Star Wars: The Acolyte official trailer

[Cazero]

Do we need a story about a functional Jedi Order?

It would be a cop show in Star Wars. Presumably, Jedis don't intervene that often, but when they do it would be a big deal.
How do criminals keep their activities in an universe with superpowered cops? What kind of tricks does organised crime use against Force interrogation?
It can be made. It can be cool.

[Murk]

Hate watching is still also watching. Why would I waste my valuable time and emotional energy on something I hate? Why would I reward the people who made it with money and success? Because in the only metric that matters to a company (number go up) a hate watch is worth exactly as much as a love watch.

That's why my main form of consuming Star Wars media these days is by reading other people's discussions about it on internet forums. That way I don't have to actually watch it, don't have to pay money for it, but can still satisfy my nostalgia-fueled curiosity.

So I'm not looking forward to the new show, but I am looking forward to the episode summaries and opinions (and general sense of exhaustion) that you will all bring me in this thread!

[Infernally Clay]

An organization that has never been functional and is fundamentally broken, yet somehow lasts thousands and thousands of years, does not seem to make any logical sense to me.

"Lasts thousands of years" is kinda misleading. Yes the Jedi Order has existed in one form or another for thousands of years but, like Baylan Skoll says, it's a cycle. The Sith wipe the Jedi out, the Jedi wipe the Sith out, the Sith wipe the Jedi out, the Jedi wipe the Sith out... this being repeated ad nauseum for thousands of years. As long as one exists, so must the other. If Rey brings back the Jedi Order, for example, someone else will inevitably bring back the Sith too.

In fact the only reason the Jedi believed they had finally defeated the Sith once and for all is because a thousand years ago the Sith changed tactics, limiting themselves to two members at any given time and focusing on sowing political unrest, accruing wealth and influence and undermining the Jedi Order because apparently the Sith didn't like each other any more than they liked the Jedi and this would effectively deal with both.

The Jedi Order being counterproductive and nonfunctional because it exists solely to enforce, as Palpatine so eloquently put it, a narrow and dogmatic view does make sense. They don't need to do what they do well, they just need to convince enough people to agree with them and that isn't hard for a religion of space wizards that can point to another religion of space wizards BUT EVIL and say "these guys are why you need us".

[Sapphire Guard]

What does 'functional' and 'dysfunctional' look like? In terms of Jedi not following the chain, what we mostly get is the likes of Ahsoka, who looks and acts exactly like a Jedi.

The alterative would be the Jedi successfully being destroyed, which means the Sith rise to power unopposed. Yay?

The endless cycle stuff is meta excuse for Lucasfilm writers endlessly writing red v blue fights. The thing about it is, they'll still need to to do red v blue lightsabre fights, so instead of jediv Sith, you just end up with technically not a Jedi v technically not a Sith, a la the Ahsoka show. Gewtting rid of Jedi and Sith does nothing about the cycle, because that's driven by lucasfilm's meta reasons and has nothing to do with Jedi and Sith beliefs or practices.

[Peelee]

"Lasts thousands of years" is kinda misleading. Yes the Jedi Order has existed in one form or another for thousands of years but, like Baylan Skoll says, it's a cycle. The Sith wipe the Jedi out, the Jedi wipe the Sith out, the Sith wipe the Jedi out, the Jedi wipe the Sith out... this being repeated ad nauseum for thousands of years. As long as one exists, so must the other. If Rey brings back the Jedi Order, for example, someone else will inevitably bring back the Sith too.

In fact the only reason the Jedi believed they had finally defeated the Sith once and for all is because a thousand years ago the Sith changed tactics, limiting themselves to two members at any given time and focusing on sowing political unrest, accruing wealth and influence and undermining the Jedi Order because apparently the Sith didn't like each other any more than they liked the Jedi and this would effectively deal with both.

The Jedi Order being counterproductive and nonfunctional because it exists solely to enforce, as Palpatine so eloquently put it, a narrow and dogmatic view does make sense. They don't need to do what they do well, they just need to convince enough people to agree with them and that isn't hard for a religion of space wizards that can point to another religion of space wizards BUT EVIL and say "these guys are why you need us".

An organization that has never been functional and is fundamentally broken, yet somehow lasts keeps returning after being wiped out time and again for thousands and thousands of years, does not seem to make any logical sense to me.

In fact, that makes even less sense. Also, citation requested on "The Sith wipe the Jedi out, the Jedi wipe the Sith out, the Sith wipe the Jedi out, the Jedi wipe the Sith out...", if you don't mind.

Also, everything Sapphire Guard just said.

[ArmyOfOptimists]

I'd like to tack on to Peelee and Sapphire that I, personally, would be fine with the suggested depiction of a Jedi Order that was less formal and more of a loose fraternity of wandering do-gooders. I think that would work fine, but we've never actually seen that either, aside from the OT era where it's been forced on them and every Jedi seems desperate to rebuild the institutions.

As the canon stands, neither the Jedi nor the Sith make any sense to keep resurfacing as they are for thousands of years. The Sith are actually even worse than the Jedi because the Rule of Two is beyond stupid. There's little more that two Sith can accomplish that one can't, and taking an apprentice into your might-makes-right religion who knows most of your secrets just guarantees one of you will murder the other before seeing your plans to the end. At least if you were training a bunch of apprentices you'd have a small army of powerful minions and could play them off each other to stall the murder out. It'd also make for a better story. Please give me a show about a Sith coven where a bunch of competing acolytes are scheming under the tutelage of their mysterious and aloof master.

[Sapphire Guard]

I'd like to tack on to Peelee and Sapphire that I, personally, would be fine with the suggested depiction of a Jedi Order that was less formal and more of a loose fraternity of wandering do-gooders. I think that would work fine, but we've never actually seen that either, aside from the OT era where it's been forced on them and every Jedi seems desperate to rebuild the institutions.

Why would this be better? They might be better at dealing with small gangs of bandits, but would be pretty much powerless against any of the galaxy's big, medium, or even fairly minor players, would be very vulnerable as soon as someone like Jabba put a big bounty on Jedi scalps, and could do pretty much nothing against someone like Palpatine rising to power.

Please give me a show about a Sith coven where a bunch of competing acolytes are scheming under the tutelage of their mysterious and aloof master.

I think that's part of the pitch for acolyte, so you may be in luck.

[Infernally Clay]

An organization that has never been functional and is fundamentally broken, yet somehow lasts keeps returning after being wiped out time and again for thousands and thousands of years, does not seem to make any logical sense to me.

I don't see why. It's an ideal and those just do not die. The Jedi had disappeared from the galaxy for half a century and yet even Rey had still heard of them and wanted to become one. The Jedi Order will always survive in one form or another. The Sith are basically the same too. They persevere.

In fact, that makes even less sense. Also, citation requested on "The Sith wipe the Jedi out, the Jedi wipe the Sith out, the Sith wipe the Jedi out, the Jedi wipe the Sith out...", if you don't mind.

Also, everything Sapphire Guard just said.

It was Baylan Skoll that said it, in Ahsoka. I can't remember the exact words but the gist of it was that the Jedi and Sith keep taking turns wiping each other out, creating a cycle that has lasted thousands of years and he would see it end. He also said he missed the idea of the Jedi Order but not the hypocrisy and corruption that plagued it in its last years.

[Peelee]

I don't see why. It's an ideal and those just do not die. The Jedi had disappeared from the galaxy for half a century and yet even Rey had still heard of them and wanted to become one. The Jedi Order will always survive in one form or another. The Sith are basically the same too. They persevere.

By this logic, the Republic and the Empire will both rise and fall continuously, even keeping to the same names, and they will always survive in one form or another and persevere.

I'm sorry, I don't buy it. That's just bad writing.

It was Baylan Skoll that said it, in Ahsoka.

You'll forgive me if I don't take the self-serving ad hoc justification of the villain, who explicitly does villainous things to further his own interests, as absolute truth.

[Mordar]

An organization that has never been functional and is fundamentally broken, yet somehow lasts thousands and thousands of years, does not seem to make any logical sense to me.

Then again, i don't think any of the explorations of the Jedi in the vast majority of prequel stories, both Legends and Canon, have been particularly good, so maybe that's a me issue.

I think that we might be tainted by the teller, here...I believe it plausible that the anti-establishment types are running the establishment, so anything as ordered and rigorous as an "Order" will suffer from the "history is written by the victors" syndrome. Call to mind certain real world things we don't talk about here. Like Bruno.

It is kind of like the story where the new frontier needs the rough-and-ready frontierspeople in order to exist, but then wants to be rapidly shed the image of "rough" and thus wants to shove those people aside and write them off as uncivilized hooligans and vagabonds.

Re: Rogue Jedi
I think that there have been several non-Star Wars stories where agencies of Law and Good have intentionally fostered a core of "rogue agents" who get certain stuff done. There is, I think, great wisdom in that...you have an effective arm based on cleaving to Law and Order, and an effective arm cleaving from Law and Order. It is just about making sure the rogues only bend the right rules and don't break too many.

- M

[Infernally Clay]

By this logic, the Republic and the Empire will both rise and fall continuously, even keeping to the same names, and they will always survive in one form or another and persevere.

I'm sorry, I don't buy it. That's just bad writing.

You mean the Republic that has existed in one form or another for twenty five thousand years? I honestly don't know what to say. There have been multiple Sith Empires over the last five thousand years, too.

Baylan Skoll wasn't making it up. This has been going on for thousands of years.

You'll forgive me if I don't take the self-serving ad hoc justification of the villain, who explicitly does villainous things to further his own interests, as absolute truth.

I don't know what there is for you to not to believe. He is simply paraphrasing what we already know.

If you want to ignore Star Wars canon that's up to you but it doesn't change that the Jedi and Sith fought pretty much nonstop for about four thousand years, a cycle of the Jedi winning then the Sith winning then the Jedi winning over and over again until the Jedi seemingly triumphed over the Sith for the last time one thousand years ago.

Except they didn't really triumph over the Sith, because the Sith simply adapted and changed their approach. After a thousand years of machinations and manipulations the Sith successfully gained control of the Galactic Republic, vilified the Jedi Order and destroyed both.

What is it exactly about any of this that you don't believe happened?

[Peelee]

You mean the Republic that has existed in one form or another for twenty five thousand years?

OK, so we're going with the 25,000 year version? Just wanted to make sure. Because great! How many times did that Republic be completely decimated over those 25,000 years?

If you want to ignore Star Wars canon that's up to you but it doesn't change that the Jedi and Sith fought pretty much nonstop for about four thousand years, a cycle of the Jedi winning then the Sith winning then the Jedi winning over and over again until the Jedi seemingly triumphed over the Sith for the last time one thousand years ago.

Yeah, with the Sith only being decimated by themselves and then being completely destroyed a thousand years later.

Seems like the "cycle" is broken already. Though calling it a "cycle" is pretty loose, if you ask me. And, again, large swaths of that were just bad writing. As I've already said.

[Sapphire Guard]

Curiously, Baylon is unable to identify what the hypocrisy he's complaining about is, or how he plans to end the cycle.

[warty goblin]

There's a compelling idea in the repeating cycle, its just that I don't think Star Wars is remotely well suited to explore it.

If you have a repeating cycle like that, you have arrived at what can be called the end of history. But instead of a steady state eternity of freedom or tyranny, the end is a distribution with some average wait time between changing from freedom to oppression and back. But the next transition will always occur, freedom decays, tyranny is toppled, and it starts again.

The thing is this is huge view SF. Like, the entire Foundation series is basically trying to reduce a single freedom/ tyranny (or order/chaos) transition cycle. You can still have heroics, trying to maintain or revert to the freedom state is preferable to the tyranny state, but they are extremely local heroics on the timescales where this matters. You are conditionally heroic, on the margin you don't matter at all, because the cycle will swallow your triumphs and failures.

But the sort of hero saves the day story is more or less contractually obligated to do can't really do much with this because it lacks the sort of huge view, nearly eternal characters that could meaningfully explore and interact with such a cycle. Yoda is what, 800 years old? Thats not nearly enough time.

The other problem is that the quasi- superheroics of Disney SW really want us to think of the character actions as being super duper ultra important, which doesn't work I the true effect is altering the cycle time by like 6 months. And to be fair, Lucas actually gave us that, Luke redeems Anakin, Anakin destroys the Sith. It's only the fan insistence on more SW that requires the cycle which in turn ultimately robs the heroics of their meaning. If you want meaning, the story has to end. Or change so much it effectively ends. You can have space adventures after Return of the Jedi, but they have to be fundamentally different, and then the fans will riot because it isn't Star Wars.

[Rodin]

It would be a cop show in Star Wars. Presumably, Jedis don't intervene that often, but when they do it would be a big deal.
How do criminals keep their activities in an universe with superpowered cops? What kind of tricks does organised crime use against Force interrogation?
It can be made. It can be cool.

A knight with magical powers that can sense disturbances in the Force. That sounds awfully like a Paladin to me. The Jedi mix in some Eastern mysticism to it, but you could easily do an episodic show about a Jedi on quest. He arrives at an area because he felt a disturbance in the Force, spends an episode or two investigating, then fights the bad guys while doling out Jedi wisdom to the peaceful villagers/sidekick of the week. Sprinkle in some foreshadowing for a bigger villain to fight at the end of the season and you have yourself a show.

The formula is nothing new, much like...well, everything in Star Wars. But for some reason there always needs to be the galaxy at stake, along with Sith to defeat. Smaller scale stories can be just as exciting, and would work within the framework of a functional Jedi council. The Jedi council exist, and they're doing what they're supposed to do. They just aren't here. That's what our hero Jedi has come for.

[Mordar]

A knight with magical powers that can sense disturbances in the Force. That sounds awfully like a Paladin to me. The Jedi mix in some Eastern mysticism to it, but you could easily do an episodic show about a Jedi on quest. He arrives at an area because he felt a disturbance in the Force, spends an episode or two investigating, then fights the bad guys while doling out Jedi wisdom to the peaceful villagers/sidekick of the week. Sprinkle in some foreshadowing for a bigger villain to fight at the end of the season and you have yourself a show.

The formula is nothing new, much like...well, everything in Star Wars. But for some reason there always needs to be the galaxy at stake, along with Sith to defeat. Smaller scale stories can be just as exciting, and would work within the framework of a functional Jedi council. The Jedi council exist, and they're doing what they're supposed to do. They just aren't here. That's what our hero Jedi has come for.

Right, this is the part they need to pull back on, in my opinion. Smaller scale stories can be *more* exciting, not just as exciting.

And the bad guys don't always need to be Sith. It's a big galaxy out there...

- M

[ArmyOfOptimists]

Why would this be better? They might be better at dealing with small gangs of bandits, but would be pretty much powerless against any of the galaxy's big, medium, or even fairly minor players, would be very vulnerable as soon as someone like Jabba put a big bounty on Jedi scalps, and could do pretty much nothing against someone like Palpatine rising to power.

It'd essentially work like the way the Witchers do in Sapkowski's famous series, just with less gloom and grit. Given that the Jedi were heavily based on Eastern Ronin and wuxia, it'd fit much better to have small independent Jedi Temples that each value different aspects of the force. All committed to doing good, but interpreting the mission in their own way. Like the Bantha Temple might be about fostering community and thus the members embed themselves in growing towns to support and defend them, while the Temple of Harmony considers all life connected through the Force and thus killing is the ultimate sin, so they eschew use of lightsabers and lethal techniques entirely. Another might act more like the Jedi we're familiar with, rushing to be proactive in stopping threats. I think that'd give us a canvas where we could have multiple Jedi characters with clear values that don't all look and act the same.

A decentralized Jedi wouldn't necessarily be better for stopping galaxy-wide threats, but we probably don't need to see more stories about superweapons and empires for a while either. Mostly I want to break the terrible canon where almost all the Jedi dress and act as close to Old Obi-Wan as possible. It also fits better. The galaxy is huge and the Jedi are as much a religion as anything else. A religion doesn't stick around for thousands of years without fracturing into a multitude of different branches.

I think that's part of the pitch for acolyte, so you may be in luck.

Sadly, the synopsis of The Acolyte seems to indicate there's only one Sith Acolyte. Though, we could see flashbacks of how she was chosen.

[Peelee]

Right, this is the part they need to pull back on, in my opinion. Smaller scale stories can be *more* exciting, not just as exciting.

Hear hear! One of my favorite movies (which i dont shut up about and bring up every chance i get), In Bruges, is pretty much just a story of three guys snd death. None of the major moral choices the men make really affect anyone in any meaningful or significant way. It just the emotions and morals and ethics between the three characters. It's incredibly small scale. And it's fantastic.

Star Wars doesn't need to ve massive, large-scale, ever-bigger stakes. That's basically Marvel, where there's a threat to New York, no the country, no the world, no the galaxy, no all of life itself, etc etc etc. I don't care about swatting a lightsaber at the infinitely increasing threat. I care about the characters. That's why Andor was absolutely riveting while Kenobi and Ahsoka were slogs. The problem is Hollywood, like most corporate America, is more invested in immediate gain than longterm gain. It's all about the next quarter, and for the overall health of the product, we'll worry about it when we get to it. They're throwing so many resources at making a flash in the pan so they can say "we got it even brighter that time!" that they hardly spend anything for an actual fire which can last. And unsurprisingly, that hits diminishing returns a lot faster and makes more and more people care less and less as they make more flashes and less bonfires, because all they care about is the next flash.

[Infernally Clay]

Curiously, Baylon is unable to identify what the hypocrisy he's complaining about is, or how he plans to end the cycle.

The hypocrisy is self-evident, but yes it's a shame Ray Stevenson passed away because now we might never know what Baylan intended to do. All we can do is hypothesise, unless they recast anyway at which point we'll have to wait until the second season (whenever that comes out).

[Peelee]

The hypocrisy is self-evident, but yes it's a shame Ray Stevenson passed away because now we might never know what Baylan intended to do. All we can do is hypothesise, unless they recast anyway at which point we'll have to wait until the second season (whenever that comes out).

And assuming it's not cancelled, like Lucasfilm loves to do with it's projects of late.

[DavidSh]

There is a classic Chinese novel that opens: "The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide." (天下大勢．分久必合，合久必分)

It is entirely fitting with Star Wars's use of east Asian tropes that the history of the Jedi and the Sith follows this pattern.

[Peelee]

There is a classic Chinese novel that opens: "The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide." (天下大勢．分久必合，合久必分)

It is entirely fitting with Star Wars's use of east Asian tropes that the history of the Jedi and the Sith follows this pattern.

Just as a reminder, I didn't take any issue with the idea that they rise and fall and re-rise constantly. I took issue with that they rise and fall and re-rise constantly while being completely inept.

An organization that has never been functional and is fundamentally broken, yet somehow lasts thousands and thousands of years, does not seem to make any logical sense to me.

Then again, i don't think any of the explorations of the Jedi in the vast majority of prequel stories, both Legends and Canon, have been particularly good, so maybe that's a me issue.

I also take issue with bad writing, but that's almost part and parcel for SW. Almost.

[ecarden]

It was Baylan Skoll that said it, in Ahsoka. I can't remember the exact words but the gist of it was that the Jedi and Sith keep taking turns wiping each other out, creating a cycle that has lasted thousands of years and he would see it end.

Except this cycle doesn't actually exist, especially at the moment he's at. The Sith are dead. The Emperor has not returned, yet. What happened was the Republic and Jedi won for a thousand years. The Sith and Empire won for twenty and now they're dead. That's not a cycle--that's a blip! Now, we know that the Republic will only last for ~30 years and then the new Empire will only last for ~1, which admittedly sure looks like a rapidly accelerating cycle from the outside (next New Republic only lasts a month! Soon we'll be cycling between governments multiple times a second!) but from his point in time...there's not really any cycle to talk about.

It's nonsensical.

And sure, you can talk about prior canon and previous Sith-Jedi conflicts--but (1) it's not clear any of that is still canon and (2) he doesn't reference that and there's no reason to imagine he knows about it, assuming it even still is canon. Seriously, how much do you know about conflicts that happened a thousand years ago, let alone the previously mentioned 25 thousand years ago? The 'cycle' he mentions simply doesn't exist, except insofar as he is taking action to try to bring it about by bringing back Thrawn!

[Mechalich]

Just as a reminder, I didn't take any issue with the idea that they rise and fall and re-rise constantly. I took issue with that they rise and fall and re-rise constantly while being completely inept.

They aren't completely inept in those other conflicts though. In fact, they're undefeated. In all prior major galactic conflicts between light side and dark side the Jedi Order always won, eventually.

The PT-Era Jedi Order vs. the Banite Sith is the only time the Jedi Order loses to the Sith. As such, while no version of the Order is likely to be perfect, the PT-Era Order is almost certainly the most flawed version there is. The problem, from a writing perspective, is that it's the one with the most detail. It's the one in the blasted PT after all. So everyone working on Star Wars models other versions of the Jedi on this most flawed representation. And, of course, no one can agree on precisely what those flaws are.

[Peelee]

They aren't completely inept in those other conflicts though. In fact, they're undefeated. In all prior major galactic conflicts between light side and dark side the Jedi Order always won, eventually.

The PT-Era Jedi Order vs. the Banite Sith is the only time the Jedi Order loses to the Sith. As such, while no version of the Order is likely to be perfect, the PT-Era Order is almost certainly the most flawed version there is. The problem, from a writing perspective, is that it's the one with the most detail. It's the one in the blasted PT after all. So everyone working on Star Wars models other versions of the Jedi on this most flawed representation. And, of course, no one can agree on precisely what those flaws are.

And this whole thing came from me pointing out to two people that their description of the Jedi as not functioning and fundamentally broken does not make sense. Because, as you say, they keep winning. You can't have an organization be bothy undefeated for millennia after millenia and also at the same time not be functioning.

I agree with you, the Jedi had a lengthy string of successes and constantly beat back the Sith (and what i wouldn't give for new canon to introduce any other groups, if they absolutely insist on shoving Force users into virtually every single story they can (Andor being the sole saving grace), then at least vary it the **** up a bit! As is, we have two dozen people that centralize around two clubs and that's the entirety of the whole damned galaxy, as far as most Star Wars writers are aware. Why even have a populated galaxy at all when the same small group of people end up involved in every major happening?

Anyway, I'm ranting off topic now. Point is, the idea that the Jedi were fundamentally broken and not functioning is at odds with the whole idea of their existence and prevalence, and would be horrible writing. Even worse than most of what is actually in canon and legends, and let me tell you, there have been some stinkers. But at least even those tended to make sense.

[dancrilis]

... if they absolutely insist on shoving Force users into virtually every single story they can (Andor being the sole saving grace), then at least vary it the **** up a bit! ...

In fairness Book of Bobo Fett didn't really have Force Users as part of the story (core story anyway), and Ashoka did use the Witches of Dathomir, and I would say The Bad Batch doesn't really have force users as part of the story either (there is an overarching plot which does seem to involve the force).

I could be wrong but I think your problem might be less with the Jedi and the Sith being in stories and and more with the fact that most of the stories being told aren't good.

[Infernally Clay]

And this whole thing came from me pointing out to two people that their description of the Jedi as not functioning and fundamentally broken does not make sense. Because, as you say, they keep winning. You can't have an organization be bothy undefeated for millennia after millenia and also at the same time not be functioning.

Of course you can. Just because the Jedi Order is great at stopping the Sith it doesn't mean they're good at everything else. That's the point, isn't it? The Jedi aren't s'posed to be warriors or generals but that's what they are perceived to be and it raises the very valid question of what purpose does the Jedi Order have when it isn't being an army?

Don't forget that a thousand years ago the Jedi were completely independent of the Republic and answered to no one but themselves and amassed a considerable military to defeat the Sith once and for all. The Republic was so scared of what the Jedi were capable of that they demanded the Jedi dismantle their military and directly answer to the Republic. The Ruusan Reformations were all about reigning the Jedi in.

The true test of the functionality of the Jedi Order isn't how well they fight the Sith but what they do when they're not fighting at all. Forget their performance during times of war, what about their performance during times of peace? How good are they at maintaining peace, how good are they at remaining neutral and objective, how good are they at maintaining deep connections with cultures all over the galaxy, how good are they at finding and training potential Jedi, that sort of thing.

'cause if the Jedi Order is only worth having around when there are Sith to fight then it might as well not exist at all and we saw what the Jedi Order became after a millennia of peace. We've seen the corruption and the hypocrisy and the blindness that plagued them. They retreated from the galaxy at large, leaving many communities and cultures feeling abandoned by the Jedi, and they couldn't even tell that the senator from Naboo was a Sith Lord.

In fairness Book of Bobo Fett didn't really have Force Users as part of the story

Funnily enough that Book of Boba Fett is actually a great example.

In Return of the Jedi Luke Skywalker showed up on Tatooine, walked into Jabba's Palace and killed the number one crime boss in the galaxy and then he just... left. Seven whole dang years later you've still got criminal organisations trying to fill the power vacuum Jabba the Hutt left behind and where is Luke during all of this? Has he even come back to Tatooine once since he killed Jabba? It's literally his home world and yet it does not appear Luke has any vested interest in preventing other criminal organisations from taking Jabba's place.

Much like the Jedi Order itself it would appear Luke Skywalker is great at killing bad guys but terrible at cleaning up the mess afterwards.

[BananaPhone]

Looks terrible and predictable, tbh.

The concept of a Sith Acolyte going through selection, training and then making her way through the galaxy as she enjoys her victories and stews in her defeats before eventually she's elevated to or takes the rank of Sith Lord, could be a bonzer series that's legit a fantastic watch. I mean think of all the trials she'd undergo, the friends, and foes (or both) she'd encounter, the places she'd visit, the battles she'd fight, the things she'd learn, how she'd revel in her victories and learn from her defeats, the way she'd grow from rank-and-file initiate to mover-and-shaker Sith Lord in the shadow empire of the hidden Sith.

Like really, think of a series that's both got great action and characters and writing, but also one that takes you on a philosophical moral journey through the Star Wars universe. You journey with this character who starts out at the lowest rungs of the Sith empire, they're not evil or corrupted yet but they don't want to die a nobody, we travel with them and explore the moral relativism surrounding their decisions until finally they commit the acts necessary to become a Sith Lord; we move past the relativism and get down to the simple distinction of good or evil, and they're evil. They might not have started off that way, but that's where they are now, and we watched that transformation as we're confronted with the reality of the Sith and who they are; they aren't misunderstood anti-heroes, they're an evil, power-hungry religious cult that'll stamp the boot on your face forever if they could, and we just accompanied a nobody's journey into their highest ranks.

That could be an amazing series.

...but it's not coming from these show-runners, creators or writers. Year after year. Show after show. Movie after movie. They produce little beyond disappointment and subpar quality media. They've had Star Wars for 10 years and they've produced 1 decent movie (Rogue One), 1 good show season (Mandalorian Season 1) and 1 great show season (Andor season 1). That's it. They had a pop cultural juggernaut whose movies were cultural events and in ten years they've turned it into a franchise whose TV shows struggle to crack 300k viewers an episode. Lucasfilm was built by geniuses and was inherited by morons, and I'm tired of pretending it wasn't.

Lucasfilm atm just needs to be completely purged and restocked with people who actually love the franchise and love telling good stories and are capable of doing so. Until then, I have 0 faith in new shows/movies Star Wars related.

That's all I have to say on the matter. I hope I'm wrong, but so far I rarely am with this franchise.

[Mechalich]

The concept of a Sith Acolyte going through selection, training and then making her way through the galaxy as she enjoys her victories and stews in her defeats before eventually she's elevated to or takes the rank of Sith Lord, could be a bonzer series that's legit a fantastic watch. I mean think of all the trials she'd undergo, the friends, and foes (or both) she'd encounter, the places she'd visit, the battles she'd fight, the things she'd learn, how she'd revel in her victories and learn from her defeats, the way she'd grow from rank-and-file initiate to mover-and-shaker Sith Lord in the shadow empire of the hidden Sith.

Like really, think of a series that's both got great action and characters and writing, but also one that takes you on a philosophical moral journey through the Star Wars universe. You journey with this character who starts out at the lowest rungs of the Sith empire, they're not evil or corrupted yet but they don't want to die a nobody, we travel with them and explore the moral relativism surrounding their decisions until finally they commit the acts necessary to become a Sith Lord; we move past the relativism and get down to the simple distinction of good or evil, and they're evil. They might not have started off that way, but that's where they are now, and we watched that transformation as we're confronted with the reality of the Sith and who they are; they aren't misunderstood anti-heroes, they're an evil, power-hungry religious cult that'll stamp the boot on your face forever if they could, and we just accompanied a nobody's journey into their highest ranks.

That could be an amazing series.

Emphasis on could be. You've just described the Sith Inquisitor storyline from SWTOR, and that story is...absolutely in the middle of the 8 SWTOR class stories (4th or 5th by most assessments). More importantly, even if such a story gets everything exactly right, 'descent into villainy' has real marketability problems. Star Wars live action TV comes with an extremely high floor to achieve profitability. Niche appeal simply isn't an option, the shows must aim for mass market appeal - it simply costs too much to make them otherwise. That's why Book of Boba Fett presented Boba as a warmed-over nice-guy crime boss - so his show could remain kid-friendly. Consider a show like Succession, a recent critical darling of a show that recently concluded on HBO. That show was barely popular enough to survive despite being set in the modern day. Port it over to Star Wars and it loses a giant pile of money.

Stories about character's slowly becoming monsters of their own making have been done in Star Wars, and even done well, but they aren't viable in live action TV.

...but it's not coming from these show-runners, creators or writers. Year after year. Show after show. Movie after movie. They produce little beyond disappointment and subpar quality media. They've had Star Wars for 10 years and they've produced 1 decent movie (Rogue One), 1 good show season (Mandalorian Season 1) and 1 great show season (Andor season 1). That's it. They had a pop cultural juggernaut whose movies were cultural events and in ten years they've turned it into a franchise whose TV shows struggle to crack 300k viewers an episode. Lucasfilm was built by geniuses and was inherited by morons, and I'm tired of pretending it wasn't.

This is an oddly weighted assessment. Lucasfilm, under George Lucas, produced three all-time great films (the OT), three at best meh films (the PT), and six seasons of TCW. That's literally it unless you want to start counting things like the made-for-TV Ewoks movies (this is a bad idea). So, sure, the film record is much better under Lucas, because the OT blows everything else out of the water, and the ST is a hideous abomination. That's fair.But in other genres, it's much more mixed. Animation-wise, Rebels and The Bad Batch can be put up against TCW just fine. Resistance was terrible but was also quickly canceled, displaying at least some awareness. Books, comics, and video games have both had highs and lows under Lucas and Disney, there's gold and dross alike to be found in both.

So that leaves the live-action TV, which has no apples-to-apples comparison with anything produced in the pre-Disney era, because Lucas thought it could not be done (and the one time they tried, with 1138, it got canceled in the pilot stage). At present there are 3 seasons of Mando, 1 season of Obi-Wan, 1 season of Boba Fett, 1 season of Ahsoka, and 1 season of Andor, 7 seasons total. That's 1 great (Andor), 2 good (Mand 1+2), 3 meh (Mando 3, Obi-Wan, and Boba), and 1 bad (Ahsoka). As far as things go, that's a pretty decent record. The problem is that the trajectory is downward, not that the actual productions have been disastrous too date.

[BananaPhone]

Emphasis on could be. You've just described the Sith Inquisitor storyline from SWTOR, and that story is...absolutely in the middle of the 8 SWTOR class stories (4th or 5th by most assessments). More importantly, even if such a story gets everything exactly right, 'descent into villainy' has real marketability problems. Star Wars live action TV comes with an extremely high floor to achieve profitability. Niche appeal simply isn't an option, the shows must aim for mass market appeal - it simply costs too much to make them otherwise. That's why Book of Boba Fett presented Boba as a warmed-over nice-guy crime boss - so his show could remain kid-friendly. Consider a show like Succession, a recent critical darling of a show that recently concluded on HBO. That show was barely popular enough to survive despite being set in the modern day. Port it over to Star Wars and it loses a giant pile of money.

Stories about character's slowly becoming monsters of their own making have been done in Star Wars, and even done well, but they aren't viable in live action TV.

The Sith Warrior storyline, by comparison, is considered one of the best, and it's a rise to power tale (it was so much fun I did it three times ). The Imperial Agent one, meanwhile, is considered the best. If you're placing the Inquisitor as 4th, then out of the 4 best stories, 3 of them are Imperial, where players are operatives of a fascist, oppressive theocracy. The Darth Bane novels were also well-received, particularly the first. If you create a TV series whose main character is someone being conscripted into the Sith Academy and undergoing their training and the season ending by completing it and heading out into the galaxy on behalf of their master/the empire, people will watch that for the sheer novelty alone - and if it's good, they'll stay and get invested in the characters, because the protagonist isn't the only one on screen as there is a cast of characters and events unfolding around them. It depends on the writers and creators, and as I've professed, I don't think that level of quality is in Lucasfilm atm.

I wrote responses to the rest of what you wrote, but it's a re-hash of the "is star wars terrible now?" argument that's been done to death, so I just left this in.