OOTS #1300 - The Discussion Thread

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm ignoring it as "predating when the Giant started treating the plot seriously".

Nice job ignoring Sunny. (not)

That's always a good take for the early strips, I think.

You might want to adjust your think, unless you dislike Sunny.

At least nominally, saving throws represent the element of random chance.

Saving throws incorporate three things:
1) Things did not quite go as planned (Caster PoV)
2) Things went better than planned (Victim PoV)
3) The Hand of Fate

[Provengreil]

To be fair, Soon wasn't Lawful Stupid either. It was stupid of Serini trying to use the dragon as one of her guards in the first place.

I'm not sure she actually made that decision, or more accurately may have been stuck with no better options. This was brought up in previous threads, but the timeline is a bit screwy in terms of Serini forcing Calder into a trap as a dungeon guardian with Soon's help (and Kraagor's, it took the six of them).

What this means is that Calder was imprisoned by all 6 scribblers before Serini created Kraagor's Tomb. Seeing as the Scribblers had to be here to make a gate, they probably overpowered Calder here and trapped him on the spot, and the Final Dungeon(some of it at least) already existed. It would explain the battle marks that were there before the current fight at least.

But once everyone broke up, Serini had one of the most dangerous beings she knew trapped here with no safe way to release him, even if she'd wanted to. I hope we get some more light on this sequence of events, it's probably tied into the breakup of the Scribblers.

[drDunkel]

I assumed he was knocked out.

I mean, Sunny is clearly not knocked out as they go "Oww!" for each bounce. I think the closed eye is more of a way to not let the antimagic mess with storytelling.

[Vikenlugaid]

I mean, Sunny is clearly not knocked out as they go "Oww!" for each bounce. I think the closed eye is more of a way to not let the antimagic mess with storytelling.

Yeah but at the end Sunny got all their eyes closed. I am pretty sure they are unconscious.

[KorvinStarmast]

It seems to me that the tail swipe hit Sunny so hard that he also took damage from the wall he bounced off of, and then from each of the "bonks" that happened as he traveled toward the bridge. FWIW, if you fall far enough and hit water, you might expect a bit of bludgeoning damage ... so the 'all eyes closed' seems to reflect him being knocked out.

[Tubercular Ox]

Nice job ignoring Sunny. (not)

You might want to adjust your think, unless you dislike Sunny.

Do you think Rich had Sunny's reappearance planned when he was writing strip #32? And/or, what obligation do you think Rich has to the early strips?

[Taragorn]

Do you think Rich had Sunny's reappearance planned when he was writing strip #32? And/or, what obligation do you think Rich has to the early strips?

I would think not. Rich I believe is on record having not even thought of the overall arc of the story after Xykon was defeated at the first gate until around strip 100. Sunny is awesome, but isn't a Checkhov's beholder. (Yes I said it, come at me WOTC!)

[Shining Wrath]

"Rich didn't have the story worked out before strip #100" is not at all the same as "Rich isn't reusing characters from prior to strip #100". Case in point: Team Evil.

So, he reaches back and grabs the adorable Sunny from early on. He can reuse the angsty goblin teenagers, too, if he wants.

[Metastachydium]

It seems to me that the tail swipe hit Sunny so hard that he also took damage from the wall he bounced off of, and then from each of the "bonks" that happened as he traveled toward the bridge. FWIW, if you fall far enough and hit water, you might expect a bit of bludgeoning damage ... so the 'all eyes closed' seems to reflect him being knocked out.

That's how I read it too. Note how all the eyes gradually close correlaters with the number of bonks that accumulate over the page.

Sunny is awesome, but isn't a Checkhov's beholder. (Yes I said it, come at me WOTC!)

Eh, you didn't capitalize it! It's just an English noun! Let 'em prove otherwise!

He can reuse the angsty goblin teenagers, too, if he wants.

…except they are all dead, horribly murdered by Elan.

[Coppercloud]

You might want to adjust your think, unless you dislike Sunny.

Oh, I absolutely adore them, make no mistake. But they were introduced in this book (and admittedly the last strip of Utterly Dwarfed, but they were invisible). The single-panel unnamed beho spherical aberration wasn't a proper introduction to their character.

My guideline is as follow:
- if a character/element has been introduced or mentioned in Dungeon crawlin' fools but wasn't mentioned again ever after, then it's probably an unimportant detail or is part of the early installment weirdness, when the comic hadn't found its tone and rules.
- if it has come up again, but some details have changed, then the most recent occurrence is correct and any inconsistency comes from the evolution of the comic.

For example, Banjo the clown has been referenced multiple times, but His ability to smite unbelievers has not. Indeed, it clashes with the way godhood is presented. But it isn't a plot hole and it can be safely ignored as a one-off gag. As for the healing potion in strip 8, its appearance tells us absolutely nothing about the effect of the bottle Vaarsuvius is holding, because the art has changed too much in 20 years.

[KorvinStarmast]

As for the healing potion in strip 8, its appearance tells us absolutely nothing about the effect of the bottle Vaarsuvius is holding, because the art has changed too much in 20 years.

Not buying what you are selling. I suppose We will discover soon enough.

[Vikenlugaid]

V has taken a lot of damage so drinking a healing potion is a good idea.
I don't remember 3.5 rules very well.so I ask: can V drink a potion and cast a spell in the same turn?

[Tzardok]

V has taken a lot of damage so drinking a healing potion is a good idea.
I don't remember 3.5 rules very well.so I ask: can V drink a potion and cast a spell in the same turn?

Generally no. Both actions cost a Standard Action (though some spells take longer), of which you only have one per turn. There are of course exceptions, for example if you Quickened a spell.

[bunsen_h]

It may depends on the potion's strength. A potion: cure light wounds may be red, a potion: cure serious moderate wounds orange, a potion: cure critical serious wounds green.

That would make some sense. And though it would make some narrative sense in the context of this world for a potion of type [X] to always be the same colour and in the same kind of vial, it doesn't necessarily have to be. I don't think one can necessarily identify a potion just by looking at it; that uncertainty was RAW in early versions of D&D. Different recipes for a given potion should exist, and I can't think of a good internal reason why vial shapes must be standardized in the absence of something like a mandate from a professional body. "This is a Potion of Feather Fall prepared according to ISO 31415 standards."

[Metastachydium]

That would make some sense. And though it would make some narrative sense in the context of this world for a potion of type [X] to always be the same colour and in the same kind of vial, it doesn't necessarily have to be. I don't think one can necessarily identify a potion just by looking at it; that uncertainty was RAW in early versions of D&D. Different recipes for a given potion should exist, and I can't think of a good internal reason why vial shapes must be standardized in the absence of something like a mandate from a professional body. "This is a Potion of Feather Fall prepared according to ISO 31415 standards."

Technically, in 3.5 one can identify a potion by looking at it. For a full minute. And succeeding on a DC 25 Spellcraft check. But it's possible!

[brian 333]

That would make some sense. And though it would make some narrative sense in the context of this world for a potion of type [X] to always be the same colour and in the same kind of vial, it doesn't necessarily have to be. I don't think one can necessarily identify a potion just by looking at it; that uncertainty was RAW in early versions of D&D. Different recipes for a given potion should exist, and I can't think of a good internal reason why vial shapes must be standardized in the absence of something like a mandate from a professional body. "This is a Potion of Feather Fall prepared according to ISO 31415 standards."

Only Lawful Alchemists utilize standardized bottles, ingredients, and recipes. Those on the chaotic side of the spectrum just cram stuff in a bottle and hope.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I hope that this final dungeon isn't so close to where Team Evil are that they can hear the fighting, figure out the direction, and create some kind of shortcut. I think it's quite unlikely, but...

I think one of the great unwritten rules of D&D is that fighting one group doesn't aggro the next.

[bunsen_h]

The original AD&D DMG says: "Potions are typically found in ceramic, crystal, glass, or metal flasks in enough quantity to provide one person with one complete dose so as to be able to achieve the effects which are given hereafter for each type of potion. Potion containers can be other than as described at your option. As a general rule they should bear no identifying marks, so that the players must sample from each container in order to determine the nature of the liquid. However, even a small taste should suffice to identify a potion in some way — even if just a slight urge. As Dungeon Master you should add a few different sorts of potions, both helpful and harmful, of such nature as to cause difficulties in identification. In addition, the same type of potion, when derived from different sources, might smell, taste, and look differently."

There could be a variety of interesting effects when potions were mixed, either externally or if one drank one potion while still under the effects of another. These ranged from explosions (1%) to working normally to one of the potion effects becoming permanent (1%). I gather that that's no longer the case, that potions are now basically spells-in-bottles.

[KorvinStarmast]

There could be a variety of interesting effects when potions were mixed, either externally or if one drank one potion while still under the effects of another. These ranged from explosions (1%) to working normally to one of the potion effects becoming permanent (1%). I gather that that's no longer the case, that potions are now basically spells-in-bottles.

Yes, although the 5e DMG does have a table for potion mixing with odd results for some rolls. Potion Miscibility

Spoiler: The table

Show

_d100 | Result
____01 | The mixture creates a magical explosion, dealing 6d10 force damage to the mixer and 1d10 force damage to each creature within 5 feet of the mixer.
_02–08 | The mixture becomes an ingested poison of the DM’s choice.
_09–15 | Both potions lose their effects.
_16–25 | One potion loses its effect.
_26–35 | Both potions work, but with their numerical effects and durations halved. A potion has no effect if it can’t be halved in this way.
_36–90 | Both potions work normally.
_91–99 | The numerical effects and duration of one potion are doubled. If neither potion has anything to double in this way, they work normally.
____00 |Only one potion works, but its effect is permanent. Choose the simplest effect to make permanent, or the one that seems the most fun. For example, a potion of healing might increase the drinker’s hit point maximum by 4, or oil of etherealness might permanently trap the user in the Ethereal Plane. At your discretion, an appropriate spell, such as dispel magic or remove curse, might end this lasting effect.

~5e DMG, Ch 7, WotC, 2014. ~

[No good @ names]

Only Lawful Alchemists utilize standardized bottles, ingredients, and recipes. Those on the chaotic side of the spectrum just cram stuff in a bottle and hope.

Alchemist’s Guild wants to know your location.

[ZorgAlmighty]

Do beholders continue to float even when unconscious?
Wouldn't immunity to Prone condition persist?

[Taragorn]

Not buying what you are selling. I suppose We will discover soon enough.

My prediction is that it is a potion of regeneration and it is green because the primary ingredient is troll blood. We will then spend 12 pages discussing if V was being disrespectful to Serini by doing so and if that was why they were out in the corridor to hide it, and whether or not the fact that is its hidden from Serini makes it more disrespectful, or less disrespectful.

[Quizatzhaderac]

If the potion was green, then the laws of narrative chromodynamic synthesis require it to be a composition of two specific ingredients.

[KorvinStarmast]

My prediction is that it is a potion of regeneration and it is green because the primary ingredient is troll blood. We will then spend 12 pages discussing if V was being disrespectful to Serini by doing so and if that was why they were out in the corridor to hide it, and whether or not the fact that is its hidden from Serini makes it more disrespectful, or less disrespectful.

A prediction that I cannot bet against.

If the potion was green, then the laws of narrative chromodynamic synthesis require it to be a composition of two specific ingredients.

Back to potion miscibility: when you mix two potions, sometimes the results are non-linear. (Caveat: based on AD&D 1e DMG and the 5e DMG, not sure how the 3.x edition DMG treats this).

[The MunchKING]

(Caveat: based on AD&D 1e DMG and the 5e DMG, not sure how the 3.x edition DMG treats this).

It doesn't. It tries to pretend that's not a thing and lets you cram as many potions as you want in there.

[Kish]

It's not "trying to pretend." If the rules don't say something then the rules don't say something.

Potions in 3.xed are low-level spells made into potions; there are no more restrictions on drinking a Potion of Reduce Person and a Potion of Haste than there are on having someone cast both Reduce Person and Haste on you.

(Don't know whether some other edition eliminates spell stacking. Indifferent to this lack of knowledge. 5ed remains unimportant.)

[KorvinStarmast]

It's not "trying to pretend." If the rules don't say something then the rules don't say something.

Potions in 3.xed are low-level spells made into potions; there are no more restrictions on drinking a Potion of Reduce Person and a Potion of Haste than there are on having someone cast both Reduce Person and Haste on you.

(Don't know whether some other edition eliminates spell stacking. Indifferent to this lack of knowledge. 5ed remains unimportant.)

Not true. Normal AD&D and D&D had mixing potions as a possible problem or a possible benefit. WotC removed that interesting feature in 3.x.
5e restored it.
But (in support of your point)

For the purposes of this strip, the 5e return to form has no effect.

PS: bunsen is who brought up Potion Miscibility in the first place.

And as for 5e being unimportant:

Spoiler: nope to your assertion

Show

that statement is massively incorrect.
1. It brought new people into the hobby and thus to this board.
2. It brought people back to the hobby, and to this board, who had left the hobby or both.

[Ruck]

And as for 5e being unimportant:

Spoiler: nope to your assertion

Show

that statement is massively incorrect.
1. It brought new people into the hobby and thus to this board.
2. It brought people back to the hobby, and to this board, who had left the hobby or both.

The subject of this conversation is how the potions work in this comic, and on that topic, 5e is certainly unimportant.

[Rinazina]

Calder eats BF.

I noticed just now that nobody is recalling that starshine is the heroine among polymorphed lizards, and no dragon should dare to eat those small reptiles when in front of them stays the Pointy Death Incarnate.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html

[Riftwolf]

Prediction: a future strip will be titled 'Long Term Consequences' and feature the return of Sunny and the Paladins at a critical juncture.