Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

[Mordar]

This seems a better explanation to me, since my thought of "as he aged maybe Palpatine's force lightning lost its 'oomph' and didn't have the same energy" ... but then I recalled how strong 800 year old Yoda was in the force.

But maybe this is a benefit of Light Side - you grow with time, experience and serenity. Dark Side maybe looses oomph as the user becomes older and more complacent. And frankly, Sidious has probably long since lost passion because his only goal was achieved.

- M

[Grim Portent]

But maybe this is a benefit of Light Side - you grow with time, experience and serenity. Dark Side maybe looses oomph as the user becomes older and more complacent. And frankly, Sidious has probably long since lost passion because his only goal was achieved.

- M

His primary passion is cruelty, so I don't think Palpatine ever really gets weaker. I think he marinates in his own sadism and only grows more powerful over time as he expands his collection of lost Sith knowledge, Jedi relics and bits and bobs from the other Force creeds.

But Force Lightning isn't always the same, much like Force Telekinesis can be used to levitate a feather or crush a windpipe, same basic principle, different levels of force applied. Sometimes Force Lightning is a weapon, a sword to the heart, other times it's a tool of pain, a knife gliding through skin and setting nerves aflame.

[pendell]

Given that Palpatine was monologuing when he unleashed the Force Lightning, I think it's a fair conclusion that when he started zapping Luke he was using a low-power version of Force Lightning. We saw what Force Lightning can do to a man's face, but Luke still has his fresh looks; it looks like the initial blasts are intended to immobilize and to torture but not kill, not yet; first Palpatine has to get through his own Villain. It's only after he says "And now, young Skywalker, you will die" that he powers up to killing strength which WOULD have resulted in an agonizing death for Luke, except that Vader stepped in and sacrificed himself, taking the lightning meant for Luke. Whether from destroying his life support or simply from damage, these wounds were fatal to Vader, although it still took him several minutes to actually die.

It kind of suggests that Force Lightning really isn't a particular useful tool for quickly killing people; which seems odd, as the Electric Chair used to be used for executions primarily because it could kill nearly-instantaneously. For some reason the Sith never use it this way; we've never seen anyone actually killed with Force Lightning. Even Mace Windu didn't die on the spot; he had to be thrown out a window. Is this a weakness of Force Lightning vis-a-vis real electricity? Or does it tell us something about the Sith themselves?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mordar]

His primary passion is cruelty, so I don't think Palpatine ever really gets weaker. I think he marinates in his own sadism and only grows more powerful over time as he expands his collection of lost Sith knowledge, Jedi relics and bits and bobs from the other Force creeds.

But Force Lightning isn't always the same, much like Force Telekinesis can be used to levitate a feather or crush a windpipe, same basic principle, different levels of force applied. Sometimes Force Lightning is a weapon, a sword to the heart, other times it's a tool of pain, a knife gliding through skin and setting nerves aflame.

I certainly agree that the lightning can be controlled over a range of power...

But I think (from movies only, no real book background) that his passion is thirst for power. Cruelty never appears to be his motivation to me, just an acceptable element of methodology. And since he has acquired his temporal power his drive is diminished.

- M

[Keltest]

I think a simpler explanation is that force lightning is a tool of torture, not a weapon. It can kill, eventually, but if you're using it that way, it's because you want to torture someone until they die, not because you're trying to kill them outright. That's what choking someone is for, or hurling them off a cliff, or out a window, or just breaking their neck.

[Mechalich]

But I think (from movies only, no real book background) that his passion is thirst for power. Cruelty never appears to be his motivation to me, just an acceptable element of methodology. And since he has acquired his temporal power his drive is diminished.

His drive isn't diminished, exactly, rather it has been redirected. Once he acquired control over the galaxy, his goals shifted from temporal power to a more spiritual need and he became obsessed with the pursuit of immortality. This is one of a very few things TRoS approaches correctly, and it's a major plot point in Rebels as well.

One of the reasons Palpatine wants Luke so bad, when he really doesn't need random minions, if that his bloodline, being traceable to Darth Plagueis' experiments, might hold the secret of immortality, with Vader's tissues too damaged to do the same.

[Errorname]

I think a simpler explanation is that force lightning is a tool of torture, not a weapon. It can kill, eventually, but if you're using it that way, it's because you want to torture someone until they die, not because you're trying to kill them outright. That's what choking someone is for, or hurling them off a cliff, or out a window, or just breaking their neck.

At the very least, Palpatine is using it to torture. Maybe a different force user would just zap you once for the instant kill, but that's not what Palpatine wants to do.

[Dargaron]

So, going back to the Acolyte after many, many pages of prequel arguments.

I wonder if Disney might try to be sneaky and have the underlying villain not actually be a sith or even an explicit dark-side user, but instead a member of another unaligned religion like the Nihil.

I'm thinking of the Cosmic Balance from the very forgettable The Truce at Bakura novel: They would see any force-user, no matter how benign, as upsetting the balance and therefore "stealing" fortune from the rest of the galaxy, so inciting a conflict between light and dark siders would be a win-win from their perspective.

[Trafalgar]

At the very least, Palpatine is using it to torture. Maybe a different force user would just zap you once for the instant kill, but that's not what Palpatine wants to do.

I always felt like RotJ force lightening was about Palpatine torturing Luke, not just killing him. A really strong force user could just snap someone's neck or stop their heart. However, if that were true, lightsabers would be a superfluous above a certain power level.

But in modern star wars, you can't have a Sith or a Jedi without a light saber.

[Mechalich]

I always felt like RotJ force lightening was about Palpatine torturing Luke, not just killing him. A really strong force user could just snap someone's neck or stop their heart. However, if that were true, lightsabers would be a superfluous above a certain power level.

Force users, in combat against other Force users, innately defend against other Force abilities, forcing them to defer to the use of physical weapons instead. The Yoda vs. Dooku duel at the end of AotC makes this very clear.

At the same time, if there is a sufficiently large difference in power between two opponents, then lightsabers are in fact superfluous, since the stronger Force user can simply crush their opponent using their abilities directly. SWTOR contains numerous examples of this, with beings like the Dread Masters just killing people with their brains and Valkorion mind controlling even Jedi Masters at a whim.

During the confrontation between Luke and the Palpatine in RotJ the difference is indeed high enough that Palpatine can freely blast Luke with his powers (and, hypothetically, could have simply shunted Luke's lightsaber aside if Vader hadn't blocked it). By contrast, during the duel between Palpatine and Mace Windu in RotS, the difference is much less and Mace successfully blocks Palpatine's lightning.

[Palanan]

New, new official trailer:





I never thought I could be so apathetic about so many lightsabers.

[Infernally Clay]

New, new official trailer:





I never thought I could be so apathetic about so many lightsabers.

I think the new trailer does a good job of establishing the story. A former padawan turned assassin hunting down Jedi and her former master taking it upon himself to stop her is a legitimately good setup.

The show has an advantage, as well, in that these are all new characters so technically the only Jedi that can't die is Yoda, if he's in the show at all. That gives the show stakes it otherwise wouldn't have if it was in a more established era.

[Trafalgar]

New, new official trailer:





I never thought I could be so apathetic about so many lightsabers.

I think it's a better trailer than the first one. At least it gives us an idea what the show is about.

[Errorname]

The show has an advantage, as well, in that these are all new characters so technically the only Jedi that can't die is Yoda, if he's in the show at all. That gives the show stakes it otherwise wouldn't have if it was in a more established era.

I do think some of these characters were established in High Republic stuff, so they may play lighter with the toys they didn't make, but I don't think any of them have proper 'canon' fates set in stone.

[ecarden]

I think the new trailer does a good job of establishing the story. A former padawan turned assassin hunting down Jedi and her former master taking it upon himself to stop her is a legitimately good setup.

The show has an advantage, as well, in that these are all new characters so technically the only Jedi that can't die is Yoda, if he's in the show at all. That gives the show stakes it otherwise wouldn't have if it was in a more established era.

I'd tend to agree, but for two things:

Spoiler

Show

1) The show, and this hopefully is just hype/advertising, really pushes the notion of some big threat/tipping point/whatever, which is basically the opposite of what I'm hoping for in something set in the High Republic. Pushing the threat level up almost inherently means either playing down the Republic/Order's power, or handing them a massive idiot ball. It also makes me concerned it will continue modern Star Wars' total unwillingness to grapple with the challenges of actually having power and authority.

2) Again, hopefully this is just advertising, but I'm concerned that the words all consist of Jedi: We must accomplish this task; Presumable Antagonist: Here's all the stuff that's wrong with the Jedi Order...which is something I'm already pretty bored with. And especially that bit in the text about 'no one being safe from the truth' sets off a lot of alarm bells for me.

But we'll see...

[Sapphire Guard]

I'd tend to agree, but for two things:

Spoiler

Show

1) The show, and this hopefully is just hype/advertising, really pushes the notion of some big threat/tipping point/whatever, which is basically the opposite of what I'm hoping for in something set in the High Republic. Pushing the threat level up almost inherently means either playing down the Republic/Order's power, or handing them a massive idiot ball. It also makes me concerned it will continue modern Star Wars' total unwillingness to grapple with the challenges of actually having power and authority.

2) Again, hopefully this is just advertising, but I'm concerned that the words all consist of Jedi: We must accomplish this task; Presumable Antagonist: Here's all the stuff that's wrong with the Jedi Order...which is something I'm already pretty bored with. And especially that bit in the text about 'no one being safe from the truth' sets off a lot of alarm bells for me.

But we'll see...

Pretty much. 'Complain about the Jedi' is the easy, lazy path, and by now it's pretty well trodden. Either it's empty marketing speak that doesn't go anywhere, or it does go somewhere and where it goes is around in circles again.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard
'Complain about the Jedi' is the easy, lazy path, and by now it's pretty well trodden.

Once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your franchise.

[Mechalich]

Once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your franchise.

Well, in some sense, the Jedi are all that there is.

Star Wars is an aggressively, deliberately, generic franchise. The OT strips everything away in Lucas' effort to get at the Campbellian 'monomyth' concept to the point that the main entities in the franchise are referred to as 'The Empire,' 'The Rebellion' and 'The Republic.' Even most of the combat is just WWII presentation with some creative space opera skins. As such, there really isn't all that much to talk about regarding these elements in and of themselves. We can talk about how they are deployed, ex. how the ST misuses the New Republic, but as basic archetypes they aren't intrinsically very interesting in their own right. This, I should note, is often to the franchise's benefit. The Empire, especially, is even more menacing and horrific because of how aggressively generic it is.

The Jedi are different. They are a distinctive thing created by Lucas by mashing together various historical militant religious orders with a big helping of Akira Kurosawa, and then sticking it all into a space opera. It's pretty much the only element in Star Wars that is distinct to the franchise (droids, which though a big deal in 1977, were so relentlessly co-opted and explored by other franchises as varied as Star Trek and Transformers, quickly lost any distinctiveness).

As such, while it is absolutely possible to tell great Star Wars stories without Jedi involvement, such as Andor, such stories are aggressively generic (and again, in the case of something like Andor, this is to the good, making it more universal makes it better) and tend to lack anything specific to Star Wars to talk about. Andor has a great deal to say about totalitarianism, but hardly any of it is specific to a galaxy far, far away.

The Jedi are also major source of discussion because everything surrounding them is so muddled and weird. They lack easy defaults. 'What would the Empire do if X?' is easily answered by picking some real historical tyrannical regime that encountered that situation and simply copying the answer. If similar questions are asked regarding the Jedi, no such obvious answers emerge. Heck, the entire PT is basically 'What would the Jedi Order to if Anakin Skywalker?' And while those films offer an answer, if fails to satisfy for a variety of reasons and therefore discussions continue forever.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think the new trailer does a good job of establishing the story. A former padawan turned assassin hunting down Jedi and her former master taking it upon himself to stop her is a legitimately good setup.

The show has an advantage, as well, in that these are all new characters so technically the only Jedi that can't die is Yoda, if he's in the show at all. That gives the show stakes it otherwise wouldn't have if it was in a more established era.

Once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your franchise.

Will this be in theaters? I do not subscribe to Disney+

[Zevox]

Will this be in theaters? I do not subscribe to Disney+

It's a show, not a movie, so no.

[Palanan]

I dropped Disney+ after the trainwreck that was Ahsoka. Not seeing anything here to make me regret that.

If there’s a chorus of exaltation this time next month, …I’ll keep it in mind. But not holding my breath.

[Hackmandu]

Well, in some sense, the Jedi are all that there is.

Star Wars is an aggressively, deliberately, generic franchise. ... (snip)

I think this is probably the best way I've seen it put, and would largely agree with you, except to say that at this point the Jedi are no longer a distinctive thing. The lightsaber has been endlessly copied or imitated both in fan-film and other original works; the Force is so embedded in pop culture as to be many people's joke answer when questioned about their religion; the idea of a monastic order of mystic knights is so common now as to be an expected part of many fantasy/sci-fi settings. Star Wars' over-reliance on Jedi stories was understandable and even worked pretty well for a long time, but focusing on them to the detriment of the rest of the setting has turned them into yet another generic fixture, with the side drawback of horribly mangling their own lore as so many different writers chime in on what Jedi even are or how they work. That's why Rogue One and shows like the Mandalorian and later Andor were so critically successful for a while, they proved you could absolutely focus on other parts of the setting ... IF you told a compelling and interesting story to go along with it. The over-reliance on Force-users have taken the magic out of magic, but seeing the life of a quasi-religious bounty hunter or exploring what life under the Empire is truly like for most sentients was largely untrod ground.

What I'm trying to say (and probably failing to get across as well) is that Star Wars absolutely was made to be generic, but if it's going to continue as a franchise it needs to fill in the world like those two shows did (I should say, like Mandalorian seasons 1 and most of 2 did), not just focus on Force-user stories and pre-existing characters. Jedi are no longer its one true distinctive thing, because Jedi have become too generic for it, especially in a pop culture already saturated with superheroes.

[Mordar]

What I'm trying to say (and probably failing to get across as well) is that Star Wars absolutely was made to be generic, but if it's going to continue as a franchise it needs to fill in the world like those two shows did (I should say, like Mandalorian seasons 1 and most of 2 did), not just focus on Force-user stories and pre-existing characters. Jedi are no longer its one true distinctive thing, because Jedi have become too generic for it, especially in a pop culture already saturated with superheroes.

I think this is an interesting take.

How is it more or less generic/specific than Star Trek? Blade Runner's future?

How much is it's genericness is related to having set norms and tropes? Did it "become the baseline"?

How much of it's genericness is related to intentional post-acquisition, finance-influenced design? A homogenization effect?

- M

[warty goblin]

Star Was is by design pretty generic, it's just a generic version of a genre of sci-fi that, outside of Star Wars itself, hasn't really existed in 50 years.

Lucas wanted to do a Flash Gordon movie but couldn't get the rights, so right there its genesis is as a serial numbers filed off version of a different thing. But Flash Gordon is a clone of a clone of A Princess of Mars because any time you hit a desert planet with weird wildlife it's an Edgar Rice Burroughs clone, and indeed a lot of Star Wars is an ERB clone*. This is not terribly obscure. Because most people don't read lots of eighty year old pulp sci-fi, what is somewhat more obscure now is that there was a giant market absolutely packed full of ERB knockoffs, to the point where copy-pastes the ERB versions of Mars, Venus, and the rest of the solar system formed an implied common setting, the way you can have elves and dwarves in a fantasy game today, and everybody knows how those work. This was really big through the 1940s and 50s, tapered off in the 60s, and was absolutely crushed in the 70s when we started landing spaceships on Mars and Venus and discovered that there was absolutely zero chance of weird dying canal cities and steamy jungles filled with monsters and hot native princesses.

Star Wars is basically that, spread across a galaxy**. If you had thumbed through Amazing Stories anytime between like 1930 and its release date, Star Wars would have been very familiar. There's obviously original elements, the Force is a clear transplant of 1970s spiritualism definitely lacking from genre material from the 40s and 50s***, and the details are original to Lucas, but at the core it's a really big budget version of decades of pulp novels and short stories and terrible movies nobody has watched in decades.

Really, one of the reasons I think Disney has struggled to get Star Wars to feel like Star Wars is that it doesn't have this genre in recent memory to draw upon. Rather, the only reference text for Star Wars is... Star Wars. Which is why it feels like the franchise is disappearing up its own sphincter, there's just nothing else around Star Wars like Star Wars so Star Wars just copies Star Wars in a self referential loop as Star Wars is slowly stripped of all meaning by Star Wars Star Wars Star Wars Star Wars Star Wars.

*This becomes 100% overt by the time you get to Geonosis in the PT, the Geonosians just, like, are Tharks.

**Not an idea original to Lucas, Leigh Brackett, who wrote the first draft of the Empire Strikes Back screenplay, did exactly the same thing with The Ginger Star in 1974, even porting her hero Eric John Stark from the solar system to the galactic stage. This doesn't line up with the universe implied by the original Stark stories from the late forties/early fifties, or even solve the scientific plausibility problem because Stark still hails from the planet Mercury. Don't think about it, daddy's gotta choke out this mutant fishman now.

***Which isn't to say these stories were devoid of the supernatural, far from it. They generally lacked the mystical or spiritual overtones of the Force however.