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  1. - Top - End - #991
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    To anyone on Tattooine now, we've got two cops (at best, maybe spies/special forces at worst) from a foreign power
    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    Also, I'd draw a distinction between a group of fugitives
    Why would they think the Jedi are Jedi/cops/fugitives? Hide thr lightsabers and don't try to mind trick and they're Joe Nobody's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Anyone feel like taking 30k cash to a money changer into foreign currency to settle this? For science? If they do anything other than immediately hand over the money without asking for any identity verification, signatures, or use any method that allows the transaction be traced, you must refuse to go through with it and walk out.
    Yes, banks and governments will likely act very different than underworld unofficial people in a criminal city. Hey, tell you what, go to a bar and ask someone to smuggle you into Australia, no questions asked. For science. By your argument, shouldn't be a problem, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Also:

    Qui Gon: Let's say we'd like to avoid any Hutt entanglements.

    Smuggler: I see.

    (Lets them go, picks up comm)

    Hello, Jabba, remember that money I owe you? Got two fugitives looking to avoid you, what are they worth to you?
    Sure, if you specifically engineer a plan to not work, it will never work. This is an example that literally happened in Star Wars. Ignoring that Jabba had a bounty on Han's head for half that amount and your example has the smuggler optimistically banking on a specific Hutt how may not be involved with them deciding they're worth whatever the dude owes, instead of taking the money and paying it back with more likely than not some left over (given that, in this example, the smuggler quoted a price big enough to work and was countered with more). Don't write any movies, is what I'm saying here.
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  2. - Top - End - #992
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    ...how is it not crucial? A teenager went to his home world, something he isn't meant to have done for many reasons not least of all that he was disobeying a direct order, and saw his own mother die. So that's no big deal? That doesn't warrant an investigation into what happened, even if just to find out what help the Jedi can offer?

    They felt his pain from half a galaxy away. That's insane. To do nothing, to not look into it, would be to suggest the Jedi do not care one bit about Anakin's mental health. If that's true it's no wonder Palpatine found it so easy to manipulate him if he really was the only person in the whole damn galaxy that cared about Anakin's feelings at any point.
    He clearly needs support and therapy. The notion that he needs investigation is what's in doubt. Like, there's no reason to believe anything happened but exactly what they believe happened as hamishspence shows. Anakin got a vision of his mother dying, went and she died. That is sufficient to explain the facts they have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Why would they think the Jedi are Jedi/cops/fugitives? Hide thr lightsabers and don't try to mind trick and they're Joe Nobody's.
    Because they've already revealed themselves to be Jedi by walking in and wandering around as Jedi and trying and failing to Mind Trick Watto. At that point, their cover is blown and news will be out...rapidly. I mean, also their clothing is apparently literally the Jedi uniform at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sure, if you specifically engineer a plan to not work, it will never work. This is an example that literally happened in Star Wars. Ignoring that Jabba had a bounty on Han's head for half that amount and your example has the smuggler optimistically banking on a specific Hutt how may not be involved with them deciding they're worth whatever the dude owes, instead of taking the money and paying it back with more likely than not some left over (given that, in this example, the smuggler quoted a price big enough to work and was countered with more).
    Except in the OT, they were on the run from the Empire, as was Han (sort of) and Jabba was...if not on the run, certainly engaged in smuggling to hide from the Empire. Turning them over to Jabba would make no sense. In this case, to any smuggler they go to, the only person it makes sense for them to be hiding from is Jabba, hence the potential value in turning them over to Jabba.
    Last edited by ecarden; 2024-06-17 at 06:53 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #993
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    Because they've already revealed themselves to be Jedi by walking in and wandering around as Jedi and trying and failing to Mind Trick Watto. At that point, their cover is blown and news will be out...
    So all smugglers in Mos Spa check with Watto before taking on customers? Either he didn't seem to tell anyone else, or nobody seemed to care. Either way, doesn't really matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    Except in the OT, they were on the run from the Empire, as was Han (sort of) and Jabba was...if not on the run, certainly engaged in smuggling to hide from the Empire. Turning them over to Jabba would make no sense. In this case, to any smuggler they go to, the only person it makes sense for them to be hiding from is Jabba, hence the potential value in turning them over to Jabba.
    I never suggested Han would turn them into Jabba? I'm saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. And also that the possibility of something happening in Star Wars is probably bolstered by the fact that it literally happened in Star Wars.
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  4. - Top - End - #994
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    He clearly needs support and therapy. The notion that he needs investigation is what's in doubt. Like, there's no reason to believe anything happened but exactly what they believe happened as hamishspence shows. Anakin got a vision of his mother dying, went and she died. That is sufficient to explain the facts they have.



    Because they've already revealed themselves to be Jedi by walking in and wandering around as Jedi and trying and failing to Mind Trick Watto. At that point, their cover is blown and news will be out...rapidly. I mean, also their clothing is apparently literally the Jedi uniform at this point.



    Except in the OT, they were on the run from the Empire, as was Han (sort of) and Jabba was...if not on the run, certainly engaged in smuggling to hide from the Empire. Turning them over to Jabba would make no sense. In this case, to any smuggler they go to, the only person it makes sense for them to be hiding from is Jabba, hence the potential value in turning them over to Jabba.

    Remember that we have Jedi who are able to sense emotions and thoughts in people. Presumably this is how Obi-wan, walking into a cantina in the town he described as a "wretched hive of scum and villainy", and meet up with Chewbacca. Presumably there were a lot of other people in that bar, many of whom had ships, whom Obi-wan passed over. Among them, the two who picked a fight with Luke.

    We don't need a smuggler with a heart of gold. We just need one that's willing to take the sum with a promise of a larger payment on Coruscant. And this time, we don't care even slightly about avoiding "Imperial entanglements". If they encountered a Republic patrol ship that would be just fine.

    They do have to avoid the Trade Federation and they do need to avoid revealing they are Jedi. I suspect Jabba wouldn't care about Padme Amidala one way or the other; at this point, the Trade Federation hasn't posted a bounty or anything like that, so she and her crew aren't of much value or interest. Jabba might, however, kill any Jedi he could lay his hands on.

    I would at least consider the option of A) selling the ship. Since Qui-gonn was willing to put it up as an entry fee, that means there are people in this port who are more than willing to buy a slightly damaged ship, no questions asked. If pirates ever call here, this might not be a terribly unusual occurrence, even for rich and expensive ships. B) use the proceeds to buy passage to Tatooine for Amidala and the Jedi, the remaining amount used to pay for room and board for those left behind. Once on Coruscant, dispatch a ship back to Tatooine to pick them up and settling any outstanding debts.

    Respectfully,

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  5. - Top - End - #995
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    So all smugglers in Mos Spa check with Watto before taking on customers? Either he didn't seem to tell anyone else, or nobody seemed to care. Either way, doesn't really matter.
    No, but if they reveal themselves, fail to make a deal, then leave without making the bet, I think Watto's on the phone to everyone he's ever met telling them about the two Jedi who just walked into his place and how they're wandering around. Jedi are incredibly rare and are the main force-projection tool of the Republic, two of them being on Tattooine, trying to keep quiet and buy equipment can have...more than one interpretation to a paranoid mind. In canon, he's got a bet he thinks he's going to win, but can't collect on if conflict breaks out. If that's not true, why not roll the dice on getting a reward for snitching?

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Remember that we have Jedi who are able to sense emotions and thoughts in people. Presumably this is how Obi-wan, walking into a cantina in the town he described as a "wretched hive of scum and villainy", and meet up with Chewbacca. Presumably there were a lot of other people in that bar, many of whom had ships, whom Obi-wan passed over. Among them, the two who picked a fight with Luke.

    We don't need a smuggler with a heart of gold. We just need one that's willing to take the sum with a promise of a larger payment on Coruscant. And this time, we don't care even slightly about avoiding "Imperial entanglements". If they encountered a Republic patrol ship that would be just fine.
    And that may have happened off screen for all we know, they went and looked for pilots they could trust and didn't find any. Just as a search for moneychangers and such may have after Watto reveals himself. Similarly, we don't have to believe they took him at his word that he's the only one with the part.

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    They do have to avoid the Trade Federation and they do need to avoid revealing they are Jedi. I suspect Jabba wouldn't care about Padme Amidala one way or the other; at this point, the Trade Federation hasn't posted a bounty or anything like that, so she and her crew aren't of much value or interest. Jabba might, however, kill any Jedi he could lay his hands on.
    So, I think actually the most likely thing is a giant mess up because if I'm Jabba and two Jedi show up on my home turf...I think they're here for me. There's not much else on Tattooine (theoretically, putting aside the tendency to make it somehow involved in everything else in the future and the past), so why are two Jedi here? To deal with me.

    I honestly think there's a pretty good chance that literally just going and talking to him and paying him the credits they had, would have a good chance of getting them the hell off Tattooine, because Jabba doesn't want a fight with Jedi, or the Republic at this point. But there's also a chance that someone in his employ panics, or he makes a mistake and it turns into a giant fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I would at least consider the option of A) selling the ship. Since Qui-gonn was willing to put it up as an entry fee, that means there are people in this port who are more than willing to buy a slightly damaged ship, no questions asked. If pirates ever call here, this might not be a terribly unusual occurrence, even for rich and expensive ships. B) use the proceeds to buy passage to Tatooine for Amidala and the Jedi, the remaining amount used to pay for room and board for those left behind. Once on Coruscant, dispatch a ship back to Tatooine to pick them up and settling any outstanding debts.
    This just puts the problem back on 'find someone to take you to Coruscant, whether for money or a ship' which I don't think is a solved issue, especially if you don't have the right contacts that pirates/smugglers would/do. I tend to agree that they probably could sell the ship in some way, but I'm less convinced they can hire someone to take them to Coruscant.

    I also wonder about speed and timing. I believe they end up only being on Tatooine a single night? I think they may find that all the investigation we'd like them to do eats into their schedule (I also wonder about comparative speeds of whatever smuggler they can find, versus royal yacht. Millenium Falcon aside, I would expect the royal yacht to be a lot faster--though travel times in Star Wars have become basically irrelevant, so this may not actually matter).
    Last edited by ecarden; 2024-06-17 at 11:55 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #996
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    I find it amusing that in a thread that's supposed to be about the new Star Wars show, all the posts on the current page are people arguing about the prequels. Kind of supports my personal theory that much as the Disney era's been terrible for Star Wars as a whole, it's the best thing that could possibly have happened to the prequel trilogy. There's nothing like a bunch of awful sequels to make people look more fondly on earlier entries in a franchise.

    It actually matches up with my personal experience of when I did my big Star Wars watchthrough – for all the bad parts in the prequels, I did generally like them. You can tell they're made by someone who genuinely cares about the setting. And because there's so much attention paid to the lore and world-building, they're a lot more interesting to talk about than the stuff from the Disney era.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    I find it amusing that in a thread that's supposed to be about the new Star Wars show, all the posts on the current page are people arguing about the prequels. Kind of supports my personal theory that much as the Disney era's been terrible for Star Wars as a whole, it's the best thing that could possibly have happened to the prequel trilogy. There's nothing like a bunch of awful sequels to make people look more fondly on earlier entries in a franchise.

    It actually matches up with my personal experience of when I did my big Star Wars watchthrough – for all the bad parts in the prequels, I did generally like them. You can tell they're made by someone who genuinely cares about the setting. And because there's so much attention paid to the lore and world-building, they're a lot more interesting to talk about than the stuff from the Disney era.
    The prequels were never bad, they were just badly made. The actual premise is fantastic, but maybe it was also ahead of its time? I mean, when the prequels came out people blasted the movies for having trade negotiations and loads of scenes about politics, but now? Now it's all anyone wants to see because lightsabers apparently aren't cool any more.

    The idea of a galaxy-spanning government infected with corruption and greed being manipulated by Palpatine into a war where he controls both sides of the conflict and uses an army of clones on one side and an army of robots on the other so that he avoids the usual pratfall where the bad guy ends up destroying the very thing he's trying to take over, all while tricking a Jedi Order that has grown so comfortable in its own success that it never sees him coming into becoming the leaders of an army of clones explicitly designed to one day turn on them and wipe them out.

    I mean, it's a pretty awesome story. It just wasn't told very well.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Anyone feel like taking 30k cash to a money changer into foreign currency to settle this? For science? If they do anything other than immediately hand over the money without asking for any identity verification, signatures, or use any method that allows the transaction be traced, you must refuse to go through with it and walk out.
    If you have the $30k, I will be happy to take it to a money changer for you.

    I do know that you have to declare to customs if you have more than $10,000 on you when crossing a border. I am not sure what happens if you exceed that. I also know, from experience, how hard it is to send money to someone overseas.

    Based on that experience, I imagine if you try to exchange that much money, it gets reported to the government and you have to verify your identity. But that's a guess on my part.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    If you have the $30k, I will be happy to take it to a money changer for you.

    I do know that you have to declare to customs if you have more than $10,000 on you when crossing a border. I am not sure what happens if you exceed that. I also know, from experience, how hard it is to send money to someone overseas.

    Based on that experience, I imagine if you try to exchange that much money, it gets reported to the government and you have to verify your identity. But that's a guess on my part.
    At least in the US, whoever does the exchanging would have to fill out some paperwork for a transaction that size. And you would need lots of identification. Depending on how you're going about it, you might see some pretty substantial fees involved for the service too, but thats just usual service fee stuff, not like a government fine or anything.

    To bring it back around to Star Wars, its an interesting bit of worldbuilding that by the time of the Empire, credits seem to be accepted. One wonders if Darth Vader specifically made sure to bring Imperial law to Tatooine.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    If you have the $30k, I will be happy to take it to a money changer for you.

    I do know that you have to declare to customs if you have more than $10,000 on you when crossing a border. I am not sure what happens if you exceed that. I also know, from experience, how hard it is to send money to someone overseas.

    Based on that experience, I imagine if you try to exchange that much money, it gets reported to the government and you have to verify your identity. But that's a guess on my part.
    Bear in mind this is the Star Wars universe which is, again, based on the 19th century, not the 21st. The kind of tight controls and so forth you describe would absolutely exist on Coruscant or other worlds of the Core worlds, but not on a frontier planet on the outer rim. The closest thing we have to "government" on Tatooine is Jabba, and for all we know he doesn't control the entire planet , just Mos Eisley and his palace.

    It was quite possible, back in the 19th century, to cross a colonial border with a bag full of pound notes and no one would even bat an eye on it. Jules Verne's 80 days was , in fact, written on this premise. Phileas Fogg sets off around the world with a trunk full of bank notes to pay his way. No one , at the time, thought this was at all unbelievable. 80 days is SF for that period only because no one had ever tried it; it didn't require technological innovations such as a moonshot cannon or a nuclear power source, as some of his other novels require.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay
    The prequels were never bad, they were just badly made.
    I was an adult when the prequels came out, and here were the problems I remember being had with them:
    -- Too much reliance on CGI, not enough on practical effects. It made the world feel plastic, unreal. Also, the actors seem to have trouble interacting with the environment, since they were at some points talking to a tennis ball on a green screen.
    -- Jar-Jar Binks. 'Nuff said!
    -- Episode 1 was a near carbon-copy of Episode 4, but done worse. There was no charming Harrison Ford character, no moments like Leia grousing about getting the walking carpet out of her way. What we had instead was an 11 year old protaganist who, through no fault of his own, was simply not up to carrying a major motion picture.
    -- The dialog written for him was excessively corrny. We don't have Mark Hamill or Harrison Ford telling George lines weren't doable and adlibbing better ones; instead we had stuff like "leapin' lizards!" or "Wooohooo! Now this is Pod racing!" in Anakin's mouth.
    -- the would-be relationship between Anakin in the first film which as awwwkward, to say the least.
    -- the chemistry between Hayden and Portman in Episode 2, which was nonexistent.
    -- The political scenes just --- didn't work. They didn't go into enough detail to satisfy adult viewers, and they bored younger viewers. These kind of scenes belong to a different kind of movie than the 1930s action-adventure space opera Star Wars riffs off of, and it just wasn't able to make the leap.

    Those of us watching at the time felt a big part of the issue is that the creative team which brought us the OT wasn't there any more. Back when Star Wars first came out, Lucas was young, relatively unknown, and thus was more amenable to suggestion. By the time of the prequels, Lucas had Living Legend status as a director, which means pretty much no one would disagree with any decision he made, and the lack of constructive criticism within the team shows. Star Wars may or may not have been "saved in edit", but the OT was a work of many hands, not just Lucas, and there weren't enough of those hands in the PT, nor enough to push back against bad ideas which never would have made it to screen back when Lucas was a young and unknown directory.

    The Prequels were, for summer entertainment, okay. Mediocre. A great disappointment to those who grew up on the OT, but recognizably Star Wars nonetheless. The Sequel trilogy ... eh, the less said the better. Suffice to say Lucas looks like a genius in the prequels compared to the ST.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Originally Posted by Saph
    There's nothing like a bunch of awful sequels to make people look more fondly on earlier entries in a franchise.
    …Maybe. I still find Phantom Menace to be absolutely unwatchable, and Attack of the Clones mostly goofy and terrible. Revenge of the Sith is the only one I can watch all the way through, but even that one’s not great.

    At the time, I enjoyed watching each of them in the theater when they came out, but for me they haven’t held up well. I think Infernally Clay is right that the fundamental concept of the prequels is sound—but the execution was extremely poor compared with what it could’ve been.

    When the Acolyte was first announced, I had the impression that it would be a nuanced exploration of the murky ethics and byzantine politics of the Republic at its zenith. If that involved a mostly female cast, as they seemed to suggest, then fine; I just wanted the cat-and-mouse of Jedi vs. hidden Sith within the context of intricate political maneuverings.

    That impression was probably 99% wishful thinking on my part. If the Acolyte had actually given us that, at Tony Gilroy levels of quality, I’d be singing its praises from here to Fornax.

    Originally Posted by Infernally Clay
    Now it's all anyone wants to see because lightsabers apparently aren't cool any more.
    Lightsabers remain as awesome as ever. But without a compelling story for them to exist in, and without interesting characters to wield them, they can’t by themselves make up for the mediocre-to-awful shows that keep trotting them out.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Those of us watching at the time felt a big part of the issue is that the creative team which brought us the OT wasn't there any more. Back when Star Wars first came out, Lucas was young, relatively unknown, and thus was more amenable to suggestion. By the time of the prequels, Lucas had Living Legend status as a director, which means pretty much no one would disagree with any decision he made, and the lack of constructive criticism within the team shows. Star Wars may or may not have been "saved in edit", but the OT was a work of many hands, not just Lucas, and there weren't enough of those hands in the PT, nor enough to push back against bad ideas which never would have made it to screen back when Lucas was a young and unknown directory.
    I've seen this before, but no one seems to actually have any reason to think this is actually true. Who was arguing with him first time around, who wasn't arguing with him second time around, no one knows. It's just something the internet decided for no reason.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    I've seen this before, but no one seems to actually have any reason to think this is actually true. Who was arguing with him first time around, who wasn't arguing with him second time around, no one knows. It's just something the internet decided for no reason.
    Without having the exact fingerprints, it's not unknown for a creative to become successful, then turn out some absolutely awful works in later life because, now that they are perceived as "geniuses" by the industry, no one will tell them "no". The class example to my mind is Robert A. Heinlein, who had some good boys-adventure fiction in the 50s and eventually started churning out stuff like Job: A Comedy of Justice and similar novels in his later life which I find absolutely unreadable.

    Here are some reasons why good directors can make terrible movies

    They Work Past Their Prime
    They Get Too Comfortable and Take Fewer Risks
    They Strive to Re-Create Their Past
    They Attempt Terrible Passion Projects
    Audiences Change
    I would argue that the prequels absolutely fit the top four.

    When a doctor has a patient stumble into their room with a fever, sneezing, coughing, they don't need the receipts of who gave what to him to recognize a contagious disease. I think it's the same with this: Even if we haven't got the receipts of exactly who "saved Star Wars in edit", the symptoms of a once-good director stumbling on delivery in ways that many, many other directors have stumbled are absolutely there.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    No, but if they reveal themselves, fail to make a deal, then leave without making the bet, I think Watto's on the phone to everyone he's ever met telling them about the two Jedi who just walked into his place and how they're wandering around.
    A.) Why would they reveal themselves? Nothing about "we will pay you to get us to Coruscant, and i mean now" requires them to say "and also we are Jedi".
    2.) Watto already either knew or heavily suspected they were Jedi from Qui-Gon trying to mind trick him, and nothing came of it.
    III.) Even assuming that for some reason, they are forced to admit they are Jedi, and word somehow gets around, being a Jedi at this time is not illegal, the Hutts don't particularly care one way or the other about them, and their mission was not only not publicized, but it was so secretive (not the word I'd prefer, but nothing else works that well. Unpublished? Anti-press-conferenced?) that the very people they were sent to negotiate with didn't even know they were getting Jedi. The only reason anyone would care is because they're criminals and Jedi are quasi law enforcement, which itself would very likely have its bumps smoothed by a giant pile of credits for a legal and legit simple Uber trip. And, to boot, it's not like there's only two Jedi in the universe. And even if somehow, through some tortuous circumstance, people found out that Jinn and Kenobi had come from Naboo, why would they even care? The Trade Federation is very explicitly keeping their invasion and occupation a secret. That's the entire reason Amidala has to get to Coruscant to start with! No knowledge of them being wanted is getting out. As far as the Qui-Gon is concerned, nobody on the planet has any reason to know or care who they are or what they are doing. Sure, he's trying to keep a low profile, but he's not even really trying that hard, seeing as he isn't terribly concerned about Watto calling him out on his mind trick not working and he is so careless as to get made by a nine-year-old who has the same observational skills as everyone else they passed by in Mos Espa.

    In short, the concerns about failure are overblown and the risk is significantly less than the gamble. But hey, let's look at it a different way. Suppose that the film had been made where they battered their ship away for a much cheaper but fully functional ship, or hired a smuggler to fly them out. Would you react with "that was incredibly dangerous and risky, it would have been much better if he offered to have Anakin race using the ship he needs repaired as the entrance fee, then changes it so he doesn't pay the entrance fee and gets the parts he needs on a win but gives up the ship entirely if they lose"? Would you be arguing that would have been a better alternative?

    Because we're talking about a movie. However they get off planet, it's going to be written to work. So why would you choose a plan that has more moving parts and is needlessly more convoluted and complex when you could choose a more reasonable, more straightforward method? Because it's not as if the podrace is an integral scene in the film. You could say it sets up for him being able to fly the ship at the end, but he's already established as being able to podrace before that (that's the entire basis for the bet to start with!), which is exactly as much setup as Luke got with his piloting skills before he flew against the Death Star. Nothing of particular note happens in the scene that affects any of the character arcs in any way. Nothing is progressed. In fact, the only thing that changes in the narrative is that they now have Anakin with him, which could easily have been accomplished by simply trading the ship to Watto for a lesser ship plus Anakin, just as a quick and dirty example (not meant as an exhaustive set of ways to get Anakin).

    Fact is, the podrace scene exists to have an action beat, which isn't inherently bad, but the setup for it to take place with the bet is ridiculous and the podrace itself doesn't even really have stakes, since we know Anakin will win and nobody else is in danger. If they replaced that with, say, a chase scene with Maul getting back to the ship, that would at least have stakes involved, since we know Anakin and Kenobi will make it but we have no idea about Qui-Gon, the queen, Jar Jar, or her handmaiden. That would actually introduce tension into the race scene, which the podrace lacks. Again, single example off the top of my head not intended as an exhaustive and comprehensive list of alternate possibilities.

    It's a bad plot point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    It speaks to the gravity of what happened, I think. The Jedi didn't just mess up, they appear to have killed or caused the deaths of a large group of seemingly innocent women and then covered it up for sixteen years.

    I don't think that makes them as bad as the Sith, mind. They thought they were doing the right thing and they clearly feel immense guilt about it, even if they're each dealing with it in their own way.

    Then again, we can't forget that this is Star Wars. Anakin massacred an entire village of men, women and children in an act of rage and pain so great they could feel it half a galaxy away and Padmé not only didn't tell anyone she still married the guy and apparently none of the Jedi looked into what made Anakin feel such terrible pain. I guess they kinda just forgot?
    It sure does speak to the gravity of what happened. And regardless of what happens in the future the Jedi of The Acolyte are already very comfortable trying to separate children from their parents against their parents will.

    Again, thats not what I'm looking for in my Star Wars.

    Re: Anakin. That was supposed to be the greatest tragedy of a civilisation and a great, unique failure of the Jedi in the midst of war and confusion.

    For the Acolyte its a tuesday. The Jedi are just rotten fascists who think they own everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    I've seen this before, but no one seems to actually have any reason to think this is actually true. Who was arguing with him first time around, who wasn't arguing with him second time around, no one knows. It's just something the internet decided for no reason.
    I think it is probably true that Lucas got more power and prestige after becoming the creator of Star Wars, I can't imagine how he wouldn't. There was a trust that he could bring it home, and frankly in the ways that really mattered he did. The movies sold well and pioneered modern digital filmmaking, they're just as revolutionary as the Original Trilogy was in their day.

    I do think the Original Trilogy had a lot more revision from first draft to the screen. New Hope in particular always sounded like Lucas' vision was very prequel-esque and it was a slow evolution to the form it eventually took.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Fact is, the podrace scene exists to have an action beat, which isn't inherently bad, but the setup for it to take place with the bet is ridiculous and the podrace itself doesn't even really have stakes, since we know Anakin will win and nobody else is in danger. If they replaced that with, say, a chase scene with Maul getting back to the ship, that would at least have stakes involved, since we know Anakin and Kenobi will make it but we have no idea about Qui-Gon, the queen, Jar Jar, or her handmaiden. That would actually introduce tension into the race scene, which the podrace lacks. Again, single example off the top of my head not intended as an exhaustive and comprehensive list of alternate possibilities.
    The Podrace scene is like, the best scene in the movie, so we don't want to cut it, but it's definitely a scene that'd work better as like, an introduction. Like maybe that's where you should start the movie, have Anakin win (or lose) a big race and then an incident does some inciting and now he's on a space adventure.

    The movie has to bend itself into knots for the Podrace scene to be the midpoint, and it just does not belong there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    A.) Why would they reveal themselves? Nothing about "we will pay you to get us to Coruscant, and i mean now" requires them to say "and also we are Jedi".
    2.) Watto already either knew or heavily suspected they were Jedi from Qui-Gon trying to mind trick him, and nothing came of it.
    Yes, that is exactly my point. They go in, reveal themselves and then, in this scenario just leave. At that point, yes, he will tell everyone he knows about the Jedi, or people pretending to be Jedi who tried to buy a part from him. Because unless I'm confused, the point of departure for you isn't before they try to buy the part. They don't know they've got a problem until they try and fail to buy the part. So they've already made the mistake and revealed themself (I mean, this is also moot because at that point Qui-Gon's goals are in flux as he fairly transparently believes the Force brought him here for Anakin and that's become a major priority).

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    III.) Even assuming that for some reason, they are forced to admit they are Jedi, and word somehow gets around, being a Jedi at this time is not illegal, the Hutts don't particularly care one way or the other about them, and their mission was not only not publicized, but it was so secretive (not the word I'd prefer, but nothing else works that well. Unpublished? Anti-press-conferenced?) that the very people they were sent to negotiate with didn't even know they were getting Jedi. The only reason anyone would care is because they're criminals and Jedi are quasi law enforcement, which itself would very likely have its bumps smoothed by a giant pile of credits for a legal and legit simple Uber trip. And, to boot, it's not like there's only two Jedi in the universe. And even if somehow, through some tortuous circumstance, people found out that Jinn and Kenobi had come from Naboo, why would they even care? The Trade Federation is very explicitly keeping their invasion and occupation a secret. That's the entire reason Amidala has to get to Coruscant to start with! No knowledge of them being wanted is getting out. As far as the Qui-Gon is concerned, nobody on the planet has any reason to know or care who they are or what they are doing. Sure, he's trying to keep a low profile, but he's not even really trying that hard, seeing as he isn't terribly concerned about Watto calling him out on his mind trick not working and he is so careless as to get made by a nine-year-old who has the same observational skills as everyone else they passed by in Mos Espa.
    I think I'm not being clear, it's not that Jabba gives a **** about Naboo, or the Trade Federation. It's that he gives a **** about Republic law enforcement being in his backyard for no particularly clear reason. Which...if you're a criminal (or even just not part of the Republic) is a bit suspicious. He doesn't care about them as Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. He cares about them expressly as what they have already basically claimed to be at the point when they discover they can't just buy what they need and move on, Jedi.

    Like, if a Vietnamese Special Forces team is trying to buy the parts to repair their boat in Japan...the Japanese government is going to have some questions they'd like answered before they either let you buy them, or let you charter another boat back to Vietnam. And the Hutts aren't as nice as the Japanese government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobb View Post
    It sure does speak to the gravity of what happened. And regardless of what happens in the future the Jedi of The Acolyte are already very comfortable trying to separate children from their parents against their parents will.

    Again, thats not what I'm looking for in my Star Wars.

    Re: Anakin. That was supposed to be the greatest tragedy of a civilisation and a great, unique failure of the Jedi in the midst of war and confusion.

    For the Acolyte its a tuesday. The Jedi are just rotten fascists who think they own everyone.
    I'm just going to repeat, this is episode 3/8 of a mystery, we don't know where they're going, but I very much doubt that's where they're going.
    Last edited by ecarden; 2024-06-18 at 03:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    I'm just going to repeat, this is episode 3/8 of a mystery, we don't know where they're going, but I very much doubt that's where they're going.
    The part about Jedi barging into the furthest corners of the universe to take force sensitive children from their parents is where they've already gone. "It's Republic law!" Granted, we don't know if the Jedi actually murdered anyone yet. But 100% they're attempting to coerce people into giving up their loved ones.




    Heck, aren't these kids too old to begin the training? Or are we witnessing the reason Jedi don't take children(even voluntarily)?
    Last edited by Bobb; 2024-06-18 at 04:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    Yes, that is exactly my point. They go in, reveal themselves and then, in this scenario just leave.
    I'm sorry, I'm going to really need you to clarify your point, because I asked why they would do reveal themselves to whatever smuggler they try to hire and, by the above response, the answer seems to be "because they would". If, as you insist, it would be to their disadvantage to to that, then there needs to be a reason for them to do that. You have supplied none. Our have only insisted they would, and end it there.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    At that point, yes, he will tell everyone he knows about the Jedi, or people pretending to be Jedi who tried to buy a part from him.
    Except he already experienced Qui-Gon trying to use Force powers on him twice and didn't tell anyone. Imean, at this point, it just seems like you're deciding characters would so things we already know they wouldn't do.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    Because unless I'm confused, the point of departure for you isn't before they try to buy the part. They don't know they've got a problem until they try and fail to buy the part. So they've already made the mistake and revealed themself
    Case in point, you agree that they already revealed themselves, and received absolutely no consequences for it. Why, then, are you claiming it will suddenly be a problem if they reveal themselves to a Space Uber?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    I think I'm not being clear, it's not that Jabba gives a **** about Naboo, or the Trade Federation. It's that he gives a **** about Republic law enforcement being in his backyard for no particularly clear reason.
    Sure, he might be concerned about that, but they're also notably not actually doing anything towards him, which a cursory investigation would reveal. Hell, if anything, it would be a chance for him to "magnanimously" gift them a ride and pocket a favor from them (or, more likely, the Republic). It's either irrelevant because he never finds out (which we already know will be the case, because that's what already happened), it will be irrelevant because he finds out but eventually decides it's not worth interfering with, or it's in the protagonists favor because he can come off ahead in that deal. The Hutts want the Republic and Jedi to not get more involved with their territory, openly antagonizing them at any available instance doesn't further that goal. Now, I'll readily admit that him helping them is the least likely of those three options, but actively hurting them is even morr unlikely because he stands to gain absolutely nothing from that and stands to lose quite a bit.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2024-06-18 at 04:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    The prequels were never bad, they were just badly made. The actual premise is fantastic, but maybe it was also ahead of its time? I mean, when the prequels came out people blasted the movies for having trade negotiations and loads of scenes about politics, but now? Now it's all anyone wants to see because lightsabers apparently aren't cool any more.

    The idea of a galaxy-spanning government infected with corruption and greed being manipulated by Palpatine into a war where he controls both sides of the conflict and uses an army of clones on one side and an army of robots on the other so that he avoids the usual pratfall where the bad guy ends up destroying the very thing he's trying to take over, all while tricking a Jedi Order that has grown so comfortable in its own success that it never sees him coming into becoming the leaders of an army of clones explicitly designed to one day turn on them and wipe them out.

    I mean, it's a pretty awesome story. It just wasn't told very well.
    There is absolutely something generational to them as well, I was a kid when the first one came out and I wasn't exactly primed to approach them with critical thinking or an urge to nitpick dialogue and bad editing. As a result I've noticed me and a lot of others in my generation just tend to have a lot more nostalgia for them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobb View Post
    The part about Jedi barging into the furthest corners of the universe to take force sensitive children from their parents is where they've already gone. "It's Republic law!" Granted, we don't know if the Jedi actually murdered anyone yet. But 100% they're attempting to coerce people into giving up their loved ones.
    I mean, this is somewhere Star Wars has already been for years. The Jedi take children from their loved ones and they do it young, explicitly because it makes indoctrination easier if their recruits do not have attachments prior to joining the order. That's all prequels canon.

    It's one of those little details that mean turning the Jedi into villains only really takes very lightly reframing what's already in the text.

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    I thought it was infancy. And I never liked it and could headcannon it away.

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    Imean, the only times we ever saw the Jedi do it before, they very clearly asked for consent. The internet in general loves to frame t as baby-theft.

    That said, yeah, I also always disliked it. Along with most of what the prequels introduced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    I mean, this is somewhere Star Wars has already been for years. The Jedi take children from their loved ones and they do it young, explicitly because it makes indoctrination easier if their recruits do not have attachments prior to joining the order. That's all prequels canon.

    It's one of those little details that mean turning the Jedi into villains only really takes very lightly reframing what's already in the text.
    It's not because it'd easier to indoctrinate them, it's because they're less likely to, for example, fly into a genocidal rage and murder a bunch of people when their loved ones are in danger if they don't have that kind of deep emotional investment in specific individuals to begin with.

    The jedi live the Peter Parker life, and their solution is to say "sorry MJ."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    The Podrace scene is like, the best scene in the movie, so we don't want to cut it, but it's definitely a scene that'd work better as like, an introduction. Like maybe that's where you should start the movie, have Anakin win (or lose) a big race and then an incident does some inciting and now he's on a space adventure.

    The movie has to bend itself into knots for the Podrace scene to be the midpoint, and it just does not belong there.
    Podrace, lightsaber fight were definitely the two most exciting scenes when it came out, so yeah, I think you definitely want to retain it. It's a fun concept. Opening with a race is a decent option. Lots of decent movies have an action bit up front to keep the exposition at the start from being too tedious. Heck, this movie does as well, it's just that the droids are not particularly threatening, and the action scene is fairly one sided.

    Introducing the characters separately and then having them run into each other might have been a lot better. Also, maybe slightly less age gap between Anakin and Padme while we're at it. If romance *must* be in the prequel trilogy....then why give it such an awkward start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Imean, the only times we ever saw the Jedi do it before, they very clearly asked for consent. The internet in general loves to frame t as baby-theft.

    That said, yeah, I also always disliked it. Along with most of what the prequels introduced.
    Ehhhh, the idea that a kid that young can meaningfully consent to never see his family again, or that a family should be pressured into giving up their child forever is dubious at best. It's a weird concept to wrap around the good guys. There's no particular reason why you can't have 'em be a touch older and have them more cleanly fit the squire/knight dynamic you're borrowing from anyways.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2024-06-18 at 05:11 PM.

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    Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard
    I've seen this before, but no one seems to actually have any reason to think this is actually true.
    There are certainly documented cases of people not correcting Lucas or objecting to misunderstandings that he had, so it’s not an unreasonable assumption.

    Originally Posted by pendell
    Also, the actors seem to have trouble interacting with the environment, since they were at some points talking to a tennis ball on a green screen.
    In addition to this, Lucas was also combining different takes from different actors in the same final shot, which is a major reason why it felt so off. The actors weren’t playing off each other directly in any given scene; they were playing off unseen takes from each other. Viewers could sense the discrepancy without knowing what had caused it, which contributed to those scenes looking and feeling weirdly unreal.

    Originally Posted by pendell
    …the chemistry between Hayden and Portman in Episode 2, which was nonexistent.
    I would attribute 95% of this to Portman, who I think has been badly overrated in terms of acting skill.

    Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
    Also, maybe slightly less age gap between Anakin and Padme while we're at it. If romance *must* be in the prequel trilogy....then why give it such an awkward start?
    The original script called for them both to be 14-ish, but once Jake Lloyd auditioned, Lucas felt he should be the one to play Anakin, and everything was bent around that. Not a great decision for a lot of reasons.

    Originally Posted by pendell
    ...the 15% fan review on rotten tomatoes....
    Going into tonight’s episode, the RT critic score stands at 84% and the audience score has edged down to 14%.

    Word is that tonight’s episode is better than last week’s (it could hardly be otherwise) so I’m expecting the critic score to rise significantly, and maybe a slight uptick for the audience score. Still betting the latter will be down to around 8% by the time the series is done.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    It's not because it'd easier to indoctrinate them, it's because they're less likely to, for example, fly into a genocidal rage and murder a bunch of people when their loved ones are in danger if they don't have that kind of deep emotional investment in specific individuals to begin with.

    The jedi live the Peter Parker life, and their solution is to say "sorry MJ."
    Now I'm giggling at the Council finding out about the Sand People and just going "now see, this is exactly what we didn't want to happen!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Ehhhh, the idea that a kid that young can meaningfully consent
    A.) parents also consent. Moreso during a child's infancy, I'd wager.
    2.) if you really want want to argue the ethics of informed consent a series about space wizards with laser swords probably isn't going to be the best medium for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Ehhhh, the idea that a kid that young can meaningfully consent to never see his family again, or that a family should be pressured into giving up their child forever is dubious at best. It's a weird concept to wrap around the good guys. There's no particular reason why you can't have 'em be a touch older and have them more cleanly fit the squire/knight dynamic you're borrowing from anyways.
    It's not like Obi-Wan considered Luke too old to train and I'd have to rewatch the episodes again but did anyone so far complain Osha was too old? The Jedi tested both her and Mae and obviously intended to take them both back to Coruscant, so I can't help but wonder if the whole "Anakin is too old" thing was a more recent requirement. If it is then that suggests the Jedi became more strict about who they would allow to train as Jedi.

    Either way, yeah, the Jedi do pressure you into letting them take your children. Most parents wouldn't refuse anyway because becoming a Jedi is the greatest honour a person could ever achieve. They're giving up their children so they can have a better life than they'd otherwise have. Yet the flip side is also true as well. If your child has superpowers and it's illegal for anyone else to teach them how to use them, you would be putting your child's life in great danger and if anything goes wrong it's on you. They might also resent you when they're older if they had a chance to become a Jedi and you didn't allow them to.

    Doesn't really seem like there's much room to refuse the Jedi no matter how you slice it. The permission is merely the illusion of choice, because you don't really have any.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    It's not because it'd easier to indoctrinate them, it's because they're less likely to, for example, fly into a genocidal rage and murder a bunch of people when their loved ones are in danger if they don't have that kind of deep emotional investment in specific individuals to begin with
    Indoctrinate is perhaps loaded language, but it's literally what happens. The Jedi seem to struggle with getting older recruits to let go of their attachments and internalize the Jedi doctrine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Introducing the characters separately and then having them run into each other might have been a lot better. Also, maybe slightly less age gap between Anakin and Padme while we're at it. If romance *must* be in the prequel trilogy....then why give it such an awkward start
    Anakin should have been older. Keep the same actor through all three trilogies, same as Portman, make the "too old" register more clearly. I think Lucas really wanted the visual of Anakin as a very young child having to leave his mother behind, but it was the wrong choice for the rest of the movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    parents also consent. Moreso during a child's infancy, I'd wager.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    or that a family should be pressured into giving up their child forever
    Literally the second half of that sentence.

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    Default Re: Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Indoctrinate is perhaps loaded language, but it's literally what happens. The Jedi seem to struggle with getting older recruits to let go of their attachments and internalize the Jedi doctrine.
    From the plentiful sample size available?
    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Literally the second half of that sentence.
    "Pressured" is also a loaded term. Lot of loaded terms being tossed out against Jedi recruitment, i have to say.
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