palpatine will fire it off without recruiting Anakin, I just assumed they were not going to force his hand by committing to a coup immediately without the knowledge that Palpatine has been a sith the whole time, although maybe they surprise me
    I think they would. Even without knowing that Palpatine was Sidious, there was significant tension between the Council and the Chancellor. He apparently meddled in Jedi affairs a lot and they didn’t like it, plus they were already very unhappy that he remained in office far longer than he should have and obviously had accrued vast power under the pretence of needing it for the war. You don’t just spitball “we need to remove Palpatine from office and take control of the Senate until we get rid of the corrupt politicians he has surrounded himself with and ensure a peaceful transfer of power to a new government”, y’know? It’s evidently something the Council members have been thinking about doing for some time, even if they haven’t spoken about it out loud.

    Which, when you think about it, is actually kinda terrifying. Imagine the Jedi showing up to the Senate chambers and saying “we’re taking over”. What exactly were they going to do with Palpatine anyway? You can’t arrest the guy because whatever he wanted to do, he made it legal for him to do. The Senate isn’t going to impeach him, either, because they’re already in his pocket. Were the Jedi going to remove anyone from office by force that didn’t do what they said?

    They do that and Order 66 suddenly becomes the only way Palpatine can defend democracy.
    "Don't think of it as dying," said Death,
    "Just think of it as leaving early to avoid the rush."

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    I think they would. Even without knowing that Palpatine was Sidious, there was significant tension between the Council and the Chancellor. He apparently meddled in Jedi affairs a lot and they didn’t like it, plus they were already very unhappy that he remained in office far longer than he should have and obviously had accrued vast power under the pretence of needing it for the war. You don’t just spitball “we need to remove Palpatine from office and take control of the Senate until we get rid of the corrupt politicians he has surrounded himself with and ensure a peaceful transfer of power to a new government”, y’know? It’s evidently something the Council members have been thinking about doing for some time, even if they haven’t spoken about it out loud.

    Which, when you think about it, is actually kinda terrifying. Imagine the Jedi showing up to the Senate chambers and saying “we’re taking over”. What exactly were they going to do with Palpatine anyway? You can’t arrest the guy because whatever he wanted to do, he made it legal for him to do. The Senate isn’t going to impeach him, either, because they’re already in his pocket. Were the Jedi going to remove anyone from office by force that didn’t do what they said?

    They do that and Order 66 suddenly becomes the only way Palpatine can defend democracy.
    Presumably, they would arrest him. His actions being legal because he made them legal doesn't stop that, theyre taking over the government in this hypothetical. They would probably put like Bail Organa or someone in as temporary head of state to keep the politics going.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Presumably, they would arrest him. His actions being legal because he made them legal doesn't stop that, theyre taking over the government in this hypothetical. They would probably put like Bail Organa or someone in as temporary head of state to keep the politics going.
    Well, no, you can't really arrest the head of the Galactic Republic when nothing he has done is actually illegal. Remember that Palpatine is a very careful and shrewd man and if he's good at anything it's manipulating the legal and political systems to his advantage. If it wasn't legal, he'd make it legal.

    I would assume the Jedi would have to get the Senate to impeach Palpatine to remove him from office, but it's debatable if the Senate even has that power any more (after all Palpatine spent several years transferring the power of the Senate to himself and it'd be a very Palpatine thing to do to make it so only the Supreme Chancellor can impeach the Supreme Chancellor) and it's unlikely the Senate would vote to impeach Palpatine anyway. By that point in time the Senate was deeply corrupt and Palpatine's popularity had never been higher since he's a politician and they always get the credit for successful military campaigns.

    To me it was a lose / lose situation. If the Jedi found out he was a Sith Lord and tried to take him out, he'd call it treason and activate Order 66. If the Jedi just tried to remove him from office by force because they have no legal way to do it, he'd call it treason and activate Order 66. As usual with Palpatine, the only way to not lose is to not play.
    "Don't think of it as dying," said Death,
    "Just think of it as leaving early to avoid the rush."

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    Well, no, you can't really arrest the head of the Galactic Republic when nothing he has done is actually illegal. Remember that Palpatine is a very careful and shrewd man and if he's good at anything it's manipulating the legal and political systems to his
    Yes, you in fact can. That is literally what the Jedi are discussing doing. Absent the Sith Lord bit, what is he going to do to stop them? Theyre literally removing him from power and taking over the government, they can do whatever they have the power to do, and for the Jedi thats quite a lot.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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